Critical Strike Chance And Critical Damage

[Fredlicious]

In a game with aiming and weak points, critical strike is a redundant, unnecessarily random mechanic. My suggestion is simple, and has two parts:

 

1) Remove random roll critical strike. The mechanic was invented to simulate the concept of accurate attacks on a target's weak point in older games that had no way for players to influence aiming. On top of that, it's never as good as a flat damage increase, even on the weapons with naturally high crit.

 

2) Make critical damage modifiers affect the bonus damage for hitting a target's weak point. The damage bonuses should be such that, given high enough accuracy by the weapon and the player, critical damage mods will outperform the flat "always-on" damage bonus mods. This makes using them a more interesting choice with more variables including playstyle and weapon accuracy; it would also synergize well with the addition of accuracy improvement mods.

[Archistopheles]

You have my support.

[SolluxCaptorTA]

A much better way, and would make "crits" useful.

[drunkpunk222]

Put stats for weapons to see what base critical chance they have and stats after upgrade for everything.

[Zarvok]

In a game with aiming and weak points, critical strike is a redundant, unnecessarily random mechanic. My suggestion is simple, and has two parts:

 

1) Remove random roll critical strike. The mechanic was invented to simulate the concept of accurate attacks on a target's weak point in older games that had no way for players to influence aiming. On top of that, it's never as good as a flat damage increase, even on the weapons with naturally high crit.

 

2) Make critical damage modifiers affect the bonus damage for hitting a target's weak point. The damage bonuses should be such that, given high enough accuracy by the weapon and the player, critical damage mods will outperform the flat "always-on" damage bonus mods. This makes using them a more interesting choice with more variables including playstyle and weapon accuracy; it would also synergize well with the addition of accuracy improvement mods.

 

I like this all a great deal.

[Lord.Finster]

Now that's aproposal that makes sense and rewards players for their skill.

Critical damage mods improve enemy weakpoint damage instead and Crit-chance mods increase accuracy.

You wouldn't even have to change the names on the Mods.

[Xtorma]

Anything is better than what it is now.

[Namacyst]

In a game with aiming and weak points, critical strike is a redundant, unnecessarily random mechanic. My suggestion is simple, and has two parts:

 

1) Remove random roll critical strike. The mechanic was invented to simulate the concept of accurate attacks on a target's weak point in older games that had no way for players to influence aiming. On top of that, it's never as good as a flat damage increase, even on the weapons with naturally high crit.

 

2) Make critical damage modifiers affect the bonus damage for hitting a target's weak point. The damage bonuses should be such that, given high enough accuracy by the weapon and the player, critical damage mods will outperform the flat "always-on" damage bonus mods. This makes using them a more interesting choice with more variables including playstyle and weapon accuracy; it would also synergize well with the addition of accuracy improvement mods.

 

For me crits are "lucky" hits where you get the Enemy where it really hurts even if you aimed properly.. like hitting his weak leg and instead of just doing a fleshwound severing an artery. So imho crits have a right to be.

[Fredlicious]

For me crits are "lucky" hits where you get the Enemy where it really hurts even if you aimed properly.. like hitting his weak leg and instead of just doing a fleshwound severing an artery. So imho crits have a right to be.

 

The problem with it is that it doesn't really add anything to the game except for random damage spikes, and all crit-related mods are objectively worse than flat damage increases given the current numbers. Even if you tweak the numbers, this problem will remain: there will always be an objective best when it comes to straight damage versus critical strike.

 

What I'm proposing actually results in a gameplay choice: playing slow and methodical, focusing on weak point shots for MASSIVE DAMAGE vs. fast-paced spray-and-pray.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Fredlicious

[Xrylene]

In a game with aiming and weak points, critical strike is a redundant, unnecessarily random mechanic. My suggestion is simple, and has two parts:

 

1) Remove random roll critical strike. The mechanic was invented to simulate the concept of accurate attacks on a target's weak point in older games that had no way for players to influence aiming. On top of that, it's never as good as a flat damage increase, even on the weapons with naturally high crit.

 

2) Make critical damage modifiers affect the bonus damage for hitting a target's weak point. The damage bonuses should be such that, given high enough accuracy by the weapon and the player, critical damage mods will outperform the flat "always-on" damage bonus mods. This makes using them a more interesting choice with more variables including playstyle and weapon accuracy; it would also synergize well with the addition of accuracy improvement mods.

 

I saw this thread title, and braced myself for yet another crit thread I'd have to try and shoot down. I imagine by now, forum goers have gotten used to me appearing anywhere crit is mentioned to suggest this sort of change.

 

And yet, rather than see a thread where I will have to argue yet again against random crits, I see someone who's post easily could have been mine. This, and the fact that anti RNG actually gets upvotes on this forum(unlike LoL, where it gets downvoted and locked), makes me hopeful that together we may actually be able to change this before release.

[NoOneCares]

Up votes for everyone. But not 

 

For me crits are "lucky" hits where you get the Enemy where it really hurts even if you aimed properly.. like hitting his weak leg and instead of just doing a fleshwound severing an artery. So imho crits have a right to be.

[Krillex]

Complementing to the suggestion, I suppose the melee weapon aiming has to be "on the reticule" to promote striking at the weakpoint?

[Geuax]

we have crit because there are even more weak points than  clear regions.  ie your chest is mostly armored but your heart and lung are more sensitive.

 

-eyes 

-joints

-blood vessels

- couplings , hoses, clips

[Fredlicious]

Complementing to the suggestion, I suppose the melee weapon aiming has to be "on the reticule" to promote striking at the weakpoint?

 

Ah yes, I forgot to cover melee! I think that critical damage for melee weapons should be relegated to stealth/invisibility attacks (which already kind of simulate being crits in that they give you yellow damage numbers, though I don't think they presently use the critical damage stat) and the on-the-ground execution attacks (which could use a little love, because right now the risk:reward ratio is a bit out of whack). Again, the idea is to drive different types of gameplay, rather than simply adding random damage.

 

 

we have crit because there are even more weak points than  clear regions.  ie your chest is mostly armored but your heart and lung are more sensitive.

 

-eyes 

-joints

-blood vessels

- couplings , hoses, clips

 

The appropriate way to simulate this, if they really wanted to, would be to add more localized damage points, rather than adding arbitrary RNG. Again, the point here is that random criticals are arbitrary; they don't serve to enhance gameplay, and the mods that improve them are currently both uninteresting and (relatively) ineffective.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Fredlicious

[Xrylene]

For melee, allowing it to be aimed through the reticule or adding critical damage to stealth and ground attacks would work nicely. Either way, this needs to happen, before it's too late and the millions of crit loving WoW/LoL players get in and prevent change.

[Zeddypanda]

Melee crits could work by simply slashing at weak points. This could work out if melee weapons had different combos where some of the hits were designed to hit the crit points of some monsters rather than others. Scindo might have an alternate low slash designed to be aimed at ancient legs, for example, Gram's currently existing overhead slashes would be meant to be aimed directly at heads.

[CosyPigeon]

+1 to this, would also need to allow Melee attacks to be aimed with reticule.

[Xrylene]

I made a sister thread to this one to cover removing the RNG from multishot and stun mods. Anyone who supports the change to crit should take a look. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38765-removing-the-rng-from-multishot-and-stun/

[Cakes]

In a game with aiming and weak points, critical strike is a redundant, unnecessarily random mechanic. My suggestion is simple, and has two parts:

 

1) Remove random roll critical strike. The mechanic was invented to simulate the concept of accurate attacks on a target's weak point in older games that had no way for players to influence aiming. On top of that, it's never as good as a flat damage increase, even on the weapons with naturally high crit.

 

2) Make critical damage modifiers affect the bonus damage for hitting a target's weak point. The damage bonuses should be such that, given high enough accuracy by the weapon and the player, critical damage mods will outperform the flat "always-on" damage bonus mods. This makes using them a more interesting choice with more variables including playstyle and weapon accuracy; it would also synergize well with the addition of accuracy improvement mods.

 

For the first point, if the crit mechanic was designed to simulate hitting a weak point, then damage calculations in Warframe would be more like Global Agenda where a headshot reigsters the same damage as a bodyshot. But we see forumers recommending new and confused players to shoot the Ancient's legs or aim for headshots against Grineer... etc. to dish out more damage. Debating over the superiority of a crit build or a base damage build is irrelevant to the suggestion of a new mod type.

 

As for the second point, I see no reason for the "there can only be one" mentality. Just add a new mod type that improves skillshots. Some players like to gamble with crits for random bursts of damage, others like to rely on skillshots for reliable takedowns; both groups like to have fun.

 

I'm just surprised there's only critical bonuses to damage and no critical failures.

[Fredlicious]

For the first point, if the crit mechanic was designed to simulate hitting a weak point, then damage calculations in Warframe would be more like Global Agenda where a headshot reigsters the same damage as a bodyshot. But we see forumers recommending new and confused players to shoot the Ancient's legs or aim for headshots against Grineer... etc. to dish out more damage. Debating over the superiority of a crit build or a base damage build is irrelevant to the suggestion of a new mod type.

 

As for the second point, I see no reason for the "there can only be one" mentality. Just add a new mod type that improves skillshots. Some players like to gamble with crits for random bursts of damage, others like to rely on skillshots for reliable takedowns; both groups like to have fun.

 

I'm just surprised there's only critical bonuses to damage and no critical failures.

To the first paragraph: when I talk about why the crit mechanic was invented, I don't mean for Warframe specifically. Critical strike chance, as a game mechanic, dates back to the earliest table top games; in those days, there was no particularly good way to simulate skilled aim outside of a roll of the dice.The only reason it pops up in games like Warframe is because it's a known quantity for RPGs, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. In this case, all it does is add significant variance to your damage for no appreciable reason. When you add the fact that crit builds are inferior to damage builds, there remains no reason for the mechanic to exist in the first place.

 

To the second paragraph: this isn't so much about adding a new means of damage increase as it is removing an outmoded one. The only reason I suggested potential replacements is because there is already a dearth of variety in the available mods, but the salient point is that critical strike chance is not a meaningful mechanic for Warframe.

[matrixEXO]

I see an issue with this, weapons with high RoF. As of now, crits are part of the high RoF weapons like the Grakata and Twin Vipers. Shifting this key element would need a ground-up redesign of the weapons itself. It's not that I'm all against it or anything but I see a problem and just want to point it out.

 

+1 cause no matter what needs to be changed due to the suggestion, random crits needs to go.

Edited May 3, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Xrylene]

I see an issue with this, weapons with high RoF. As of now, crits are part of the high RoF weapons like the Grakata and Twin Vipers. Shifting this key element would need a ground-up redesign of the weapons itself. It's not that I'm all against it or anything but I see a problem and just want to point it out.

 

+1 cause no matter what needs to be changed due to the suggestion, random crits needs to go.

 

Actually, it's pretty simple. Take the Grakata for example, it apparently has a 7.5% crit chance, with a 2 times crit. This means that if we got rid of it's crit, we could give it a base damage increase. Since a 7.5% damage increase would only add 0.675 damage, we can just round it off to 10 base damage instead of 9, it's as simple as that.

 

There's also the possibility that with the removal of crit, high rate of fire weapons could have a new mod type catered to them. How about a mod that stacks up higher damage on successive shots on the same target(obviously with a cap, to prevent boss destroying). This would encourage concentrated fire with high fire rate weapons.

[krisp]

I see an issue with this, weapons with high RoF. As of now, crits are part of the high RoF weapons like the Grakata and Twin Vipers. Shifting this key element would need a ground-up redesign of the weapons itself. It's not that I'm all against it or anything but I see a problem and just want to point it out.

 

+1 cause no matter what needs to be changed due to the suggestion, random crits needs to go.

The snipetron and paris are the best crit weapons currently in the game. High RoF my &#!.

[matrixEXO]

Actually, it's pretty simple. Take the Grakata for example, it apparently has a 7.5% crit chance, with a 2 times crit. This means that if we got rid of it's crit, we could give it a base damage increase. Since a 7.5% damage increase would only add 0.675 damage, we can just round it off to 10 base damage instead of 9, it's as simple as that.

 

There's also the possibility that with the removal of crit, high rate of fire weapons could have a new mod type catered to them. How about a mod that stacks up higher damage on successive shots on the same target(obviously with a cap, to prevent boss destroying). This would encourage concentrated fire with high fire rate weapons.

But remove crit possibilities. The reason is because of the impossibility to crit with those weapons, giving them 100% bonus crit where 25% of your should would land on the target's weak point of you are lucky. As far as I can see, damage-wise is just impossible.

 

Adding that mod onto a RIFLE pool would just boost all other rifle weapons, in turn boosting all other weapons to do much better than the Grakata. Not saying that it isn't possible to code it but there ARE weapons that can do it's job with lower RoF and do it better. This means that there is a need for a new sub-class called SMG if it is ever desired to be created.

 

Sorry, I'm just looking at the negatives in the design flaw that you came out with.

[matrixEXO]

The snipetron and paris are the best crit weapons currently in the game. High RoF my &#!.

High RoF weapons rely heavily on crits to actually boost their damage thus can't be compared to either the Snipetron or the Paris. More obviously is the Grakata being the weakest dealing weapon in the game (at 9 damage per shot). While there are more tactical guns with high crit rate and low RoF, the more prominent ones are the high RoF, low/mid damage guns being reasoned that they would need more crits to dish as good as a damage to compete with other highly capable guns whereas the tactical guns can just be aimed for headshots and weakpoint shots, giving them more of an edge.

 

The shift in the key feature of crits in this game would not affect those tactical guns but would adversely affect high RoF guns. You gotta understand why I mentioned it.

Edited May 3, 2013 by matrixEXO