Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[Tsukinoki]

@AndryB94
I am wondering what you're thoughts are on either, or a combination of both, of these ideas:
A) The rollers stun is treated more like an ability meaning that they can stun once every 3 to 5 seconds.  The rest of the time they can still damage players and such but they cant stun anyone until the CD finishes.  Like the rest of the mobs abilities.
B) Diminishing returns on stuns added to both player and mob generated stun effects.

[Salganos]

To be fair, there are really only 3 ways of killing enemies in this entire game. Gunplay, Abilities, and Melee.

 

Just because only 2 out of 3 methods are effective doesn't make it bad design.

It's only one out of three much of the time, and then only a fraction of that one, and only a fraction of the other when it is valid.

 

Each full "method" can be quite nuanced.  Rollers have none of that nuance.  They aren't even immediately deadly most of the time.  Just really stupidly annoying and tedious, to the point where, quite often, the only method left to kill them is the least nuanced method in the game, normally reserved as a last resort.

 

Generally, I hate stunlock.  There is currently no play or counterplay involved with it other than having ridiculous defenses.  I don't even like stunlocking enemies.  It's lame and trivializes them.  Yet one of the only ways to safely deal with disruptor ancients is to stun lock them with charge attacks, and every other way just involves a different form of lockup.  Melee in general is broken too.  Basic attacks with sword type weapons (all I've got right now) are useless as damage against most enemies and are only good for either stunlocking humanoids or stunning them once so they can't interrupt a charge.  This is silly.  Stunlocking is extremely lame and not fun in either direction.

[Salganos]

You should swap "removal" with "replacement".

And sort of...

Or I could swap it with "removal followed by the addition of an enemy that wasn't really mutually exclusive with it anyways". :p

 

I just don't feel like masking my intent on that one. If rollers are outright replaced and not redesigned, technically they will have been removed.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Salganos

[MoonicusMaximus]

It's only one out of three much of the time, and then only a fraction of that one, and only a fraction of the other when it is valid.

 

Each full "method" can be quite nuanced.  Rollers have none of that nuance.  They aren't even immediately deadly most of the time.  Just really stupidly annoying and tedious, to the point where, quite often, the only method left to kill them is the least nuanced method in the game, normally reserved as a last resort.

 

Generally, I hate stunlock.  There is currently no play or counterplay involved with it other than having ridiculous defenses.  I don't even like stunlocking enemies.  It's lame and trivializes them.  Yet one of the only ways to safely deal with disruptor ancients is to stun lock them with charge attacks, and every other way just involves a different form of lockup.  Melee in general is broken too.  Basic attacks with sword type weapons (all I've got right now) are useless as damage against most enemies and are only good for either stunlocking humanoids or stunning them once so they can't interrupt a charge.  This is silly.  Stunlocking is extremely lame and not fun in either direction.

 

Enemies designed to harass instead of outright kill aren't badly designed either. They are just made with a different purpose in mind. Rollers having the ability to stagger you for a half second isn't bad when you consider that it is very easy to kill them with proper skill, or if you do not have that, an ability.

 

They should not have the ability to stunlock, however, that much I agree with. Change the stunlock mechanic, not the unit which would normally be a fine addition.

Edited May 9, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Salganos]

Enemies designed to harass instead of outright kill aren't badly designed either. They are just made with a different purpose in mind. Rollers having the ability to stagger you for a half second isn't bad when you consider that it is very easy to kill them with proper skill, or if you do not have that, an ability.

 

They should not have the ability to stunlock, however, that much I agree with. Change the stunlock mechanic, not the unit which would normally be a fine addition.

 

Make it possible to actually avoid their stun by jumping and all of that combined could suffice.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Make it possible to actually avoid their stun by jumping and all of that combined could suffice.

 

Jumping over them when they leap or just in general? Because I also don't think Rollers should stun on simple touch, only when leaping. And they leap high enough to where Tenno won't outjump the hitbox... I think that much is fine.

Edited May 9, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Salganos]

Jumping over them when they leap or just in general? Because I also don't think Rollers should stun on simple touch, only when leaping. And they leap high enough to where Tenno won't outjump the hitbox... I think that much is fine.

 

They need to be dodgeable though.  Cramped terrain and third person perspective often combine with their speeds to make it nearly impossible for most people to kill them on the first pass.  And a ninja that simply can't evade one simple attack by a ball is a pretty S#&$ty ninja.

[MoonicusMaximus]

They need to be dodgeable though.  Cramped terrain and third person perspective often combine with their speeds to make it nearly impossible for most people to kill them on the first pass.  And a ninja that simply can't evade one simple attack by a ball is a pretty S#&$ty ninja.

 

I sidestep Rollers all the time. It's actually a lot easier to do so than jump over them, what with the unusually long windup for jumps in Warframe.

[AndryB94]

@AndryB94

I am wondering what you're thoughts are on either, or a combination of both, of these ideas:

A) The rollers stun is treated more like an ability meaning that they can stun once every 3 to 5 seconds.  The rest of the time they can still damage players and such but they cant stun anyone until the CD finishes.  Like the rest of the mobs abilities.

B) Diminishing returns on stuns added to both player and mob generated stun effects.

Both of them are good ideas.

[Salganos]

I sidestep Rollers all the time. It's actually a lot easier to do so than jump over them, what with the unusually long windup for jumps in Warframe.

 

If sidestepping them was something that could be reliably done without three meters of space to either side, or at all when more than one come at once...

 

If it's going to retain any stun I feel it should be properly avoidable.  Having access to two dimensions of evasive movement would allow for a level of breathing room much more on par with everything else the Grineer throw out to bypass cover.

[Salganos]

Actually, I'm thinking that rather than rollers just casually stunning me somewhere the Grineer can't take advantage of most of the time, it would make more sense if they tried to knock me out of that place, with some very visible, audible, and evadable wind-up dash-attack or something, non-stacking or with a better knockdown system too (stacked knockdowns are as bad as or worse than stunlocks sometimes).

 

This starts to look like a Shockwave Moa laid an angry egg, though.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Salganos

[MoonicusMaximus]

If sidestepping them was something that could be reliably done without three meters of space to either side, or at all when more than one come at once...

 

If it's going to retain any stun I feel it should be properly avoidable.  Having access to two dimensions of evasive movement would allow for a level of breathing room much more on par with everything else the Grineer throw out to bypass cover.

 

But that's what I'm saying. Currently you can side step them quite easily. Alternatively, their rolling animation shouldn't be able to stun you and you should be able to jump over it, but when a Roller leaps at you, it currently is locked in a forward motion for the duration of that leap, and the leap distance above ground makes jumping over it while it's leaping impossible.

 

It would actually make more sense to to able to duck underneath a leaping Roller. You originally could do it on occasional, but now the that hitboxes are larger, it still hits you.

[RealityMachina]

But that's what I'm saying. Currently you can side step them quite easily.

Question: You are accounting for your own skill level in the game, right? At least thinking of the possibility that perhaps the average player just isn't as good as you?

Edited May 9, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Andazeus]

Let me try to get into a bit more detail on what I think makes the rollers problematic:

 

First off: there is a paradigm in design where loss of control is mechanic that is always perceived as annoying by players. We want to play a character within a game and ideally want to feel like we were this character. Loss of control of the character can quickly dispell the illusion and lessen the immersion and if it happens frequently, it can quickly bring you completely out of the game and cause a large amount of frustration as you believe that your input is no longer connected to the ingame actions.

Staggers, knock downs and other loss of control events are a common mechanic to brake a player's pace and create openings for the enemy. Sometimes they can even beneficial as they force the player to review his situation for a moment, however, no matter what goal they need to accomplish, they should be used *sparingly*.

 

Rollers provide no real danger as they are, but they do provide a major source of annoyance. Their simple pattern do not make them a challenging or interesting enemy.

 

The major question here is: what purpose do they have within the game? Would we miss anything if they were suddenly gone?

 

If we would not miss them, it shows how flawed they are. Enemis like the corpus shield drones add something to the game and make the fight more interesting and demanding a more strategic approach. Even the new fusion moas feel good: they provide a unique challenge (the laser and their two phases), provide a considerable threat but do never feel cheap or annoying.

 

So how would we fix the rollers?

 

For one thing, we would need to reduce the amount of loss of control they cause.

And for the other, they should be easier to dispose of. As they are right now, they are small and fast and do not give you time to aim or to reload if you missed your shot. This is a frustrating combination and only changing one of these aspects could greatly influence our perception on them.

 

Just to give an example, they could be suicide units, rolling towards you and just exploding in your face, eventually even causing some aoe. This would ensure they would only ever stagger you *once* and automatically disposing them if you failed to shoot them before they reach you. This way, there still would be a failure situation the player should try to avoid, but the consequences would be limited and could even be easily tuned by damage numbers, for example.

 

This is just one idea. Of course, there could be other ways to handle them. But I hope I could shed some light on WHY I think they are problematic in their current state.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Question: You are accounting for your own skill level in the game, right? At least thinking of the possibility that perhaps the average player just isn't as good as you?

 

I'm assuming that the average player can, at the very least, aim and move either left or right at the same time, yes. Or just move left or right at all.

 

It's really... not that hard, is it? I mean, shooting them can be difficult. I'm talking about dodging their leaps by moving. When Rollers leap, they can't change direction mid-leap, meaning the path taken is always constant and therefore easy to dodge if you know it's coming.

 

Is that not reasonable?

 

Rollers provide no real danger as they are, but they do provide a major source of annoyance. Their simple pattern do not make them a challenging or interesting enemy.

 

The major question here is: what purpose do they have within the game? Would we miss anything if they were suddenly gone?

 

If we would not miss them, it shows how flawed they are. Enemis like the corpus shield drones add something to the game and make the fight more interesting and demanding a more strategic approach. Even the new fusion moas feel good: they provide a unique challenge (the laser and their two phases), provide a considerable threat but do never feel cheap or annoying.

 

Rollers are annoying, that much is true. They are small, fast, but forgo actually delivering damage to instead attempt to disrupt players. Essentially, Rollers provide the same assistance as Shield Osprey do, but in an aggressive way rather than a defensive way, which I actually think fits the Grineer a bit better. I think Shield Osprey and Leech Osprey are annoying, but they are perceived as less annoying because the Shield Osprey provides support to Corpus by means of passive defense, whereas Leech Osprey provide aggressive support, albeit one easily ignored. The Grineer need a smaller, less tanky support unit that compliments them as well as Ospreys do for the Corpus. I believe that Rollers add the same amount of "make the fight more interesting and demanding a more strategic approach" mechanics as Osprey do, just in a different way.

 

I would not miss Rollers themselves if they were gone, but I would miss the variety in gameplay they provide against Grineer. Half of their difficulty stems from their mobility rather than just upping numbers and being tanky, which is mostly what stock Grineer are.

 

The other half of their difficulty, though, is debatable.

 

For one thing, we would need to reduce the amount of loss of control they cause.

And for the other, they should be easier to dispose of. As they are right now, they are small and fast and do not give you time to aim or to reload if you missed your shot. This is a frustrating combination and only changing one of these aspects could greatly influence our perception on them.

 

Just to give an example, they could be suicide units, rolling towards you and just exploding in your face, eventually even causing some aoe. This would ensure they would only ever stagger you *once* and automatically disposing them if you failed to shoot them before they reach you. This way, there still would be a failure situation the player should try to avoid, but the consequences would be limited and could even be easily tuned by damage numbers, for example.

 

This is just one idea. Of course, there could be other ways to handle them. But I hope I could shed some light on WHY I think they are problematic in their current state.

 

Their ability to stunlock is a problem, and stunlocking across the board should be addressed. There are several really good suggestions about this matter that have already been proposed. Also, as Rollers are now, merely touching them imparts their stagger effect, which is also bothersome as they have the ability to stagger you even when they are not actually attacking you. Rollers seem to rely on their actual Leap attack, which has their little blades extended, when actually engaging the player; it's my belief now that this action, which is actually done fairly infrequently as opposed to rolling around to get into position to perform it again, should be the only way a Roller can stagger you.

 

 

Basically, I don't think they should be changed because they are small and fast, but I do think that some of the stunning and staggering delivery methods need to be toned back. I certainly do not think they should be removed for these reasons.

Edited May 9, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[RealityMachina]

I'm assuming that the average player can, at the very least, aim and move either left or right at the same time, yes. Or just move left or right at all.

 

It's really... not that hard, is it? I mean, shooting them can be difficult. I'm talking about dodging their leaps by moving. When Rollers leap, they can't change direction mid-leap, meaning the path taken is always constant and therefore easy to dodge if you know it's coming.

 

Is that not reasonable?

Well let's see:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemies

85% of the people on that poll have voted that they dislike rollers.

We can either presume that A) They are in fact easy and most Warframe players are incompetent. or B) They are in fact, not easy and most Warframe players aren't that incompetent.

 

Which one do you think Occam's razor would dictate?

[MoonicusMaximus]

Well let's see:

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Enemies

85% of the people on that poll have voted that they dislike rollers.

We can either presume that A) They are in fact easy and most Warframe players are incompetent. or B) They are in fact, not easy and most Warframe players aren't that incompetent.

 

Which one do you think Occam's razor would dictate?

 

The poll states that 85% of people want Rollers changed or removed.

 

I'm in support of some changes. I'm against complete removal, for reasons I have stated. We shouldn't remove them because they just "aren't easy". Low difficulty is something vast majority of players are complaining about.

 

So what's the argument?

Edited May 9, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Crazyon]

I call them Satan-Balls.

Out of my entire squad...Every single one chases me.

[MJ12]

The poll states that 85% of people want Rollers changed or removed.

 

I'm in support of some changes. I'm against complete removal, for reasons I have stated. We shouldn't remove them because they just "aren't easy". Low difficulty is something vast majority of players are complaining about.

 

So what's the argument?

 

He's asking you to answer the question. Do you think that Rollers are easy and 85% of the Warframe playerbase cannot play third person shooters to save their lives or if they aren't actually super-easy and the majority of the playerbase is not laughably incompetent.

 

Also, please provide citations of how 'the vast majority' of players complain about the low difficulty, then prove that those players aren't guys with 10,000+ hours in shooter games who should expect games which aren't exclusively  for the super-hardcore to be easy for them.

[Madotsuki]

He's asking you to answer the question. Do you think that Rollers are easy and 85% of the Warframe playerbase cannot play third person shooters to save their lives or if they aren't actually super-easy and the majority of the playerbase is not laughably incompetent.

 

Also, please provide citations of how 'the vast majority' of players complain about the low difficulty, then prove that those players aren't guys with 10,000+ hours in shooter games who should expect games which aren't exclusively  for the super-hardcore to be easy for them.

And regardless of player skill, if 85% of the Warframe playerbase wants Rollers removed/tweaked, then DE better get on with it. Unless they want to drive off 85% of the playerbase.

[Skoll85]

I don't really have problems with them (rapid fire weapon and cryo ammo makes them laughable), but most people seem to hate them which warrants tweaking. I haven't read through all the suggestions so this might have been posted, but perhaps a short move speed decrease after they do the whole jump stun animation? That would give players the oportunity to kill them after being hit, but still allow them to remain a challenge in packs (as I think they should be).

[MoonicusMaximus]

He's asking you to answer the question. Do you think that Rollers are easy and 85% of the Warframe playerbase cannot play third person shooters to save their lives or if they aren't actually super-easy and the majority of the playerbase is not laughably incompetent.

 

The poll asks players if they feel Rollers need to be tweaked or removed. Unfortunately, these players who voted cannot voice their actual opinion on either direction. So I cannot say whether or not these players who voted that they feel Rollers need to be tweaked or removed wish it so because they aren't actually super-easy and people cannot play, or if they are difficult. It's difficult to gauge anything beyond "this number of players happened upon this particular wiki page and voted in this particular manner". It asks if they need to be tweaked or removed. I considered the question myself when I visited the poll and I voted for yes, because after reading the arguments I now feel Rollers need some tweaks. But I didn't vote yes because I wanted them removed. Those are two very different outcomes, and I'm not sure why they were lumped together in the first place. And because we don't have a chance to differentiate the answers, I cannot give an answer to his question.

 

Also, please provide citations of how 'the vast majority' of players complain about the low difficulty, then prove that those players aren't guys with 10,000+ hours in shooter games who should expect games which aren't exclusively  for the super-hardcore to be easy for them.

 

Pretty much the same citations for Roller woes, beyond this questionable poll; looking at the forums and seeing what people are discussing. Just as people are complaining about Rollers regularly, I am also seeing a lot of people complaining about lacks of challenge. In comparison, I never see a "Warframe is Too Difficult" thread. I see threads saying individual elements like Rollers being too difficult, though. That leads me to believe that, overall, people find the game as a whole to be too easy and lacking in challenge, because people are intrinsically more prone to complain about things being difficult/frustrating than they are things being too easy. I could be wrong, but the evidence seems to prove this much, at least.

 

And regardless of player skill, if 85% of the Warframe playerbase wants Rollers removed/tweaked, then DE better get on with it. Unless they want to drive off 85% of the playerbase.

 

I highly doubt 85% of players will stop playing Warframe because of Roller woes. Highly doubt.

 

But Rollers do need tweaks, that much I agree on. Not complete removal, but tweaks.

 

I don't really have problems with them (rapid fire weapon and cryo ammo makes them laughable), but most people seem to hate them which warrants tweaking. I haven't read through all the suggestions so this might have been posted, but perhaps a short move speed decrease after they do the whole jump stun animation? That would give players the oportunity to kill them after being hit, but still allow them to remain a challenge in packs (as I think they should be).

 

Are you asking for Rollers to slow players after the half-second stagger? Or to remove the stagger and replace with a slow? Because either way is a bit too much. If Rollers only slowed players and didn't disrupt their ability to attack for that half-second, it would be too easy to continue. If they did that, the damage Rollers impart would have to be upped a bit to balance it, because right now Roller damage is pretty pathetic.

Edited May 10, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Skoll85]

 

Are you asking for Rollers to slow players after the half-second stagger? Or to remove the stagger and replace with a slow? Because either way is a bit too much. If Rollers only slowed players and didn't disrupt their ability to attack for that half-second, it would be too easy to continue. If they did that, the damage Rollers impart would have to be upped a bit to balance it, because right now Roller damage is pretty pathetic.

 

Not quite. I was suggesting that after the roller hits/stuns the player that the roller itself slows down for a few seconds to allow players a better chance to shoot them. This would stop (or at least lessen) players from being stunlocked by 1 or 2 rollers, but a group 3-4 rollers would still pose a risk and require teamwork or strategy. Hopefully that clears things up a little.

 

Again I have no probelms with rollers myself, but others seem to have issues in killing them which is a problem.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Not quite. I was suggesting that after the roller hits/stuns the player that the roller itself slows down for a few seconds to allow players a better chance to shoot them. This would stop (or at least lessen) players from being stunlocked by 1 or 2 rollers, but a group 3-4 rollers would still pose a risk and require teamwork or strategy. Hopefully that clears things up a little.

 

Again I have no probelms with rollers myself, but others seem to have issues in killing them which is a problem.

 

From how things are being argued, I've gathered that people aren't actually complaining about Rollers being too difficult to kill because they are small and fast, but because they keep getting stunlocked through various means. Making them slow down upon striking you from a leap attack won't do much if there are 3 of them there rolling around stuck at your feet, constantly staggering you. It just seems like it wouldn't solve the real issue of stunlock.

 

Plus I worry it might make them too easy to hit.

[Trivel]

omg shoot them in the side they are freaking armored. hit weak points.