Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[geninrising]

Also the addition of ultra tanky female frames last year.  I thought it over and realized that every single female frame introduced in 2014 had a damage reduction skill that was better than Iron Skin.

 

Valkyr had hysteria and super high armor, zephyr turbulence, mirage eclipse, mesa shatter shield.  And now Mag has shield transference, also better than Rhino since it scales to enemy levels.

The thing we have to take into account with all of these damage mitigation abilities is this, they all have a downside.

 

Valkyr can literally be killed if she does not gtfo when surrounded by enemies when Hysteria ends(however we can pretty much universally agree that god mode must go though).

 

Zephyr's Turbulence only stops non hit scan bullets and only affects bullets period. Leading to more often than not death unless fighting corpus.

 

Mirage's Eclipse is not only situational(often you cannot even find a place that shades her enough from light to get the defense)she has one of the lowest hp totals in game even with a maxed out vitality and her shields fair no better in the grand scheme of things.

 

Mesa's  Shatter Shield is bullet protection only combine this with her need to stand stock still with her ult while potentially being mauled by melees because it has no prioritizing of targets. Mesa is still the worst offender in this pack.

 

Mag's Shield transference is good but has a few drawbacks. It can be bypassed by explosives completely and body parts can be hit through the shield due to hit boxes. Additionally weapons that have punch through like the nullifiers Lanka for instance or Railgun Moas, or Balisticas shoot right through it(that is kind of weird because nominally you do not face them at all but I shield polarized in a void Sabotage then inside the portal fought a balistica).

[Holeypaladin]

It's a shame that he's considered the "noob warframe".

 

It's true that Rhino is very popular among new players, since iron skin makes it so much easier to survive those low level missions when you don't have high ranked redirection or vitality mods.  It's just really bad that iron skin falls off in high level content.  The damage reduction would make him less godly against level 1 enemies with no redirection/vitality mods, but more playable at high levels.

[Holeypaladin]

I've taken into account that they have a downside, yes.  But I've also taken into account that with the exception of Valkyr and possibly Zephyr, none of them are intended to act as tanks at all.  They just happen to be extremely tanky and put the former tanks to shame when certain conditions are met.  And it's not THAT hard to meet those conditions.

[Ronyn]

Valkyr can literally be killed if she does not gtfo when surrounded by enemies when Hysteria ends(however we can pretty much universally agree that god mode must go though).

When playing Valkyr with the right build she can survive very well in melee range against pretty high level enemies without using hysteria.

[Azawarau]

Mirage isn't intended to be a full time tank, so of course her damage reduction is situational.

 

Rhino IS intended to be a tank, so his damage reduction isn't situational... it's just terrible right now.

 

It's balanced because mirage has godlike weapon damage.  She's a damage dealer, obviously.  What's not balanced is that she's currently a weapon damage dealer who is 5 times as durable as Rhino.

But you jsut said you can outtank rhino with her

 

Something wrong with that isnt there?

 

Change mirage if thats the issue

 

But you talk as if she is. Because she is better than Rhino in every way. Ain't she?

 

Why not Loki? Beeing invisible and equipped with silent weapons, he has more survivability than all the other frames can dream of. No target = infinite life.

^

 

I've mentioned Loki as well, but invisibility is a dodge skill rather than a reduction skill.  Different type skills, hard to compare them.  Evasion through invisibility is outright superior to damage reduction in general, but the evasion vs reduction argument is not relevant to this topic.

 

I'm saying that it's pretty jacked up that Mirage is a better tank than Rhino, since that's not even her premise.

Youve said it but theres nothing backing that up

 

Tanking with mirage is like trying to tank with Valkyrs armor that activates and deactivates almost at random

 

Okay, I can simplify this argument quite easily.

The problem isn't Rhino, the problem is the uber-powerful DRs on Mirage, Trinity, and Mesa. By the time Iron Skin has trouble tanking, you're past the point which DE balances for (in their own words).

So, why don't we try to fix the problem instead of trying to 'fix' Rhino?

^Bing

 

I already proposed a list of simple changes that would balance out DR in general, but you might have missed it.  It consisted of 5 simple steps which I'll update based on recent discussion.

 

Step 1: Remove the invincibility of hysteria, replace with 85% DR or so

Step 2: Remove the power strength scaling of all damage reduction skills (Eclipse and shatter shield, I'm looking at you).  75% DR for Mirage and 80% for Mesa are more than enough, they don't need to have 95%.

Step 3: Return to iteration 2 iron skin, which was an 85% DR and immunity to CC

Step 4: Find some new purpose for the shrapnel augment for iron skin.

Step 5: Give snow globe some sort of augment to make it eximus-like, because frost is supposed to be a tank too.

85% DR isnt needed on valkyr. Its actually an excessive butt to hysteria VIA life strike hax infinite energy and rodoculous EHP looping with QT

 

Not to mention it doesnt realy add anything to her. its just taking the toughest frame in game and making her tougher than she needs to be in any practical situation. Also the damage on hysteria would still stink compared to regular melee. It needs a serious damage rework

 

How about change shattershield and eclipse to better suit the frames to their themes rather than just having them have the ability to face tank?

 

85% Dr on IS is too much. Ive already explained this. Read Valkyr for more detail

 

4 and 5 arent even relevant

 

Its like a congressman adding a Rider to a bill

 

It'd be fine if there was a brief period where his iron skin would absorb damage and redirect it to iron skin's total health. Take Snow Globe, for example.

This is actually extremely abusable and much more powerful than it would be with frosts globe

 

It's a shame that he's considered the "noob warframe".

 

It's true that Rhino is very popular among new players, since iron skin makes it so much easier to survive those low level missions when you don't have high ranked redirection or vitality mods.  It's just really bad that iron skin falls off in high level content.  The damage reduction would make him less godly against level 1 enemies with no redirection/vitality mods, but more playable at high levels.

Actually

 

Itd make him more powerful if you know what youre doing and how to work it

 

Im not sure if you understand the kind of difference 85% makes

 

Also the issue was reduced greatly by having warframes gain power as they level

Edited January 14, 2015 by Azawarau

[Ronyn]

It's a shame that he's considered the "noob warframe".

 

It's true that Rhino is very popular among new players, since iron skin makes it so much easier to survive those low level missions when you don't have high ranked redirection or vitality mods.  It's just really bad that iron skin falls off in high level content.  The damage reduction would make him less godly against level 1 enemies with no redirection/vitality mods, but more playable at high levels.

Rhino's popularity also comes from the fact that he is attained very early on the star map.

A lot of the other frames are farther out, require more grinding, or more complicated questing.

[letir]

Don't forget Zephyr. Her face tanking aren't perfect, but still pretty impressive, especially against Corpus.

[Holeypaladin]

85% isn't too powerful when it doesn't scale to power strength to become a massive 95%.  I used the 85% number because it was the actual factual damage reduction from the second iteration of iron skin, immediately after it lost complete invulnerability (before it was "buffed" to provide 1200 artificial HP.  Not really a buff at all).

 

Considering that at low levels, people also don't have streamline or continuity, they don't typically have the energy to keep a duration-based iron skin active very often.  So it's highly situational until you get into the "always have enough energy to keep it active" level, where the tanky girl frames are at now.

[Ronyn]

Okay, I can simplify this argument quite easily.

The problem isn't Rhino, the problem is the uber-powerful DRs on Mirage, Trinity, and Mesa. By the time Iron Skin has trouble tanking, you're past the point which DE balances for (in their own words).

So, why don't we try to fix the problem instead of trying to 'fix' Rhino?

That's kind of the thing right there....

Lowering the DR on mesa, trinity and mirage has it's use but that isn't going to solve the overall problem by itself either.

The real problem is the expectation brought about from the darn endless modes.

The game has modes where folks are standing against level 60+ enemies and certain powers actually scale well enough that certain frames still fulfill their expected role. Vauban doesn't stop being mr CC, Nyx doesn't stop being the queen of mind control, loki doesn't stop being the invisible trickster....etc...

but around that point rhino stops being able to really fit the tank role very well and has to turn into a stomp/roar bot.

Certain frames/roles scale a lot better than others right now and this is a big cause of friction around here.

 

Trying to convince most people that kind of double standard is ok when these endless modes are drawing attention isn't really going to work. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ronyn]

85% isn't too powerful when it doesn't scale to power strength to become a massive 95%.  I used the 85% number because it was the actual factual damage reduction from the second iteration of iron skin, immediately after it lost complete invulnerability (before it was "buffed" to provide 1200 artificial HP.  Not really a buff at all).

 

Considering that at low levels, people also don't have streamline or continuity, they don't typically have the energy to keep a duration-based iron skin active very often.  So it's highly situational until you get into the "always have enough energy to keep it active" level, where the tanky girl frames are at now.

This seems like a pretty reasonable statement to me.

At a hard capped 85 damage reduction you will make it pretty far into high levels but eventually even 15 percent of incoming damage will take you out in a few seconds. I'd have to do some math to see what level the enemy would have to be for that to happen.

 

 

Itd make him more powerful if you know what youre doing and how to work it

Im not sure if you understand the kind of difference 85% makes

Also the issue was reduced greatly by having warframes gain power as they level

At the same time wouldn't that 85 percent damage reduction be the maxed version of iron skin?

Which wouldn't be achieved until rhino hit's level 27.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

When playing Valkyr with the right build she can survive very well in melee range against pretty high level enemies without using hysteria.

I am aware, I was pointing out her self damage when hysteria ends as a drawback should you be in range when it ends.

[Azawarau]

 

85% isn't too powerful when it doesn't scale to power strength to become a massive 95%.  I used the 85% number because it was the actual factual damage reduction from the second iteration of iron skin, immediately after it lost complete invulnerability (before it was "buffed" to provide 1200 artificial HP.  Not really a buff at all).

 

Considering that at low levels, people also don't have streamline or continuity, they don't typically have the energy to keep a duration-based iron skin active very often.  So it's highly situational until you get into the "always have enough energy to keep it active" level, where the tanky girl frames are at now.

Read below though ive already explained this to you

 

Low levels arent the topic here

 

ThisAt the same time wouldn't that 85 percent damage reduction be the maxed version of iron skin?

Which wouldn't be achieved until rhino hit's level 27.

Take into consideration base armor,shields,and QT

 

I was speaking specifically for end game that 85% is too high on rhino

 

Valkyr has a bit more than that without regening shields and armor on top of direct DR on top of a wide area CC

 

85% at max is too high

[Holeypaladin]

Why WOULDN'T you want someone on your team who draws fire away from the squishy people, but doesn't die to it?  That's what iron skin's taunt affect was supposed to do... it fell short, obviously, but it's a good premise.

 

Perhaps a threatening roar augment that makes all enemies shoot at Rhino while roar is active.  But in order to take all that punishment, he would need a better version of iron skin... 85% is the minimum to take all the damage from the rest of your team, really.

 

That allows for improved tank strategies... rather than relying entirely on CC/utility, having a tank to draw enemy fire away from the rest of the team and survive it would be useful for high end missions.

[SIDESTRE4M]

I don't think Rhino needs sort of an aggro mechanic.

 

But it will surely be fun to see Rhinos sucking up the damage later on in T4 and going constantly down. At some point in T4 it will be suicide to cast Iron Skin.

[Azawarau]

 

Personally I'd love to see rhino take the throne as THE tank of the game once again. If matched by anyone, it should only be frost in his own way.

Yet somehow I can't really get behind a lot of what you've said in this thread. Be honest with you man it still seems like you are exaggerating certain things. I get where you heart is here but that kind of gets lost in your specific suggestions and claims of what frame does what most effectively.

 

 

See now the wording here...some folks will take that to mean you don't think females should be tankeir than rhino..

when really I think you're trying to say that no one should be tankier than rhino.

 

Why not valkyr?

 

Dont defend his biased views

 

He obviously thinks males should be tougher

 

Hes given more than enough examples of common trends and cliches from games to show that

 

When playing Valkyr with the right build she can survive very well in melee range against pretty high level enemies without using hysteria.

As a valkyr player who does high waves

 

Youre really dependent on ally CC after a while

 

Even mighty valkyr can fall flat in seconds

 

Corpus are the worst still

[Holeypaladin]

Actually, I think the idea of a challenging shout augment to roar, combined with the improved iron skin, would be a welcome addition to the game.  The more ways you add to draw fire away from Nova, the better.

[Azawarau]

Why WOULDN'T you want someone on your team who draws fire away from the squishy people, but doesn't die to it?  That's what iron skin's taunt affect was supposed to do... it fell short, obviously, but it's a good premise.

 

Perhaps a threatening roar augment that makes all enemies shoot at Rhino while roar is active.  But in order to take all that punishment, he would need a better version of iron skin... 85% is the minimum to take all the damage from the rest of your team, really.

 

That allows for improved tank strategies... rather than relying entirely on CC/utility, having a tank to draw enemy fire away from the rest of the team and survive it would be useful for high end missions.

Theres nothing wrong with that

 

The issue is byoure trying to make him a different kind of tank than he needs to be

 

Valkyr = tanky tank

 

Rhino = support tank

 

Frost = different kind of support tank

 

Saryn= Kind of subbed in everything

 

It works that way

 

Making rhino tougher than valkyr and able to support the team with damage mitigating CCs and damage buffs is directly impacting Valkyr

 

Is it not possible for rhino to be the tank without stealing her role on the team as well? Or obsoleting any other frames for that matter?

 

 

 

Actually, I think the idea of a challenging shout augment to roar, combined with the improved iron skin, would be a welcome addition to the game.  The more ways you add to draw fire away from Nova, the better.

Roar attracting aggro is a good diea

 

Thinking that nova needs fire drawn away from her though is bad

 

Its not like enemies can move anyways

Edited January 14, 2015 by Azawarau

[Holeypaladin]

Most people don't see berserkers as tanks... they're usually all offense with little regard for defense.

 

I wouldn't mind valkyr being a tank, though, so long as she's not outright better at it in every way like she is right now.

[Azawarau]

Most people don't see berserkers as tanks... they're usually all offense with little regard for defense.

 

I wouldn't mind valkyr being a tank, though, so long as she's not outright better at it in every way like she is right now.

Idk about you but berserkers tend to be one of the toughest classes right next to warriors and tanks

 

They use big armor and big weapons to rush in and hit hard and take hits

 

If youre going to use berserker dont use the only way its defined

 

And dont continue to apply cliches to everything

 

Why does this berserker have to be like others exactly?

[Holeypaladin]

Valkyr is a berserker... most people view them more as a "charge into melee and kill everything but somehow manage to survive" type thing rather than a tank that draws enemy fire away from their allies.

 

What I think would be good for Valkyr is to have her hysteria claws adopt her equipped melee weapon stats like the peacemaker pistols do.  That would allow them increased damage, plus the hysteria damage buff on top of that, to make her really rip things apart.  Sacrifice her invulnerability to do so, and you have an offense-focused melee berserker right there.

[Azawarau]

Valkyr is a berserker... most people view them more as a "charge into melee and kill everything but somehow manage to survive" type thing rather than a tank that draws enemy fire away from their allies.

 

What I think would be good for Valkyr is to have her hysteria claws adopt her equipped melee weapon stats like the peacemaker pistols do.  That would allow them increased damage, plus the hysteria damage buff on top of that, to make her really rip things apart.  Sacrifice her invulnerability to do so, and you have an offense-focused melee berserker right there.

Really?

 

Most people see them as big armor big axe or club and spin2win

[Holeypaladin]

Why does this berserker have to be like others exactly?

Why not?

 

The current invincibility is entirely too overpowered, it's like old iron skin on steroids with five times the duration.

 

But when you apply a label like "berserker" or "paladin" or "heaviest" to something... there are certain expectations people get from seeing it.  Oberon does not meet the paladin expectation (he meets the druid expectation instead), nor does Valkyr currently meet the berserker expectation (since hysteria attacks are too weak), nor does Rhino meet the "heaviest" expectation (since he doesn't have the most armor, nor the most health, nor the best damage reduction power).

 

That's a fundamental problem with giving such labels, true... but it's still a player expectation when they see them.

[Azawarau]

Why not?

 

The current invincibility is entirely too overpowered, it's like old iron skin on steroids with five times the duration.

 

But when you apply a label like "berserker" or "paladin" or "heaviest" to something... there are certain expectations people get from seeing it.  Oberon does not meet the paladin expectation (he meets the druid expectation instead), nor does Valkyr currently meet the berserker expectation (since hysteria attacks are too weak), nor does Rhino meet the "heaviest" expectation (since he doesn't have the most armor, nor the most health, nor the best damage reduction power).

 

That's a fundamental problem with giving such labels, true... but it's still a player expectation when they see them.

You mean she doesnt fit the berserker expectation you assumed she had

 

Grab a scindo prime and warcry it up with valkyr

 

She fits berserker perfectly

 

Hysteria is overpowered but thats another issue entirely that needs to be fixed

 

Weve already been through this

[Holeypaladin]

Yes, two handed weapon wielders, exactly.  Typically people who use two handed weapons are a great deal less tanky than sword and shield users, in premise.  Although usually the sword and shield tanks are severely underpowered when it comes to damage output... thankfully that's not a factor when you can rely on weapons for your damage output instead.

 

Sword and shield isn't really the warframe way.... look at how much the current weapon sucks heh.  But the concept is similar, tanks have strong shields.  Rhino's shield is pretty strong but it doesn't mean much unless it is mitigated somewhat like Valkyr's health is by armor.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[Holeypaladin]

Valkyr is actually fine without hysteria, yeah.  Maybe she can have a warcry augment that taunts as well, like the Roar augment should.