Nerfing Nova For The Sake Of Challenging Missions.

[LisRestall]

-snip-

The problem is because you haven't seen how veterans of the game plays Nova (esp those who have been around upon Nova's release). You'll actually be surprised how fast we copter around and apply Mprime quickly on different places. For my case, I even use a directional melee upwards and cast Mprime there so I am "mobile" while casting, no more need for Natural Talent. She is also so fast in sprinting that slide-shooting is rather easy and I do this alot on nullifiers, in-case you didn't know, there was a hotfix where sliding will now automatically reduce the accuracy of the enemy if they attempt to shoot you as you slide. To add, if you know how to do a V slide attack, then it makes Nova's life more easier against nullies.

 

Removing QT will cause an indirect nerf to other frames using it such as Loki Prime as he also shares the same boosted energy pool with Nova Prime (744 energy with maxed P. Flow) so your argument is invalid.

[Soul.Fire]

When everybody does it, people say nerf, because everybody is doing it.  But, when a handful of people do it and there are other options, then people say nerf anyway.  Nerf because solo.  Nerf because not solo.  Nerf because mods.  Nerf because not-mods.  Nerf because playing a mission for an hour is ... something.  I don't know what.  1 hour is a magic number of some kind.  The significance of these numbers is never related to the players.  There is no concept of a player except to say they are in an easy chair or lazy.  Reaction speeds, attention span, those are not the important numbers.  Fun, personal taste, not important, even if quantifiable, or correlated to quantities.  Not even the basis of the game is considered important.

 

It looks like nerf is always the right thing to say for some people.  They just do not want to see

.  They don't care if DE has stated as far back 2 years ago that Warframe is about the players playing how they want, not about playing in approved ways.  People still come to the forums to make other players conform to their approval.

I would never advocate a nerf. There are 5 or 6 frames that it would make much more sense for people to scream at DE to nerf, Limbo being one of them. I may not like the skills or how some less than stellar people use them, but I'll defend to the death their right to have and use their skills as they see fit. The thing with Nova though, there is a point at which her skill falls off. I've dropped it down to skill because skills plural is a bit of a misnomer. Null Star helps enemies more than it helps you, AMD is a pain, I've had it where I finally managed to pump a decent amount of damage into it and then the game decided I had too much in and the ball rolled over to giving me a bunch of 0's as I was shooting. When it blew up it did absolutely nothing other than make a big flash. Wormhole is only useful outside of combat, it just takes too long to cast in combat to be a good escape route, and enemies follow you through it anyway. But nobody takes that into account it seems. The thing is, Nova is one of the best support /CC casters in the game, but if you don't have other skills to back hers up you are more likely to have problems than not.

[LisRestall]

@ LisRestall - Nova Prime is a bit squishy, but if you mod her right I agree you won't die with her much, at least I don't. However you mentioned above that when you cast MPrime the enemies don't even have enough time to turn around and aim at you. But from my experience in most missions, aren't they already looking at you? I hardly run into mission where they all just got their backs turned to you. Just saying bro.

Just because you applied Mprime doesn't mean you have to run in front of them right? Do a melee attack upwards and drop behind them, kill them as you land.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

@ LisRestall - No I get what you're saying, but I'm just saying to get behind every enemy and then use MPrime seems kinda inefficient I dare say? Besides when you see a large group of enemies I wouldn't wait until I got behind the group to activate my ult would you?

[Soul.Fire]

The problem is because you haven't seen how veterans of the game plays Nova (esp those who have been around upon Nova's release). You'll actually be surprised how fast we copter around and apply Mprime quickly on different places. For my case, I even use a directional melee upwards and cast Mprime there so I am "mobile" while casting, no more need for Natural Talent. She is also so fast in sprinting that slide-shooting is rather easy and I do this alot on nullifiers, in-case you didn't know, there was a hotfix where sliding will now automatically reduce the accuracy of the enemy if they attempt to shoot you as you slide. To add, if you know how to do a V slide attack, then it makes Nova's life more easier against nullies.

 

Removing QT will cause an indirect nerf to other frames using it such as Loki Prime as he also shares the same boosted energy pool with Nova Prime (744 energy with maxed P. Flow) so your argument is invalid.

My argument is perfectly Valid, just because you like to copter around the map like a mad demon doesn't mean everyone else does it. Not even all veteran Nova players do it, you sir are a special case. I copter plenty, I can slide attack, I can do all that S#&$ and I do, but that doesn't always do the trick, you're going to get hit and if there's a S#&$-ton of enemies around you all the spinning, sliding and dashing in the world isn't going to save you forever. You complaining about an indirect nerf to all frames if that one mod is removed? Laughable, because that's just what you're advocating, unfair nerfs to every frame in the game. Nerfing never ends, it's a landslide that never stops, if they nerf Nova, they'll nerf frames like Loki, Vauban, Limbo, any other frame you pick, they'll nerf it, just because they can and just because they think all veteran players want all the frames nerfed, which is most certainly not the case.

[LisRestall]

-snip-

If the chain nerfs would eventually make Warframe a challenging game and balanced then I'm all for it. I would even support the removal of corrupted mods just to make the game more challenging balanced again like how it was before it's introduction.

 

Edited.

Edited January 30, 2015 by LisRestall

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

@ LisRestall - I think I see the real problem for you bro. You don't find warframe challenging anymore. That's a rather easy fix. I'm sure you've guessed it by now. Instead of requesting this or that to be nerfed, just stop playing warframe and move on to the next.

[Insizer]

I thought that by now that this horse has been thoroughly beaten dead 10 times over. I don't use her, but I just regard Nova as a tool, nothing more, nothing less. She can be annoying if used in such a manner, but very helpful as well. If you want a challenge play solo, that's what I do every once and awhile. I grab Ash with a Dread, Despair, and dual Kamas or Dragon Nikana; then make him look as stereotypical ninja as you can get, head to Ceres and try to do missions without the alarm being raised. Yes, that loadout may not sound hard for some, but for me, it is enough.

[.Re-light.]

@ LisRestall - I think I see the real problem for you bro. You don't find warframe challenging anymore. That's a rather easy fix. I'm sure you've guessed it by now. Instead of requesting this or that to be nerfed, just stop playing warframe and move on to the next.

 

 That's never a valid argument in a Warframe forum.

 

Edit. unfollowing, I am starting to sound like one of my not so favorite forumits.

Edited January 30, 2015 by ReLight13

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

@ ReLight - but you will agree it's an option though right?

[LisRestall]

Crippling yourself for challenging gameplay =/= beating the game's challenge.

[Soul.Fire]

If the chain nerfs would eventually make Warframe a challenging game and balanced then I'm all for it. I would even support the removal of corrupted mods just to make the game more challenging.

It's not fair to do that though, that's how you get mediocre games with mediocre weapons with mediocre characters with mediocre powers with severely OP enemies that can one-shot you if they see so much of you as your little finger. It would be CoD, WarFrame style, and that is something we absolutely do not need. You might enjoy Path of Exile though, they don't nerf characters or powers from what this friend of mine who's really into it tells me, rather you have to plan your end-game build from the minute you start the game, they amp up the enemies, give them a super beefy AI, ton of HP, make the bosses idiotically smart, that sort of thing. WarFrame however simply wasn't built to be that complicated, it wasn't meant to be that unfriendly to newer players. Warframe is already currently more or less balanced, what you want would make it completely unbalanced in favor of the enemies, which isn't fair to anybody, veteran players or new players. Not everybody want's to come home from work and die the minute they start a mission.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[ThePresident777]

Crippling Everybody Elses Fun =/= beating the game's challenge.

 

 

EDIT:

 

I would never advocate a nerf. There are 5 or 6 frames that it would make much more sense for people to scream at DE to nerf, Limbo being one of them. I may not like the skills or how some less than stellar people use them, but I'll defend to the death their right to have and use their skills as they see fit. The thing with Nova though, there is a point at which her skill falls off. I've dropped it down to skill because skills plural is a bit of a misnomer. Null Star helps enemies more than it helps you, AMD is a pain, I've had it where I finally managed to pump a decent amount of damage into it and then the game decided I had too much in and the ball rolled over to giving me a bunch of 0's as I was shooting. When it blew up it did absolutely nothing other than make a big flash. Wormhole is only useful outside of combat, it just takes too long to cast in combat to be a good escape route, and enemies follow you through it anyway. But nobody takes that into account it seems. The thing is, Nova is one of the best support /CC casters in the game, but if you don't have other skills to back hers up you are more likely to have problems than not.

 

I agree with you.

Edited January 30, 2015 by ThePresident777

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

^ lolol...

[Soul.Fire]

I thought that by now that this horse has been thoroughly beaten dead 10 times over. I don't use her, but I just regard Nova as a tool, nothing more, nothing less. She can be annoying if used in such a manner, but very helpful as well. If you want a challenge play solo, that's what I do every once and awhile. I grab Ash with a Dread, Despair, and dual Kamas or Dragon Nikana; then make him look as stereotypical ninja as you can get, head to Ceres and try to do missions without the alarm being raised. Yes, that loadout may not sound hard for some, but for me, it is enough.

That's a perfectly acceptable "challenge loadout," not the least reason being what you're trying to accomplish. I like to do that with Loki.

[LisRestall]

-snip-

The thing is, the Warframes are already OP enough as they are. Mprime x2 chain explosion damage, 30% slow and 200% damage taken debuff within 35m range, Sonar 500% more damage dealt when hitting glowing spots within 35m range, Radial Disarm permanently removing enemy's weapons within 20m range, etc. Adding Streamline mod alone makes casting your abilities 30% more frequent, adding Stretch would increase your range by 45%, etc. Which game do you even find such abilities so overpowered by default? Only in Warframe. You can't compare WF to those petty FPS games because Warframe to begin with already had this unique feature where just reading the description of the skills of each warframe, you can already assume that they are so overpowered.

 

Sadly, you are already spoonfed with what current mods are available and is now overly reliant on your warframe abilities than your shooting skills, dodging, reflex, etc. Like this guy,

 

Crippling Everybody Elses Fun =/= beating the game's challenge.

[Soul.Fire]

The thing is, the Warframes are already OP enough as they are. Mprime x2 chain explosion damage, 30% slow and 200% damage taken debuff within 35m range, Sonar 500% more damage dealt when hitting glowing spots within 35m range, Radial Disarm permanently removing enemy's weapons within 20m range, etc. Adding Streamline mod alone makes casting your abilities 30% more frequent, adding Stretch would increase your range by 45%, etc. Which game do you even find such abilities so overpowered by default? Only in Warframe. You can't compare WF to those petty FPS games because Warframe to begin with already had this unique feature where just reading the description of the skills of each warframe, you can already assume that they are so overpowered.

 

Sadly, you are already spoonfed with what current mods are available and is now overly reliant on your warframe abilities than your shooting skills, dodging, reflex, etc. Like this guy,

Do you seriously think that utilizing the tools/abilities given you makes you a worse player? Oh wait, of course you do. You're an elitist, a person who thinks that powers are an easy button and guns are the only acceptable way of dealing damage. And Path of Exile? Not even close to an FPS, but what you want would turn Warframe into a gaming atrocity on par with CoD. All it would be is enemies that can hit you no matter what, and even if they didn't hit on every shot, one or two would be enough to do the trick completely. I'm a perfectly good shot, my reflexes are fine, I can dodge just fine too, what you apparently don't realize is that no matter how good at all of that you are, You Are Still Going To Be Hit Sometimes! And on higher levels that pretty much always means that you're going to take enough damage from one or two hits that a big chunk of your HP is going to go away along with your shields, and 2 hits will usually be enough to kill you.

Molecular Prime doesn't scale, You hit T4 with the @(*()$ thing and you will see how fast it becomes a slow proc and nothing else, you don't get more than 4 explosions max after about 5 waves of T4 defense, and that's with everything on the map primed 3 or 4 times in rapid succession. T4 survival is a little harder to gauge, but everything after 5 minutes and certainly everything after 7 becomes drastically more resistant to the explosions and the damage. You will still empty a full clip and a half into half the enemies before they die. Crewmen and butchers are more squishy that others like bombards, but lancers take a pretty long time to kill too, and the ancients sit there and heal themselves and surrounding enemies. So no, I would never say that we're too powerful, not Nova, not Loki, not Limbo, not even Valkyr or Rhino. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[(XBOX)Skode]

What is truly fascinating is that now DE are really focusing on a year of "quality" as their keyword in making better what we already have in the game and actually took into consideration our most moaned about frames in Nekros and Ember for buffs (they have been and its ongoing with feedback) people come out of the woodwork to moan about the frames which DO get used.

 

Heres a way to do it - dont nerf S#&$. Not a thing, instead make everything as good as the better things so you get your balance - challenge can be better achieved without nerfing the hell out of things we have which actually work well. There is very little positive response which is gonna come from nerfing MP... its versatile and it makes Nova versatile because of that. Nerf something and all people will ever do is lament what was gone and never to return such as the old Ember or the old Iron Skin. MP WORKS! if it aint broke then dont fix it and no... it is not broken.

[Soul.Fire]

What is truly fascinating is that now DE are really focusing on a year of "quality" as their keyword in making better what we already have in the game and actually took into consideration our most moaned about frames in Nekros and Ember for buffs (they have been and its ongoing with feedback) people come out of the woodwork to moan about the frames which DO get used.

 

Heres a way to do it - dont nerf S#&$. Not a thing, instead make everything as good as the better things so you get your balance - challenge can be better achieved without nerfing the hell out of things we have which actually work well. There is very little positive response which is gonna come from nerfing MP... its versatile and it makes Nova versatile because of that. Nerf something and all people will ever do is lament what was gone and never to return such as the old Ember or the old Iron Skin. MP WORKS! if it aint broke then dont fix it and no... it is not broken.

I keep hearing that they're setting us up with a difficulty slider, so I'm looking forward to that. That seems like it would mean we'll be able to either amp enemies up or power them down, depending on how we feel on a particular day.

As for Iron Skin... I'm not sure it was ever broken to begin with, although at one point it was a little bit of an easy button. But now it's a little weird, one of my friends encountered a bug or something where he kept going down and needing us to come revive him while Iron Skin was still active. No idea how that happened.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[AlphaHorseman]

Crippling yourself for challenging gameplay =/= beating the game's challenge.

So forcibly crippling an entire frame equals making the game challenging? No, that's a ludicrous argument.

 

Instead of nerfing the game, you grow it, you increase the enemy mechanics, you buff up the powers that are lackluster to be more interesting and useful, you GROW the game. YOU DON'T nerf the game. You want fun? You want challenge? You make your enemies more interesting to fight. You make your powers more creative and useful, you make your guns more diverse and powerful. YOU DON'T slice apart frames because you feel you don't get challenge.

 

You make the game more appealing to newcomers, you make the game more fun and interesting for old timers like us, you increase its depth, its width, and its connectivity and immersion. YOU DO NOT hurt people's frames and play styles simply because you don't agree with them. GROW the game, NOT slash it down.

[Soul.Fire]

So forcibly crippling an entire frame equals making the game challenging? No, that's a ludicrous argument.

 

Instead of nerfing the game, you grow it, you increase the enemy mechanics, you buff up the powers that are lackluster to be more interesting and useful, you GROW the game. YOU DON'T nerf the game. You want fun? You want challenge? You make your enemies more interesting to fight. You make your powers more creative and useful, you make your guns more diverse and powerful. YOU DON'T slice apart frames because you feel you don't get challenge.

 

You make the game more appealing to newcomers, you make the game more fun and interesting for old timers like us, you increase its depth, its width, and its connectivity and immersion. YOU DO NOT hurt people's frames and play styles simply because you don't agree with them. GROW the game, NOT slash it down.

I think you and I both are wasting our energy on this one, and after this I will probably be un-following this thread, it's getting on my nerves. I am kinda curious to know where you play though, wouldn't mind running a mission or two with you one of these days if you feel like it.

[AlphaHorseman]

I think you and I both are wasting our energy on this one, and after this I will probably be un-following this thread, it's getting on my nerves. I am kinda curious to know where you play though, wouldn't mind running a mission or two with you one of these days if you feel like it.

I'll add you as a friend once I'm online. I'm a Hawai'i player, I'd be happy to join on once I have the time!

 

Ugh, its just annoying because constantly nerfing things doesn't grow or evolve the paradigm of the game because it's forcing things to conform to the current paradigm. If we really want this game to grow, we and our enemies and the environment of the game needs to grow and evolve, to become more interesting, more fun, more broad and more in-depth.

[Soul.Fire]

I'll add you as a friend once I'm online. I'm a Hawai'i player, I'd be happy to join on once I have the time!

 

Ugh, its just annoying because constantly nerfing things doesn't grow or evolve the paradigm of the game because it's forcing things to conform to the current paradigm. If we really want this game to grow, we and our enemies and the environment of the game needs to grow and evolve, to become more interesting, more fun, more broad and more in-depth.

Oh right on, I'm west coast US, Oregon to be precise, so that should be ok. Our time-zones more or less overlap.

 

I actually have noticed the maps at least getting more interesting, they've added quite a few new bits to a lot of the tilesets, I can't even count all the new little rooms I've found the last few days. But yeah, no more nerfing, nerfing is where games start dying, and from there it's just all downhill after that. I'd be perfectly happy with them amping up the AI and making the enemies more interesting though. That would actually be pretty cool.

 

Edit: Thread unfollowed, I'll be in-game or checking the other threads if you want to chat Alpha.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[ThePresident777]

Somehow "Crippling Everybody Elses Fun =/= beating the game's challenge." is considered agreeable when promoting nerfs.  Yet, "Crippling Everybody Elses Fun =/= beating the game's challenge." is not considered agreeable when nerfs are opposed.  Sounds like a double standard to me.

 

How is it OP to have 30% slow or 200% damage buff within 35m range, or both?  How is it OP to have 500% more damage dealt when hitting glowing spots within 35m range?  How is it OP to Radial Disarm permanently removing enemy's weapons within 20m range?  I'd like to see what objective standard proves that such things are OP.  Then, I'd like to see what objective standard proves that OP is not acceptable.

 

How is it not OP for 4 Tenno to Devastate a Massive Army?  How is that not good? 

 

People complain that the weapons are too powerful.  So we can see where "just use weapons" will take us.

Edited January 30, 2015 by ThePresident777

[LisRestall]

Spoonfed players be spoiled. I'm done with this thread.