Stealth Feedback & Suggestions Thread

[_Chaser]

being able to turn off the alarms is already on the list. implementing mod for that is redundant

[beastotch]

n7snk, have you considered adding the idea of improving AI awareness?  You can see my previous few posts for more info, but if I had to distill my concerns into a credo, it would be this:

I don't think that enemies should appear to be omniscient or to have any powers of precognition that aren't presented in a diegetically substantive way.

 

Thanks for starting this thread.  You might brush up your formatting on the original post if you get a chance, and spare a few moments to make your responses less brusque, but I do appreciate your maintaining this thread.

[_Chaser]

sure, well i can elaborate: enemies can see where are you when alert is set and thats alright thing. the problem is no mehcanism to set it off yet.

 

when enemies spoted you but you prevented them from alert, they will try to kill you and enemies in next room will stay cautious for some time and after then return to safe mode.

 

so i don't think we have major problems except mechanism to turn off alarms and reward system. i'm currently trying to contact Scott and find out how enemy spawn mechanics work, so may be i will be able to come up with more detailed suggestion how stealth rewards should work.

 

FEEDBACK / CRITISM REQUIRED

 

STEALTH REWARD SYSTEM (end mission bonus)

if person completed whole mission undetected he recieve good xp + credits bonus wih penalties based on:

1) ammount of enemies killed.

2) ammount of alarms triggered. if person triggered more then 2 alarms he would not recieve end mission bonus.

3) if alarm(s) was/were longer then some ammount of time player don't recieve end mission stealth bonus at all.

this way player would not be able to get bonus turning off alarm in the end of mission.

all three together should prevent farming stealth bonus.

Edited May 10, 2013 by n7snk

[MusicGamer]

Something that I dunno if it was suggested yet:  

 

Certain abilities that, logically, shouldn't cause aggro in certain enemies, does indeed cause said aggro.  I'm talking about abilities like Shuriken (which is an odd concept as it is, using energy to throw something that a Paris can easily do without the energy usage) or Sonar (to my knowledge, the way sonar works in real life is it emits a ping that is such a high frequency that humans can't hear it).  The use of either of these abilities near an enemy results in being detected.  I feel like this is a flaw.

 

Then again, perhaps this is just me and I've finally snapped and gone off the deep end.

[Rabcor]

Nice makeover, i actually read it all this time. i agree with every single one.

 

But at 1)amount of enemies killed

 

(spelled amount, not ammount)

 

It's arguable whether or not killing more enemies should reward extra bonuses or killing less would.

 

I personally think killing less enemies should be rewarded (similar to hitman absolution) seeing as if you're stealthing and less enemies are spawning you will get less xp(affinity) since you're not mowing down hordes of enemies all the time. however if not stealthing you'll get a lot more exp just from the kills.

 

Maybe limiting it to 2-3 enemies per room before score starts to drop would be cool.

Edited May 11, 2013 by rabcor

[British]

I'm kinda on the opposite... I like to clean up in stealth (AKA kill everything).

[_Chaser]

well, if you will kill everything stealthy you will get enough xp for killing enemies. so your end mission bonus will be less to balance it.

ammount of enemies in unalerted state is still less then in alerted, so it should be reasonable.

Edited May 11, 2013 by n7snk

[Valentine_Grim]

There is a concept this game could implement in some way - the one used in "Deus Ex: Human revolution". There were, basically, three options, aside from shooting enemy in the face:

1) Going by, leaving patrol as is. It is absolutely silent, but leaves a chance that at some point he will spot you and start an alarm.

2) Knocking out, dragging somewhere safe. Creates negligible muffled noise (so there would be no situations, when patrols were Batman'd while standing two steps away from each other), gives you more freedom, but there is a chance that somebody would stumble upon this silly sleepy head, wake him up and still start an alarm, In "Human revolution" it granted you the biggest amount of xp, since it means taking the biggest risk - not only approaching the target, but also leaving it dormant, not fully incapacitated. Also, in "Warframe" there is no "dragging" mechanic, so any knocked out body is bound to lie inconspicuously right at next patrol's feet.

3) Smacking the fool. Any enemy getting a piece of metal up his colon would shout his lungs out, alarming any comrades in moderate area. In "HR" you had to stash the body somewhere, still risking being exposed, but in "WF" bodies desintegrate, leaving no trace.

 

If final bonus of "fully stealthy" runthrough was calculated, say, by scaling number of guards that were killed (easiest way to deal with threat of exposure), knocked out (middle ground) and left completely oblivious to your presence (as all cool ninjas do), I think it would create a fair competition to classic approach. And if there was a chance to score a card from a container or locker, considering you are still in the clear, it would equalize both concepts in terms of farming.

 

To summarise, in "WF" you CAN implement stealth, but that is where it ends. It still has more of a MMO AI, than stealth-oriented AI, so trying to beat the level stealthy is a game of football, where you are the offence and the goalkeeper at the same time. More work is in order (and decent share of points was made in this very trade) to make the game to cooperate with you in your attempt to use it's mechanics. Fingers crossed for more love from devs in that direction. Versatility is a virtue.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Valentine_Grim

[michigogo]

I agree but no farming bonus. All people are going to play in stealth just to farm...

[VelenoHargreaves]

I'm waiting untill Update 8 to give more feedback about stealth...

[Shockwaye]

U know all what really stinks? That you cant do stealth on moas!!!

[_Chaser]

charged attacks

[gaurdianaq]

this is just a thought, but maybe make it take like 1-2 seconds longer for them to set off the alarm, seems kind of impossible to stop them if they get close enough and such.

[_Chaser]

this is just a thought, but maybe make it take like 1-2 seconds longer for them to set off the alarm, seems kind of impossible to stop them if they get close enough and such.

it's reasonable thing. alarm pannel is meant to be used easily in dangerous situation. the only problem is that we can't hack terminal to turn alert off yet.

[O.M.F]

really i just want to know why i can on stealth kill one or two times, but i totally agree with upping the stealth aspect. 

[shadow7777]

I really think that the throwing knives and crossbows are needed here

[_Chaser]

it seems like game somehow track deteced / undetected status on players separately. when my temmates were going gunblazing i was able to get couple of undetected kills for bonus mission. alarm was not triggered. need further confirmation.

Edited May 13, 2013 by n7snk

[-CM-5ouL]

I'm just posting this here because I made a seperate topic on stealth (sorry!!!). I'm also sorry if this may have already been brought up during the course of this topic.

 

 

Ok so I've been reading other's ideas for stealth (very good ideas btw) and I feel as though everyone is overlooking a simple solution. Why not just make Stealth a mission on its own, rather than trying to implement it into other missions?

 

1) Stealth Extermination: Just like Extermination the mission is to kill all the enemys, but without being seen or setting off the alarms. The moment you are spotted and the alarm is turned on (<-- both have to happen, otherwise you can hurry up and kill the one who spotted you before he turns the alarm on), the mission then turns into a normal Extermination and you lose a chance for bonus exp and/or credit (bonus exp and/or credit would be good inspiration for people to not come in and ruin everything and also because stealth is more hard to do).

 

2) Recon: Recon can be very similar to Spy missions. The twist would be that you only have to go to each terminal and then to the extraction point without being spotted and tripping the alarm. If the case of being spotted, the mission could then play like a normal Spy mission. The motivation would be the same, losing a chance for bonus exp and/or credit.

 

Now my initial thought was as soon as you are seen and the alarms go off, the mission fails (like on Rescue when the person dies, although with that mission you could also turn it into Extermination after they die instead of instant fail...maybe getting a deduction in the amount of normal exp and/or credit.)

 

Let me know what you think, and maybe try to come up with more missions or fix any loopholes in mine. Please go easy on me, these are just ideas I wanted to throw out there.

[British]

I'm just posting this here because I made a seperate topic on stealth (sorry!!!). I'm also sorry if this may have already been brought up during the course of this topic.

That's interesting, though I'm guessing the majority of players are not that much into subtlety and thus might find it deterrent to be forced into it (I'd love to be proven wrong though !).

It's also probably much easier to allow some more stealthing into the actual maps than create a new mode.

But hey, it's still beta, so you never know (and we are yet to see what Update 8 can possibly bring in that regard)...

[-CM-5ouL]

That's interesting, though I'm guessing the majority of players are not that much into subtlety and thus might find it deterrent to be forced into it (I'd love to be proven wrong though !).

It's also probably much easier to allow some more stealthing into the actual maps than create a new mode.

But hey, it's still beta, so you never know (and we are yet to see what Update 8 can possibly bring in that regard)...

 

Well you wouldn't be forced, that's why I used the word Bonus...meaning you'll just get normal exp and/or credit if you don't wanna be stealthy. The option is still yours to make.

 

I agree that it'd probably be easier to allow stealth on actual maps rather than new modes, but if you want something to be good you can't always take the easy way out.

 

But I am interested in what update 8 will bring :)

[Kennard]

I still want to bring up the suggestion of a separate mode for stealth. It's a lot more effective than using the random-generated maps (with no world view).

Here's what I suggest in Stealth mode:
New maps with things to cater to stealth (no more open fields/halls with high risk, if you're seen then it's legit).
Special units will come after you instead of normal ones in a large area where they will respawn moderately until you disable the Alert.
Rating based on how many times you were detected and how many special units you killed (better rating for less of them killed). Some missions will give a better rating based on how fast you completed it, based on a ranking system (player-based).
Cooldown on Alert systems, enemy AI patterns rigged to be more predictable (this is so items will not hinder you, and is a better choice than random AI due to avoiding consistency issues with how smooth gameplay can be), and enemy AI require a certain distance (AND vision in Infested's case) in order to alert others, unless certain contact such as loud gunfire is made.
Enemy spawn pattern disappears, guards will be on guaranteed areas on the map (won't move out of it unless specific contact leads them out) after randomly being spawned into an area.
Respawn disabled.
Special gauge at a movable part of the screen (adjustable with settings) notifying you of your current detection level.
Enemy units require full vision of you before going to the Control Console (Grineer/Corpus).
Cameras on Corpus levels redirected for convenience, but will instead activate the Control Console immediately on sight.
Control Console hacking becomes a direct mainframe connection (temporary; once per use according to the area even if you don't succeed) which allows disabling of cameras, cutting off power to certain areas (requires a specific item to do, night vision is also required), and other options.
Detection based on failing to hack a Control Console will cause up to 4 units to head to the area, depending on how well or bad you did.
Panel hacking (moving so that every line connects to each other) does not begin until 5 seconds have passed since seeing the actual puzzle, or you have commenced clicking.
World-view of the map.
Special choice rewards for completing missions on this mode. I propose titles that flaunt your accomplishments around (or things that are available only after you've done certain goals), choice of a mod or two that you want (may need more missions completed for Rarer types), or specific rewards in regards to completing or even achieving blueprints (caters to Raid, but can be inputted into other modes).
Credit reward will be dependent on how many containers you broke/opened. Generally will be in low amounts, but things such as Alloy Plates will have a higher chance of appearing.
A separate gauge will be available on Spy, Capture, and Assassination missions for enemy Morale: decreases based on enemy deaths and what rank of enemy (this is just for a title, but it's also used to make AI much more predictable, delay AI actions, etc.). Fear tactics will make enemies proceed more cautiously (enemy voices make a difference now).
Module drop chances lowered on normal units (almost impossible to get, in order to discourage killing them), heavier unit deaths will have a higher than normal chance (slight boost, more on preference on demoralizing the enemy).
All weapons' base damage on charge attacks/stealth attacks turned to a flat number.
Bosses will now be alone in Assassination missions.

Objective changes can still occur, however they happen much earlier.

[Experimental] Chance to meet other players in the mode. Note: The newer maps must be pretty huge, not necessarily differing from each other in a massive format quality. The chance to meet others comes from a "map connection," and only two players can ever have a "map connection" at a time. You will receive a notice if a player has entered, but if Solo mode is activated, you will not have a "map connection" occur. Objectives can be different if this occurs, which then leads a player to have a choice in leaving them be, or helping them out if they need it. "Map connections" will always begin or end depending on if a player goes through special blue doors (which then bring up a loading screen). This would require a dedicated server or something strong to allow host connections to remain at the same speed though.

Revamp to current things:
Mod added to create permanent stealth for Shade, separate from Ghost Precept.
Decoy on Loki now stealths Loki until the Decoy is destroyed, as long as there is an enemy unit within a reasonable distance from Loki. Decoy also makes noise 1 second after activation.
Shuriken homes in on enemy units slightly.
Ash's Teleport is silent, Loki's Switch Teleport will prevent detection if the enemy was at a higher/lower elevation or if Loki is stealthed. Loki's Switch Teleport will also lower Morale without causing an enemy death.
Banshee's Sonar now causes insta-death on units if they are struck while it is active (Stealth mode only).
Ash's Uber will be changed while in Stealth mode to be a single, silent target death (no effect on bosses).
(will add more as soon as I remember more issues with frames)

New items:
An item that allows vision in the darkness; disables and replaces flashlight.
Item that can disable power to certain areas through the Control Console (along with other items to do more options, some would be available when scavenging containers that can be opened and not broken, giving incentive to do so).
Fear tactic items such as Smoke Bombs (obscure vision but don't give invisibility), Flashbangs, Holographic decoy that continuously moves in an area until out of enemy vision or shot (needs to be tested on how many shots would make it viable without making it tanky but preventing it from lasting too short), etc. for Grineer missions.
Disguise tactic available for Grineer missions.
Handheld hacker: Causes Corpus mainframe false order commands, making them go to an area thinking an intruder just arrived from the way you were just at. Effective only when a Control Console is nearby and can be seen. Stealth remains if this item is in use.
Infested bait: Let the suckers go at a random area where a special gas that attracts the technocyte-infected units is released. Blows up a half second after throwing (can bounce). Fluid disappears if a unit remains around the smoke for 6 seconds. All Infested units in a large area will be affected and will ignore you entirely. Note: Can last up to 12 seconds if you somehow keep the smoke in a place where units cannot reach (above crates, high in the air, etc.).

Edited May 14, 2013 by Kennard

[Jakiller]

3) ash skills should not cause alarm

 

5) Loki and Ash invisibility should cloak the Sentinel too

6) shade being detected while crouching. make enemies ignore shade while owner is crouching.
 

misc suggestions

1) flashlight - being able to turn off warframe's flashlight to decrease chance of spoting

2) silent sidearms - crossbow / dual crossbows / throwable knives that don't impale enemies to walls, with curve trajectory

3) level restart option in solo.- just one more button in menu to restart level

 

 

 

Not much of a stealth player but these are too great to be ignored.

[_Chaser]

I still want to bring up the suggestion of a separate mode for stealth. It's a lot more effective than using the random-generated maps (with no world view).

Here's what I suggest in Stealth mode:

New maps with things to cater to stealth (no more open fields/halls with high risk, if you're seen then it's legit).

Special units will come after you instead of normal ones in a large area where they will respawn moderately until you disable the Alert.

Rating based on how many times you were detected and how many special units you killed (better rating for less of them killed). Some missions will give a better rating based on how fast you completed it, based on a ranking system (player-based).

Cooldown on Alert systems, enemy AI patterns rigged to be more predictable (this is so items will not hinder you, and is a better choice than random AI due to avoiding consistency issues with how smooth gameplay can be), and enemy AI require a certain distance (AND vision in Infested's case) in order to alert others, unless certain contact such as loud gunfire is made.

Enemy spawn pattern disappears, guards will be on guaranteed areas on the map (won't move out of it unless specific contact leads them out) after randomly being spawned into an area.

Respawn disabled.

Special gauge at a movable part of the screen (adjustable with settings) notifying you of your current detection level.

Enemy units require full vision of you before going to the Control Console (Grineer/Corpus).

Cameras on Corpus levels redirected for convenience, but will instead activate the Control Console immediately on sight.

Control Console hacking becomes a direct mainframe connection (temporary; once per use according to the area even if you don't succeed) which allows disabling of cameras, cutting off power to certain areas (requires a specific item to do, night vision is also required), and other options.

Detection based on failing to hack a Control Console will cause up to 4 units to head to the area, depending on how well or bad you did.

Panel hacking (moving so that every line connects to each other) does not begin until 5 seconds have passed since seeing the actual puzzle, or you have commenced clicking.

World-view of the map.

Special choice rewards for completing missions on this mode. I propose titles that flaunt your accomplishments around (or things that are available only after you've done certain goals), choice of a mod or two that you want (may need more missions completed for Rarer types), or specific rewards in regards to completing or even achieving blueprints (caters to Raid, but can be inputted into other modes).

Credit reward will be dependent on how many containers you broke/opened. Generally will be in low amounts, but things such as Alloy Plates will have a higher chance of appearing.

A separate gauge will be available on Spy, Capture, and Assassination missions for enemy Morale: decreases based on enemy deaths and what rank of enemy (this is just for a title, but it's also used to make AI much more predictable, delay AI actions, etc.). Fear tactics will make enemies proceed more cautiously (enemy voices make a difference now).

Module drop chances lowered on normal units (almost impossible to get, in order to discourage killing them), heavier unit deaths will have a higher than normal chance (slight boost, more on preference on demoralizing the enemy).

All weapons' base damage on charge attacks/stealth attacks turned to a flat number.

Bosses will now be alone in Assassination missions.

Objective changes can still occur, however they happen much earlier.

[Experimental] Chance to meet other players in the mode. Note: The newer maps must be pretty huge, not necessarily differing from each other in a massive format quality. The chance to meet others comes from a "map connection," and only two players can ever have a "map connection" at a time. You will receive a notice if a player has entered, but if Solo mode is activated, you will not have a "map connection" occur. Objectives can be different if this occurs, which then leads a player to have a choice in leaving them be, or helping them out if they need it. "Map connections" will always begin or end depending on if a player goes through special blue doors (which then bring up a loading screen). This would require a dedicated server or something strong to allow host connections to remain at the same speed though.

Revamp to current things:

Mod added to create permanent stealth for Shade, separate from Ghost Precept.

Decoy on Loki now stealths Loki until the Decoy is destroyed, as long as there is an enemy unit within a reasonable distance from Loki. Decoy also makes noise 1 second after activation.

Shuriken homes in on enemy units slightly.

Ash's Teleport is silent, Loki's Switch Teleport will prevent detection if the enemy was at a higher/lower elevation or if Loki is stealthed. Loki's Switch Teleport will also lower Morale without causing an enemy death.

Banshee's Sonar now causes insta-death on units if they are struck while it is active (Stealth mode only).

Ash's Uber will be changed while in Stealth mode to be a single, silent target death (no effect on bosses).

(will add more as soon as I remember more issues with frames)

New items:

An item that allows vision in the darkness; disables and replaces flashlight.

Item that can disable power to certain areas through the Control Console (along with other items to do more options, some would be available when scavenging containers that can be opened and not broken, giving incentive to do so).

Fear tactic items such as Smoke Bombs (obscure vision but don't give invisibility), Flashbangs, Holographic decoy that continuously moves in an area until out of enemy vision or shot (needs to be tested on how many shots would make it viable without making it tanky but preventing it from lasting too short), etc. for Grineer missions.

Disguise tactic available for Grineer missions.

Handheld hacker: Causes Corpus mainframe false order commands, making them go to an area thinking an intruder just arrived from the way you were just at. Effective only when a Control Console is nearby and can be seen. Stealth remains if this item is in use.

Infested bait: Let the suckers go at a random area where a special gas that attracts the technocyte-infected units is released. Blows up a half second after throwing (can bounce). Fluid disappears if a unit remains around the smoke for 6 seconds. All Infested units in a large area will be affected and will ignore you entirely. Note: Can last up to 12 seconds if you somehow keep the smoke in a place where units cannot reach (above crates, high in the air, etc.).

err can you rework it a little bit to make it as short to point as possible, so i will be able to add this to first post and people will actually manage to read it. (previous OP was too long and people were skipping it)

[DoctorBrookes]

Here's a big one that I think needs to be addressed and may have been addressed in this thread. 

 

Telepathic guards.  Why is it that if ONE enemy sees me, every enemy on the map instantly knows my location no matter what? Do they all have a hive mind?

[_Chaser]

it happens only after alert. *you are on the sensors now. you have been detected* i guess thats alright.

if alert was not triggered enemies would not know where are you exacly