Why The Grakata Is Underpowered And Not Worth Buying.

[ValhaHazred]

The Grakata is more fun to use. PUT THAT ON YOUR SPREADSHEETS!!! (:P)

[Vaskadar]

Bring damage up to 13 and bring crit chance up to 15%, OR... give it innate AP. There's no reason this weapon should continue to be sub-par, even when compared to the Braton.

Actually, both the Burston and Grakata are sub-par. In need of serious consideration.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Vaskadar

[Gearb0x]

One way to balance the Grakata not so far discussed would be a change to its ammunition pickup.

 

If the Grakata picked up 60 bullets per ammo drop rather than 20, it would encourage the bullet hose playstyle designed into the weapon.  If ammo consumption was not a problem, then the mid level DPS of the Grakata would not be executed at the detriment of ammo efficiency.

 

As it is, the Afuris is a better Grakata than the Grakata.  The Grakata is fun to use but will burn through 2 ammo boxes on a decently challenging assassination mission.  If ammo consumption was not a problem, I would consider using it. Ever again after leveling it to 30.

 

At least it's not a Burstron, I say.  I want THOSE 30 levels back,

Edited May 30, 2013 by Gearb0x

[Dasmir]

The grakata with 12 or 10 base damage WILL be a diff history in terms of dps

[Aedwynn]

It amuses me how people still believe that if weapon has high crit chance/damage it makes crit mods viable. It doesn't

What Snipetron will get from those having 20% crit chance and 150% crit damage ? Crit chance will go to 50%, crit damage to 330% 

So on average every second hit will do 230% more damage or every hit doing 115% more. Does that mean that mods effectively add 115% damage? NOPE. Weapon deals crits even without mods so we need to substract damage added by default 20/150. its 10% so

final result is 105% increase for !2! mod slots on weapon with highest gain from crit mechanic

Serration? +165% for 1 slot. split chamber? +90% for 1 slot. elemental? +60-90%(even more against right enemies) for 1 slot and all of that without depending on weapon stats in any way. Sorry but crit upgrades are lowest priority in terms of improving weapon. 

With introduction of forma main limiting factor is number of slots, not mods cost. So,

1. Serration

2. Split chamber

3. Cryo rounds

4. Hellfire / Stormbringer / Piercing hit chosen against enemy youll face

5. Speed trigger

6. Elemental2 ( that you did not choose)

7. utility slot ( auger, ammo drum, thunderclap, etc. - to cover your weapon's weak points and mission specific stuff)

8. elemental3 ?

As you can see, there is effectively no spot to put those 2 crit mods in, and putting only one will break synergy, making even crappier gains.

 

As for Grakata... well when you spray and occasionaly get a few crits in a row it feels cool and all, but in long run it's outperformed by anything else.

[Guest]

The grakata's weak damage and great bullet wasting capabilities has helped me (and is still helping me) be more accurate, precise, and ammo efficient with it.

 

Most often I've been going for headshots/weakpoint shots with it and lately I've been getting better and better at doing so.

 

The grakata may be weak, but I think of it as a good training weapon in it's current state.

 

Don't forget this is a grineer weapon, so maybe when DE buffs this weapon, it buffs the enemies weapons as well? (Just a thought)

Edited May 30, 2013 by Guest

[ASH_PRIME]

Wow an entire novel [with numbers!] about the Grat..

but You are only comparing it to the Gorgon?  not EVERYONE wants to run a Gorgon..

I personally like my Grat, its FUN to use, and is more effective at doing sustained, fast controlled bursts than almost any other weapon

It might be weak low level, but with Serration, Split Chamber, Piercing Hit, Mag Warp and Cryo Rounds at high level its pretty effective..

This sort of huge post ..'this gun is not as good as this gun' is not helpful or productive to anyone...

[ASH_PRIME]

The Grakata is more fun to use. PUT THAT ON YOUR SPREADSHEETS!!! (:P)

haha wish i had seen this post earlier

You got it in one! 

[psyanide]

*sigh* At the end of the day, is there any enemy that cannot actually be killed by either gun in a relatively timely fashion? The sustained fire DPS off of Grakata should not match up directly with the friggin' Gorgon - I find that the Grakata is a great skirmish tool and geared towards a mobile Frame that will duck in and out of the battle, shooting in short, accurate bursts. The Gorgon is a... squad support weapon, I suppose you could call it? Good to fill a room with lead but requiring a little space to use most effectively - although with that said, you can, of course, use either gun ANY way you want I am just saying this is how I tend to put out the best numbers.

I almost never go full auto with a Grakata, you usually (USUALLY!!!) end up missing half of your damned shots if you do. Always quick bursts of 4-10 shots to the head. With this method I run around solo farming Pluto, even though I STILL have found no MultiShot mod of ANY kind, ty ty DE, it's been 2 months of daily play now... Your game is awesome but ffs.

 

Gorgon... well. Even though technically it IS so much better and I had a lot of fun with it (pre-nerf), I find that using it now actually hinders more than helps me, since I like to scope, shoot, run, scope, shoot, run. An wind-up HMG like the Gorgon just does not gel very well with my playstyle. 

 

A 1-2 dmg buff might be nice on the Grakata, but I think an inherent AP value would be a far better adjustment. Otherwise we just end up with a low dmg, high ROF Gorgon clone. We are looking for alternative play styles, not re-skins.

[Sulci]

I have both weapons and would have to argee with a lot of what scaleblue wrote. The Grakata is underpowered compared to the Braton Mk1. My Grakata is at a 30 level, carries some maxed out mods and potatoed to the point it dishes out decent damage I could trust in it now use in the void missions. My Braton Mk1 is only at a 21 level, carries low level similar mods to the Grakata and is potatoed. The only problem I witness between the two is the MK1 at its current state deals more damage than the Grakata. The easier solution would be to buff the base damage from 9 to the 12-14 range just below the Mk1, so not to sacrifice the fire rate of the Grakata. Thus the  Grakata is more of a sidegrade than an upgrade.

[Qb3rt]

TLDR; the OP wasted a ridiculous amount of time on a post predicated on a horribly false crit rate assumption that pretty much renders the rest of the post null & void.

 

Yet another reason why DE needs to finally release long-overdue official weapon statistics.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Qb3rt

[psyanide]

Oooof, forgot about dat Braton. The BRATON (esp. the Vandal) can fill either of the roles I mentioned earlier, and outperforms the Grakata pretty squarely...

 

Actually, I am going to go and try out both on a few groups of the same enemies and see how I feel, it has been awhile since I used my Braton n things may have changed quite a bit.

[Vaskadar]

Most rifles' starting ammo sits at... 540. Grakata sits at 675. Can verify as I have not yet equipped ammo Drum.

Still needs innate AP or something to compensate for its super-low damage, because crits won't save it in the end.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Vaskadar

[psyanide]

Stats would be nice. What I would REALLLLLLLY love would be for your weapons to have their mod buffed stats listed, even a popout/tooltip solution at this point would be great.

 eg. For melee  

        - Basic hit dmg         - *value* (then extra corresponding elemental dmg listed in diff colors)

        - Charged hit dmg    - as above

        - Slide attack dmg    - as above

        - Jump attack dmg   - by now you get the idea

        - Crit chance            - *% value*

        - Crit dmg multiplier  - Just a straight % value here, we'll figure out the rest :D

        - Reach                    - *value* in meters or whatever

        - Attack speed          - *value* in maximum attacks per second

 

      For Main and Side Arms

        - Basic hit dmg         - *value per shot* (then extra elemental dmg listed in diff colors), with Shotguns = dmg per pellet  x amount of pellets

        - Charged hit dmg    - For items such as Dread and Paris

        - Crit chance            - *% value*

        - Crit dmg multiplier  - *% value*

        - Rate of fire             - max shots per second

        - Clip size                 - max ammo per clip

        - Reload speed        - *value* in seconds it takes to reload

        - Accuracy                - Ummm, see, this one confuses me. Maybe it ought just scale 1 to 10, from *Pinpoint* to *Laughable* 

 

Any special properties the weapon had should be listed as well e.g. Can never crit, Ignores Armor, Stunning Blows, Throwable, Long Range Jump Attack, Shocking Jump Attack, Venomous etc etc etc.

 

I prolly missed some important stat or other up there, but it's just a rough idea of what I think would be great to have in-game. Thoughts, guys? 

[un.bosque]

The Grakata is more fun to use. PUT THAT ON YOUR SPREADSHEETS!!! (:P)

Truth be told I actually enjoy playing with my enemie's gun. But If that gun is kind of a joke I feel bad for anyone who spent platinum on it (not me).

[Vaskadar]

Only fools spend platinum on weapons so easily acquired.

[H0lt]

The Grakata makes me feel like i'm firing marshmallows at the enemy,

[Vaskadar]

You've not tried it with AP yet. AP and damage make Grakata a very fun rifle.

[57AV3]

I prefer the Grakata over the Gorgon hands down. The gorgon takes to long to "warm up" and with the reload speeds where they are by the time it is done reloading it needs a new warm up cycle. Having used real chain fed Gatling style weapons I can tell you right now they don't take anywhere near that long to ramp up. It is an interesting concept but the practical use leaves the weapon feeling to slow in a game that is all about speed. 

 

The all being said, the Grakata does fire a bit week and even its first shot is terribly inaccurate. At the end of the day I suggest the boar. It might not have the best range but at least it has an excuse in the lack of accuracy catagory. Side note having fired a fully auto M16 A-1 and the 3 round burst M16 A-4 in the military I can confirm the first bullet lands where you want to put it and the only thing that "reduces accuracy" from there is kick. 3 round burst means 2 in the chest and 1 in the head we designed our flash suppressor that way. Once more this is just real world life experience talking. I also know that you can't balance real guns like you do in a game. Some weapons are literally just better than other weapons. So at the end of the day remember if you have issues pick up an AK 47 and a M4 (AR 15) and try to shoot the same target and look at which one has a bigger bullet and which one actually does more damage (tumbling rounds are designed to shatter bones and make orphans.) and you will wonder what the purpose of the AK actually is.

 

The Dave

[Cytobel]

I read your original post, line for line.

 

A pure mathematical break down means $&*^ ...because it does not account for player tactics!

 

Want a simple example?

 

Fragor ground slam + freeze mod = every enemy in the vicinity is now laying belly up with all their vital bits just begging to be shot.

Not just Fragor, I love the Gram for this same tactic, but prefer it due to the faster attack.

I think that's something often overlooked / flamed over: preference.  I find the Grakata to be fun, but not always my cup of tea.  I'm more of a shotgun for close combat sort myself.  Recent modifications to maximum ammo stores show Dev awareness of balance issues, not to mention a willingness to tweak existing weapons to suit specific roles.

 

When viewed as a lighter weapon for quick assaults the Grakata can actually shine.  It's a gun for the mods, though.  Forma for Serration, potato for space, and fly around hosing everything that moves.  I find high-speed playstyles benefit more from the Grakata's qualities than suffer form it's "inferiorities".

 

Also, too much theory-crafting draws away from the enjoyment of spontaneity.  If you break life down into ordered numeric equations and set routines the occasional curve-ball will destroy you.

 

Use the Grakata when you want, or don't.  I think a damage buff will make it too destructive, and improved accuracy would detract from the SMG feel.  And don't forget, any buff is also applied th the guns Grineer grunts are using.  Make it too powerful, and low level becomes less like a speed bump and more of a curb.  New players would have more issues, and they're the ones who will set future trends in game, not to mention determine if this game survives at all.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Cytobel

[57AV3]

Not just Fragor, I love the Gram for this same tactic, but prefer it due to the faster attack.

I think that's something often overlooked / flamed over: preference.  I find the Grakata to be fun, but not always my cup of tea.  I'm more of a shotgun for close combat sort myself.  Recent modifications to maximum ammo stores show Dev awareness of balance issues, not to mention a willingness to tweak existing weapons to suit specific roles.

 

When viewed as a lighter weapon for quick assaults the Grakata can actually shine.  It's a gun for the mods, though.  Forma for Serration, potato for space, and fly around hosing everything that moves.  I find high-speed playstyles benefit more from the Grakata's qualities than suffer form it's "inferiorities".

 

Also, too much theory-crafting draws away from the enjoyment of spontaneity.  If you break life down into ordered numeric equations and set routines the occasional curve-ball will destroy you.

 

Use the Grakata when you want, or don't.  I think a damage buff will make it too destructive, and improved accuracy would detract from the SMG feel.  And don't forget, any buff is also applied th the guns Grineer grunts are using.  Make it too powerful, and low level becomes less like a speed bump and more of a curb.  New players would have more issues, and they're the ones who will set future trends in game, not to mention determine if this game survives at all.

Normally I don't agree with Cytobel. Normally I make a point to disagree with him because I think it is funny to get him started on some tangent about this that or the other. This time I agree with him though.  That said I still want it to reload faster.

[Aedwynn]

When viewed as a lighter weapon for quick assaults the Grakata can actually shine.  It's a gun for the mods, though.  Forma for Serration, potato for space, and fly around hosing everything that moves.  I find high-speed playstyles benefit more from the Grakata's qualities than suffer form it's "inferiorities".

 

...

Use the Grakata when you want, or don't.  I think a damage buff will make it too destructive, and improved accuracy would detract from the SMG feel.  And don't forget, any buff is also applied th the guns Grineer grunts are using.  Make it too powerful, and low level becomes less like a speed bump and more of a curb.  New players would have more issues, and they're the ones who will set future trends in game, not to mention determine if this game survives at all.

Um, main problem is Grakata is inferior to.. Braton for example and don't  shine at all. Why can't you use Braton for same style of play? You can do quick assaults with Braton more effectively. Meaning the only actual reason behind choice is looks of Grakata. That's okay as a point why use it, but kinda void when we discuss lack of balance. I don't say make Grakata same as Braton, but at least bring it to similar level of effectiveness.

Also, too much theory-crafting draws away from the enjoyment of spontaneity.  If you break life down into ordered numeric equations and set routines the occasional curve-ball will destroy you.

Kinda silly remark. It doesn't draw enjoyment away, in fact it provides that no enjoyment held back due to poor design. With level of challenge going up as you progress, eventually youll hit a wall with your Grakata being ineffective against proposed enemies. And that will be way sooner compared to other weapons. So, you like it, but can't do a thing with it so you'll have to throw it away instead of continuing to use it. That would be disappointing. That's why it's good to think ahead and fix such problems, what you disregard as mere theorycrafting. Edited June 21, 2013 by Aedwynn

[Tetsmeha]

Isn't this more of an opinion of Consistency vs Potential?

[scaleblue]

When I made this post about a month ago I used stats from the Warframe wiki.

These stats clearly point out how the grakata is in everyway useless when compared to the gorgon.
If you did not read THE ENTIRE POST, then do not post a comment saying how im wrong.




For noobs who cant/wont read.(refer to the Original post, for more details)

- Wind-up time DOESNT cause the Gorgon to underpreform the Grakata.
- The Gorgon has over 60% more DPS..
- The Gorgon has the same movement speed as the grakata.
- The Gorgon has less recoil and more accuracy.
- The Gorgon has more ammo per clip, and more maximum ammo.
- The Grakata sucks...

[SnokyoDrift]

This thread shows that the Braton is just as good as the Grakata in its own element, but has better accuracy as well. The Grakata needs a damage buff of 1 to truly have a role, as it is simply outclassed right now.

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/1guzgv/do_not_worship_the_false_king_grakata_the_true/

Edited June 23, 2013 by Tryysaeder