Press 4 To Win

[Azawarau]

Mighty walls of text what am i missing here

[Nighttide77]

Oh, and increased drop rates for increased difficulty sounds good, too.  Getting kinda tired of that seemingly 0.1% chance High Noon is going to drop from a Brood Mother.

[Nighttide77]

Mighty walls of text what am i missing here

 

A grand conclusion to what might just hopefully be the next step in Warframe's evolution.

[AlphaHorseman]

A grand conclusion to what might just hopefully be the next step in Warframe's evolution.

I second that! This would be fun!

[Nighttide77]

Haha, sounds like something that could be very fun if implemented correctly. We shouldn't just limit it to nerfing powers and frames though, limitations should be also on guns, maybe lower fire rate, higher reload times, slower attack rate for melee, or a combination of limitations. If we could choose what limitations were placed on our frames it would be cool, but I can see that being exploited quickly. Players would choose to either nerf their reload/fire rate to keep their high damage weapons online, or abilities as well. So yes, a combination of detriments would be interesting to implement, and it could help to justify the hell we go through to get those rewards. Not to mention it whacks the RNG completely, that helps out a lot too.

 

I'm actually excited for this idea.  We should really refine this idea and find some way to really get DE's attention.

[XxMAGGOTxX]

At least some frames can press 4 to win... Frost presses 4 to stunlock himself longer than enemies. 

[MechaKnight]

Yeah. I finally figured it out. It's not nerf all players via a limit for no reason. Rather, give us a reason to limit ourselves with good rewards and expanded content. Persistently through the game, for incentives that always matter.

 

Also, I'll have to move this to a new thread some time. At least, the plan isn't about implementing limitations on an existing system, but implementing a new system that worships optional self-limitation.

Edited January 8, 2015 by MechaKnight

[Azawarau]

I'm actually excited for this idea.  We should really refine this idea and find some way to really get DE's attention.

Can you type a TL;DR?

[Nighttide77]

Can you type a TL;DR?

 

In a nutshell, there was a huge debate/discussion over whether warframe nuke powers should be nerfed to Line of Sight (LoS) and/or an anti-spam controlling system be introduced.  There were those for the freedom to spam powers as much as felt enjoyable, and there were those that felt the game needed to hinder spamming and encourage players to use other methods to succeed in missions.  Opinions and facts were shared in immense detail.

 

The idea that both parties seem to agree on that would give everyone what they're asking for is a difficulty selection for each mission.  In each mission, players can choose between some difficulty levels, from normal upwards.  The higher the difficulty selection, the less duration/strength/reach/efficiency warframe powers have, along with lower shields, health, and even possibly changes in weapon handling mechanics, like higher reload speeds.  Enemies and levels will also have more mechanics, like a Hardcore boss will have moves its Normal counterpart does not, and/or levels will reincorporate broken lights and other traps; all as oppose to just higher level bullet sponges.  In turn for higher difficulty, credits, resources and mods have increased drop rates, and greater XP gain.  There would also be potential for gaining special BPs and stuff based on mission challenge(s) and not RNG (such as how one gains a Cosmic specter over a Force specter).

 

As stated by MechaKnight, a new thread will probably be started to refine this and hopefully garner mass support.  With proper implementation, the difficulty options for missions would further balance feelings of reward for effort, give new challenge to veterans, and perhaps even breathe new life into the game for many that are burned out from RNG walls and endless mission types.

[Shuuro]

To MechaKnight: Someone who gets the idea. A change needs to happen in Warframe, and a difficulty setting would be the one thing that could possibly make everyone more satisfied with the game.

 

 

 

To Nighttide77: I'm not trying to take away everyone fun. It's not about me, it's not about you, it's not about how we feel. There are players out there that don't like having other people show their feats of strength. Some people actually hate show offs, and mostly, people that don't say anything just want to get out of the mission as fast as they can and they don't bother saying anything. I have seen first hand that people have negatively lashed out and groaned about rushers in game. It's a thing. What I'm trying to get at, is not taking the nuke everything aspect from the game away. That would be silly. That's what nukes are in the game for. We're just trying to find a solution to make it less of a spamable resource.

 

Those one player games that you mentioned. Those were good example. But as such, they are one player games. If they had co-op, and you played with a random, and you did one shot everything, on one side, you'd have that one person in awe that hey, your hard core carrying. On the flip side of the coin, you'd have someone go, Oh god, he's hard-core carrying. Trust me, I know the guilty pleasures of getting the end gear on a single player game. As I admitted earlier. Ultimate Armor X in Megaman. Awesome. Fun. Easy. Is it meant to be a one shot wonder game? No, but since it's a single player game, the option is there as a secret for that awesome awe effect. As soon as you take that into an online game perspective. Then it goes in either direction, people think it's cool, or people with shun you for it.

 

 

 

To AlphaHorseman: I feel like you are purposely ignoring some of the points I'm trying to make. What we're suggesting here isn't to take away your choice of the game. No where did I ever state nearly that I'm trying to 'enforce' my style of play on others. We're not trying to remove anything. You're just the ones taking it to extremes.

 

The choice for solo or co-op is not always a choice. To think that is wrong, and unfair. Not everyone has that choice. People find this game hard. People don't have friends at the beginning. Their only option is random game play. Some people have fear of forums, yes. That IS a thing. So they wont even come on here for help. So they turn to random matches, and when they see someone beating the game for them without giving them something to do, like I said to Night, it can go either way. They'll love the help, or get irritated at the fact that the person is just doing everything and not caring at all. A quick band-aid to this would probably just be adding a better group up mechanic related to mastery rank and conclave together or something, but it's not here at the moment.

 

You just admitted that God Mode is fair. Wow. I don't even have anything to say to that. Good job.

 

Corrupted mods do not give enough of a loss for the amount of their gain. Fleeting Expertise is the only mod that even gives a balanced offset. 40 vs 40. 60 vs 60, etc, yet even that is so easily fixed.

 

and yes. It is much easier to abuse on some frames than others, much more so. So, like I've said before, and you seem to not recognize. Something need to change, either the mods, frames, or difficulty of the game.

 

Pretty sure you just answered my question here by not answering it. You mentioned nothing of balance.

 

Leave to find another match for every single time a one shot wonder nuke power house entered the game? New players would just uninstall after a week with the amount of leaving they would have done.. and I wouldn't even put the possibility past the fact that they have. Who wants to buy a new game and then let someone easy mode it for them? That's a horrible new player experience.

 

Also, there isn't a choice for wanting to use corrupted mods or not. They have pretty much become the integrated meta of the game. You recruit people for survival for example, you want a Nekros to desecrate. Guess what, he has no corrupted mods. He has crap range and can only desecrate once per maybe 30 seconds or so. Guess what? That team is going to end up calling that Nekros a 'bad' Nekros because he can't keep the air supply up. It's no longer a matter of choice, when it becomes a necessity to uphold expectations.

 

Key word there. Expectations.

 

If we truly wanted to play the game as we wanted to, there would be no balance. There would be no need to cater to power creep issues or imbalances of the game as to what makes what fair or unfair. If people could truly play the way they wanted to. I could enter a mission. Press 2. Everything would die, all loot would be collected, and would be magically teleported to extraction. It's something people would do. Is it fair? Of course not, but that is exactly why balance needs to be made to some things.

 

I'll just simply put this the way you put it. How do you know whats good for the game? Are you a DE? I certainly hope not, since you apparently like god mode and think it's fair.

[Shuuro]

This I can get behind.

 

In terms of theorycrafting the concepts of limitations, obstacles, and rewards, though...  I'm almost sure this can be put into a mathematic equation.

 

Perhaps...  Limitation +/x Obstacles = Challenge

 

Challenge + Reward = Felt Value; if Challenge increases but Reward is constant, Felt Value decreases

 

If limitations stay the same, and obstacles are increased, there is greater challenge.  If both obstacles and limitation increases, challenge increases massively, too.  Whether limitation and obstacle should be additive or multiplicative, I'm not entirely sure.

 

If a greater challenge is met with a greater reward, there is greater felt value.

 

So, at the moment, vault runs have no limitation beyond a slightly hindering Dragon Key, of which the obstacles aren't any greater.  Thus, challenge is not much more than normal missions.  Only other obstacle is finding that vault.  At the end of the mission, if RNG isn't favorable, the Felt Value is worse than if RNG gives a valuable reward.  Thus, for the Challenge, vault runs feel grindy and boring (if the game play isn't enjoyed).

 

Nightmare mode: increased limitations (though, low grav, health vampire, energy drain, nor lethal exploding barrels are really that heavy of limitations) along with increased obstacles (in the form of just higher level, greater damage enemies, which is a bit dry), does not make much of a challenge, especially to players that can revert to just using good gaming marksmanship.  The challenge isn't always greater than regular missions, and the reward is behind RNG, of which even if RNG is favorable, the Felt Value isn't as high as it could be.  At the same time, if the challenge is constant, but RNG isn't favorable, Felt Value can be worse than that of playing a normal mission.

 

If we were introduced to a way to set increased limitations for any mission we're playing (where the limitations were on warframe powers and perhaps the way some weapons handle, like slower melee swing speed, lower fire rate, or higher reload time) and increased obstacles (given that the obstacle increase wasn't just higher level enemies, but enemies with creative and unique mechanics, such as immunity to CC or nukes), and was met with definite rewards not hidden behind an RNG wall, the equations basically point to a much greater Felt Value each time the game mode is run (such as increased credit and resource drops, increased affinity gain, and with completion of the mission given mini-objectives, getting a specific guaranteed reward, much like getting a Force vs Cosmic Specter in rescue missions).

 

This I am entirely for.  It doesn't change normal game play, and gives veterans and other players the option to easily play any mission in a way that increases challenge and maybe even emphasizes teamwork.  In fact, I would LOVE to see something like that.  It takes the best parts of some of the other missions, like Dark Sectors and Rescue, and puts them into one package as an option.  In fact, I have been kinda waiting for another even like Gate Crash, but maybe even increases the limitation of weapon handling...or even the limitation of increased gravity.

 

What's even better with this idea is that it takes things the developers have already implemented.  It's optional, can be entirely implemented, and would challenge players to change the way they play the game for unique rewards...perhaps rewards that can be traded with additional value for those that risked the limitations and obstacles...for a reward that does not decrease Felt Value at any point due to RNG.  Corrupted mods and Nightmare mods kind of have this value, but the Felt Reward isn't there.  And if some of the rewards are trade-able, people who don't want to run those missions can still get those items of value, just like it currently is with vault and nightmare.

 

Psh, if there's a petition on something like that, I'll put my name on it.

 

This I can completely agree with. Like I said before, a difficulty setting. Which hence, it is a setting so therefore optional by nature, would be great. It would satisfy a lot of peoples needs and desires in the game as it currently is.

[MechaKnight]

This thread can still be used to discuss the nature of ability spam, however...

 

For the difficulty expansion concept, I've started a thread in General.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/381628-warframe-development-difficulty-expansion/

 

It was a great idea and I just went running with it. This thread can shape up over time. I really do want a self-imposed difficulty setting implemented. No more guilt over wrecking missions because I posses heavy end-game builds. I can just play around an average power level and be rewarded for it. We can do it in teams and find a kind of expansion to this game.

Edited January 8, 2015 by MechaKnight

[Azawarau]

In a nutshell, there was a huge debate/discussion over whether warframe nuke powers should be nerfed to Line of Sight (LoS) and/or an anti-spam controlling system be introduced.  There were those for the freedom to spam powers as much as felt enjoyable, and there were those that felt the game needed to hinder spamming and encourage players to use other methods to succeed in missions.  Opinions and facts were shared in immense detail.

 

The idea that both parties seem to agree on that would give everyone what they're asking for is a difficulty selection for each mission.  In each mission, players can choose between some difficulty levels, from normal upwards.  The higher the difficulty selection, the less duration/strength/reach/efficiency warframe powers have, along with lower shields, health, and even possibly changes in weapon handling mechanics, like higher reload speeds.  Enemies and levels will also have more mechanics, like a Hardcore boss will have moves its Normal counterpart does not, and/or levels will reincorporate broken lights and other traps; all as oppose to just higher level bullet sponges.  In turn for higher difficulty, credits, resources and mods have increased drop rates, and greater XP gain.  There would also be potential for gaining special BPs and stuff based on mission challenge(s) and not RNG (such as how one gains a Cosmic specter over a Force specter).

 

As stated by MechaKnight, a new thread will probably be started to refine this and hopefully garner mass support.  With proper implementation, the difficulty options for missions would further balance feelings of reward for effort, give new challenge to veterans, and perhaps even breathe new life into the game for many that are burned out from RNG walls and endless mission types.

Im not a fan of 4 to win but restricting so much as health and shields seems far

 

Ill be watching out for the thread

 

Experience and rewards should be heavily considered for both modes

[MechaKnight]

In a nutshell, there was a huge debate/discussion over whether warframe nuke powers should be nerfed to Line of Sight (LoS) and/or an anti-spam controlling system be introduced.  There were those for the freedom to spam powers as much as felt enjoyable, and there were those that felt the game needed to hinder spamming and encourage players to use other methods to succeed in missions.  Opinions and facts were shared in immense detail.

 

The idea that both parties seem to agree on that would give everyone what they're asking for is a difficulty selection for each mission.  In each mission, players can choose between some difficulty levels, from normal upwards.  The higher the difficulty selection, the less duration/strength/reach/efficiency warframe powers have, along with lower shields, health, and even possibly changes in weapon handling mechanics, like higher reload speeds.  Enemies and levels will also have more mechanics, like a Hardcore boss will have moves its Normal counterpart does not, and/or levels will reincorporate broken lights and other traps; all as oppose to just higher level bullet sponges.  In turn for higher difficulty, credits, resources and mods have increased drop rates, and greater XP gain.  There would also be potential for gaining special BPs and stuff based on mission challenge(s) and not RNG (such as how one gains a Cosmic specter over a Force specter).

 

As stated by MechaKnight, a new thread will probably be started to refine this and hopefully garner mass support.  With proper implementation, the difficulty options for missions would further balance feelings of reward for effort, give new challenge to veterans, and perhaps even breathe new life into the game for many that are burned out from RNG walls and endless mission types.

Thanks a lot. This really helps explain how I feel about the situation. We veterans don't feel challenged, and the whole cycle of decimating the game this effortlessly with brick-stupid brick walls with guns as our sole obstacle is really tiring. You summed it very well: optional challenge in the form of self-nerf and tactical AI challenge for the goal of better and more direct rewards.

[V0LK]

I don't like "Difficulty settings" method. Don't wanna have a wall of artificial difficulty to protect my fun out of power spammers. Why should I hide in some secret spam-less haven? I just wanna jump in and shoot some dudes, without someone hitting 4 every two seconds.

[Azawarau]

I don't like "Difficulty settings" method. Don't wanna have a wall of artificial difficulty to protect my fun out of power spammers. Why should I hide in some secret spam-less haven? I just wanna jump in and shoot some dudes, without someone hitting 4 every two seconds.

That can be addressed

 

To be fair here

 

Theres alot of artificial skill and artificail entertainent on the players side

 

When youre just hitting 4 youre not really doing anything

[geninrising]

Thanks guys for helping out an extremely frustrated Warlord(or Hokage in my case ^^)

 

Looking forward to more feedback and continued discussion regarding this matter.

[Nighttide77]

I don't like "Difficulty settings" method. Don't wanna have a wall of artificial difficulty to protect my fun out of power spammers. Why should I hide in some secret spam-less haven? I just wanna jump in and shoot some dudes, without someone hitting 4 every two seconds.

 

One way or the other, presently you always will run the risk of joining pugs that nuke spam.  The only ways to stop the chances of having that happening are to 1) not join pugs and team up with a specific group, or 2) solo.

 

This thread started with discussing the idea of taking away everyone's choice to be able to build for nuke spamming.  This way the portion of players who don't like it don't have to deal with players who enjoy it.  As well, it would impose a limitation of game play that would keep some players from doing what they enjoyed having the freedom to do.  There really isn't a way to make absolutely everyone happy without segregating the two groups.

 

If you see this as an artificial wall, then you also probably miss out on the fact that the "difficulty settings" solution provides for added in-game rewards.

 

The only way to make everyone happy is for nukers to play with other nukers, and for anti-nukers to play with other anti-nukers.  Nukers don't want to stop nuking, and anti-nukers don't want to nuke their game or let others do so.  There is a gray area, but unless there's a segregation of some sort, the anti-nukers won't be happy, while nukers just keep doing what they do.

[Nighttide77]

One way or the other, presently you always will run the risk of joining pugs that nuke spam.  The only ways to stop the chances of having that happening are to 1) not join pugs and team up with a specific group, or 2) solo.

 

This thread started with discussing the idea of taking away everyone's choice to be able to build for nuke spamming.  This way the portion of players who don't like it don't have to deal with players who enjoy it.  As well, it would impose a limitation of game play that would keep some players from doing what they enjoyed having the freedom to do.  There really isn't a way to make absolutely everyone happy without segregating the two groups.

 

If you see this as an artificial wall, then you also probably miss out on the fact that the "difficulty settings" solution provides for added in-game rewards.

 

The only way to make everyone happy is for nukers to play with other nukers, and for anti-nukers to play with other anti-nukers.  Nukers don't want to stop nuking, and anti-nukers don't want to nuke their game or let others do so.  There is a gray area, but unless there's a segregation of some sort, the anti-nukers won't be happy, while nukers just keep doing what they do.

 

Oh, and...looking back on this...if any nuker would want to be able to nuke in a greater difficulty setting for the rewards, they're totally missing the point of "higher difficulty" and I, personally, couldn't help justify their attitude.

[geninrising]

One way or the other, presently you always will run the risk of joining pugs that nuke spam.  The only ways to stop the chances of having that happening are to 1) not join pugs and team up with a specific group, or 2) solo.

 

This thread started with discussing the idea of taking away everyone's choice to be able to build for nuke spamming.  This way the portion of players who don't like it don't have to deal with players who enjoy it.  As well, it would impose a limitation of game play that would keep some players from doing what they enjoyed having the freedom to do.  There really isn't a way to make absolutely everyone happy without segregating the two groups.

 

If you see this as an artificial wall, then you also probably miss out on the fact that the "difficulty settings" solution provides for added in-game rewards.

 

The only way to make everyone happy is for nukers to play with other nukers, and for anti-nukers to play with other anti-nukers.  Nukers don't want to stop nuking, and anti-nukers don't want to nuke their game or let others do so.  There is a gray area, but unless there's a segregation of some sort, the anti-nukers won't be happy, while nukers just keep doing what they do.

Unfortunately this looks to be our best solution. However I would still rather they actually balance the gameplay to be equal rather than splitting our community into 2 or three parts. With that said, the whole difficulty thing that MechaKnight has suggested would at least greatly benefit players that did not use the energy loophole that DE is loathe to fix.

 

Oh, and...looking back on this...if any nuker would want to be able to nuke in a greater difficulty setting for the rewards, they're totally missing the point of "higher difficulty" and I, personally, couldn't help justify their attitude.

+1

[V0LK]

The thing is - I mostly like default game difficulty. I like when you don't need to spend half a mag to kill an enemy, I like it when warframes can take a punch. I like it when Slash Dash actually kills someone. I like to feel overpowered, in a way. I have absolutely nothing against OP-nuke-entire-tileset abilities. I don't like it when nuke happens every second.

So if the only way to avoid spammers will be to go more difficult, where enemies will have more health, even more powers will become obsolete, where even more weapons and warframes be less viable - that game I will not enjoy. Look at Nightmare gamemode - do we have many liberties there? Rhino is 90% of success.

Also if that spam-less game will have better rewards, spammers will come there. They will. They'll find a way to abuse something, players always will. Unless DE adds cooldowns.

 

We have tactical alerts, right? Why wouldn't DE just add a cooldown mechanic to these alerts, like they do with lowered conclave, as a test run?

[Nighttide77]

 

The thing is - I mostly like default game difficulty. I like when you don't need to spend half a mag to kill an enemy, I like it when warframes can take a punch. I like it when Slash Dash actually kills someone. I like to feel overpowered, in a way. I have absolutely nothing against OP-nuke-entire-tileset abilities. I don't like it when nuke happens every second.

So if the only way to avoid spammers will be to go more difficult, where enemies will have more health, even more powers will become obsolete, where even more weapons and warframes be less viable - that game I will not enjoy. Look at Nightmare gamemode - do we have many liberties there? Rhino is 90% of success.

Also if that spam-less game will have better rewards, spammers will come there. They will. They'll find a way to abuse something, players always will. Unless DE adds cooldowns.

 

We have tactical alerts, right? Why wouldn't DE just add a cooldown mechanic to these alerts, like they do with lowered conclave, as a test run?

 

Where in the descriptions of the increased difficulty did it say that we'd like to see decreased weapon damage in any way?  Only powers would have their power strength nerfed in higher difficulty, making nuke builds fairly useless, but powers with utility, like Loki's Radial Disarm, would still maintain their utility.  It'd be very much like Operation Gate Crash.  In higher difficulty levels, we discussed maybe weapon mechanics would be effected, but definitely not their damage output.  Further, we didn't want enemies to just be higher level bullet sponges, we wanted to see more level mechanics and enemy mechanics.  Higher difficulty, in the discussion, does not necessarily equal tougher enemies, unless the enemies are equipped with more mechanics that make them more of a true challenge.

 

Did you find anyone in Operation Gate Crash that was able to just spam their powers after their power strength and power range were massively nerfed from the extra difficulty towards completion of the event?  My Blade Storm did nothing on the mission that completed it all.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Nighttide77

[Nighttide77]

heh, this whole discussion made me so self conscious.  I was running invasion missions with pugs, and I was almost concerned that any of the pugs would tell me they're getting upset with me spamming Blade Storm, lol.

[geninrising]

Thus far this whole thread has done much to assure me of my point. There are those that support p42w as viable. There are those that it kills. 

 

The matter is a split decision however the majority of individuals that have weighed in are advocates of BALANCE. We are not saying you cannot build for powers, what we are asking for is a way that we can BOTH be happy and a way we can BOTH actually PLAY. 

 

Currently the whole P42W mentality extends all the way to the highest tier content that we can possibly play, this is discouraging in its entirety to players that do not wish to do so. Currently in order to be effective in any t4 content you need to virtually have a corrupted power build focused around maximizing one ability, otherwise you are not playing it in a viable manner.

 

What we need is for these things to be brought in balance so that both physical and power gameplay can co-exist without the ability for one to completely negate the other UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

 

A p42w player should never be able to prevent the rest of their team from participating in the mission at all, that is not a gameplay mechanic, that is a broken concept that even the DEvs are concerned about. These players abuse an energy gating mechanic that was designed to prevent overbearing power usage.

 

DE has already been quoted multiple times stating that this is abuse, they just have not figured out a way to curb the behavior YET. It will happen, the only thing we can continue to do is weigh in with our thoughts and ideas to ensure they continue to be reminded of the need for balance.

[TwiceDead]

I don't want to see a difficulty system. It just serves to split the community.

 

We already have Nightmare mode for that, although DE has been very reluctant in doing anything with the Nightmare mode...

 

If they'd take some time to expand on that, make that more interesting, then it could work since HEY it's already there, but they are not doing anything with it, it's just there. Once you have all the mods from Nightmare mode, you have no reason to go back to it.

 

EDIT: 
Nightmare mode is also dependant on RNG to decide in what way to screw the player, which is a bad way to handle difficulty. 

 

With that said, yes I want to see the 4 spam nerfed and/or limited. 

Edited January 10, 2015 by TwiceDead