Pvp Balance - Thread Number X

[Feyangol]

Hey guys,

 

I know that there are already a lot threads about this topic, but I want to present a collection of my ideas how to fix this ... interesting PvP. I want to emphasize that all changes, which I suggest, are only for PvP. Nothing of the following stuff should be changed in PvE! I'm sorry for all mistakes in terms of vocabulary and grammar ;) .

 

 

1.) Base mechanics

 

a) Dmg Reduction

I want to make the PvP noob-friendlier without to take options from experienced PvP-players. The global dmg reduction on health and shields took options and unexperienced players are still hopeless inferior to 'Veterans'. It should be removed or at least be not that high (I think ~10-20% in general should be good value), but the current dmg reduction isn't usefull!

 

b) Mods

But what would be my suggestion to limit the superiority of Veterans to new players?

I think the mods are the problem here. You need a lot of time to get certain mods up to level 10 and they are so much more powerfull than on the lower ranks. In PvE no one cares about this problem because you don't need maxed mods to play it. But in PvP we have a massive injustice.

 

My answer:

Even if mods are higher than rank 5, in PvP they count only as a Rank 5 Mod.

So a maxed ranked 165%Dmg-Serration will count as much as a Rank5 90%Dmg-Serration.

 

c) Abilities in general

We have problems that certain abilities are useless and others overpowered, but I will come to this part of the ability balance later on. Now I want to talk about ability upgrades.

In my opinion they are just stupidly overpowered in Warframe. In PvE we know this as 'press 4 to win'. In PvP this is not an option. PvP should be about testing the skills of each player and not about press 4 to win. Upgrades like -75% energy costs are just crazy

 

This is the reason why I suggest to ban all mods which modify abilities! This does not include ability augments - only ability-mods.

Now we have base to compare all Warframe powers.

 

d) Procs and CC

CC abilities are incredible strong in this game because they have such a big duration (8 sec cold proc O.o) and a really heavy effect on the gameplay. They need to be nerfed, if you don't want to have a Status-Meta.

I will come to the Warframe abilities later on, but I will post here a general fix for Procs:

Excluding Poison and fire procs, all procs have -50% strength.

All Procs have a -50% duration.

 

A special Proc is in my opinion the reflex guard proc. Instead of blocking all dmg, it will block now 50% of the dmg and all incoming status effects if it procs (basicly like the other procs).

 

2.) Matchmaking

 

We need a system to seperate Veterans from Noobs. It is not funny and you will learn nothing if someone flies around the map who kills you without that you saw him once.

 

I want to suggest a system which subdivide the players only experience based. This system effects only random missions and not private ones:

 

The players are divided in 6 groups:

- Beginners (0-200 Conclave kills)

- Experienced Beginners (201-500 Conclave kills)

- Players (501-1000 Conclave kills)

- Experienced Players (1001-1500 Conclave kills)

- Advanced Players (1501-3000 Conclave kills)

- Veterans (3000+ Conclave kills)

 

Each group is only able to play with players 1 group above and under them.

So Veterans are only able to play with other Veterans and Advanced Players. Or if a Experienced Beginner start to search Players, the first not-Experienced Beginner will decide wether only Beginners and Experienced Beginners are able to enter the map or only Experienced Beginners and Players.

 

To fix the waiting period I would suggest an own 'conclave Planet'. If you open this 'planet' the game will suggest some missions which you can enter additional to open an own map (like in the friend list!).

 

3.) Weapons

 

a) Melee

Our first problem group.

At first we need to fix that 100% stagger in PvP. In my opionion it would not be fair to remove the stagger in general, it is just op with certain weapons. So here is my list how to change melee weapon stagger:

- Heavy Melee Weapon (Hammers and Axes) 100% melee stagger

- Scythes 66% Melee stagger

- Polearms, Staffs 50% Melee stagger

- Swords, Nikanas, Dual Swords, Daggers, Dual Daggers, Sword and Shield's, Glaives, Machetes, Fists, Sparrings, Claws, Tonfas, Gunblades, Whips 33% Melee Stagger

 

We need also to fix the dmg of some melee attacks. Spin-to-win is no way to go!

My suggestion is here a general -33% Dmg Reduction for Melee weapons (the current Melee dmg is not that bad ;) ) and -66% Dmg Reduction for Spin-Attacks, Directional Melee and Wallattacks.

 

b) AoE Weapons

I do not understand why this weapons were not nerfed ...

A 6,2m blast radius of a Penta is just stupidly op when it is able to oneshot.

I would love to see a -75% dmg reduction for all AoE Weapons (like Ogris, Penta, Opticor).

 

4.) Warframe Abilities

 

Well, I will try to complete this list with the time, but here are only first ideas. All change which I list here should be added to the current PvP version of the abilities.

Why do I nerf the dmg of all abilities? The current dmg on abilities is good. I want to have a similar amount ofter a rebalancing.

 

Ash

Shuriken

-33% Strength

 

Smoke Screen

Complete Invisibility (like with black energy) until the first attack (Melee attacks like directional melee or copter count as a attack).

 

Teleport

No change

 

Bladestorm

You are able to use 3/4/5/6 teleport in the next 15 sec. (You don't need a target to use the teleport, so you teleport to the point on which you are looking)

Your dmg is incresed by 10/20/30/40% during this time. Every time you get hit during this time, you will lose 1 teleport for dodge the hit. The effect ends when all teleports are used

 

Banshee

Sonic Boom

No change

 

Sonar

No change

 

Silence

No change

 

Sound Quake

Hmm, I really don't know. But it needs to be changed :P .

 

Ember

Fire Ball

-33% Strength

 

Accelerant

No change

 

Fire Blast

No change

 

World on Fire

-33% Strength

 

Excalibur

Slash Dash

-33% Strength

 

Radial Blind

No change

 

Super Jump

No change

 

Radial Javelin

-33% Strength

 

Frost

Freeze

-33% Strength

After a 0,5sec stun a normal cold proc

 

Ice Wave

-33% Strength

 

Snow Globe

-50% Slow

 

Avalanche

-33% Strength

No stun, only a normal cold proc

 

Hydroid

Tempest Barrage

No change

 

Tidal Surge

No change

 

Undertow

No change

 

Tentacle Swarm

-33% Strength

When you are hit by tentacle it will proc magnetic with a 50% chance, they stagger you with a 33% Chance and if you are not staggerd, your movement speed will be slown by 40% for the next 2 seconds.

 

Limbo

 

Loki

 

Mag

 

Mesa

Ballic Battery

No change

 

Shooting Gallery

No Change

 

Shatter Shield

-33% Strength

 

Peacemaker

New Effect: You gain +40% Dmg, +40% Speed, +40% Zoom, 1m Punch Through on all weapons and you don't need to reload during peacemaker. You are not able to move but you can do maneuvers like roll and flick flack.

 

Mirage

Hall of Mirrors

No change

 

Sleight of Hand

No change

 

Eclipse

-33% Strength

 

Prism

-33% Strength

 

Nekros

 

Nova

Null Star

-33% Strength

 

Antimatter Drop

No change (it will always oneshot, but it is really slow so you don't need to nerf it)

 

Worm Hole

No change

 

Molecular Prime

6 sec duration on the slow (30% is ok)

-33% Strength on the explosion

 

Nyx

Mind Control

The affected player sees all allies as enemies (red mark) and all enemies as friends (no mark). He is able to kill his allies now too (additional to the enemy).

 

Psychic Bolts

No change

 

Chaos

All effected players will see anyone as a enemy. Everything is red marked for them.

 

Absorb

-33% Strength

 

Oberon

 

Rhino

 

Saryn

 

Trinity

 

Valkyr

 

Vauban

 

Volt

 

Zephyr

Edited January 13, 2015 by Feyangol

[Auramaru]

I'm getting this vibe that you don't want anyone to die.

 

No, seriously: this layout... no one would EVER die.

 

Let me ask you this: Have you ever actually shot an UNMODDED gun at another player with max health and shield mods? It does nothing.  

And before you mention it: setting the health and shield mods to half-rank, and then shooting an UNMODDED gun does nothing.

Setting the health and shield mods to half-rank, and then shooting a half-modded gun breaks the shields.

 

Let me break this down for you:

Currently, in Conclave and in Dark Sectors, all damage dealt is divided (roughly) by 6.

 

BEFORE the damage nerf, newer players could also one-shot.  But they were out-matched through skill.  Now, you have to be both skilled and you have to have a catalyzed, 2-5 forma build in order to even compete.

 

THAT IS THE EFFECT OF PERCENT-DAMAGE-NERFS.

 

It is a band-aid fix and it made Conclave more difficult for newer players to compete.

I am just an angry old conclaver who used to post a bunch of amazing ideas on how to improve PVP, and instead I watched it get pile-drived straight into the mud. Thanks DE, thanks a lot.

Edited January 3, 2015 by AuraMau

[.Talia.]

This would make PvP extremely boring.

Edited January 11, 2015 by RexSol

[Feyangol]

I'm getting this vibe that you don't want anyone to die.

 

No, seriously: this layout... no one would EVER die.

 

Let me ask you this: Have you ever actually shot an UNMODDED gun at another player with max health and shield mods? It does nothing.  

And before you mention it: setting the health and shield mods to half-rank, and then shooting an UNMODDED gun does nothing.

Setting the health and shield mods to half-rank, and then shooting a half-modded gun breaks the shields.

 

Let me break this down for you:

Currently, in Conclave and in Dark Sectors, all damage dealt is divided (roughly) by 6.

 

BEFORE the damage nerf, newer players could also one-shot.  But they were out-matched through skill.  Now, you have to be both skilled and you have to have a catalyzed, 2-5 forma build in order to even compete.

 

THAT IS THE EFFECT OF PERCENT-DAMAGE-NERFS.

 

It is a band-aid fix and it made Conclave more difficult for newer players to compete.

I am just an angry old conclaver who used to post a bunch of amazing ideas on how to improve PVP, and instead I watched it get pile-drived straight into the mud. Thanks DE, thanks a lot.

You did not understand my point:

I'm for a removal of the global dmg reduction.

 

Additional to that removal I want put a limit on the strength of rank 10 mods (all rank 10 mods).

What will happen to the kill potential of a weapon when I reduce the dmg by 44%, but on the same time reduce the health and shield values by 44%?

Right, nothing.

The only difference is that 'endgame' begins 44% earlier.*

 

And that means that you don't need maxed stuff to play PvP = you are able to play PvP earlier (or 'as a Noob').

 

 

 

*But this is not completly correct, health and shield mods does not work exactly like the dmg mods. It would reduce the kill potential of a weapon a little bit (but definitly not that much like the current global dmg reduction).

Edited January 3, 2015 by Feyangol

[Auramaru]

You did not understand my point:

I'm for a removal of the global dmg reduction.

 

Additional to that removal I want put a limit on the strength of rank 10 mods (all rank 10 mods).

What will happen to the kill potential of a weapon when I reduce the dmg by 44%, but on the same time reduce the health and shield values by 44%?

Right, nothing.

The only difference is that 'endgame' begins 44% earlier.*

 

And that means that you don't need maxed stuff to play PvP = you are able to play PvP earlier (or 'as a Noob').

 

 

 

*But this is not completly correct, health and shield mods does not work exactly like the dmg mods. It would reduce the kill potential of a weapon a little bit (but definitly not that much like the current global dmg reduction).

Alright then, you ought to test this. 

 

You can fight without the global damage reduction in dojo duel room.  Keep in mind that EVEN WITH DAMAGE DIVIDED BY 6, people are able to one-shot...

Edited January 3, 2015 by AuraMau

[Feyangol]

Alright then, you ought to test this. 

 

You can fight without the global damage reduction in dojo duel room.  Keep in mind that EVEN WITH DAMAGE DIVIDED BY 6, people are able to one-shot...

I know, my vectis can do it, my latron with a special build too (both with 1 bullet).

My intention is to create a way how PvP-beginners can learn to play PvP without to grind a half year only for the mods and the equipement and to make Warframe Powers usefull, but not overpowered in PvP. A 'only-weapon PvP' is only the half of the potential of Warframe PvP.

 

 

If I find someone to test, I'll do it :P .

Edited January 3, 2015 by Feyangol

[-InV-igo95862]

I would prefer to remove all pre match determined weapons and mods. Instead make them buyable in a match like items are in dota like games. This way new and old players are balanced as they have access to similar equipment and conclave is removed allowing better match making centered around skill rather loadouts.

[Feyangol]

I would prefer to remove all pre match determined weapons and mods. Instead make them buyable in a match like items are in dota like games. This way new and old players are balanced as they have access to similar equipment and conclave is removed allowing better match making centered around skill rather loadouts.

If I wanted to play dota or LoL, I would play them.

I don't need a new Moba, there are already some really good ones. And I don't want to have exactly the same mechanics like in dota or LoL here in Warframe.

 

If you want competitive gameplay than play this games.

But Warframe should be about action and not about tactic ('how do I get my prefered weapon as fast as possible' would be the result of such a game mechanic). We have a similar mechanic in Dark Sector PvP, but this is an own gamemode. This will never work in conclave.

[Feyangol]

Added balancing suggestions for ...

 

Loki

Decoy

Hmm, it is useless and there is no way to make it usefull :/ .

 

Insibility

Complete Invisibility (like with black energy) until the first attack (Melee attacks like directional melee or copter count as a attack).

 

Switch Teleport

No change

 

Radial Disarm

Current version

 

Mag

Pull

-33% Strength

 

Shield Polarize

No change

 

Bullet Attractor

No change

 

Crush

-33% Strength

 

Mesa

Ballic Battery

No change

 

Shooting Gallery

No Change

 

Shatter Shield

-33% Strength

 

Peacemaker

New Effect: You gain +40% Dmg, +40% Speed, +40% Zoom, 1m Punch Through on all weapons and you don't need to reload during peacemaker. You are not able to move but you can do maneuvers like roll and flick flack.

 

Nyx

Mind Control

The affected player sees all allies as enemies (red mark) and all enemies as friends (no mark). He is able to kill his allies now too (additional to the enemy).

 

Psychic Bolts

No change

 

Chaos

All effected players will see anyone as a enemy. Everything is red marked for them.

 

Absorb

-33% Strength

 

 

This would make PvP extremely boring.

Please explain me why.

 

My keypoints are:

- remove the dmg reduction

- limit the strength of all rank 10 mods

- add a sort of matchmaking system for separte noobs from veterans and simplify the search of a conclave squad

- rebalance all warframe powers

 

What is my intention behind this changes?

1.) Make it easier to learn how to play PvP for beginners.

2.) Make PvP less 'mod-dependent' (that means that you don't need maxed mods for having the same chance to kill a veteran as a beginner).

3.) Give the experienced players more options for weapons than now.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Feyangol