Press 4 To Win

[AlphaHorseman]

Well that'd be neat too.

 

I meant more like...this is the way you take down a Heavy Gunner:  Block, Block, Block, Close the Distance, Kick, Stab, Shoot.

 

That might be a little complex for Warframe but...just to better illustrate my point.

Maybe a tad complex, as you said, but I get what you mean. If it were something like that, we'd have to either tone down the number of enemies on the field (which I think would suck because of how much we rely on drops in this game, mods or otherwise) or restrict the spawn of certain heavy units with these mechanics.

 

It can be done, I think. Something like a midway between a Heavy Gunner and the Mini-Bosses like the Stalker. They spawn occasionally in missions, maybe one or two for the non-endless, and maybe every 5th wave in Defense, at the end of an Interception round, and maybe every 5 minutes in survival. Hek, if you wanted we could make it where there is an extra one on the field as the next round of rewards hits.

 

To clarify, something like an enemy like that, who requires a special combo to defeat, would be something that has unique mechanics that can't just be gunned or power eliminated, no? It requires a certain circumstance or sequence in order to be eliminated. We would have to take into consideration that some players go without a melee, or Sword Alone, and other variables. 

[geninrising]

Bump to get more folks to review and weigh in with their opinions!

[Thaumatos]

Maybe a tad complex, as you said, but I get what you mean. If it were something like that, we'd have to either tone down the number of enemies on the field (which I think would suck because of how much we rely on drops in this game, mods or otherwise) or restrict the spawn of certain heavy units with these mechanics.

 

It can be done, I think. Something like a midway between a Heavy Gunner and the Mini-Bosses like the Stalker. They spawn occasionally in missions, maybe one or two for the non-endless, and maybe every 5th wave in Defense, at the end of an Interception round, and maybe every 5 minutes in survival. Hek, if you wanted we could make it where there is an extra one on the field as the next round of rewards hits.

 

To clarify, something like an enemy like that, who requires a special combo to defeat, would be something that has unique mechanics that can't just be gunned or power eliminated, no? It requires a certain circumstance or sequence in order to be eliminated. We would have to take into consideration that some players go without a melee, or Sword Alone, and other variables. 

Exactly.  Stronger enemies should change the battlefield and how you fight rather than just having more of the same in a larger hitbox.

 

Also, the drops can always be adjusted outside of gameplay.  Toning down the number of enemies on the field could just mean an increase in the amount of times an enemy would drop mods or resources.  And if you're talking about ammo, I think ammo should be changed to "clips" and be specific for each weapon.  That way you could have a whole lot less pickups lying around.

 

And honestly...the pickups look very out of place in Warframe...don't you think?  Its almost like adding something from Duke Nukem to Far Cry.

[MechaKnight]

I think I've found the most fundamental flaw Warframe is suffering from now, and thankfully the developers see it too.

 

What's wrong with imbalance? What's wrong with killing everything at the same time in less than a second? Be it whatever means we do, why is it bad that we have achieved the power to do so?

 

Let's understand the mark of a good game. For most good games, the power you've earned is mostly only relevant to the past obstacles you've faced. The game will still continue, at which point you will find new, different, and more powerful obstacles. Your scaling compared to the new obstacles should not feel as if you have just trivialized this obstacle you've never faced before. You've gained the power to make your earlier obstacles easier, but the new one imposed to you at this stage in gameplay will be strong enough to withstand you, yet different enough to challenge your strategy and applied use of tools.

 

In a single player game, completing all obstacles in sequence means you've beaten the game. In multiplayer online games and some singleplayer games, you've beaten the toughest obstacle, reached the highest level of power, but are still expected to play. This is where the sensation comes along that this game was a much better game long ago when you started.

 

What makes you think the game was better before you became so powerful? Being that you've reached end-level power, you've trivialized all previous content and obstacles, practically removing them from your concern forever. That said, powercreep is hurting the game because our natural tendency to take on challenges, earn prizes, and attempt to give life to the game only backfires and kills said game by removing yet more content and participation away from the game. The stronger you are, the less game there is to play. It's apparent in the fact that as we become more powerful, the satisfaction we get in infinite game modes is further pushed to higher and higher scores for how long we can stay. We need more minutes in survival to get our fix of fun because we need more of the scaling that gives us difficulty. We are watering down infinite survival over time as our tools become so much better, they diminish the importance of scaling for every minute and every level the mission scales upwards.

 

The way games prolong their longevity in this particular scenario is by difficulty selection. You've already beaten the toughest challenge, so because the intended development planning is currently not able to provide more obstacles to progress against at this time, the old obstacle you've beaten can be resurrected with new difficulty and rewards, which is effectively expanding the game using recycled resources. You've just been given a new challenge.

 

Okay, so we know how to fix endgame, but progression is a matter to confront too. There are enough games out there that hide hidden rewards early on, which can prove to be very powerful as you progress normally. It feels fun to have earned this edge in gameplay by way of additional and optional task and challenge compared to the usual path, but if you are given too much of a boost from such side-task options such as mentioned, the game itself will feel less fulfilling since you're essentially cheating the game of challenge up to a point where the difficulty scaling eventually approaches your level of power again.

 

As of currently, the developers do recognize these problems. For the progression portion, they seem to want to alter our damage (abilities) to be more effective for damage early on, and more support-oriented for late-game. For the endgame portion, difficulty selection is rumored to be coming back into play, effectively extending our gameplay in between content releases.

 

For this resurrection plan to succeed, the developers will probably have to implement both concepts. Progression will give the game more longevity down the road, and difficulty challenges will give the game more depth once you've reached the end. This will ensure that we always feel we have a game to play and it will get better as we play it, instead of the current trend where every release of additional power surge threatens to trivialize gameplay to the point where it feels diminished or outright removed.

Edited January 18, 2015 by MechaKnight

[AlphaHorseman]

Exactly.  Stronger enemies should change the battlefield and how you fight rather than just having more of the same in a larger hitbox.

 

Also, the drops can always be adjusted outside of gameplay.  Toning down the number of enemies on the field could just mean an increase in the amount of times an enemy would drop mods or resources.  And if you're talking about ammo, I think ammo should be changed to "clips" and be specific for each weapon.  That way you could have a whole lot less pickups lying around.

 

And honestly...the pickups look very out of place in Warframe...don't you think?  Its almost like adding something from Duke Nukem to Far Cry.

I hope the pickups get tune ups visually and both functionally.

 

Toning down our enemies spawn rates would be kinda boring though, what with the Grineer supposed to be an endless horde of Clones overrunning the System, the Corpus with their vast armies of mindless automatons, and the Infested spreading like a plague and encompassing entire settlements and turning the populace against them. Darvo's dialogue had something on this during the intro quest, I liked his character monologue.

 

Also we'd have to look at affinity as well.

 

Also, to all reading this thread, I found a pretty good post here:

 

It's from Vitalis_Inamorta in this thread:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/381190-energy-20-the-anti-4-to-win-and-a-bit-of-balancing/page-10

 

You guys still aren't getting it.  The problem isn't radial nukes, the problem isn't energy, heck, the problem isn't even over or under powered abilities.

 

The problem is very well geared players being forced to play low leveled areas.  If you don't want them trivializing low leveled areas, then freaking give them a challenge, or a high leveled area somewhere else.

 

Let's be perfectly honest here.  There was NEVER a problem at viver in the first place.  The REAL problem was DE implementing syndicates, with a massive grindwall that new players would gradually vanquish as they played the game, while leaving players that had already vanquished most of the game in the lurch.

 

Of COURSE well-geared endgame players are going to find the most efficient method possible to get stuff that they SHOULD ALREADY HAVE faster!  DE OUGHT to have fixed this oversight when they implemented syndicates, perhaps by taking the EXP a person has earned(dividing by a suitable multiplier, obviously people who run a lot of endless missions to late in will have insane amounts of EXP saved up in a smaller amount of overall time), and then giving pre-syndicate vouchers (which already exist in the game as the syndicate specific tokens you can hunt down in syndicate missions) to players with the update that brought syndicates into the game, allowing these players to rapidly invest in the syndicates they wanted to as if they had done so while playing the game before hand.

 

Nullifiers were implemented for the same reason, DE knee-jerk reacting to players fixing the problem that DE created.  Nullifiers are STILL completely and utterly stupid-broken with regards to heavily nerfing low RoF high power weapons while buffing the ALREADY biased towards high RoF weapons via a ridiculous, counterintuitive mechanic that should NEVER have blocked bullets or blades AT ALL in the first place.

 

None of the damage 4s have ever been a problem.  5k damage?  Any well modded weapon will do that in a shot or three.  20k damage?  Snipers do as much or more on average per shot, and with max power strength you've nerfed every other part of your kit to siphon all the power into your 4, as well as playing a specific frame (ash/rhino/excalibur), so why shouldn't you be able to?  No, the problem here isn't players winning easily, the problem here is bored players winning easy content easily, based on the massive amounts of resources, power, and knowledge they have ALREADY collected about the game.

 

IF DE doesn't like it, they need to work harder on the endgame and segregating players of widely variant mastery ranks (unless friend/premade intentionally) and focus less on people doing what they are intended to do to low difficulty challenges.

 

Namely, utterly ANNIHILATING them.

 

In short, 4s aren't too powerful, and energy isn't too plentiful, the energy system doesn't need a rework, and we don't need to nerf the heck out of all our damage-caster frames.  P42w is what a low-leveled/geared player sees when they get grouped with a high leveled/geared player being forced to do low-leveled content that bores them terribly.  There really isn't any P42W in the end, specifically, the closest things we have to endless missions atm.  Level 20-40 enemies against a player who is fully utilizing a frame that is effectively level 60?  Yeah they're going to fall like snow.  Level 80 enemies?  Suddenly all of those damage 4s are not even worth using, because it literally takes 10 casts to kill anything.  The CC still works though, but the game is quite hard, even for radial spam builds at this point, because they have to time that CC to make the best use, with their guns and blades, of the time they have made to be safe from instant death from the enemies.

 

Also look at the new Hot Topics to see actually how many people only use 1 power, it is barely a fraction of the Community.

Edited January 18, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[geninrising]

 

I hope the pickups get tune ups visually and both functionally.

 

Toning down our enemies spawn rates would be kinda boring though, what with the Grineer supposed to be an endless horde of Clones overrunning the System, the Corpus with their vast armies of mindless automatons, and the Infested spreading like a plague and encompassing entire settlements and turning the populace against them. Darvo's dialogue had something on this during the intro quest, I liked his character monologue.

 

Also we'd have to look at affinity as well.

 

Also, to all reading this thread, I found a pretty good post here:

 

It's from Vitalis_Inamorta in this thread:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/381190-energy-20-the-anti-4-to-win-and-a-bit-of-balancing/page-10

 

You guys still aren't getting it.  The problem isn't radial nukes, the problem isn't energy, heck, the problem isn't even over or under powered abilities.

 

The problem is very well geared players being forced to play low leveled areas.  If you don't want them trivializing low leveled areas, then freaking give them a challenge, or a high leveled area somewhere else.

 

Let's be perfectly honest here.  There was NEVER a problem at viver in the first place.  The REAL problem was DE implementing syndicates, with a massive grindwall that new players would gradually vanquish as they played the game, while leaving players that had already vanquished most of the game in the lurch.

 

Of COURSE well-geared endgame players are going to find the most efficient method possible to get stuff that they SHOULD ALREADY HAVE faster!  DE OUGHT to have fixed this oversight when they implemented syndicates, perhaps by taking the EXP a person has earned(dividing by a suitable multiplier, obviously people who run a lot of endless missions to late in will have insane amounts of EXP saved up in a smaller amount of overall time), and then giving pre-syndicate vouchers (which already exist in the game as the syndicate specific tokens you can hunt down in syndicate missions) to players with the update that brought syndicates into the game, allowing these players to rapidly invest in the syndicates they wanted to as if they had done so while playing the game before hand.

 

Nullifiers were implemented for the same reason, DE knee-jerk reacting to players fixing the problem that DE created.  Nullifiers are STILL completely and utterly stupid-broken with regards to heavily nerfing low RoF high power weapons while buffing the ALREADY biased towards high RoF weapons via a ridiculous, counterintuitive mechanic that should NEVER have blocked bullets or blades AT ALL in the first place.

 

None of the damage 4s have ever been a problem.  5k damage?  Any well modded weapon will do that in a shot or three.  20k damage?  Snipers do as much or more on average per shot, and with max power strength you've nerfed every other part of your kit to siphon all the power into your 4, as well as playing a specific frame (ash/rhino/excalibur), so why shouldn't you be able to?  No, the problem here isn't players winning easily, the problem here is bored players winning easy content easily, based on the massive amounts of resources, power, and knowledge they have ALREADY collected about the game.

 

IF DE doesn't like it, they need to work harder on the endgame and segregating players of widely variant mastery ranks (unless friend/premade intentionally) and focus less on people doing what they are intended to do to low difficulty challenges.

 

Namely, utterly ANNIHILATING them.

 

In short, 4s aren't too powerful, and energy isn't too plentiful, the energy system doesn't need a rework, and we don't need to nerf the heck out of all our damage-caster frames.  P42w is what a low-leveled/geared player sees when they get grouped with a high leveled/geared player being forced to do low-leveled content that bores them terribly.  There really isn't any P42W in the end, specifically, the closest things we have to endless missions atm.  Level 20-40 enemies against a player who is fully utilizing a frame that is effectively level 60?  Yeah they're going to fall like snow.  Level 80 enemies?  Suddenly all of those damage 4s are not even worth using, because it literally takes 10 casts to kill anything.  The CC still works though, but the game is quite hard, even for radial spam builds at this point, because they have to time that CC to make the best use, with their guns and blades, of the time they have made to be safe from instant death from the enemies.

 

Also look at the new Hot Topics to see actually how many people only use 1 power, it is barely a fraction of the Community.

 

This is actually a truthful account for the most part. However the constant spamming of skills trivializing content is not only in low level content. Look at any t4 defense or Survival and it clearly demonstrates the issue. Spam snow globe, spam radial disarm, spam chaos, spam anything else you happen to have brought. In fact a group that does not bring a spammable build(ie: a build that allows whatever given power to be in constant use) will not get as far as one that does.

 

Therefore there is an imbalance favoring power play.

 

The ability to have any and all abilities constantly at the ready and be used back to back is what is causing some players to see an issue with abilities. Not their strength in a single use.

 

Regardless of why a player is doing it, the fault lies in the ability to do so with said spamming being the BEST choice in most circumstances and there is the crux of the argument.

[AlphaHorseman]

This is actually a truthful account for the most part. However the constant spamming of skills trivializing content is not only in low level content. Look at any t4 defense or Survival and it clearly demonstrates the issue. Spam snow globe, spam radial disarm, spam chaos, spam anything else you happen to have brought. In fact a group that does not bring a spammable build(ie: a build that allows whatever given power to be in constant use) will not get as far as one that does.

 

Therefore there is an imbalance favoring power play.

 

The ability to have any and all abilities constantly at the ready and be used back to back is what is causing some players to see an issue with abilities. Not their strength in a single use.

 

Regardless of why a player is doing it, the fault lies in the ability to do so with said spamming being the BEST choice in most circumstances and there is the crux of the argument.

He literally gave you an example of why that isn't the case. 10 casts for one power JUST to kill targets, when you could have just as easily raised your gun and taken that down way faster.

 

Not to mention spamming Snow Globe is only going to blind your team if the energy isn't Black. The loss of time itself merits some huge drawbacks. Spamming Radial Disarm doesn't make any sense because you can't disarm enemies more than once. You can't even spam Chaos, you have to wait for the duration to finish in order to cast it again. It literally can't be spammed over and over by mashing a button. Unless for some weird reason you decide not to do anything in those minimum 10 seconds. 10 seconds in a game where you either shoot and blast things apart or let them shoot or blast you apart. Yep, that's a grand idea.

 

I've gone far with my max power strength/duration Defensive Frost build. Far farther than my Offensive Fleeting Build. Thank you very much.

 

You can use your abilities back to back, nobody said you had to. They're there if you have the energy for them, that's good for you. Doesn't mean you're forced to press that button. For those of us that like having all our powers readily available, should the energy allow, that's a good thing for us.

[TwiceDead]

He literally gave you an example of why that isn't the case. 10 casts for one power JUST to kill targets, when you could have just as easily raised your gun and taken that down way faster.

Or, you know, 1 cast to kill everything. It works, I swear.

 

I am pretty sure many in the community have observed this. 

 

Not to mention spamming Snow Globe is only going to blind your team if the energy isn't Black. The loss of time itself merits some huge drawbacks. Spamming Radial Disarm doesn't make any sense because you can't disarm enemies more than once. You can't even spam Chaos, you have to wait for the duration to finish in order to cast it again. It literally can't be spammed over and over by mashing a button. Unless for some weird reason you decide not to do anything in those minimum 10 seconds. 10 seconds in a game where you either shoot and blast things apart or let them shoot or blast you apart. Yep, that's a grand idea.

Then rather than be a nuisance to your team, go black. 

 

New enemies might enter the combat-zone, and they were probably not initially affected by Radial Disarm. Cast it again to remedy. Do it more if you have Irradiated Disarm because that S#&$ is timed. 

Nyx Negative Duration build. Cast Chaos every 10 seconds, more than enough to ensure no new-arrivals gets the jump on you. Also I don't see what point you were trying to get across with this: 

 

Unless for some weird reason you decide not to do anything in those minimum 10 seconds. 10 seconds in a game where you either shoot and blast things apart or let them shoot or blast you apart. Yep, that's a grand idea.

 

Onwards... 

 

You can use your abilities back to back, nobody said you had to. They're there if you have the energy for them, that's good for you. For those of us that like having all our powers readily available, should the energy allow, that's a good thing for us.

Should the energy allow... 

Really now? 

They are always there for you because you never run out of energy, unless you wen't completely without efficiency mods. 

Doesn't mean you're forced to press that button. 

Sure, feel free to completely break the expectations of your teammates when they are relying on you to spam your abilities which was the reason they brought you along in the first place. No, literally, I have to be a ____insert frame____ to join this T4D group. If I am not, they won't let me join 

because they are expecting me to spam ____insert ability____ for the duration of this round. 

Take a peek in the Recruit chat, it happens all the time.

[geninrising]

Not to mention spamming Snow Globe is only going to blind your team if the energy isn't Black. The loss of time itself merits some huge drawbacks. Spamming Radial Disarm doesn't make any sense because you can't disarm enemies more than once. You can't even spam Chaos, you have to wait for the duration to finish in order to cast it again. It literally can't be spammed over and over by mashing a button. Unless for some weird reason you decide not to do anything in those minimum 10 seconds. 10 seconds in a game where you either shoot and blast things apart or let them shoot or blast you apart. Yep, that's a grand idea.

 

I've gone far with my max power strength/duration Defensive Frost build. Far farther than my Offensive Fleeting Build. Thank you very much.

 

see you completely ignored this part-spammable(ie: a build that allows whatever given power to be in constant use)

 

I was bringing to the table the idea that spam is not just the aoe nuke abilities, while they are a large portion of the problem.

Additionally the point of Radial Disarm is that yes you can run from area to area spamming it making various enemies nothing more than cannon fodder.

 

Also the Snowglobe is spamming since it's always up.

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[AlphaHorseman]

 

Or, you know, 1 cast to kill everything. It works, I swear.

 

I am pretty sure many in the community have observed this. 

 

Then rather than be a nuisance to your team, go black. 

 

New enemies might enter the combat-zone, and they were probably not initially affected by Radial Disarm. Cast it again to remedy. Do it more if you have Irradiated Disarm because that S#&$ is timed. 

Nyx Negative Duration build. Cast Chaos every 10 seconds, more than enough to ensure no new-arrivals gets the jump on you. Also I don't see what point you were trying to get across with this: 

 

 

Onwards... 

 

Should the energy allow... 

Really now? 

They are always there for you because you never run out of energy, unless you wen't completely without efficiency mods. 

Sure, feel free to completely break the expectations of your teammates when they are relying on you to spam your abilities which was the reason they brought you along in the first place. No, literally, I have to be a ____insert frame____ to join this T4D group. If I am not, they won't let me join 

because they are expecting me to spam ____insert ability____ for the duration of this round. 

Take a peek in the Recruit chat, it happens all the time.

 

Yes, because casting Avalanche over and over again always works -_-

 

Wow, all those examples made absolutely no impact on how valid the points were I was trying to get across. He gave me examples (bad as they were) and showed him literally how they're not good spammable.

 

"New enemies might enter the combat-zone". Really? That's what you're going to rely on?

 

Oh I do run low duration Nyx. It doesn't mean I'm standing there for 10 seconds and waiting for the recast. I'm killing things with my guns to make sure when Chaos is over I'm the only one left standing. That's literally the point of Chaos.

 

The powers aren't always there, because not everyone goes for max efficiency builds. I gave you how I went for my Max Strength and Max Duration and Max armor build for Frost. Even if you do, I've ended up without energy in a t4 survival using my Fleeting Frost build, multiple times. Not just because of how drops are RNG, but also because of Eximi stealing energy.

 

If you go looking for a group like that, that's all your fault. If you don't like people who play like that, simple solution is not to play with people like that.

 

see you completely ignored this part-spammable(ie: a build that allows whatever given power to be in constant use)

 

I was bringing to the table the idea that spam is not just the aoe nuke abilities, while they are a large portion of the problem.

Additionally the point of Radial Disarm is that yes you can run from area to area spamming it making various enemies nothing more than cannon fodder.

 

Also the Snowglobe is spamming since it's always up.

You want to use examples of powers as "Spammable"  when two don't make sense to use them as spam examples, yes, makes complete sense.

 

If you're running through the map just Radial Disarming people, you will eventually have to kill them. They can still do damage, you still have to deal with them. If you've bunched them up and they're running at you in a straight line, I'd call that pretty good planning.

 

If you're color isn't black, all you're pretty much doing is blinding the team. It's keeping the objective safe, sure, but you're also pretty much having 0 visibility and no reliable way to see outside what the Hek is going on.

[geninrising]

Yes, because casting Avalanche over and over again always works -_-

 

Wow, all those examples made absolutely no impact on how valid the points were I was trying to get across. He gave me examples (bad as they were) and showed him literally how they're not good spammable.

 

"New enemies might enter the combat-zone". Really? That's what you're going to rely on?

 

Oh I do run low duration Nyx. It doesn't mean I'm standing there for 10 seconds and waiting for the recast. I'm killing things with my guns to make sure when Chaos is over I'm the only one left standing. That's literally the point of Chaos.

 

The powers aren't always there, because not everyone goes for max efficiency builds. I gave you how I went for my Max Strength and Max Duration and Max armor build for Frost. Even if you do, I've ended up without energy in a t4 survival using my Fleeting Frost build, multiple times. Not just because of how drops are RNG, but also because of Eximi stealing energy.

 

If you go looking for a group like that, that's all your fault. If you don't like people who play like that, simple solution is not to play with people like that.

 

You want to use examples of powers as "Spammable"  when two don't make sense to use them as spam examples, yes, makes complete sense.

 

If you're running through the map just Radial Disarming people, you will eventually have to kill them. They can still do damage, you still have to deal with them. If you've bunched them up and they're running at you in a straight line, I'd call that pretty good planning.

 

If you're color isn't black, all you're pretty much doing is blinding the team. It's keeping the objective safe, sure, but you're also pretty much having 0 visibility and no reliable way to see outside what the Hek is going on.

I also gave you my definition of spammable which you obviously ignored to perpetuate your agenda.

 

No matter how you look at it, it is a problem when the energy mechanic designed to gate powers and prevent said style of spamming no longer works to gate anything.

[TwiceDead]

Yes, because casting Avalanche over and over again always works -_-

Didn't know Avalanche was the only power in this game... Huh. 

 

Wow, all those examples made absolutely no impact on how valid the points were I was trying to get across. He gave me examples (bad as they were) and showed him literally how they're not good spammable.

And I gave you counter-points to why they could be good to cast as soon as you are able. Ignore them as you will. 

 

"New enemies might enter the combat-zone". Really? That's what you're going to rely on?

Did it ever occur to you that your abilities have a capped range at about 50m? That may not be enough to capture every single enemy on the map inside your little spell, better cast it again to ensure you don't miss anyone this time. I shouldn't have to explain this as it is bloody obvious. 

 

Oh I do run low duration Nyx. It doesn't mean I'm standing there for 10 seconds and waiting for the recast. I'm killing things with my guns to make sure when Chaos is over I'm the only one left standing. That's literally the point of Chaos.

Are you accusing me of being inactive for 10 seconds waiting to re-cast chaos? Because other than that I don't see anything noteworthy here. Not that I can't though, I could always hop into Absorb if I feel lazy while waiting for the cool-down. 

 

The powers aren't always there, because not everyone goes for max efficiency builds. I gave you how I went for my Max Strength and Max Duration and Max armor build for Frost. Even if you do, I've ended up without energy in a t4 survival using my Fleeting Frost build, multiple times. Not just because of how drops are RNG, but also because of Eximi stealing energy.

Yes, I've read you. You don't do any of those OP things, I get it, you go for power-strength and duration. 

Now guess what the next pub-players you end up with is going to run? I'm pretty sure at least one of them is running efficiency builds...  

As for the times where energy is completely and unfairly ripped away from you, that is completely unfair to the player since you don't even get a warning before it has happened most of the time. These are the crutches DE resort to in order to limit our ability spam. They don't trust us(and rightfully so) to run out of energy on our own, so they enforce it on us. 

 

If you go looking for a group like that, that's all your fault. If you don't like people who play like that, simple solution is not to play with people like that..

I don't go looking for a group. What group I end up in is completely up to RNG as soon as I press that "Accept" button, and the game searches for a party for me. If I had something like server preferences before that, it would be bad because it would only serve to split up the community. 

[geninrising]

Yes, I've read you. You don't do any of those OP things, I get it, you go for power-strength and duration. 

Now guess what the next pub-players you end up with is going to run? I'm pretty sure at least one of them is running efficiency builds...  

As for the times where energy is completely and unfairly ripped away from you, that is completely unfair to the player since you don't even get a warning before it has happened most of the time. These are the crutches DE resort to in order to limit our ability spam. They don't trust us(and rightfully so) to run out of energy on our own, so they enforce it on us. 

 

Yeah this is part of my problem with spam. DE works to counter it and players that do not utilize said builds at all are being punished more than said spammers.

 

If it wasn't a problem why would DE need to implement anything to reduce spam?

Edited January 18, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

Just in case anyone decides to further the farce stating ability spam is not an issue nor is it even on DE's radar.

Shut up and read

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345295-vivergate-vent-radioactive-gas-yn/

[AlphaHorseman]

I also gave you my definition of spammable which you obviously ignored to perpetuate your agenda.

 

No matter how you look at it, it is a problem when the energy mechanic designed to gate powers and prevent said style of spamming no longer works to gate anything.

My agenda? My "agenda" is to be able to play as my caster build for Frost without some callous on the Forums complaining about me play as a Caster for Frost SIMPLY BECAUSE I'm BEING A BLOOMING CASTER AND SHOOTING OF MY POWERS. So the blooming callous says "he shouldn't be able to do that, I don't think he should be able to use his powers whenever available" simply because I'm doing exactly what I set out and built for, using all my powers to eliminate my threats. Lo and behold, I use my guns too, how ironic that I use the tools DE has given me to complete my tasks.

 

If, AND ONLY IF, you go for Max Efficiency. Not everyone does, Genin. Look at the poll, and you'll see how many actually do. It isn't even a noticeable number even in a fraction of the community.

 

 

 

Didn't know Avalanche was the only power in this game... Huh. 

 

And I gave you counter-points to why they could be good to cast as soon as you are able. Ignore them as you will. 

 

Did it ever occur to you that your abilities have a capped range at about 50m? That may not be enough to capture every single enemy on the map inside your little spell, better cast it again to ensure you don't miss anyone this time. I shouldn't have to explain this as it is bloody obvious. 

 

Are you accusing me of being inactive for 10 seconds waiting to re-cast chaos? Because other than that I don't see anything noteworthy here. Not that I can't though, I could always hop into Absorb if I feel lazy while waiting for the cool-down. 

 

Yes, I've read you. You don't do any of those OP things, I get it, you go for power-strength and duration. 

Now guess what the next pub-players you end up with is going to run? I'm pretty sure at least one of them is running efficiency builds...  

As for the times where energy is completely and unfairly ripped away from you, that is completely unfair to the player since you don't even get a warning before it has happened most of the time. These are the crutches DE resort to in order to limit our ability spam. They don't trust us(and rightfully so) to run out of energy on our own, so they enforce it on us. 

 

I don't go looking for a group. What group I end up in is completely up to RNG as soon as I press that "Accept" button, and the game searches for a party for me. If I had something like server preferences before that, it would be bad because it would only serve to split up the community. 

 

I used Avalanche because Frost is my main, ever since I got him a month after starting the game, approaching 2 years now. There are other skills, but which in particular bug you? Actually name them, and why.

 

Oh no I got your points, I still pointed out why his examples were bad ones.

 

I get your point, they have a limit.

 

You could hop into Absorb if you wish, but even that is dependent on incoming damage to actually dish out some damage. If that's how you do it, more power to ya. I'd rather kill everything before they all return to looking at me as the single target. It can be achievable with Absorb, I don't do that though, unless they're all aiming at me or my teammates are. Didn't accuse you of being inactive, just said none of us here would stand there looking pretty while our enemies were around us, we'd actually deal with the threats.

 

I still think they trust us, but the enemies like Nullifiers and Eximi represent ways to which they challenge us to not just use our powers, but use the whole of our gear we have. I like going caster, but if there's a Leech Eximi or Ancient Disrupter on the field, I'll be strumming my bow until they're pinned to the wall. Nullifiers, I can use some direct hit powers to dampen the shield at a distance (Freeze, for example), but I can eliminate him quicker with my bow (hopefully they factor in Crit builds soon). One in four isn't a bad thing, even if it was two in four, people are allowed to build as they will, that's the beauty of the system. We have the freedom to build as we wish, the parameters set by DE. If the most recent Hot Topics is any good indicator, not many just mash 4 as people say, it's actually quite a small amount that bore themselves to death with that tactic.

 

 

Yeah this is part of my problem with spam. DE works to counter it and players that do not utilize said builds at all are being punished more than said spammers.

 

If it wasn't a problem why would DE need to implement anything to reduce spam?

 

Just in case anyone decides to further the farce stating ability spam is not an issue nor is it even on DE's radar.

Shut up and read

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345295-vivergate-vent-radioactive-gas-yn/

 

Says that, and then releases Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, with Primed Streamline on the way...Yeah, of course you're going to use that post, and of course I'm going to show you how it isn't the case. Shall we continue on with the "Actions speak louder than words" thing?

[geninrising]

Says that, and then releases Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, with Primed Streamline on the way...Yeah, of course you're going to use that post, and of course I'm going to show you how it isn't the case. Shall we continue on with the "Actions speak louder than words" thing?

The very problem with this statement is that it is not possible that you know the direction they are going with those releases.

 

The impetus for those mods may be a change in the overall energy system since there has been no decrease in spam of abilities since the implementation of said enemies. Furthermore it would be a sign of a lack of integrity if Steve stated a loophole was being exploited and then DE did not fix said problem.

 

That is precisely the scenario you are illustrating and I simply cannot fathom why a game company would make an official statement like that and then do nothing about it. Unless they just haven't implemented the full rollout on various changes inbound. That seems a far more likely situation indeed as players must slowly be accustomed to massive change bit by bit in order to avoid system shock which would cost the devs tons of customers.  From this point on players will be watching very hard every decision DE makes(as if they were not criticized harshly before) in order to ascertain the quality of DE's design decisions.

[AlphaHorseman]

The very problem with this statement is that it is not possible that you know the direction they are going with those releases.

 

The impetus for those mods may be a change in the overall energy system since there has been no decrease in spam of abilities since the implementation of said enemies. Furthermore it would be a sign of a lack of integrity if Steve stated a loophole was being exploited and then DE did not fix said problem.

 

That is precisely the scenario you are illustrating and I simply cannot fathom why a game company would make an official statement like that and then do nothing about it. Unless they just haven't implemented the full rollout on various changes inbound. That seems a far more likely situation indeed as players must slowly be accustomed to massive change bit by bit in order to avoid system shock which would cost the devs tons of customers.  From this point on players will be watching very hard every decision DE makes(as if they were not criticized harshly before) in order to ascertain the quality of DE's design decisions.

They're already rolling out ways where using just powers isn't always the best solution. We had Eximi before, and also the Ancient Healers and Disrupters, now with new Infested Allies, and now the introduction of Nullifiers. These new enemy types help to quell anyone's worries about this, and I like this approach of adding new enemies that challenge the tools we have because it doesn't take away from the player base.

 

True, none of us here know what's going to happen, but I still hope they continue this path of giving us challenges to use our tools against, rather than removing the potency of our tools to make the already boring challenges we've all faced more annoying, rather than more interesting.

[TwiceDead]

I used Avalanche because Frost is my main, ever since I got him a month after starting the game, approaching 2 years now. There are other skills, but which in particular bug you? Actually name them, and why.

If you try any other frames than Frost, maybe you'll figure it out. I can mention a few though, MP, Miasma, Bladestorm, any ability with 50m's of range and hard CC that lasts for 10 to 30 seconds. Seriously, our last frame? Mesa? All we have to do is use the ability and hold a button. I'll admit its a bit more work than just pressing a button.

 

 Didn't accuse you of being inactive, just said none of us here would stand there looking pretty while our enemies were around us, we'd actually deal with the threats.

No, I am pretty sure you were accusing me of being inactive, because what you're saying is so obvious it really shouldn't need to be told, which means the only reason you'd need to say it is if you're trying to accuse me of something to further your own arguments. 

 

I still think they trust us, but the enemies like Nullifiers and Eximi represent ways to which they challenge us to not just use our powers, but use the whole of our gear we have. I like going caster, but if there's a Leech Eximi or Ancient Disrupter on the field, I'll be strumming my bow until they're pinned to the wall. Nullifiers, I can use some direct hit powers to dampen the shield at a distance (Freeze, for example), but I can eliminate him quicker with my bow (hopefully they factor in Crit builds soon). One in four isn't a bad thing, even if it was two in four, people are allowed to build as they will, that's the beauty of the system. We have the freedom to build as we wish, the parameters set by DE. If the most recent Hot Topics is any good indicator, not many just mash 4 as people say, it's actually quite a small amount that bore themselves to death with that tactic.

Forums =/= Player population.

 

You can kill Eximi with your powers(unless they unfairly rip your entire energy-pool to shreds), so no their new powers don't really stop you at all. 

 

Freedom of choice... Please, as if you care. 

We are done. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by TwiceDead

[AlphaHorseman]

If you try any other frames than Frost, maybe you'll figure it out. I can mention a few though, MP, Miasma, Bladestorm, any ability with 50m's of range and hard CC that lasts for 10 to 30 seconds. Seriously, our last frame? Mesa? All we have to do is use the ability and hold a button. I'll admit its a bit more work than just pressing a button.

 

No, I am pretty sure you were accusing me of being inactive, because what you're saying is so obvious it really shouldn't need to be told, which means the only reason you'd need to say it is if you're trying to accuse me of something to further your own arguments. 

 

Forums =/= Player population.

 

You can kill Eximi with your powers(unless they unfairly rip your entire energy-pool to shreds), so no their new powers don't really stop you at all. 

 

Freedom of choice... Please, as if you care. 

We are done. 

Oh I have most of the frames, all of the ones you've mentioned, actually. Well, except for Mesa, still farming her. MP's more of a hard CC skill rather than an actual AoE nuke. It becomes that when you kill off the enemies that are bunched together. Even then, it requires you to shoot them with another gun or power in order for it to be set off. Miasma is fun, haha, love my Saryn when that happens. Outside of endless or end-tier, if a player is using a build to challenge end-tier content, I can see why this becomes very powerful outside of those mission types. Bladestorm as well, albeit you're stuck with a target limit and Slash proc isn't the best when the enemy has a lot of armor.

 

It boggled my mind on how he used "spamming" chaos as an example when there's the duration mechanic that delays that. Only way to end the duration prematurely is by killing the enemies. Then you'll have to cast it again on a new set of enemies. That's why it made no sense to me why he used it as an example. Even if you did cast it on the same group of enemies, what's the point? Just kill them off while they're trying to kill off each other. They'll still be able to shoot at you when you're enjoying the view of them shooting at each other.

 

I think over 1,200 players who voted is a pretty good slice of the Player Population.

 

You can kill the eximi with your powers yes, should you have the energy, but the Infested Disrupters ensure an allied buff against AoE skills, and the Healers shore up the lost health. The biggest one of all so far is the Nullifiers that flat out block all powers used against them and the area around them.

 

Yes, I do care about freedom of choice. If you're done, then you don't need to respond. I'm still going on with these conversations, so good bye. Have a good day sir.

[geninrising]

Ok so over the past 13 pages this matter has been hotly debated and I'm just wondering if there are any other individuals out there that have anything they would like to add on the matter. 

 

Currently there is strong belief that the p42w playstyle is a symptom of several different things all coming to a head presenting itself as this behavior.

#1 grind is too great without doing it this way.

#2 There are too many abilities that are considered utterly useless in comparison or are completely inefficient(ties back into #1)

 

What are your thoughts?

[geninrising]

Edited end of OP to include various ideas on the impetus of this playstyle.

[jjpdn]

Ok so over the past 13 pages this matter has been hotly debated and I'm just wondering if there are any other individuals out there that have anything they would like to add on the matter. 

 

Currently there is strong belief that the p42w playstyle is a symptom of several different things all coming to a head presenting itself as this behavior.

#1 grind is too great without doing it this way.

#2 There are too many abilities that are considered utterly useless in comparison or are completely inefficient(ties back into #1)

 

What are your thoughts?

I agree with both.

 

Warframe is too much about CC.

 

We need more powerful singles.

 

Also, reading through all that, all I can think of is:

 

"Must I always show you the way forward?"

                           -Mutalist Alad V

[geninrising]

I agree with both.

 

Warframe is too much about CC.

 

We need more powerful singles.

 

Also, reading through all that, all I can think of is:

 

"Must I always show you the way forward?"

                           -Mutalist Alad V

Thank you. What this post is trying to get DE to realize that their stopgap methods are not having the desired effects necessarily.

[Ronyn]

a possible solution to fix "Homer's Drinking Bird" gameplay that has been prevalent for a while.

 

Hi guys I'm late to the party and I don't have the time to go back and read it all the moment.... 

so please forgive me if I re-state some stuff that's already been discussed.

 

Ok so the core energy system itself has a huge impact on this issue and we wont see a full solution without addressing it directly.

However I'm going to leave that alone for a moment.

Instead I want to talk about some other things that help fight against a player only pressing one button.

 

First up SYNERGY.

When the act of using one power increases the effectiveness of another power it entices the player to do so.

Example 1: When Ember casts accelerant it increases the fire damage that an enemy takes from fire attacks.

So an ember has every reason to use accelerant along with world on fire as opposed to instead of.

Example 2: When Mesa enters her Peacemaker ult she is stationary. This makes her a sitting duck without her defensive powers.

So a Mesa has every reason to use Peacenaker along with her other powers as opposed to instead of.

 

Second up DIVERSITY.

When the powers you have do very different things you will pick which to use based on situation.

Example 1: When Rhino wants to control a crowd of enemies he uses stomp. When he wants to buff allies he uses Roaor.

These two abilities have distinctly different uses so there is more often going to be situations where each one shines.

Example 2: When Trinity wants to give health she uses well of life, when trinity wants to give energy she uses energy vampire.

These two abilities have distinctly different uses so there is more often going to be situations where each one shines.

 

If each frames power set offered a great sense of both synergy and diversity the game would shift quite a bit away from the "press 4 to win" style of play. If nothing else...it would at least become "press a combination of these four buttons to win"...which is an improvement.

:-)

 

The REAL advantage to this route is that it's based on changing the problem through positive reinforcement.

Instead of feeling like DE is trying to limit player choice or penalizing those who want to be redundant in their power usage...

It would be like DE is offering rewards for using the full array of powers. It's just plain better all around.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ronyn

[AlphaHorseman]

Hi guys I'm late to the party and I don't have the time to go back and read it all the moment.... 

so please forgive me if I re-state some stuff that's already been discussed.

 

Ok so the core energy system itself has a huge impact on this issue and we wont see a full solution without addressing it directly.

However I'm going to leave that alone for a moment.

Instead I want to talk about some other things that help fight against a player only pressing one button.

 

First up SYNERGY.

When the act of using one power increases the effectiveness of another power it entices the player to do so.

Example 1: When Ember casts accelerant it increases the fire damage that an enemy takes from fire attacks.

So an ember has every reason to use accelerant along with world on fire as opposed to instead of.

Example 2: When Mesa enters her Peacemaker ult she is stationary. This makes her a sitting duck without her defensive powers.

So an ember has every reason to use Peacenaker along with her other powers as opposed to instead of.

 

Second up DIVERSITY.

When the powers you have do very different things you will pick which to use based on situation.

Example 1: When Rhino wants to control a crowd of enemies he uses stomp. When he wants to buff allies he uses Roaor.

These two abilities have distinctly different uses so there is more often going to be situations where each one shines.

Example 2: When Trinity wants to give health she uses well of life, when trinity wants to give energy she uses energy vampire.

These two abilities have distinctly different uses so there is more often going to be situations where each one shines.

 

If each frames power set offered a great sense of both synergy and diversity the game would shift quite a bit away from the "press 4 to win" style of play. If nothing else...it would at least become "press a combination of these four buttons to win"...which is an improvement.

:-)

 

The REAL advantage to this route is that it's based on changing the problem through positive reinforcement.

Instead of feeling like DE is trying to limit player choice or penalizing those who want to be redundant in their power usage...

It would be like DE is offering rewards for using the full array of powers. It's just plain better all around.

Yay! Someone gets it! This was a point I was trying to get across, Ronyn you rock!