Petition (Or Discussion!) To Remove Or Redesign The Grineer Rollers

[MJ12]

I absolutely hate rollers and that's why I definitely want them to stay in the game, they are a major annoyance and pain in the &#! and I love it. There are alot of easy to deal with enemies in the game already and these little bastards can really change the flow of a fight, it's something you really have to look out for and get rid of as fast as possible, which I find to be a great gameplay mechanic.

 

I will say this tho, I find it to be kind of irritating that they jump at you when you climb on something. I did that when I first met them, to get away from them and they came "jumping" at me, which I found kind of odd since they are just rolling balls, that shouldn't necessarily be jumping all around on their own. It's always fun if one is hopping on an elevator to get a lift, tho. ^^

 

 

Schoko

 

Yes, they can change the flow of a fight, and you have to prioritize them. What you're confusing that with is interesting gameplay. Because they don't change the flow of a fight in anything remotely resembling an interesting way. All they do is make you hop around looking like a lunatic (or run away like a coward) spraying wildly trying to hit them.

 

Or climbing on boxes. Why the f**k are you climbing on boxes? This isn't f**king Mario Brothers, this is a game about space ninjas in powered armor. Why are you cheesing enemies by trying to get on boxes when you should  be able to take them on head-on (especially given that several of the maps literally do not give you any options to flank enemies)?

 

 

In the last Livestream, they said they want to unlock game difficulties in the future...the Rollers would be a Candidate then for the tougher difficulties. Should solve the Problem.

 

I personally love em and have no problems. And i got stagger-killed the first time i ran into them.

Hey we are space ninjas..if you hear them...get away from the floor....we can wallrun jump do thousands super cool movement things.I would even go further and say make them even more deadlier (but only in conjunction with difficulty settings enabled, so everyone can choose their level of "annoyance" or "challenge"..however you call it.

 

No. Absolutely not. Higher difficulties shouldn't be "Do you enjoy loss of player agency"? That's just insulting players who actually want a legitimately engaging game experience to go along with their challenge by insulting the dislike of agency removal mechanics as "for noobs". And "get away from the floor"? That's an interesting assertion given that it's actually really hard to aim while jumping (and I'm not exactly a super-bad shot) or wallrunning, so basically what it ends up meaning is "stand on a box".

 

And you know what? F**k standing on boxes, that's immersion-breaking crap that enemies should never even incidentally encourage. If you can't enjoy fighting Rollers with no powers on an infinite flat plain, they're a bad enemy.

 

Like I said, false class consciousness. People are endlessly defending a bad enemy because they apparently suffer from the same delusion I did back when Rollers were just introduced (and named Grinders). "They're not so bad, they're just hard for me, when I learn how to fight them they'll become fun". Well something like 40 hours later, I learned how to  fight them, they stopped being hard, and they are utterly and ridiculously unfun. Every minute I fight them I find them less and less fun.

 

This might just be my intolerance for loss of agency mechanics in general after repeated stints with their implementation (and the fact that they can pretty much never be implemented well)

 

 

Some people will never understand that there are enemies that are meant to be easy.

There are enemies that are meant to be challenging.

And there are also some enemies that are meant to be FRUSTRATING.

 

Im gonna be very sad and depressive if rollers, ancient disruptors (yeah, there was a topic to remove them too) and shockwaves/railguns ever get removed. It will definitely kill the game in my eyes.

And a lot of people will definitely quit, because there will be absolutely zero challenge. And this game is casual enough as it is.

 

You must really hate this game and its developers for wanting this game dead.

 

So you may go on with your polls and stuff. I just really hope the developers will never listen.

 

So you're saying that Rollers are designed to be frustrating?

 

That in and of itself is enough reason to remove them, because no enemy should ever be designed to be frustrating. Enemies are here to do four things, mostly:

 

1. Emphasize various game mechanics

 

2. Enforce the use of certain game mechanics

 

3. Require the player to use all or most previously learned game mechanics (bosses)

 

4. Get smashed so the player feels awesome (mooks)

 

Note that nowhere in this list is 'frustrate the player'. Thinking that an enemy should be kept in the game because it frustrates players means it's a terrible enemy which should be removed. Frankly, you and your ilk should probably quit. You're still in that "you have to earn your fun" niche of believing that "challenge" is the only way of making a game good and that the only way to provide "challenge" is frustration.

 

You're right that DE might lose you if they make Rollers less of a frustrating sh*tty enemy. Unfortunately for you, that shouldn't stop them. In fact, they should be encouraged to do it. You sound like the absolute epitome of a toxic customer. "Hey, this relatively casual free to play space ninja game you're playing? It should be a HYPER CHALLENGING FRUSTRATING SLOGFEST BECAUSE I SAY SO." You guys are disconnected from the majority of the playerbase, self-reinforcing because you see threads which go "THIS GAME IS TOO EASY" and ignore the fact that those players are generally the ones with hundreds of hours in the game and not the majority of players, given the hours you've spent in this game and probably in other, similar games.

[Schokoladenonkel]

Again, as a player who wants rollers removed or redesigned, we do not want the game to become &!$$ easy as you keep attempting to paint us as. We want a challenging, fun game that encourages players to think laterally and adapt to different enemies. But we do not want enemies that are pure false-difficulty that only serve to make the game less fun in the name of a 'challenge'. 

 

Kinda hilarious statement. Because you DO want the game to get easier, you want them to change or remove an enemy type, because it gives you  trouble. If you call that "false" difficulty or not doesn't matter. In fact YOU fail to adapt to the enemy and therefore want it changed. To me dealing with rollers+grineer soldiers is alot more fun then just dealing with grineer soldiers. There are several ways to deal with rollers, you just seem to not get them or fail at doing it.

 

Also the term false difficulty is probably one of the dumbest things I have heard in a while. What you mean is "cheap" not false.

[Schokoladenonkel]

Yes, they can change the flow of a fight, and you have to prioritize them. What you're confusing that with is interesting gameplay. Because they don't change the flow of a fight in anything remotely resembling an interesting way. All they do is make you hop around looking like a lunatic (or run away like a coward) spraying wildly trying to hit them.

 

Or climbing on boxes. Why the f**k are you climbing on boxes? This isn't f**king Mario Brothers, this is a game about space ninjas in powered armor. Why are you cheesing enemies by trying to get on boxes when you should  be able to take them on head-on (especially given that several of the maps literally do not give you any options to flank enemies)?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here we have a good example of why you have problems with this enemy. All they make you do is hop around and spray wildly? If that's the case it's no wonder you have problems dealing with them. There are alot of skills, moves and tactics to deal with them instead of crying on the forums with ungodly long posts try to find some ways to deal with them ingame.

 

Also, you're totally right: wallrunning, front and backflipping to reach higher ground and deal with enemies from there, nothing ninja about that. I lold.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Schokoladenonkel

[AndryB94]

There are alot of skills, moves and tactics to deal with them

 

By that you mean 1) shoot at them until they're dead 2) use an AoE ability to kill all of them... Right? Because I can't see many alternatives. Jump attack isn't that effective and chances are you'll be interrupted while landing.

[Schokoladenonkel]

By that you mean 1) shoot at them until they're dead 2) use an AoE ability to kill all of them... Right? Because I can't see many alternatives. Jump attack isn't that effective and chances are you'll be interrupted while landing.

 

Other then just shooting or using AoEs, try:

 

Dodging, a step to the side in the right moment will do, alot of players don't seem to know you can actually EVADE them and just stand there to get hit

Using other skills that help with them ( Iron Skin, Decoy, Invisibility, Snow Globe, etc.)

Using moves to get to higher ground

Using ice dmg mods when you know you're gonna face them. This also applies for your sentinels, they hit automatically and will apply the effect, which makes them quite handy, when facing rollers

Bringing one weapon specifically to deal with them

Depends on weapon:

Slide attack

Charge attack 

Jump attack } all of these work fairly well but depend on the melee weapon you have equipped and they take some SKILL (not to much tho) to pull off, I know its the one thing people don't want to be an option when dealing with enemies

 

Other then that I can only give the tipp to shoot at where they are going, not where they are at, it makes it a hell of alot easier to hit'em, just try it. Also they have a very distinct sound and are easy to hear so you know when they will be coming.

 

So, I mean come on, there are loads of ways to take countermeasures, I have no problem with them, why should you?

 

 

Schoko

 

 

Edit: Also, I will not deny that the stunlock they can do is a problem and needs to be adjusted, but that's not an issue of the roller, but of the general game mechanics.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Schokoladenonkel

[AndryB94]

Dodging, a step to the side in the right moment will do, alot of players don't seem to know you can actually EVADE them and just stand there to get hit

Using other skills that help with them ( Iron Skin, Decoy, Invisibility, Snow Globe, etc.)

Using moves to get to higher ground

Using ice dmg mods when you know you're gonna face them

Bringing one weapon specifically to deal with them

Depends on weapon:

Slide attack

Charge attack 

Jump attack } all of these work fairly well but depend on the melee weapon you have equipped and they take some SKILL (not to much tho) to pull off, I know its the one thing people don't want to be an option when dealing with enemies

- Dodging is only effective with only one roller and without many enemies around.

- As a Mag user, I found there's not many skills except for my Crush that I can use.

- Sure. I'm going to just.... Pile up on boxes. Great.

- Last time I met them was over a week ago. Back then, I didn't have freeze mods.

- Slide attack can be staggered IIRC.

- Charge attack won't really hit them, not with a heavy weapon anyway (I use Gram).

- Jump attack is only effective if you hit them on the side, without being staggered as you go back down.

All of the tactics you listed, except for abilities and piling on boxes, are only effective when you have no more than two rollers around you.

Also, I don't really have a problem with rollers. I've never died to one and I've hardly ever been stunlocked by one. I also don't see a roller since... Ages. I just don't like them as they are right now. Call them all you like, I find them unfun. That's it.

[Schokoladenonkel]

- Dodging is only effective with only one roller and without many enemies around.

- As a Mag user, I found there's not many skills except for my Crush that I can use.

- Sure. I'm going to just.... Pile up on boxes. Great.

- Last time I met them was over a week ago. Back then, I didn't have freeze mods.

- Slide attack can be staggered IIRC.

- Charge attack won't really hit them, not with a heavy weapon anyway (I use Gram).

- Jump attack is only effective if you hit them on the side, without being staggered as you go back down.

All of the tactics you listed, except for abilities and piling on boxes, are only effective when you have no more than two rollers around you.

Also, I don't really have a problem with rollers. I've never died to one and I've hardly ever been stunlocked by one. I also don't see a roller since... Ages. I just don't like them as they are right now. Call them all you like, I find them unfun. That's it.

 

You are completely nitpicking here and always using a suggestion that won't work for YOU (cause of your Frame, Weapons, Skill, whatever)in a particular situation,completely ignoring that there are a number of working suggestions for whatever situation, besides your argument for not going onto high ground being that you don't want to and your argument to not use freeze mods is that you didn't have any? Sounds legit and not like someone crying about rollers who is new to the game and is not adapting to an enemy at all... :/

 

Edit: However I will bail from this conversation now, because I said what I wanted to and I guess I'm not going to change people's minds about rollers discussing and theorizing situations, I made some suggestions of how to deal with them and will leave it to you to try them or ignore them.

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Schoko

Edited May 13, 2013 by Schokoladenonkel

[TenStorms]

You guys are disconnected from the majority of the playerbase, self-reinforcing because you see threads which go "THIS GAME IS TOO EASY" and ignore the fact that those players are generally the ones with hundreds of hours in the game and not the majority of players, given the hours you've spent in this game and probably in other, similar games.

Stop speaking for others.

And the most important part...

STOP speaking for me...

Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they...

Edited May 13, 2013 by Ten_Storms

[Mietz]

- Dodging is only effective with only one roller and without many enemies around.

- As a Mag user, I found there's not many skills except for my Crush that I can use.

- Sure. I'm going to just.... Pile up on boxes. Great.

- Last time I met them was over a week ago. Back then, I didn't have freeze mods.

- Slide attack can be staggered IIRC.

- Charge attack won't really hit them, not with a heavy weapon anyway (I use Gram).

- Jump attack is only effective if you hit them on the side, without being staggered as you go back down.

All of the tactics you listed, except for abilities and piling on boxes, are only effective when you have no more than two rollers around you.

Also, I don't really have a problem with rollers. I've never died to one and I've hardly ever been stunlocked by one. I also don't see a roller since... Ages. I just don't like them as they are right now. Call them all you like, I find them unfun. That's it.

 

-Mag can Pull rollers and destroy them with fall/collision damage. In fact you can stagger other units by pulling the roller into them.

-Mag can put bullet attractor on the roller and make it extremely easy to hit

-Mag can use crush

-3/4 Mag skills work against rollers.

-Get freeze mods

-Slide Attack can not be staggered, you have invincibility frames while slashing.

-Charge attack can hit them as long as you use dual weapons where the cone is 180°

-Smash Attack works, especially with AOE effects like Heat Swords

-You can wallrun and shoot at the roller. in fact one of the mastery rank tests is about hitting a small target while wallrunning, i wonder why that is.

[RealityMachina]

I like how all the suggestions so far are either A) Require a player to grind for a damn while in order to get the warframe, and then grind some more to get the right power (IE why is it these enemies should require certain stuff to beat when pretty much every other regular enemy in the game does not), or B) Seems to be completely ignoring Occam's razor and instead assume anybody complaining about the frustration about the rollers are just idiots who need to lrn2play.

 

Wait, did I say like? I mean holy S#&$ the Marxist false class consciousness thing fits perfectly here.

Edited May 13, 2013 by RealityMachina

[AndryB94]

You are completely nitpicking here and always using a suggestion that won't work for YOU (cause of your Frame, Weapons, Skill, whatever)in a particular situation,completely ignoring that there are a number of working suggestions for whatever situation, besides your argument for not going onto high ground being that you don't want to and your argument to not use freeze mods is that you didn't have any? Sounds legit and not like someone crying about rollers who is new to the game and is not adapting to an enemy at all... :/

 

Edit: However I will bail from this conversation now, because I said what I wanted to and I guess I'm not going to change people's minds about rollers discussing and theorizing situations, I made some suggestions of how to deal with them and will leave it to you to try them or ignore them.

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Schoko

Ehm... okay. I just mentioned I didn't have any *real* problem with rollers as I am not actually a roller victim. Not that much anyway. I just don't like them.

On a sidenote, I've been playing this game for enough time. If I was with friends I am certain Rollers wouldn't have been an issue, but sadly I am forced to play solo because of the stupid college firewall and their speed at unblocking ports. But OKAY, end of conversation.

 

 

-Mag can Pull rollers and destroy them with fall/collision damage. In fact you can stagger other units by pulling the roller into them.

-Mag can put bullet attractor on the roller and make it extremely easy to hit

-Mag can use crush

-3/4 Mag skills work against rollers.

-Get freeze mods

-Slide Attack can not be staggered, you have invincibility frames while slashing.

-Charge attack can hit them as long as you use dual weapons where the cone is 180°

-Smash Attack works, especially with AOE effects like Heat Swords

-You can wallrun and shoot at the roller. in fact one of the mastery rank tests is about hitting a small target while wallrunning, i wonder why that is.

- I didn't know that. Thanks.

- True. But it's a bit of a waste for 75 energy and one single roller, in my own opinion.

- Yes. I said that before.

- Fair enough.

- *Now* I got freeze mods.... Finally.

- I also didn't know that. Thanks for the information.

- Same as above. As far as I can remember I tried to use a charge attack with my Gram and it didn't work. Besides, it's bleedingly slow.

- I know it does, my point was that unless you land on the side you are likely to be staggered as you go down. In fact, that's how I dealt with them some times - I jump-attacked down, with my Gram (and, iirc, freeze mod), rinsed and repeated.

- True. However, not all rooms have perfectly flat walls. I also have minor lag and have found that wallrunning/walljumping, especially if trying to shoot something in the meantime, isn't extremly easy for me. I suppose I'll have to practise in general.

Now, if everybody was as nice and with patience to explain like Mietz here, it'd be great.

Not saying you're not like that, Schoko. I just feel somewhat attacked by you.

Edited May 13, 2013 by AndryB94

[Schokoladenonkel]

Now, if everybody was as nice and with patience to explain like Mietz here, it'd be great.

Not saying you're not like that, Schoko. I just feel somewhat attacked by you.

 

Yeah, guess you're right. My post with suggestions was nothing like that...

[AndryB94]

Yeah, guess you're right. My post with suggestions was nothing like that...

I meant that he took the time to look through all of my replies (to your suggestions) and answered them. In essence, he told me "Hey, you're wrong - you can actually do this" or "Well, you can also do this, since you didn't mention it" instead of just saying "Wow, you're just being a little kid, QQing over rollers".

Edited May 13, 2013 by AndryB94

[Systematyc]

The problem is with the lag not with the rollers, if you have 2-3 rollers attacking you, the lag will make impossible to hit them.

[AndryB94]

The problem is with the lag not with the rollers, if you have 2-3 rollers attacking you, the lag will make impossible to hit them.

Being laggy makes it all worse, I can agree with that. Especially when it comes to aiming and timing hits.

[MoonicusMaximus]

I like how all the suggestions so far are either A) Require a player to grind for a damn while in order to get the warframe, and then grind some more to get the right power (IE why is it these enemies should require certain stuff to beat when pretty much every other regular enemy in the game does not), or B) Seems to be completely ignoring Occam's razor and instead assume anybody complaining about the frustration about the rollers are just idiots who need to lrn2play.

 

Wait, did I say like? I mean holy S#&$ the Marxist false class consciousness thing fits perfectly here.

 

Actually, nobody is saying you are forced to use these specific warframes because a majority of the ways you fight Rollers through mobility and such are shared across all frames. And a majority of the thread are looking for ways to alter Rollers to alleviate their frustration with them instead of foolishly calling for a complete removal, or giving good advice to other players about ways of overcoming their current iteration rather than simply telling them to "get better".

Edited May 13, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Eurhetemec]

The main problem with Rollers is that they make the game seem to change from being about being a Space Ninja who is awesome into being some kind of clumsy space-dude who needs to hide on a box or exploit geometry or the like to kill them. They are also not a threat damage-wise, only in terms of tripping you up for other enemies, so a bunch of them on their own (as one often sees) are just annoying, rather than in any way threatening.

 

They certainly thus need a redesign if they are to support the central gameplay ideas of Warframe.

 

I'd suggest making them have less HP, larger hit boxes, be a little slower, and only do damage or stagger when they actually attack (i.e. leap w/blades, not just touch), but to do a lot MORE damage. Turn them into a threat rather than annoyance but make them practical to deal with.

[RealityMachina]

Actually, nobody is saying you are forced to use these specific warframes because a majority of the ways you fight Rollers through mobility and such are shared across all frames. And a majority of the thread are looking for ways to alter Rollers to alleviate their frustration with them instead of foolishly calling for a complete removal, or giving good advice to other players about ways of overcoming their current iteration rather than simply telling them to "get better".

See this?

 

The part where you imply people who would rather not deal with inherently frustrating enemies in the first place are fools?

 

Yeah I'm sorry but unless you're actually an alien who's playing one of our Earthling made games to get a sense of how humans interact with each other, this tends to be a completely normal reaction. As it turns out, people who dislike being frustrated with their games because of fake difficulty...tend to like the parts causing fake difficulty to be removed!

 

And honestly most of the advice given still really sounds like its being presumed that people who dislike rollers as is simply dislike them because they have no idea how to play it. If I'm wrong, then I suggest working on your wording.

[Tsukinoki]

@RealityMachina
There are a few things that could be done to remove the fake difficulty and make the enemy much less frustrating to fight.  And here are the main suggestions:

1) Make the stun and ability with a CD of 3 to 5 seconds where it can attack but not stun again
2) Make stuns have diminishing returns for both players and enemies meaning that after a while of being chain staggered/stunned you'll have a period of time where you cant be stunned to deal with the targets causing the stun.
3) Make it so that rollers can only stun with blades out and doing a leap attack so that they cant brush by you and stagger you, or just roll you against a box for infinite stun.

All Moonicus is saying is that he believes that people are foolish to call for the complete removal of an enemy who, if they can fix the stunlock issues, would be a valid addition to the grineer forces.

[MoonicusMaximus]

See this?

 

The part where you imply people who would rather not deal with inherently frustrating enemies in the first place are fools?

 

I implied no such thing. I did say that it was foolish to remove unfun game elements completely instead of attempting to fix them and make them more fun and less frustrating. Because in the first case, you remove content ENTIRELY on a game, and in the latter, you simply make said content more entertaining. Do you honestly think removing Rollers completely instead of attempting to make them more fun is a good thing? And if you do, what is your line of reasoning for doing such a heavy-handed thing?

 

Yeah I'm sorry but unless you're actually an alien who's playing one of our Earthling made games to get a sense of how humans interact with each other, this tends to be a completely normal reaction. As it turns out, people who dislike being frustrated with their games because of fake difficulty...tend to like the parts causing fake difficulty to be removed!

 

People respond negatively upon hearing they have bears in the woods behind their house.

 

That isn't a good reason to burn the woods down to avoid bears completely.

 

Instead I'd imagine they simply would like bears to stun less often.

 

And honestly most of the advice given still really sounds like its being presumed that people who dislike rollers as is simply dislike them because they have no idea how to play it. If I'm wrong, then I suggest working on your wording.

 

You presume too much. Some people may not have known that Mag's bullet attractor worked on Rollers or that crouching spin attacks had invincibility frames, and it presumes nothing but lack of knowledge, not of skill. It was good advice.

Edited May 13, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[GoneM4d]

Everyone imagine a game where there is no challenge  Mechwarrior series with only 1 weapon and everyone has the same mech. Tribes series with only 1 armor type and 2 weapons. Ghost recon with only 1 class. Call of duty with only 1 weapon, Borderlands with only 2 enemy types, Left for dead with only 1 enemy type and finally Serious Sam series with only 1 enemy type. VARIETY IS GOOD!BEING CHALLENGED IS GOOD! Just because YOU and FEW others are having issue with it does not mean that it needs to be fixing. As of this moment you do not have good enough argument to have them nerfed. The only argument you have is being stunnlocked. The only way you get stunnlocked its if all of the rollers don't get stuck on walls or stairs and you have not been killing them but only collecting them. It's your own damn fault that you suck not games fault. Now man the F*** up and delete this pointless thread.

Edited May 13, 2013 by GoneM4d

[RealityMachina]

I implied no such thing.

If you truly believe this you seriously need to work on how you parse things then.

[ValhaHazred]

I'd suggest making them have less HP, larger hit boxes, be a little slower, and only do damage or stagger when they actually attack (i.e. leap w/blades, not just touch), but to do a lot MORE damage. Turn them into a threat rather than annoyance but make them practical to deal with.

 

I like this solution, particularly the last part. Why would just touching them stagger anyway? They aren't going that fast.

[MoonicusMaximus]

If you truly believe this you seriously need to work on how you parse things then.

 

Tsukinoki understood it well enough. But I'll attempt to do so in the future, if it'll make ya happy.

[Tsukinoki]

@GoneM4d
It only takes 2 or 3 rollers to be able to stunlock you.  And surprise, they can spawn in groups of 2 to 4 at a time, meaning that its not collecting them, its that you got a single normal spawn of them.

And yes, challenge is good.  Unfun, frustrating, and cheap enemies are not.  If DE would fix the stun mechanics so that enemies cant stunlock players, and players cant stunlock enemies, then everything with rollers would be good.

And thank you for pointing out that really the only way to 100% avoid stunlock is the abuse of terrain.  If an enemy requires abuse of terrain to keep from being just frustrating than there is something wrong with the enemy.  You have to look at an enemy and fix what is frustrating with it.  You dont have to remove the enemy, you just need to fix the mechanic which is making the enemy so annoying and unfun to fight.

There are three suggestions mentioned in this thread to mitigate the stunlock without heavily nerfing rollers:
1) Diminishing returns on stuns
2) Make them have to do an attack animation
3) Make their stun an ability with a 3 to 5 second CD.

Otherwise if you're unlucky and didnt hear them coming, which can happen, you can be pushed against a box by them and then infinately stunned without any chance to escape.

That is a bad mechanic right there.

People want rollers to get fixed because they are the main users of a broken/bad mechanic.  DE needs to fix the mechanic that the rollers use, stunning/staggering, and these threads would disappear.