The Problem With Panthera And Akjagara.

[geninrising]

In recent Tenno Reinforcements we have had several weapons that pose a problem. Both the Panthera and the AKJagara are fairly difficult to build, each require quite a bit to be done in order to even obtain them, and finally once obtained we find them severely lacking in overall worth and usefulness.

 

Below I will be showing the various requirements for both and their various statistics in the hope that you people at DE realize the error of these weapons implementation and look long and hard at rectifying this mistake.

 

In short what we are seeing here is a disturbing trend of more work equates to less worth and this cannot continue.

 

Panthera requires:

20,000 credits for the BP and 20,000 credits to craft, 24 hrs to craft.

 

Miter-15,000 credits to craft. 30min-2hrs to farm the BPs. 24 hrs to craft.

 

Hikou-15,000 credits for the BP, 15,000 credits to craft.  24 hrs to craft.

 

5 orokin Cells

 

500 plastids

 

600 rubedo

 

4,000 salvage

 

So that's a minimum of 48 and 1/2 hours to craft, 85,000 credits, and various amounts of time to farm the resources alone in order to craft this ONE Weapon.

 

Now we get to the bad part.

Before we even get to the damage statistics lets talk about the ammo mechanic. How can you justify the ammo mechanic of the Panthera? It fires 1 round and costs you 5. There is no way that this can stay as it simply makes figuring out how many rounds you have left difficult in the middle of a hectic fire fight.

Please remove this mechanic.

 

 

Miter dmg   +    Hikou dmg    =    Panthera dmg

     250        +          25           =           100

How does this math work?

 

So at this point we have a large investment of both time and resources for an extremely lackluster weapon that requires two relatively good weapons to make.

 

 

Please buff this weapons damage up to 250 or 275 to ensure that our investments of Time, Resources, and effort are not wasted for Mastery Fodder.

 

AKJagara requires:

Dual Skana - 25,000 credits for the BP, 20,000 credits to craft. 

 

Lato (x2) - 20,000 credits. 

 

Bolto (x2) - 30,000 for the BPs (and 24 hours min to craft both), 40,000 credits to craft. 

 

AkBolto - 15,000 credits for the BP, 20,000 credits to craft. 

 

1,900 Polymer bundles 

 

850 Ferrite 

 

300 Alloy plate 

 

7 Orokin Cells 

 

4 Neurodes 

 

2 Morphics 

 

20,000 credits for the AkJagara BP and 20,000 credits to craft. 

 

210,000 credits total, 48hrs minimum to craft, various amounts of time to farm resources.

In fact this single weapon has the greatest amount of credits and resources in the entire game to craft barring Clan Tech.

 

Now we get to the bad part.

 

AKBolto dmg    +    Dual Skana  dmg   =   AKJagara dmg

       45              +             32                 =          60

Again how does this math work?

 

Please buff this weapon's damage up to 77 bare minimum. In fact it would be more fair given all the resources and effort that goes into obtaining it to put it all the way up to 100.

 

In the future please try to look on this experience as a lesson and ensure that the work is equal to the reward. Otherwise the only thing you will generate is embittered players that are extremely frustrated with each and every combination weapon you may implement.

 

edit: Title changed for clarity.

Edited February 8, 2015 by geninrising

[geninrising]

Seeking more feedback on this subject. Guys I feel like this is a most pressing matter and we need to address it as a community rather than letting this continue. Currently there are many weapons that require far less work to acquire than these two that are quite a bit stronger. Again I feel that the sum of the multiple parts should be &#! strong as their statistics combined or stronger to provide a commensurate reward for the work involved with acquiring them

[Paradoxbomb]

Still waiting on the Akjagara so I can't judge their performance yet, but the Panthera is definitely an underwhelming weapon considering the two weapon requirement, of which the Miter can be time consuming to get your hands on due the large amount of required pieces. Bump up the fire rate to at least 3.0, tone down the ammo consumption, and buff the damage a bit (assuming they buff the fire rate, 250 damage would be a bit overkill for a non-charge weapon). The secondary fire could also use a bit more range since the current 5m range means you'll be eating a ton of Heavy knockdowns and Fusion MOA lasers just to deal so-so damage.

[Flackenstien]

Yeah, I don't mind the amount of time and resources it takes to make these weapons, but.. if they're going to be that costly, they need to justify it.  

They need to be worth the time.

 

That said, they also don't always need to completely outclass the base weapon either, especially in the case of Miter -> Panthera.  

They should both be sidegrades to eachother, imo.

 

My suggestions:

 

● Both Miter and Panthera be given solid Critical stats.  

Miter could be comfortable with 20% on both charged and uncharged shots.

Panthera could be 20% on regular shots, and like 25% per second on the Alt Fire (or however Crits are calculated on beam weapons).

 

● Panthera's magazine size is halved, but each shot now only consumes 1 Ammo.  

Also, the Alt Fire could be made much more Ammo efficient.  

As such, Panthera's Ammo capacity would need to be lowered, probably by switching it to use Sniper Ammo, like the Miter.

 

● Make Panthera's Alt Fire be affected by Range Mods.

 

As for the Jagara:

● It should get enough damage to justify the huge cost, and heavy recoil.   

Right now, it has literally the same damage as the Vasto Prime, only with less Crits.  

 

The Jagara shoots two 30 damage rounds, totaling to 60.

How about we add 5 Puncture damage to each round, for a total of 70 damage?

 

● Also, to go with its description of being bladed, how about it gains more Status chance, to allow for more frequent Slash Procs?  

Assuming that the weapon's current Status chance is actually 10%x2, seeing as it seems to shoot two rounds, how about we double the chance to 20%x2?

 

● Its Crits could be increased too, but, in turn, Vasto Prime's Crit Chance would probably need a small increase.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Flackenstien

[Vargras]

I'm fine with the AkJagara -- it can actually perform well, despite its heavy resource cost.

 

The Panthera, however, still needs some love, given that it's actually a downgrade from one of the weapons used to make it (Miter).

[CHAIT0]

buping this thread, these tow weapons keep getting forgotten by the community.  these are cool ideas that need attention for them to be usable and fair to the players investment. I dont want another supra in my arsenal.

[Janzer]

I'd like something for my troubles indeed. How about a new little fun thing like a secondary attack instead of zoom does a quick slash that is 100% bleed proc given the skanas attached? Don't just make it look cool, give us something for going through the trouble of building all the stuff!

 

That being, their performance is fine, but they don't offer anything more than just that.....fine performance. It wouldn't be an issue if they were a normal build type.

 

I'm pretty sure DE is just testing the limits of what we may find acceptable. 6 weapons to build something with just "fine" performance isn't acceptable.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Janzer

[Nusquam_Ubiquitous]

I have to agree, the math jsut does not add up. They need to be worth using, especially if they consume good weapons to begin with.

 

Also whats the point fo bladed-guns if you can't use them? The Redeemer has a ballistic attack, why not invert so they guns have a melee? Gun kata stances? Sign me up.

[Kruglov]

Giving these weapons high costs to produce isnt a problem.

 

It's that the weapons are not worth it.

 

Panthera isn't a great weapon.

Neither are the Jaguaras.

 

They are mediocre. OK at best.

 

And thus not worth it unless you're someone who wants Mastery for whatever reason.

[Herosupport]

what if the panthera fired the stars required to make it like a machine gun with say 50 damage and a 70-100 round clip and 600-700 ammo reserve. and its alt fire was the 250 damage miter disc with a whips reach.

 

now the AKJaguara would it be to much to have the blade on the bottom barrel on both or the blades on both barrels. 

now for all the resources that go into the weapon it should have some thing special going for it like 100% bleed proc with multipliers based on slash damage weakness. 

[81rd01]

Akjagara seems fine to me. Also, take into consideration that for a new player Dual Skana and Akbolto might be weapons they farm for early than have to choose between discarding in favor of better weapons or getting new better weapons. Here DE allows you to do both.

 

Personally didn't bother building Panthera after my friends' negative feedback.

[Nighttide77]

-Panthera comments-

 

 

Panthera is a futuristic chainsaw.  Although its secondary fire is the chainsaw part, that shouldn't deceive people.  I've already run a 40 minute solo T4S primarily using the Panthera as a chainsaw.  It doesn't need a buff.  Shooting razor disks is just a feature of the weapon to be used in certain circumstances, but the Panthera should not be used like a bow, boltor, or other projectile weapon.

 

Its secondary fire is already at a base 225 damage, too.

 

Individuals whom do not like chainsaws will not like the Panthera.  That doesn't make the Panthera bad.

 

-akjagara comments-

 

 

The Akjagara are dual pistols that function more like shotguns due to their innate multi-shot, high status chance, low accuracy, and high recoil.  As a result of some compromise, probably influenced by the fact that there is no accuracy mod for pistols, the Akjagara don't have any damage fall off.

 

They already deal tons of damage at base, and compared to the Aklex (70 base damage) and Akvasto (50 base damage), but still having a large magazine and decent reload speed (also being between the reload speeds of Aklex and Akvasto), the Akjagara seem to be at a pretty good place without some crazy power creep going on.

 

IMO, these do not need a buff, either.

 

--------------------

 

The only thing that is a problem that I kind of agree with is the required resources to make either one.  Having to farm the Miter, or even all the resources for the Akjagara is a bit harsh for weapons with unique handling.  However, as a result of the construction requirements, I would have to assume that these weapons are meant for veterans looking for a unique weapon with a different style of handling.  Personally, the only burden I had to making the weapons was just with the amount of time it takes to make the prerequisite weapons.  Sooo...this isn't something that was too big of an issue for me, either.

[RealPandemonium]

Panthera is a futuristic chainsaw.  Although its secondary fire is the chainsaw part, that shouldn't deceive people.  I've already run a 40 minute solo T4S primarily using the Panthera as a chainsaw.  It doesn't need a buff.  Shooting razor disks is just a feature of the weapon to be used in certain circumstances, but the Panthera should not be used like a bow, boltor, or other projectile weapon.

 

Its secondary fire is already at a base 225 damage, too.

 

Individuals whom do not like chainsaws will not like the Panthera.  That doesn't make the Panthera bad.

 

 

The Akjagara are dual pistols that function more like shotguns due to their innate multi-shot, high status chance, low accuracy, and high recoil.  As a result of some compromise, probably influenced by the fact that there is no accuracy mod for pistols, the Akjagara don't have any damage fall off.

 

They already deal tons of damage at base, and compared to the Aklex (70 base damage) and Akvasto (50 base damage), but still having a large magazine and decent reload speed (also being between the reload speeds of Aklex and Akvasto), the Akjagara seem to be at a pretty good place without some crazy power creep going on.

 

IMO, these do not need a buff, either.

 

--------------------

 

The only thing that is a problem that I kind of agree with is the required resources to make either one.  Having to farm the Miter, or even all the resources for the Akjagara is a bit harsh for weapons with unique handling.  However, as a result of the construction requirements, I would have to assume that these weapons are meant for veterans looking for a unique weapon with a different style of handling.  Personally, the only burden I had to making the weapons was just with the amount of time it takes to make the prerequisite weapons.  Sooo...this isn't something that was too big of an issue for me, either.

I mostly agree with this (though I haven't maxed my Panthera so I don't know if the chainsaw actually goes places yet) buti think the Panthera's primary fire should have something to set it apart from other options and make it worth using.  Might be nice if it fired in full auto and had good critical stats to reward headshots.  Adding a more efffective bounce that increases in damage for each additional enemy hit would also be cool.  

[CHAIT0]

On the panthera if you honestly feel like the gun should have tow fire modes and one shouldn't even be worth using you're so full of S#&$ you might have to go see the doctor immediately. The main fire option should be as good if not better than the seconary. How weapons of this kind have work in the past is primary is bread and butter and secondary is strong but situational. Look at all the weapons with a secondary fire feature. That after you see the doctor that is.

[Peliia]

I've tried Panthera, ranked it up, used up all the capacity and went on a T2 Exterminate. I primarily used the secondary fire for added amusement and a bit of extra damage. While not damnable, the DPS is easily surpassed by weapons with a fraction of cost and resources required. While I wouldn't change anything about the ammo requirements, RoF, range or any other stats, additional base damage feels sorely lacking. I cannot rely on this weapon even despite it's sharp sawing loop on secondary mode as T2 is as high as this weapon can go unpotatoed while I can use others in the same state in T3/4.

[zavienh5]

Ikr....AND LITERALLY EVERY OLD WEAPON AND NEW WEAPONS COMING OUT ARE ALL FREAKING SLASH BASED WEAPON??? SERIOUSLY, I'M NOT A INFESTED-LOVER

[RealPandemonium]

Ikr....AND LITERALLY EVERY OLD WEAPON AND NEW WEAPONS COMING OUT ARE ALL FREAKING SLASH BASED WEAPON??? SERIOUSLY, I'M NOT A INFESTED-LOVER

Slash is good against most things except Alloy.  With a high proc rate it's even good against Alloy.

[hijinks_the_turtle]

I just want Panthera not to consume ammo with it's secondary fire and have more damage overall.  How can a reciprocating blade saw consume ammo?  Not to mention the primary fire consumes 5 ammo per shot.

Edited March 9, 2015 by hijinks_the_turtle