Warframe's Ultimate Killing Machine Radial Javelin

[tris1]

Read the previous posts, same argument as many others have. >,> 

 

33.3% slash (causes finisher or bleed damage), 33.3% puncture (weakens enemy damage) and 33.3% impact (knock back) damage. Go to a level 1 mission and have negative power strength build on Radial Javelin so you wont be able to kill any enemies. Go to a Sechura, Pluto have the same build for Radial Javelin, you will still do the same damage on high leveled enemies.

And that's part of the problem. The proc chance is very low near to non exsistent it's not reliable source of damage and even then that one proc could land on an enemy you didn't even want. There are other frames that do much more damage. how is the damage the same at higher levels when you cat a javlin that has 1000 damage it then equal goes to part in puncture/slash/impact that means that armour would still effect the damage.

There is no cap to the amount of javlins can spawn they took that out when the made it into a radial javlin instread of a capped number it's like frames raidal damages they can't hit as many as they want.

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

And that's part of the problem. The proc chance is very low near to non exsistent it's not reliable source of damage and even then that one proc could land on an enemy you didn't even want. There are other frames that do much more damage. how is the damage the same at higher levels when you cat a javlin that has 1000 damage it then equal goes to part in puncture/slash/impact that means that armour would still effect the damage.

There is no cap to the amount of javlins can spawn they took that out when the made it into a radial javlin instread of a capped number it's like frames raidal damages they can't hit as many as they want.

 

Specific Instructions to check if your damage does the same damage no matter what enemy level.

 

Put on an overextended to destroy your power strength and a stretch so your Javelins can reach. Go to Mercury, kill low level Grinners make sure you see the damage dealt for your Javelins. Go to Ceres go to a high leveled Grinner mission and pay attention to your Javelin damage, this point you wont be able to kill them but will take multiple Javelins to kill them. Do the same thing with other factions they will vary, but their damage for example low level infested and high level infested will be the same. 

 

I checked multiple times the damage is the same no matter what level. You will get around less or above 400 damage if you have energy siphon on, no power strength and max overextended. 

 

Try it with Saryn as well and see why I am so disappointed by her Miasma.  

 

Its a game, logic doesn't have to be taken into account because same logic says, it should take 1 bullet to kill an enemy because it takes 1 bullet to kill a person, life support is wasted when doing melee damage and running, the key to survival is separating from each other and running away to kill the enemies, furthermore it is just a game and not real life. Though the developers work hard to perfect the mechanics, it has many errors that, defy logic. 

 

Ill take your word for it and fatpig84 word for no Javelin cap. As far as I have seen their aren't usually enough enemies for me to launch over 50 Javelins. I usually count between 20-30 Javelins, but then again that is an instant estimation of how many numbers pop up. 

[tris1]

Specific Instructions to check if your damage does the same damage no matter what enemy level.

 

Put on an overextended to destroy your power strength and a stretch so your Javelins can reach. Go to Mercury, kill low level Grinners make sure you see the damage dealt for your Javelins. Go to Ceres go to a high leveled Grinner mission and pay attention to your Javelin damage, this point you wont be able to kill them but will take multiple Javelins to kill them. Do the same thing with other factions they will vary, but their damage for example low level infested and high level infested will be the same. 

 

I checked multiple times the damage is the same no matter what level. You will get around less or above 400 damage if you have energy siphon on, no power strength and max overextended. 

 

Try it with Saryn as well and see why I am so disappointed by her Miasma.  

 

Its a game, logic doesn't have to be taken into account because same logic says, it should take 1 bullet to kill an enemy because it takes 1 bullet to kill a person, life support is wasted when doing melee damage and running, the key to survival is separating from each other and running away to kill the enemies, furthermore it is just a game and not real life. Though the developers work hard to perfect the mechanics, it has many errors that, defy logic. 

 

Ill take your word for it and fatpig84 word for no Javelin cap. As far as I have seen their aren't usually enough enemies for me to launch over 50 Javelins. I usually count between 20-30 Javelins, but then again that is an instant estimation of how many numbers pop up. 

ill see what you mean when I have time

[Ryjeon]

I'm not so sure about the game as a whole. Because there is plenty of other content you can play without resorting to standing in one place repeatedly nuking. But I do feel it has destroyed Excalibur, who used to be one of my favorite frames when Radial Blind was his primary ability.  Granted its absolute CC trivialized most difficulty but you still had to moved around and attack with your weapons, and that necessary mobility felt good. Playing like this is still okay but now I just don't feel comfortable playing Excalibur because everyone expects him to be played as Radial Javelin bomber.

 

Please turn Radial Javelin into a cone barrage ability like Anhur's Desert Fury in Smite but wider. It would be a nerf but at least it would be more interesting to play and would promote utilizing Excalibur's horizontal and vertical mobility skills to get the perfect positioning. And it would feel so much like actual Javelins instead of a Mag Crush rip off. Please. Please. Please. I'd even just take it as an augment. I totally want to nerf Excalibur so I can have fun playing him again.

 

Desert Fury -

 

I would implement it where when Excalibur is grounded he fires them in a cone but strictly straight on the horizontal axis. But if Excal is in the air like during a superjump he fires it in a wide circle. Maybe also allow him to charge and release it to guide how wide or thin an area you want to effect, and to give you some idea of where it's going to hit. So you can gain more dps against a focused target. And let him stay mobile so that the Javelin Barrage follows your view so you can hit the targets you intend to. A skill like this just seems full of interesting uses that fit a mobile melee-centric frame like Excalibur. Unlike the current Radial Javelin which really only fits one option, and it is an option that is already done by several other frames.

 

C'mon the augment is already called Furious Javelin. You know what must be done. ;)

Edited February 8, 2015 by Ryjeon

[MechaKnight]

These threads come up because nuking in a 2*pi*r^3 sphere is objectively better than most other abilities because it hits infinite targets in a huge area. Some of this problem can be cured by making other choices seem more suitable than radial spam at a given moment.

 

For example, Slash Dash only does 500 damage base, but Radial Javelin does 1000. The mindless spam radial ability is still better all the time than the precision aim, more limited ability. This is backwards to what should be the case.

 

What if Slash Dash did 3000 base damage? Because it is stronger, you may choose to use it given its damage. Even if you are hitting fewer targets, you are dealing damage at a lower cost, and the utility of SD is different than RJ. That said, it is possible to displace radial spam by balancing other abilities to compare to be better than radials.

 

What about comparing radials to each other? Radial Blind is not as favorable compared to Radial Javelin due to line-of-sight and similar distance. What if Radial Blind had more range than Radial Javelin, and/or Radial Javelin was more limited? Players would choose the utility of blind sometimes over the damage of javelin.

 

That said, the problem in a general sense is that "easy mode" radial spamming is currently more profitable than skill-based precision abilities in the objective sense. An overhaul rebalance of the entire ability system, or a rebalance per warframe within their respective kits can solve this issue. The changes should be done widely across all warframes simultaneously if the change is expected to stick in the community. It is also ideal to release said changes along with an expansion in the solar system and "end game", so players have something more sturdy to use their ability against on balanced terms.

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

I'm not so sure about the game as a whole. Because there is plenty of other content you can play without resorting to standing in one place repeatedly nuking. But I do feel it has destroyed Excalibur, who used to be one of my favorite frames when Radial Blind was his primary ability.  Granted its absolute CC trivialized most difficulty but you still had to moved around and attack with your weapons, and that necessary mobility felt good. Playing like this is still okay but now I just don't feel comfortable playing Excalibur because everyone expects him to be played as Radial Javelin bomber.

 

Please turn Radial Javelin into a cone barrage ability like Anhur's Desert Fury in Smite but wider. It would be a nerf but at least it would be more interesting to play and would promote utilizing Excalibur's horizontal and vertical mobility skills to get the perfect positioning. And it would feel so much like actual Javelins instead of a Mag Crush rip off. Please. Please. Please. I'd even just take it as an augment. I totally want to nerf Excalibur so I can have fun playing him again.

 

Desert Fury -

 

I would implement it where when Excalibur is grounded he fires them in a cone but strictly straight on the horizontal axis. But if Excal is in the air like during a superjump he fires it in a wide circle. Maybe also allow him to charge and release it to guide how wide or thin an area you want to effect, and to give you some idea of where it's going to hit. So you can gain more dps against a focused target. And let him stay mobile so that the Javelin Barrage follows your view so you can hit the targets you intend to. A skill like this just seems full of interesting uses that fit a mobile melee-centric frame like Excalibur. Unlike the current Radial Javelin which really only fits one option, and it is an option that is already done by several other frames.

 

C'mon the augment is already called Furious Javelin. You know what must be done. ;)

 

I agree with you. I liked it better when he had his Radial Blind back then it was so fun going in crowds with my dakra impaling people while their blind. 

Impaling people looked so cool. I felt really good and people were like damn! Overkill! lol

[AlphaHorseman]

Says this:

 

THIS POST IS PRIMARILY TO INFORM FORUM READERS THAT RADIAL JAVELIN CAN GIVE YOU MASS AMOUNTS OF KILLS IN A VERY SHORT TIME AND NOT AT ALL A POST THAT STATES "NERF" RADIAL JAVELIN.

 

and then titles the thread this:

 

EXCALIBURS ULTIMATE RADIAL JAVELIN IS LITERALLY KILLING WARFRAME THE GAME AS A WHOLE

 

Yea-no.

 

He doesn't even need a nerf. If anything, he's in need of buffing.

Edited February 9, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

"What if Slash Dash did 3000 base damage."

I made a Slash Dash build with Excalibur before trying to figure out his Slash Dash capabilities. I really liked how far he can travel. If he did have 3000 base damage I'd use it like crazy to do exterminate missions. :)

 

 "easy mode" radial spamming is currently more profitable than skill-based precision abilities in the objective sense. I agree. I just did a tower 4 defense, 30 fast waves, and got 69% of the damage and 1000 kills jumping, running using Radial javelin and my team mates couldn't take my kills. Prove all those Excalibur Radial Javelin nay say's. :D  

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

Says this:

 

 

and then titles the thread this:

 

EXCALIBURS ULTIMATE RADIAL JAVELIN IS LITERALLY KILLING WARFRAME THE GAME AS A WHOLE

 

Yea-no.

 

He doesn't even need a nerf. If anything, he's in need of buffing.

 

Titles are meant to catch the readers attention. Look at all your tabloid Journalism. Title's are generally meant to hide true intentions. 

[OnimaruX]

Ah Radial Javelin use to be the worst ultimate in the game now it's one of the best and players are asking for nerfs, when they wanted it buffed...idiots!

I'll tell one thing I hate about mmo developers is that they have an stupid habit of yoyo balancing, seriously they make a move or class overpowered, then nerf it to S#&$ then buff it again then hit it with another nerf and vice versa it's seriously annoying and DE shouldn't do this!

[MechaKnight]

I'll tell one thing I hate about mmo developers is that they have an stupid habit of yoyo balancing, seriously they make a move or class overpowered, then nerf it to S#&$ then buff it again then hit it with another nerf and vice versa it's seriously annoying and DE shouldn't do this!

You put a gold nugget on one plate of the scale, and put some coins in the other plate. The coins don't weigh enough, so you put in more coins. Now the coins are too heavy, so you remove some and put in smaller coins in place. Maybe that's not enough, so you put in some bills. That's too heavy...

 

For the most part, the nuggets are the game, and the coins are the abilities. The idea is to make our abilities strong enough to suit gameplay, but not too strong. Balance is not easy, and mistakes will happen. I'm not surprised game developers have to struggle with balance so much. As customers, we want the perfect balance so nothing will need to be touched ever again, but that's fantasy. Between new game content being added (gold nuggets) as well as new warframes and weapons (coins), there will probably be an endless cycle of balance until content stops flowing.

[Celestias]

:o This post does not please excal lovers. WE WAITED OVER A YEAR FOR HIM TO GET BUFFED AND THEN HE GOT NERFED AND UNNERFED OVER SUCH RANTING...

 

Seriously though this change is nice for a change.. poster boy's getting hate mail lol..

 

#Don'tTouchMyExcalAfterIWaitedForThisMoment!

[RealPandemonium]

:o This post does not please excal lovers. WE WAITED OVER A YEAR FOR HIM TO GET BUFFED AND THEN HE GOT NERFED AND UNNERFED OVER SUCH RANTING...

 

Seriously though this change is nice for a change.. poster boy's getting hate mail lol..

 

#Don'tTouchMyExcalAfterIWaitedForThisMoment!

They didn't buff, but transform him into a farming tool in the laziest way possible.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

By lazy, do you mean, in the most enjoyable possible way ever? Like I've always said, to each his own.

[AlphaHorseman]

They didn't buff, but transform him into a farming tool in the laziest way possible.

No, they buffed him. 

 

Your perspective makes you think he's solely that.

 

Removing the target limit from RJ is decidedly a buff. A byproduct of that buff is that a few people using him to quick farm rep points. It isn't even that bad of a thing. Overall this is a buff to all players who use Excalibur, though RB got a bit of a gimp while RJ got the boost.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

^ what he said

[RealPandemonium]

No, they buffed him. 

 

Your perspective makes you think he's solely that.

 

Removing the target limit from RJ is decidedly a buff. A byproduct of that buff is that a few people using him to quick farm rep points. It isn't even that bad of a thing. Overall this is a buff to all players who use Excalibur, though RB got a bit of a gimp while RJ got the boost.

They took an ability that had a unique premise (for a 4 ability, lol) and had the potential to have great design and turned it into a generic radial nuke, except it has longer range than other radial nukes so it becomes THE BEST BUILD for farming because it can hit the whole map instead of just the whole room.  

[AlphaHorseman]

They took an ability that had a unique premise (for a 4 ability, lol) and had the potential to have great design and turned it into a generic radial nuke, except it has longer range than other radial nukes so it becomes THE BEST BUILD for farming because it can hit the whole map instead of just the whole room.  

It still functions and does the same damage as before, only difference is it actually hits more targets now and doesn't hit the terrain like how it could before. Oh and it has a better stun.

 

If by unique you mean blocked by terrain, target limited, required LoS, then sure, it guess it was unique in that for a useless ult that could barely do damage it was also limited by factors the players themselves couldn't mod for.

 

The ability retains it unique style, no other ability in the game has energy swords flying at the enemy and stunning them while the energy blades are lodged in their bodies. It has a great design, but it is better now because it isn't limited by stupid LoS, terrain blocking, or target limits.

 

You're assuming that (all modding options considered), a player has modded for maxed range on their Radial Javelin. Even so, maxed duration Molecular Prime can exceed that, and even Disco Ball Mirage if you throw on the Overextended and let the ball go flying into the distance. The build can't hit the whole map, that's only the case in small areas like Defense or Interception, you're not even looking to consider 90% of the rest of the games content that isn't that small. It is literally a fraction of the content that even fathoming hitting an entire map is a possibility.

 

That's even discarding the fact that the Corpus now have Nullifiers, the Infested have a plethora of ancients to mitigate AoE damage, and no doubt the Grineer will be receiving some type of unit as such in the future. OH AND THE Eximi to take your energy, let's not forget those. OH AND the fact that enemies have different resistances, and even Radial Javelin has its damage split into 3 categories, of which each is best against one faction. OH AND...blah blah the list goes on.

 

Honestly, Radial Javelin does nothing to hurt this game, not one bit. It is the players choices how to use their tools, and just because you disagree with it does not mean it is wrong. The tools are given to us, and we decide for ourselves how we use them. The ability does not hurt this game, nor is it in any ludicrous statement have a candle to even "killing" it, as the OP weirdly surmises. If you don't want to use the ability, then don't bloody use it. HOWEVER, don't go trying to nerf it for the rest of us simply because it's a pretty cool ability and you don't like that it can perform.

[(XBOX)Lorewalker1022]

And what is wrong with it becoming the best build for farming? Other than the fact that you PERSONALLY dont like it lol?

[RealPandemonium]

They could have upped the damage and increased the damage potential based on positioning while introducing the cc mechanic when an enemy was pushed into terrain by the javelins.  This would have created players' choices of cc vs optimal damage and would have made positioning matter in a fun way.  

 

Now it's just "attack everything on the map," and the damage is still low.  Given the abundance of energy restores (nevermind loltrinity) there's no reason not to wipe out everything in a mission with 4spam.  Radial nukes are cancer for gameplay and coincidentally Excalibur has come to become the posterchild of 4spam (poor Saryn never really had a spotlight) in addition to being the posterchild for Warframe.

[AlphaHorseman]

They could have upped the damage and increased the damage potential based on positioning while introducing the cc mechanic when an enemy was pushed into terrain by the javelins.  This would have created players' choices of cc vs optimal damage and would have made positioning matter in a fun way.  

 

Now it's just "attack everything on the map," and the damage is still low.  Given the abundance of energy restores (nevermind loltrinity) there's no reason not to wipe out everything in a mission with 4spam.  Radial nukes are cancer for gameplay and coincidentally Excalibur has come to become the posterchild of 4spam (poor Saryn never really had a spotlight) in addition to being the posterchild for Warframe.

Or instead of forcing players to choose between having an ability with scale ability vs. damage output, they've gone the better route and given both to the players. Honestly, you're complaining because the skill is good, which makes absolutely no sense. It's in need of tune ups, some added CC because those two seconds don't really help out when you're soloing or the enemies survive your maxed damage split among the 3 damage types.

 

A player chooses how they play, if they use one power repeatedly, let them do it. No one should tell them they're playing the game wrong because this is exactly what it is, a game. A game for them to enjoy when they play it. Oh god, stop with that ludicrous statement, "Radial nukes are a cancer for gameplay." It is a folly statement. In your own personal opinion, it maybe (confusingly to the rest of us) so, but that isn't a fact in any sense of the word. If you don't like the ability, don't use it, plain and simple. The rest of us, however, will happily enjoy the tools we have at our disposal in the mean time. Saryn's damage output far exceeds Radial Javelins, we've already debunked that mathematically fraud statement.

Edited February 9, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[RealPandemonium]

It could have been good in the incarnation I suggested.  Now it's mindless to use.  If you can kill all the enemies on the map before they become relevant you aren't really interacting with them at all.  Gameplay essentially doesn't exist.  I understand fun is subjective but making the game non-interactive gets old fast, regardless of how much fun it might be.  People aren't playing a game anymore; they're watching a movie and getting prizes for it.  

 

As for "don't do it," I don't do it.  Pretty much everyone else does, though, which forces me to play solo or only play with selected players if I don't want to have to deal with 4spam.  That also messes things up because DE will inevitably balance the game around the possibility of 4spam, which will end up in the game being about 4spam with the option to pretend to do something else just for funsies (we're already part of the way there!)  The abundance of 4spam will also ensure that guns have to be overpowered in single or small group DPS or else they will be considered mastery fodder.  This all further increases the gap between long time players and new players and invalidates most of the content of the game balance-wise.

[AlphaHorseman]

It could have been good in the incarnation I suggested.  Now it's mindless to use.  If you can kill all the enemies on the map before they become relevant you aren't really interacting with them at all.  Gameplay essentially doesn't exist.  I understand fun is subjective but making the game non-interactive gets old fast, regardless of how much fun it might be.  People aren't playing a game anymore; they're watching a movie and getting prizes for it.  

 

As for "don't do it," I don't do it.  Pretty much everyone else does, though, which forces me to play solo or only play with selected players if I don't want to have to deal with 4spam.  That also messes things up because DE will inevitably balance the game around the possibility of 4spam, which will end up in the game being about 4spam with the option to pretend to do something else just for funsies (we're already part of the way there!)  The abundance of 4spam will also ensure that guns have to be overpowered in single or small group DPS or else they will be considered mastery fodder.  This all further increases the gap between long time players and new players and invalidates most of the content of the game balance-wise.

It also gimps players severely, in the type you've suggested. Not to mention pigeonholes them into choosing between CC and damage, which isn't how an ult that needs scale ability should be. Again, you're disregarding the fact that the only maps where hitting an entire map is possible is Defense and Interception. DE is already changing maps and expanding them, Viver was the first one to get the treatment after Vivergate. People are playing the game, you're just disregarding their play style as not a play style, and that's where you're wrong.

 

Oh c'mon, its easy as Vay Hek to play without finding a 4spam Excalibur, don't exaggerate the numbers. You're telling us that every game you've joined with an Excal turned into a farm fest when it's not even possible to nuke the map like that outside of (a few) Defense and Interception maps? I find that extremely hard to believe. Literally everyone can jump into a pub and none of us know what we're gonna get. That's the nature of Pubs. But it's pretty folly to state that everyone does it when there isn't a map outside of (a few) Defense and Interceptions where that is even possible.

 

Stop with the foolish talk about the game becoming one thing or another with powers involved, because that's reaching for the stars right there. There is no plausible evidence to suggest so, and all you're throwing out there is an extreme view of how things happen. DE doesn't balance the game around 1 level of abilities, saying that isn't going to change their mind. Guns are fine. You want me to go on another rant about bows and Boltor Prime again? I'll be SO HAPPY to slap that ludicrous point silly on how guns are weak again. I would love to rant on for paragraphs and pages against anyone who says that guns are weak. If you want that, please keep going because I'll be happy to debunk every folly point that says otherwise.

 

The point of progression is differentiating between long time players and new players, that's literally the point of every game every that has progression in it. It does not invalidate most content because the content within the game is balanced towards different levels of players as they progress through the star chart.

[(PSN)AwkwardMonkers]

Tower 4 Defense Pics

No damage scaling. Enjoy!

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2u5yh4p&s=8#.VNk30_nF98F

Wave 10 1469

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2j0jpmt&s=8#.VNk4nvnF98E

Wave 17 1469,1562

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=296onq1&s=8#.VNk4P_nF98E

Wave 25 1469, 1562

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=mi1do7&s=8#.VNk49PnF98E

Wave 30 1562

[AlphaHorseman]

Tower 4 Defense Pics

No damage scaling. Enjoy!

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2u5yh4p&s=8#.VNk30_nF98F

Wave 10 1469

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2j0jpmt&s=8#.VNk4nvnF98E

Wave 17 1469,1562

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=296onq1&s=8#.VNk4P_nF98E

Wave 25 1469, 1562

 

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=mi1do7&s=8#.VNk49PnF98E

Wave 30 1562

Uh Ok, what is that supposed to prove? Most of your pictures are flashes of light with a few numbers popping up.

 

Not to mention you've not stated the group composition. The Aura's you've brought to the match. Oh and is that a Nova MP blast I see going off? Oh look at that, you've got damage magnification from a Nova, so no, it still doesn't merit that Radial Javelin is an overpowered ability. Again, damage magnifiers aren't a means to saying the ability is OP, neither that those damage magnifiers are bad, it simply shows that synergy works to overcome obstacles.