De Buff The Daggers Please.

[Ragingkitty]

I know this has been addressed so many times in warframe, and I think its time DE has done something about it. they buff every other weapon but the daggers. I think its time they do that.

 

dagger improvements I think should happen, and are justified tools of the assassins.

 

-1.0 attack speed or more.

 

-critical chance and critical damage higher, or some type of viable crit. build will be nice.

 

I used to play with dual daggers (fang only) so I don't know a good start with them at all. so I would let you guys suggest that. but I think its time daggers got buffed since like daggers is in the ninja arsenal of weaponry, and were used a lot instead of big bulky samurai weapons like hammers, and huge &#! swords. I feel more like a samurai/ gunslinger than a ninja. but anyway please buff to daggers. they really need it. so please people make this a hot topic for DE to consider. and it wouldn't take them a long time to buff the daggers since there aren't a lot in game.

 

please support buff on daggers.

[.Czern]

I it wouldn't take them a long time to buff *insert anything here*

Definitely not xD

 

I support crit increase, it would give them a nice niche imo.

[Zieghash]

Id think speed and crit would be good buffs for them, they are small light and get into armour. Sounds assassin to me.

[shut]

Also important:

 

- Bumping into enemies does not wipe the stealth multiplier for daggers and dual daggers.

- Can perform consecutive stealth strikes.

 

 

It's ridiculous how battleaxes and rocket hammers are currently more viable for stealth than daggers.

Edited February 9, 2015 by SortaRandom

[TestDummy]

The Karyst is very strong at the moment. Don't know about the other daggers.

 

Purely based in the Karyst, it does not need a buff. But daggers in general don't feel as daggers at all. So instead of asking for a buff, make a suggestion what to buff and how.

 

For example:

Currently the daggers feel like blade, they could use some more speed, status chance, crit chance and crit damage. These changes can be balanced by reducing the base damage.

 

30% crit chance (48% with true steel)

4x crit damage (7.6x with organ shatter)

5% status chance

Change the final hit to always apply status.

Allow daggers to only hit 1 target.

Reduce damage by a factor 2. (the new crit damage + berserker will end up buffing it)

(Edit: ratio from 4 to 2, I forget you need 2 more mod slots for crit mods)
 

This would not make the dagger stronger per hit. But it allows for a berserker build, making them a lot faster. 

The idea is to make a high risk high, reward weapon. With a different mechanic than other melee weapons.

Edited February 10, 2015 by TestDummy

[Arunafeltz]

Critical boost is nice, but I'd really like to see a MASSIVE Finisher damage increase for the daggers. Maneuverable, manipulable-sized bladed instruments for slipping and sticking into vulnerable spots where it hurts the most, I think it's fitting. 

[Racercowboy]

I think Melee weapons in general need to be redone. Even if all of these changes went through, the sheer damage and reach of heavy weapons and the fact that berserker mod exists to make up for any slowness will still overshadow the daggers. The problem is that certain weapon types do everything better than any other type even when specialized, in this case heavy weapons.

 

There's nothing wrong with weapons that are very adaptable, but they should not overshadow everything.

[Ragingkitty]

I don't know what your talking about the karyst being strong. it falls off way to fast in higher tier survival missions. and on big problem with daggers is they kinda don't do enough damage to begin with so nerfing their damage, is dumb. and making them only able to hit one target also dumb. like the whole entire point you just posted just makes no sense. your trying to re-work the whole dagger and dual dagger. and this post is pointed twards test dummy. the damage for the daggers is fine where they are at.

 

what they need is a crit build or a status build. then you can carry them into higher tier, your "high risk, high reward" is still making them not put out enough damage. and still being underminded by other top tier melee. they really don't need a crazy buff your talking about. your asking DE to rework the whole entire way the daggers operate which with how busy they are they won't have time for. it's why you ask for something small, AKA crit build or a status build.

 

I know you have good intentions, but reducing damage on the daggers, and just giving them a berserker build doesn't mean they will over come anything. in the end they don't have reach like other weapons do. and no nearly enough the hit power. and most of the time you are just doing single targeting. and I was playing around with my dagger last night along with the prime ones. it doesn't even need the berserker build on them because of how fast the stances make you except for the karyst where the long spinning combo it does needs a speed buff in that area.

 

but regards to nerfing damage on them it is one thing they don't need. and they need a higher crit rate. they are lethal precision weapons, not made to just sling around like a axe. your supposed to deal killing precise stabs, not total out right berserker destruction.

 

and yes the karyst does fall off fast. I have a fully maxed out karyst 4 forma on it. and as much dps I can give it. and it still lacks hit power with lvl28 mobs. so your nerf you talk about would hurt them bad. that's the last thing they need is a damage nerf. its the reason we are talking about a buff.

 

like I stated, crit rate and crit damage increase.  is mainly all they need. because if you nerf the damage and you have to stay on a target for so long beating the crap out of him because of that damage nerf, with that ok crit rate, your gonna get surrounded and wrecked. because not everyone plays a tanky frame. a lot of people play caster frames for high kill counts. and if a caster has to sit there and fight a target one on one. then they pretty much should just throw dagger/daggers away, because it wouldn't help them. if you were gearing daggers specificly for valkyr play only then you made the right suggestion speaking as she has 600 armor and you can stack another 620 on her with steel fiber and she will just absorb damage.

 

and suggesting what to buff is basically telling them what to buff. thought you should know.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Ragingkitty

[Janzer]

and yes the karyst does fall off fast. I have a fully maxed out karyst 4 forma on it. and as much dps I can give it. and it still lacks hit power with lvl28 mobs. so your nerf you talk about would hurt them bad. that's the last thing they need is a damage nerf. its the reason we are talking about a buff.

 

Daggers you say. I'm here!

 

Your 4 forma Karyst, is losing damage at level 28 mobs? My Dark Dagger can destroy the Stalker in a few swipes. How is your Karyst build may I ask?

 

Dark Dagger vs Stalker

 

 

Dark Dagger & Volt melee build

 

 

Dark Dagger with Mesa melee fighting in T4S solo against Stalker and Corrupted Vor

 

 

 

All of this is possible because of Pointed Wind. After Geoff or someone fixed Pointed Wind, we now have a viable way to use Daggers, because of the striking speed and animations.

 

Do not get me wrong. Daggers need some balance in regards to other weapons, but melee in general needs more attention. They should be fast and agile, high critical strike weapons that are high risk high reward.

 

Or, they should be lightning fast weapons that have high status, allowing you to stab an enemy multiple times and then run away, leaving the enemy to bleed proc out or toxin die.

 

Daggers should be more like assassin weapons, that would be nice. Right now, they're more like shredding machines.

 

I'm still waiting for the custom dual dagger set up Digital Extremes!

[elele]

Sheev can kill lvl 100 Exminus Ancients with ease, even without channeling. 

 

If you guys don't know already -- Pointed Wind's first combo (E, E, E, E) gives 400% dmg on the second strike, 150% on third, 200% on fourth. 

 

It's really really good. 

 

No buff needed. 

[tris1]

Daggers need speed increase makes no sense when you got massive weapons going faster and a buff to crit chance

[Ragingkitty]

not everyone uses the pointed dagger stance. so your argument is somewhat invalid.

[TestDummy]

...

like I stated, crit rate and crit damage increase.  is mainly all they need.

...

If dagger keep their original damage, get an increased crit chance of 30% and a crit damage of 3x. They will be dealing double the damage they do now. And the crit chance will allow for berserker, tripling its DPS. Making them deal 50% more dps than the dakra prime with crimson dervish.

What I was trying to say is that daggers are great weapons, they do everything a weapon should do. Their dps is perfect. If you wan't to increase one of the daggers stats, you have to decrease another stat.

I made an example hoping that people would start suggestion stuff. Now they only complain.

 

 

- A suggestion consist of a problem you try to solve. And explaining why this is a problem.

- What is your goal relative to something else in game?

- What do you want to change?

- Extra: what kind of complications you might see if this change would happen.

 

I try again with another example:

- A suggestion consist of a problem you try to solve. And explaining why this is a problem.

Daggers are great weapons, but the problem is that they are well balanced.

This is a problem because one handed swords should be well balanced and daggers should be good at one thing and bad at something else.

 

- What is your goal relative to something else in game?

The Dakra prime is the stronger weapon. Crimson dervish makes it slower than average. So a good place for the dagger would be at half the DPS of the Darka prime. This is exactly where it is now.

 

- What do you want to change?

Daggers are situation weapons, if you get the timing right they are strong, otherwise they are below average. This time I don't suggest luck based, but a skill based solution.

In the 4 strike combo dagger currently has keep the damage just at the base damage. Instead increase the critical chance and status chance to 100% at the 4th hit.

So 1x dmg -> 1x dmg -> 1x dmg -> 1x dmg+100%crit+100%status

Also change the base critical damage to 3x.

 

- what kind of complications you might see if this change would happen.

Without affecting the base damage, this might make the daggers slightly weaker than where they are now. But every 4th hit can give a berserker charge. So a slight damage buff might be needed. But I don't know the value of status chance.

Edited February 10, 2015 by TestDummy

[RobWasHere]

Ether daggers are awsum now tho. Unpotatoed deal 200 something slash at great speed and cost almost no stamina to swing.

[Doforcash]

actually they never buff Srythe weapon either...

[BerelHawdos]

The Karyst is very strong at the moment. 

No it's not.

[TestDummy]

No it's not.

Relative to what?

It can kill most enemies in a single hit.

You can't compare it with rifles. Because rifles are just short of destroying whole planets in a single shot.

[elele]

not everyone uses the pointed dagger stance. so your argument is somewhat invalid.

 

So you would argue that Dakra Prime also needs a buff because not everyone uses Crimson Dervish? Or Galatine needs a buff because not everyone uses Cleaving Whirlwind? Sounds legit. 

[shut]

So you would argue that Dakra Prime also needs a buff because not everyone uses Crimson Dervish? Or Galatine needs a buff because not everyone uses Cleaving Whirlwind? Sounds legit. 

 

I think that the argument was more that Pointed Wind is the only thing that's able to make the weapon viable in the first place. The weapon's quick melee and the other stance are still very much in need of a buff, and the most consistent way to do this would be to boost the weapon's stats (and/or, as I suggested above, giving it an exception to the "body contact = no stealth multiplier" rule that makes it a crappier stealth weapon than a rocket-propelled hammer). Even if it means that PW needs to be weakened a bit to balance it out (so that quick strikes and Homing Fang see a huge boost in viability, with PW's boost being minimal in comparison).

 

Even if daggers with PW are currently usable in later game (e.g. the "versus level 21 enemies with ~90% damage reduction" demonstration shown above), there are few situations in which you wouldn't be better off picking another weapon that's stronger, longer-ranged, and more efficient with channeling that doesn't sacrifice mobility (e.g. Dakra Prime with Iron Phoenix). Especially if you're not using Mesa or some other frame that can freely take hits in T4 without getting instagibbed.

The best daggers in the game should be overall sidegrades to the best longswords and the best battleaxes and such, but even with the relatively impressive DPS of Pointed Wind involved, I'm just not seeing that right now.

Edited February 10, 2015 by SortaRandom

[elele]

I think that the argument was more that Pointed Wind is the only thing that's able to make the weapon viable in the first place. 

 

Maybe Pointed Wind is the only thing that makes the Sheev "viable" against LEVEL 100 Infested, but the Sheev is perfectly "viable" without Pointed Wind against regular lvl30 enemies (preferably Infested because it's slash-based). 

 

 

Homing Fang

 

Homing Fang also does 200% dmg on the FIRST strike of all the combos. And the fourth strike of the easiest combo does a guaranteed slash proc, which is 245% dmg that ignores armor or shield. It's pretty good IMO. 

 

The best daggers in the game should be overall sidegrades to the best longswords and the best battleaxes and such, but even with the relatively impressive DPS of Pointed Wind involved, I'm just not seeing that right now.

 

Daggers cost 2 stamina per swing, meaning you can kill one enemy pretty much without losing any significant stamina. You'll be able to sprint/copter away and move onto the next enemy. Can't do this with a longsword or axe. 

 

The mobility of daggers is a big, big plus IMO. 

[geninrising]

This kind of debate would all be over in an instant if they simply changed how the melee combo multiplier scaled. Daggers in all forms would suddenly become massively more useful and powerful by leaps and bounds if they just made damage scale off of every 5 hits. 5 hits x1.5, 10 hits x2.0, 15 hits x2.5, 20 hits x3. Heck they could even make it scale faster than that, Melee 2.0 was supposed to ensure that melee was a viable alternative to gunplay and versus many different enemies it still falls extremely shy of that mark.

[BerelHawdos]

Relative to what?

It can kill most enemies in a single hit.

You can't compare it with rifles. Because rifles are just short of destroying whole planets in a single shot.

Long swords, Nikanas, Dual Melee, Axes, Great swords, Thrown Melee, Pole arms, Staffs, Claws, Gunblades, Whips, Tonfas, Sparring, Fists obviously with some exceptions like the Skana, but most of the weapons in these categories are better than Karyst.

Edited February 10, 2015 by BerelHawdos

[shut]

Maybe Pointed Wind is the only thing that makes the Sheev "viable" against LEVEL 100 Infested, but the Sheev is perfectly "viable" without Pointed Wind against regular lvl30 enemies (preferably Infested because it's slash-based). 

 

 

 

Homing Fang also does 200% dmg on the FIRST strike of all the combos. And the fourth strike of the easiest combo does a guaranteed slash proc, which is 245% dmg that ignores armor or shield. It's pretty good IMO. 

 

 

Daggers cost 2 stamina per swing, meaning you can kill one enemy pretty much without losing any significant stamina. You'll be able to sprint/copter away and move onto the next enemy. Can't do this with a longsword or axe. 

 

The mobility of daggers is a big, big plus IMO. 

 

200% of a dagger's base damage isn't a lot, and 245% damage over an extended period of time is even more unimpressive when you need to be close enough to receive point-blank damage in the first place. The Sheev hits decently hard with these, of course (and hits like a truck with Pointed Wind), but the speed on that weapon (and therefore its coptering ability) is downright horrid. I'd pick a Dakra Prime over that any day no matter what frame I was using, save for maybe Mesa or some other frame who can get all close and personal and unload full DPS potential with no worries.

But more important is the fact that Homing Fang simply sucks compared to Pointed Wind. You can get by with HF against level 30 enemies just fine, but that makes it "viable" in the same way that a Ballistica is viable. Sure, you can pull your weight with the right build. But why wouldn't you just go with one of the items that are straight-up better? Is "I enjoy the playstyle" a valid reason for suggesting that an underpowered item stay underpowered?

 

 

I wasn't aware of the 2 stamina thing, though; was this a recent change? I vaguely recall draining my stamina to zero endlessly when playing around with my Ceramic Dagger, even with a maxed Quick Rest.

(By the way, Longswords are perfectly fine regarding mobility. It might be a bit tough with Iron Phoenix without Quick Rest, but Crimson Dervish can copter after clearing crowds just fine.)

Edited February 11, 2015 by SortaRandom

[elele]

The Sheev hits decently hard with these, of course (and hits like a truck with Pointed Wind), but the speed on that weapon (and therefore its coptering ability) is downright horrid. I'd pick a Dakra Prime over that any day 

 

I made a video. Sheev and Dakra Prime have almost the same coptering ability: 

 

See 1:19 for Sheev copter, 3:22 for Dakra Prime copter. Both using Fury mod. 

 

 

For some reason when I use Dakra Prime to copter, I had a high chance of accidentally triggering air melee, which is annoying. You'll have to excuse me for that. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by elele

[shut]

I made a video. Sheev and Dakra Prime have almost the same coptering ability: 

 

See 1:19 for Sheev copter, 3:22 for Dakra Prime copter. Both using Fury mod. 

 

 

For some reason when I use Dakra Prime to copter, I had a high chance of accidentally triggering air melee, which is annoying. You'll have to excuse me for that.

That... is weird as hell. I'm definitely going to try that out later.

You can even tell in the video that the animation for the Sheev's slide attack is a lot more sluggish than the Dakra's, yet the copter distance is almost on par. I guess there's a copter-distance floor for coptering-capable weapons that I wasn't aware of. I always just experienced the sluggish animation and assumed that I wasn't going nearly as far as a standard 1.0-base weapon does.

Thanks for the video XD