New Players Get Good Stuff Way To Early.

[Archistopheles]

My point is, if you take Rhino prime and Boltor Prime through Venus, can you honestly tell me that it is challenging?

So let me channel my inner DE_Scott, then: So what you're saying is that Boltor Prime and Rhino should be nerfed. Power creep is ruining the game.

[DrBorris]

I see so progression=grind why because that's the way you did it. If some newb comes along and is able to get so-called better weapons then good for him/her but they still have to grind for resources, grind through missions. How does one learn the game by asking? That's a laugh you almost have to kiss there feet to get info or help. Leave us to grind is what makes the game a grind and having to deal with the Elite Club who don't really care about the newbs. It seems to me that you just want to keep the newbs into newbs. Progression is not just getting prime warframes and prime weapons. It's about teamwork and having respect to newbs. This is my last post on this site because I rather be a newb then snob.

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? Or did a crack open up in the middle where you fell into h3ll? 

 

I did not say Progression=Grind, I said Progression =/= Grind. The "=/=" sign often is used to represent "does not equal" because people (like me) are too lazy to do the symbol for that or to type the entire phrase. I would be fine with this simple misinterpretation, but the problem is that the words following the Progression =/= Grind all were promoting the idea of a grind-less Progression, thus I am led to believe that you either did not read anything beyond the first sentence, or are incapable or processing other people's thoughts. 

 

Where did I say anything about me wanting to make everyone else grind because I had to? I am advocating a new system of Progression, one that gives a player a true sense of attaining power. You know why I do not taxi new players to T4 survivals? Because I do not want to ruin the little progression there is. There is more to a game than killing stuff, and I am sorry that you can't see that. Syndicates, Lore, Story, Events, and a whole host of other things are clear signals that Warframe is meant to be something more than blind murder. However, I do help out new players as often as I can. If it is running star chart missions or helping with the mechanics of Warframe, I will be there to help. What I do not do is Progress for other players, they have to unlock stuff, I will just help with the process. 

 

Ummmmm, yeah, Progression is not just about getting Prime stuff, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID! I want a system of Progression that...

brings player power, enemy difficulty, story, and lore under one system.

See? We are not on different sides, we are just not seeing eye to eye (I think). And what is it with your newb fetish? Do you have no goals of achieving better? Are you fine being in the dark? Progression should be about growing in knowledge and power, not remaining idle. 

 

 

I am sorry sir, but you may be falling into the a hole category. You are accusing people who have spent more time in the forums trying to better the game for all players than you have been playing Warframe. 

 

Oh, and if you truly believe your convictions to be correct, defend them. Backing down when someone challenges you is cowardly, use civilized discussion to show others a new perspective rather than rage-quitting. 

[mejulio]

This is a P.S

 

I consider myself a newb because I haven't played this game long enough to think I wasn't a newb. But that doesn't mean that I haven't acquired a great deal of knowledge about this game. Just because someone is newb doesn't mean they don't know how to grinf

 

your preference is fine but you were just complaining about how newbs need awesome weapons just to grind. They have some. They don't need Boltor Prime, Rhino Prime, or Synoid Gammacor right out of the gate. Those are the top tier. You should have to earn those over time. I can still run T4 with my Soma, Twin Gremlins, and Amphis so don't act like they aren't good enough for newbs and the newbs need to have a Soma Prime to grind with.

I understand what you are saying but I think you missed the point. I not acting like anything I'm to old for that I am probably old enough to be your father if not grandfather. To say things like this weapon or that weapon is good enough for the newbs proves my point. Why should you care that the newbs can these weapons. You run T4 with these weapons but don't how much forma you had to use to that. I am impressed if that's what your trying to accomplish. But what's good for one person might not good for another. This you will learn as you go through life. It's just a game which I love to play. But would hate to see it go by the way everybody should progress one way only. That would make the game unbearable and no one would come in new. Then you could have the game all to yourself. There are other games out there you know it so just happens that I really love this

[Aercascade]

Here is a question for you: Are you bored of the game because you've got a Boltor Prime?

I'm certainly not, my sis bought the prime access with Rhino Prime. She still plays this game. If anything. The only thing that puts them off is the bad attitude from people who hate the fact they've bought Prime access when in a matter of fact it's a good thing that they liked the game so much they actually wanted to buy platinums to support it.

 

Don't punish the people supporting the game. I don't see a reason too.

[Aizeol]

So let me channel my inner DE_Scott, then: So what you're saying is that Boltor Prime and Rhino should be nerfed. Power creep is ruining the game.

 

No.  I did not, have not, and will not say that any weapon needs to be nerfed or buffed.  I'm not even saying that Boltor Prime should be at MR 15 or some other outrageous claim.

 

If you would like to have a discussion, please feel free to keep reading.  If you would like to take a single point out of context and extrapolate to ludicrous scenarios, then I have no time or patience.

 

 

My point is that in any game, you should always feel stronger the longer you play.  Giving the player access to the highest powered weapons from the beginning will not allow that.  I feel that there is something inherently wrong about the progression in Warframe.  This was always a problem, but it is becoming more an more apparent the more content is added.

 

Back when players had a choice of less than 30 weapons between three catagories (Prim, Sec, Melee), it was easy to overlook the fact that over half of them were terrible.  This has only gotten worse now.

 

 

There is no progression in this game, but the weapons are already "tiered."  Some weapons are rubbish after the first week of playing and leveling.  This would be fine, if it was intended.  Right now, I can't say that DE intended to make terrible weapons, but they seem unwilling to state "this weapon is not meant as endgame content" and the community is pressuring them for endgame content constantly.  This only hurts the game as a whole.

[jmforeman02]

This is a P.S

 

I consider myself a newb because I haven't played this game long enough to think I wasn't a newb. But that doesn't mean that I haven't acquired a great deal of knowledge about this game. Just because someone is newb doesn't mean they don't know how to grinf

 

I understand what you are saying but I think you missed the point. I not acting like anything I'm to old for that I am probably old enough to be your father if not grandfather. To say things like this weapon or that weapon is good enough for the newbs proves my point. Why should you care that the newbs can these weapons. You run T4 with these weapons but don't how much forma you had to use to that. I am impressed if that's what your trying to accomplish. But what's good for one person might not good for another. This you will learn as you go through life. It's just a game which I love to play. But would hate to see it go by the way everybody should progress one way only. That would make the game unbearable and no one would come in new. Then you could have the game all to yourself. There are other games out there you know it so just happens that I really love this

I seriously doubt your old enough to be my grandfather since I'm approaching middle-aged myself. I have learned plenty through my life. One of the things I've learned is that people like rewards. Rewards keep people interested. Not just for the sake of getting the reward, but also because people like to have a goal, a purpose. If people can get everything they want when they hit mastery 2 and are able to trade, then there's not much left to play for. This is the reason why every game system and almost every game now has "Achievements" or "Trophies" or something similar to function as goals, but those only half work because there is no reward at the end. This is why CoD added rewards to the Prestige function, because simple prestige wasn't enough. This is why a great many games offer some form of progression in strength. There have been countless psychological studies on this. Rewards work. Giving away everything in the beginning doesn't. Hell it's the foundation of capitalism. And whether or not you think that's the best system (because I don't want this to turn into a political/economic debate), it's apparent that it at least sort of works and seems to have outdone the competition.

 

Don't punish the people supporting the game. I don't see a reason too.

 

I don't want to punish people for supporting the game. I just want there to be a progression to the game. You can still buy whatever you want. I just think you should have to meet certain requirements for certain items first.

 

For those that didn't see the poll i posted. The VAST majority of people agree that some items should be locked behind higher mastery walls. This was a poll taken in these forums which, like the game, is mostly populated by people under Mastery 10. These are not the votes of only the veterans.  Most people agree that the game would be better if there was more progression. If the best items weren't available early. Here's the poll: http://strawpoll.me/3199887

Edited February 10, 2015 by jmforeman02

[mejulio]

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? Or did a crack open up in the middle where you fell into h3ll? 

 

I did not say Progression=Grind, I said Progression =/= Grind. The "=/=" sign often is used to represent "does not equal" because people (like me) are too lazy to do the symbol for that or to type the entire phrase. I would be fine with this simple misinterpretation, but the problem is that the words following the Progression =/= Grind all were promoting the idea of a grind-less Progression, thus I am led to believe that you either did not read anything beyond the first sentence, or are incapable or processing other people's thoughts. 

 

Where did I say anything about me wanting to make everyone else grind because I had to? I am advocating a new system of Progression, one that gives a player a true sense of attaining power. You know why I do not taxi new players to T4 survivals? Because I do not want to ruin the little progression there is. There is more to a game than killing stuff, and I am sorry that you can't see that. Syndicates, Lore, Story, Events, and a whole host of other things are clear signals that Warframe is meant to be something more than blind murder. However, I do help out new players as often as I can. If it is running star chart missions or helping with the mechanics of Warframe, I will be there to help. What I do not do is Progress for other players, they have to unlock stuff, I will just help with the process. 

 

Ummmmm, yeah, Progression is not just about getting Prime stuff, THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID! I want a system of Progression that...

See? We are not on different sides, we are just not seeing eye to eye (I think). And what is it with your newb fetish? Do you have no goals of achieving better? Are you fine being in the dark? Progression should be about growing in knowledge and power, not remaining idle. 

 

 

I am sorry sir, but you may be falling into the a hole category. You are accusing people who have spent more time in the forums trying to better the game for all players than you have been playing Warframe. 

 

Oh, and if you truly believe your convictions to be correct, defend them. Backing down when someone challenges you is cowardly, use civilized discussion to show others a new perspective rather than rage-quitting. 

I apologize for not recognizing that symbol. 

It's true that I am not a mind reader that process other peoples thoughts. And I am glad that you said that you help others.

But take offense of being called a coward because I have an opinion. I have never back out of fight or a challenge. I refer to newbs as those who haven't played the for long but it is you who mention a fetish perhaps we discuss on another forum. You cannot have about being a newb that is just insulting. I am not not in the dark again your assumption. Yes we can agree on some of you what said now that I know what that dumb symbol means but why didn't you just explain instead. Instead of throwing veiled accusations. I can and have apologized  but it kind lazy after typing so many words to this silly symbol. I glad that you help others the game needs more people that do that. oh and by the way I am M7 and still consider myself s newb because I have only two months of playing.

[Aercascade]

I seriously doubt your old enough to be my grandfather since I'm approaching middle-aged myself. I have learned plenty through my life. One of the things I've learned is that people like rewards. Rewards keep people interested. Not just for the sake of getting the reward, but also because people like to have a goal, a purpose. If people can get everything they want when they hit mastery 2 and are able to trade, then there's not much left to play for. This is the reason why every game system and almost every game now has "Achievements" or "Trophies" or something similar but those only half work, because there is no reward at the end. This is why CoD added rewards to the Prestige function, because simple prestige wasn't enough. There have been countless psychological studies on this. Rewards work. Giving away everything in the beginning doesn't. Hell it's the foundation of capitalism. And whether or not you think that's the best system (because I don't want this to turn into a political/economic debate), it's apparent that it at least sort of works and seems to have outdone the competition.

 

 

I don't want to punish people for supporting the game. I just want there to be a progression to the game. You can still buy whatever you want. I just think you should have to meet certain requirements for certain items first.

 

For those that didn't see the poll i posted. The VAST majority of people agree that some items should be locked behind higher mastery walls. This was a poll taken in these forums which, like the game, is mostly populated by people under Mastery 10. These are not the votes of only the veterans.  Most people agree that the game would be better if there was more progression. If the best items weren't available early. Here's the poll: http://strawpoll.me/3199887

 

The problem is. If they just stick to Rhino Prime, Boltor Prime they ain't going to be ranking up anyway. To level the game requires you to pick up another gun.

[jmforeman02]

The problem is. If they just stick to Rhino Prime, Boltor Prime they ain't going to be ranking up anyway. To level the game requires you to pick up another gun.

Yes it does. Why is this bad? You can always go back to your favorites anytime, but you can't really know what your favorite is until you try new things. No one is saying that you can't play with Rhino Prime and Boltor Prime. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by jmforeman02

[mejulio]

I seriously doubt your old enough to be my grandfather since I'm approaching middle-aged myself. I have learned plenty through my life. One of the things I've learned is that people like rewards. Rewards keep people interested. Not just for the sake of getting the reward, but also because people like to have a goal, a purpose. If people can get everything they want when they hit mastery 2 and are able to trade, then there's not much left to play for. This is the reason why every game system and almost every game now has "Achievements" or "Trophies" or something similar but those only half work, because there is no reward at the end. This is why CoD added rewards to the Prestige function, because simple prestige wasn't enough. There have been countless psychological studies on this. Rewards work. Giving away everything in the beginning doesn't.

 

 

I don't want to punish people for supporting the game. I just want there to be a progression to the game. You can still buy whatever you want. I just think you should have to meet certain requirements for certain items first.

 

For those that didn't see the poll i posted. The VAST majority of people agree that some items should be locked behind higher mastery walls. This was a poll taken in these forums which, like the game, is mostly populated by people under Mastery 10. These are not the votes of only the veterans.  Most people agree that the game would be better if there was more progression. If the best items weren't available early. Here's the poll: http://strawpoll.me/3199887

Who said I'm middle age and just approaching middle age then your a baby compared to me. I have two years before I qualify for SSI. Yes most people believe in progression but what kind of progression I bet they all don't agree on that. Because there are locks on weapons and missions. How many should we have? Rewards are not what keeps people in games maybe the very young one would feel good about them. It is learning about the richness of the game and felling part the community of players. Trade is not that great because I was buying a mod for 20p and another guy try to sell the same for 100p. I know this falls on the saying of buyer beware but I wonder if the 100p offer because he felt I was a newb? Its good that you bring up about the studies because I am a therapist by trade. When you mention studies it becomes your responsibility to to show me a link about all these studies. But I am aware of these studies but you can always find studies that dispute that. The way to keep people is to empower them so they can play the game. When I have a client my goal is empower them not by giving them rewards but concentrating on there strengths. And to repeat there certain requirements to using weapons. Please name more than10 weapons that a newb shouldn't and do.

[Aercascade]

Yes it does. Why is this bad? You can always go back to your favorites anytime, but you can't really know what your favorite is until you try new things. No one is saying that you can't play with Rhino Prime and Boltor Prime. 

 

No I'm actually convinced for once. The problem is too many players are using Boltor Prime and Rhino Prime and because of this they aren't actually ranking up because they haven't been using anything else.

 

Only thing I don't want is some salty players (Nobody here) who don't like things that new players have because they paid for them with money. I've seen people like that.

[jmforeman02]

Who said I'm middle age and just approaching middle age then your a baby compared to me. I have two years before I qualify for SSI. Yes most people believe in progression but what kind of progression I bet they all don't agree on that. Because there are locks on weapons and missions. How many should we have? Rewards are not what keeps people in games maybe the very young one would feel good about them. It is learning about the richness of the game and felling part the community of players. Trade is not that great because I was buying a mod for 20p and another guy try to sell the same for 100p. I know this falls on the saying of buyer beware but I wonder if the 100p offer because he felt I was a newb? Its good that you bring up about the studies because I am a therapist by trade. When you mention studies it becomes your responsibility to to show me a link about all these studies. But I am aware of these studies but you can always find studies that dispute that. The way to keep people is to empower them so they can play the game. When I have a client my goal is empower them not by giving them rewards but concentrating on there strengths. And to repeat there certain requirements to using weapons. Please name more than10 weapons that a newb shouldn't and do.

Lol. I am a scientist by trade and understand that you expect me to cite a study when I talk about them, but in this case I think it falls under the common knowledge exception. Surely I don't need to talk about every reward and conditioning study since Pavlov's dogs, especially to a therapist. I also pointed out that this is understood by video game and console makers. There is a reason progression exists in many games and why there are achievements and trophies in almost all. Your complaints about the trade chat, though reasonable, are completely irrelevant to the discussion as is your patient experience. This is a video game not therapy. But if you want to use that as an example that's fine. Feeling empowered is the means not the end. Most patients go to therapy to try to achieve some sort of goal for themselves, eg. handle stress better, become less angry, be more happy, etc. Empowerment might be your technique for helping them achieve that goal and hopefully it works, but it is the potential to achieve their goal that keeps them coming back. It is that that makes them willing to heed your advice. It is even common practice for therapists to ask, "What is it that you hope to get out of this?" early on in the process. 

 

As for the "name more than 10 weapons" statement, I find that to be a completely arbitrary requirement. But as you wish: Synoid Gammacor, Vaykor Marelok, Telos Akbolto, Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, Orthos Prime, Brakk, Dragon Nikana, Scindo Prime, regular Marelok. There, that's 10 weapons I think a person should be have to be rank 6-10 depending to earn. Some of them do have requirements already. Others do not. I can also name some frames: Rhino Prime, Loki Prime, Nova Prime, Nyx Prime. These are the direct upgrade primes. I would also be ok with locking the other non-upgrade primes behind a wall. The reasoning for these varies a bit, but for the most part, I think they can be too powerful too soon, or I think the non-primed version should be enough to hold someone off for a while until they can get the primed version. Otherwise what's the point of the original versions. The prime bonuses are just that, a bonus. But the regular frames can do fine all the way into the end-game. Leaving them for later gives people something to work towards without depriving them of good weapons. There are still many great weapons and frames to choose from.

 

I also think that the void trader's wares should be locked behind a mastery 12 wall. Why? Because they are legendary mods and weapons and should therefore be hard to obtain. They are also completely unnecessary for end-game. They are a bonus to those that have earned them.

Edited February 10, 2015 by jmforeman02

[mejulio]

No.  I did not, have not, and will not say that any weapon needs to be nerfed or buffed.  I'm not even saying that Boltor Prime should be at MR 15 or some other outrageous claim.

 

If you would like to have a discussion, please feel free to keep reading.  If you would like to take a single point out of context and extrapolate to ludicrous scenarios, then I have no time or patience.

 

 

My point is that in any game, you should always feel stronger the longer you play.  Giving the player access to the highest powered weapons from the beginning will not allow that.  I feel that there is something inherently wrong about the progression in Warframe.  This was always a problem, but it is becoming more an more apparent the more content is added.

 

Back when players had a choice of less than 30 weapons between three catagories (Prim, Sec, Melee), it was easy to overlook the fact that over half of them were terrible.  This has only gotten worse now.

 

 

There is no progression in this game, but the weapons are already "tiered."  Some weapons are rubbish after the first week of playing and leveling.  This would be fine, if it was intended.  Right now, I can't say that DE intended to make terrible weapons, but they seem unwilling to state "this weapon is not meant as endgame content" and the community is pressuring them for endgame content constantly.  This only hurts the game as a whole.

I agree with all that you posted except for one and that is about access to highest weapons form the beginning. My experience is that I did not have access to these wonder weapons you speak or know what to do with them if I did. Your speaking about new players who don't how to mod, use forma and all the things needed to upgrade their weapons. They have to learn how to do that. I have a Rhino Prime but like to play my Excalibur I also play Frost he is not a prime but a lot of fun to play with. I have yet bring all the mods on Prime Rhino due to not enough credits and cores. Using the Trade system will let a beginner get common mods but if you try to get a prime mod be sure to at have at least one million credits. Even having great weapons it takes a lot to get to them upgraded because some mods are way out reach for them and me. So I don't try to buy a weapon that I can't afford and I am M7. I just want to have fun and I think that it's great to have discussions about the game. And don't worry, like someone posted before, the game is more then killing enemies. I am glad that you have put a lot of thought into this and you a have lot of valid points. But to a lot of  newb they just don't care about all this they want to have playing a game. Enough said.

[Archistopheles]

I apologize again. I was trying to tl;dr because I was short on time earlier.

My point is that in any game, you should always feel stronger the longer you play.

The problem with your opinion is that in this game, you can buy everything, so certain players won't always feel stronger. Primed Mods? Buy em. Max Serration? Buy it. Boltor Prime? Buy it. You can buy it all day 1, and not "progress" the whole time you play.

That's, sadly, where Mastery Rank comes into play. That's the last shred of nobility that us vets still have. Noob has Boltor Prime and all max mods at rank 2? Np, you're still rank 18.

I feel that there is something inherently wrong about the progression in Warframe.

I listed my outline above, but I think the reason you're having a problem is the cookie-cutter progression model that games like WoW and Diablo have used that set a standard for gamers, brainwashing them to the point where if it isn't a clone, then there is "something inherently wrong."

This was always a problem, but it is becoming more an more apparent the more content is added.

Right. I blame power creep and I hinted at that in the previous post.

There is no progression in this game, but the weapons are already "tiered." Some weapons are rubbish after the first week of playing and leveling. This would be fine, if it was intended. Right now, I can't say that DE intended to make terrible weapons, but they seem unwilling to state "this weapon is not meant as endgame content" and the community is pressuring them for endgame content constantly. This only hurts the game as a whole.

This goes back to what I will term "The Diablo Effect". The idea that if players aren't constantly getting stronger, then they are somehow not achieving anything. Also: Look how upset you got when I asked for Boltor Prime to be nerfed. You share the same opinion as many other people. We don't want our guns to get nerfed or constantly adjusted. That's why we haven't seen a major weapon nerf since the Damage 2.0 Acrid fiasco. People don't like getting a thing, and then having that thing lose value.

At the same time, players like you want "progression" even though it doesn't fit this game model, so DE releases weapons like Boltor Prime, and Synoid Gammacor that blow other weapons out of the water, which leads to exactly what you say there: "Some weapons are rubbish after the first week of playing and leveling".

You can't have power progression and balanced weapons. They could've had both, if they made mods and forma more meaningful, but even if they did, players could just as easily buy mods to progress through the game, get bored because they have the best stuff, and quit.

Tl;dr This game does not have "Progression", we both agree on that. Players who come here looking for "progression" get bored and leave. It has nothing to do with buying or using Boltor Prime.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Archistopheles

[elele]

a guy with 80h in the game and owning Boltor Prime and Dread through recruit and trade channel. And now? He is Mastery 2 and is asking what the game has to offer? 

 

He needs another 500 hrs before he can find all the essential mods and max them all.

 

If he wishes to buy everything with plat, he'll spend 500 plat to 1000 plat.

 

If someone has spent that much plat on this game (which is worth maybe $25), then him leaving the game is no loss for DE because he's already given DE enough money. 

 

So --> new player gets Boltor Prime --> new player spends either time or money --> new player is happy, DE is happy. What's the problem?

[mejulio]

Lol. I am a scientist by trade and understand that you expect me to cite a study when I talk about them, but in this case I think it falls under the common knowledge exception. Surely I don't need to talk about every reward and conditioning study since Pavlov's dogs, especially to a therapist. I also pointed out that this is understood by video game and console makers. There is a reason progression exists in many games and why there are achievements and trophies in almost all. Your complaints about the trade chat, though reasonable, are completely irrelevant to the discussion as is your patient experience. This is a video game not therapy. But if you want to use that as an example that's fine. Feeling empowered is the means not the end. Most patients go to therapy to try to achieve some sort of goal for themselves, eg. handle stress better, become less angry, be more happy, etc. Empowerment might be your technique for helping them achieve that goal and hopefully it works, but it is the potential to achieve their goal that keeps them coming back. It is that that makes them willing to heed your advice. It is even common practice for therapists to ask, "What is it that you hope to get out of this?" early on in the process. 

 

As for the "name more than 10 weapons" statement, I find that to be a completely arbitrary requirement. But as you wish: Synoid Gammacor, Vaykor Marelok, Telos Akbolto, Boltor Prime, Soma Prime, Orthos Prime, Brakk, Dragon Nikana, Scindo Prime, regular Marelok. There, that's 10 weapons I think a person should be have to be rank 6-10 depending to earn. Some of them do have requirements already. Others do not. I can also name some frames: Rhino Prime, Loki Prime, Nova Prime, Nyx Prime. These are the direct upgrade primes. I would also be ok with locking the other non-upgrade primes behind a wall. The reasoning for these varies a bit, but for the most part, I think they can be too powerful too soon, or I think the non-primed version should be enough to hold someone off for a while until they can get the primed version. Otherwise what's the point of the original versions. The prime bonuses are just that, a bonus. But the regular frames can do fine all the way into the end-game. Leaving them for later gives people something to work towards without depriving them of good weapons. There are still many great weapons and frames to choose from.

 

I also think that the void trader's wares should be locked behind a mastery 12 wall. Why? Because they are legendary mods and weapons and should therefore be hard to obtain. They are also completely unnecessary for end-game. They are a bonus to those that have earned them.

Yes I am not scientist but that still does not qualify you to speak about therapy. I also have some clients who are also scientist. What I learned is they humans after all. Now maybe a scientist would have to a different conclusion recognizing that this was right to the point off the subject which is new player get great stuff way to early. When your with dealing games of any kind you are dealing with people and all people respond to stimuli. So using this technique is not what keeps coming back. Most time the people that don't even have goals and there for many different reasons. I never said that goals weren't important in a game or therapy. And it's not the potential to achieve a goal it's because they are tired of suffering and asked for help.   This relate to topic at hand when you someone trying to make decisions of what is best for the newb and whats not you or anybody else but DE have that right. Do not confuse ones wanting to having fun with complete idiots that you can tell them "well you shouldn't get this or that because..." The facts they have them get over it, there is no sense in crying over spilled milk. And Dragon Nikana you have to be M8 in order to use so that cant count according to your M6 to M10 requirement and the Marelok and Soma Prime are overrated that's my opinion. And really they the Ortho Prime wonder how a beginner got that it just hard to believe.And getting a prime mod is already unreachable because of the tax. Keep trying young one you seem to be getting there.

[mejulio]

He needs another 500 hrs before he can find all the essential mods and max them all.

 

If he wishes to buy everything with plat, he'll spend 500 plat to 1000 plat.

 

If someone has spent that much plat on this game (which is worth maybe $25), then him leaving the game is no loss for DE because he's already given DE enough money. 

 

So --> new player gets Boltor Prime --> new player spends either time or money --> new player is happy, DE is happy. What's the problem?

That was well pointed by you thank you said in a few words what I been trying to point out. But they don't leave just because of that. This is a complex question and cannot be answered as only one solution. But thanks again for your words.

[DrBorris]

I apologize for not recognizing that symbol. 

It's true that I am not a mind reader that process other peoples thoughts. And I am glad that you said that you help others.

But take offense of being called a coward because I have an opinion. I have never back out of fight or a challenge. I refer to newbs as those who haven't played the for long but it is you who mention a fetish perhaps we discuss on another forum. You cannot have about being a newb that is just insulting. I am not not in the dark again your assumption. Yes we can agree on some of you what said now that I know what that dumb symbol means but why didn't you just explain instead. Instead of throwing veiled accusations. I can and have apologized  but it kind lazy after typing so many words to this silly symbol. I glad that you help others the game needs more people that do that. oh and by the way I am M7 and still consider myself s newb because I have only two months of playing.

Grumble...

 

I can fully understand you not knowing the "=/=" thing, but where i was annoyed is that the rest of my comment was explicitly stating that Progression should not be grind based. From my perspective, it seems like you read the first sentence and then decided to comment. And if you did read it all, you did not spend the necessary time to process the information presented. THAT is why I was annoyed.

 

From what you have said, you do not seem like a new player (or newb). There is no magical switch that takes you from a new player to a veteran. Your held concepts of the mechanics of Warframe seem that of an intermediate if not veteran, your lacking areas would just be in the grind based areas of Progression. Also, at MR 7, the doors of the game are wide open. You have passed through the new player gates and are exposed to the grindfest that is Warframe at the moment. Two months of playing is quite some time, just compare that to the time people put into other games and "complete" them.

 

Saying "Fetish" was in jest, I was referring to how you keep coming back to new players in your arguments. You refer to new players almost as a permanent state, as if a new player must remain a new player for a certain duration before moving up. This may just be misinterpretation, but you do say newb quite a few times in every comment. Progression should be a system that brings a player out of the "newb" stages as quickly as possible, teach newer players the ropes and not depend on others to just give them information. The "dark" thing, again, was how you keep self-classifying yourself as a newb even though you do not seem to be one. 

 

I typed all of those words after clarifying the symbol to clarify my points. Whenever I post something, I want to make sure that what I am saying is equivalent to what I wrote. You accidentally misinterpreted my first comment, thus I decided to word it differently and to clarify some points. 

 

I did not say it was cowardly to have an opinion, I said it was cowardly to just leave a conversation because you don't like what others are saying. I got the impression you were just rage-quitting from...

This is my last post on this site because I rather be a newb then snob.

 

(I am going to ignore the stuff between the lines)

I would like to know what you thought of this idea on how to rework Progression. It is very long winded, but I tried to balance everything, give a reason to progress, and give a foundation for further additions.

 

Side Note: Welcome to the Forums, it is nice to see a person who can actually make a response longer than ten words *glares at other posts*, and I am looking forward to see further input on later discussions by you. 

[Quizel]

 

1. The point I have been trying to make is that there are too many weapons that are ignored because a better weapon is available, and somehow no one has deemed this a problem.  I agree, why on earth should I even try to get the panthera if the boltor, or boltor prime. is just objectively better?

 

That is the problem.  We aren't using other weapons because we want to, and we will stick with weapons long after we are bored with the game, because nothing else is good.

 

 

2. Having a system that allows the developer to say "this is a middle-tier weapon and isn't meant for enemies past lvl 30" would actually benefit the game.  It would allow for weapons to be developed for lower "tiers" that have interesting designs or mechanics without everyone calling it "trash" because they can't survive 45+ min in T4 survival.  That's a good thing, I promise.

 

1. I still haven't grinded out a second miter to make the Panthera. Weapons like Panthera is a micro achievement for those that want to collect and experience everything WF has to offer. It's for players that like the game for what it is and has less to do with progression.

 

The point I was trying to make in the above statement is that I'm going to continue playing WF because I enjoy WF. I am not ignoring this inferior weapon. It's just there's so much other things I want to do first. If I get bored of the game before using this weapon, well, I would have got bored (on average) just as fast if I were required to use it (bored faster because it's lame or bored slower because it's not lame). So it's hard to justify that forcing a player to use crap they don't want to is healthy for the game.

 

2. Personally at times I wish weapons I enjoy using could be more viable during endless, but I also do realize the need for having different tiers of power. The Lato alone is the reason why I played WF more than 5 min and continue to play the game to this day.

 

TBH, what makes boltor Prime powerful are the basic mechanics of it... not the dps. Plenty of crit weapons on paper have vastly more potential on paper. Numbers wise BP isn't even all that amazing, but it's absolutely godly for the 1-40 level mobs and ease of use especially if the player doesn't know about armor and dmg 2.0 concepts.

 

your preference is fine but you were just complaining about how newbs need awesome weapons just to grind. They have some. They don't need Boltor Prime, Rhino Prime, or Synoid Gammacor right out of the gate. Those are the top tier. You should have to earn those over time. I can still run T4 with my Soma, Twin Gremlins, and Amphis so don't act like they aren't good enough for newbs and the newbs need to have a Soma Prime to grind with.

 

To reach a weapons max potential you also need to forma it many times, which can't be bought and can take quite a long time if one isn't knowledgeable about exp mechanics or good places to farm.

 

The weapon a lone with 7'ish polarities isn't maxed out until you have max mods. These can be purchased as well (for a hefty price) so the real problem that you have is the pay to win model or ppl acquiring lots of power within game using real life currency.   Ofcourse the elitest who enjoyed and played the game for countless hours to acquire power is going to be upset about this. I'm not because it's my belief these ppl donate enough so that the dev's can keep dev'ing and make a better game.  At one point or another it was decided that cosmetics alone weren't enough to keep WF going.  Not all free to play games can be like Path of Exile.

 

What I'm saying in the immediate above statements is that even if you have the weapon there's still a very large amount of grinding to do.

 

And side note... Soma has been a near top tier weapon for a while now. Perhaps you were suggesting getting rank 6-8 is too easy. How many hours does one have to invest before they have access to things? Majulio is rank 7 @ ~200hours which sounds about right for someone progressing through the game how it was meant to be. Sometimes long time vet players with max'ed out gear forget how long things take to rank up when ur gear only capable of clearing mercury exterminate missions. Granted, If they want to rank up faster they can be carried in endless missions which most likely isn't too "fun" contributing nothing to the mission sucess.  

 

So once again, how does mastery locking weapons behind a grind which players most likely would be carried through to get the ultimate weapons create a funner and healthier game?

 

edit: by saying players here I mean players that will do research on a game before actually experiencing much of it, being helped by friends that play the game, and/or willing to pay money for progress.

 

 

I agree with all that you posted except for one and that is about access to highest weapons form the beginning. My experience is that I did not have access to these wonder weapons you speak or know what to do with them if I did. Your speaking about new players who don't how to mod, use forma and all the things needed to upgrade their weapons. 

This is probably how most players experience the game. "Power" users that are willing to use their wallet to progress ask the question (or seek out the answer to), "What is the best weapon or what do I need to do to be the strongest" much sooner. Power users are also more likely to post on reddit and other digital social media forums than the average player which further compounds the thought of a need to change. It's kind of silly really. To ask how do I break the game difficulty, do it, and then complain later about it.

 

This just brought up another thought about the journey to endgame. Path of Exile (a game developed by GRINDING GEAR GAMES) really doesn't take that long to reach "end game" for knowledgeable players. A lot of the game is readily available and experienced within 10 hours or so. The remaining 10-15% of the game than can take countless hours to achieve. Comparing this back to WF, WF is already even more grindy than a game developed a dev team call Grinding Gear Games. To hook players they need to experience fun things and they'll naturally explore other options.  If the initial presentation isn't all that amazing, the player will move on.

 

Edited February 11, 2015 by Quizel

[elele]

That was well pointed by you thank you said in a few words what I been trying to point out. But they don't leave just because of that. This is a complex question and cannot be answered as only one solution. But thanks again for your words.

 

You're welcome! 

[jmforeman02]

Yes I am not scientist but that still does not qualify you to speak about therapy. I also have some clients who are also scientist. What I learned is they humans after all. Now maybe a scientist would have to a different conclusion recognizing that this was right to the point off the subject which is new player get great stuff way to early. When your with dealing games of any kind you are dealing with people and all people respond to stimuli. So using this technique is not what keeps coming back. Most time the people that don't even have goals and there for many different reasons. I never said that goals weren't important in a game or therapy. And it's not the potential to achieve a goal it's because they are tired of suffering and asked for help.   This relate to topic at hand when you someone trying to make decisions of what is best for the newb and whats not you or anybody else but DE have that right. Do not confuse ones wanting to having fun with complete idiots that you can tell them "well you shouldn't get this or that because..." The facts they have them get over it, there is no sense in crying over spilled milk. And Dragon Nikana you have to be M8 in order to use so that cant count according to your M6 to M10 requirement and the Marelok and Soma Prime are overrated that's my opinion. And really they the Ortho Prime wonder how a beginner got that it just hard to believe.And getting a prime mod is already unreachable because of the tax. Keep trying young one you seem to be getting there.

I think you're sundowning. You're sentence structure is getting worse. Since you're going to be patronizing about my relative youth, that's fairplay (not to mention a legitimate concern I have for you). You didn't ask for 10 weapons that didn't already have any requirements. You asked for 10 weapons a newb shouldn't have and I named 10. Changing the rules now is just a rather shameful ploy. Expecting there had to be 10 in order for someone to have a point was unreasonable itself but I delivered anyway. The point is that newbs shouldn't have them. The fact that DE agrees with me on some of them already doesn't negate that fact.

 

You said clients come to you because they are tired of suffering. I submit to you that their goal then is probably to stop suffering. They DO have a goal in coming to you whether they realize consciously or not.

 

We all know that only DE makes the rules. That's why we are here to influence their decisions. This is the feedback forum.

 

As for the trade tax being a hindrance. You can earn creds pretty quickly when it's your goal, especially if you have plat.

 

Oh and you can get the entire orthos prime set for about 50p. It's one of the easier primes to get actually.  http://wftrading.net/?p=771.

Edited February 11, 2015 by jmforeman02

[mejulio]

^ sorry this bothered me more than it should have

 

rank 0s can get rhino prime but they cannot get boltor prime because it is MR 2

 

just wanted to clear that up.....i know...huge difference...but it still matters to me and some others

 

regardless.....if players do have the money to pay for the platinum and other players are willing to sell....i have no issue with it.....whether or not they maximize the weapons potential is still up to the player and their abilities.....if they want to spend even more plat for the maximum mods to make boltor prime the best it can be....fine...so be it...there is nothing i can say to that....they put their money into it rather than waste their life away...it is all their choice in the end and you should not be telling them or us what to do as a gamer

 

if thats what they deem fun and they spent money for it....let them do as they please because it still supports DE in the end of it all

 

if you truly have a problem with this then it means you should just completely opt out of trading in general because trading in general causes this issue in the end

 

anyway....i would like to see more MR locked equipment though....but have it reasonably locked and balanced

This sounds sensible and I wouldn't be against more MR w

 

Grumble...

 

I can fully understand you not knowing the "=/=" thing, but where i was annoyed is that the rest of my comment was explicitly stating that Progression should not be grind based. From my perspective, it seems like you read the first sentence and then decided to comment. And if you did read it all, you did not spend the necessary time to process the information presented. THAT is why I was annoyed.

 

From what you have said, you do not seem like a new player (or newb). There is no magical switch that takes you from a new player to a veteran. Your held concepts of the mechanics of Warframe seem that of an intermediate if not veteran, your lacking areas would just be in the grind based areas of Progression. Also, at MR 7, the doors of the game are wide open. You have passed through the new player gates and are exposed to the grindfest that is Warframe at the moment. Two months of playing is quite some time, just compare that to the time people put into other games and "complete" them.

 

Saying "Fetish" was in jest, I was referring to how you keep coming back to new players in your arguments. You refer to new players almost as a permanent state, as if a new player must remain a new player for a certain duration before moving up. This may just be misinterpretation, but you do say newb quite a few times in every comment. Progression should be a system that brings a player out of the "newb" stages as quickly as possible, teach newer players the ropes and not depend on others to just give them information. The "dark" thing, again, was how you keep self-classifying yourself as a newb even though you do not seem to be one. 

 

I typed all of those words after clarifying the symbol to clarify my points. Whenever I post something, I want to make sure that what I am saying is equivalent to what I wrote. You accidentally misinterpreted my first comment, thus I decided to word it differently and to clarify some points. 

 

I did not say it was cowardly to have an opinion, I said it was cowardly to just leave a conversation because you don't like what others are saying. I got the impression you were just rage-quitting from...

 

 

(I am going to ignore the stuff between the lines)

I would like to know what you thought of this idea on how to rework Progression. It is very long winded, but I tried to balance everything, give a reason to progress, and give a foundation for further additions.

 

Side Note: Welcome to the Forums, it is nice to see a person who can actually make a response longer than ten words *glares at other posts*, and I am looking forward to see further input on later discussions by you. 

I stand corrected

 

I think you're sundowning. You're sentence structure is getting worse. Since you're going to be patronizing about my relative youth, that's fairplay (not to mention a legitimate concern I have for you). You didn't ask for 10 weapons that didn't already have any requirements. You asked for 10 weapons a newb shouldn't have and I named 10. Changing the rules now is just a rather shameful ploy. Expecting there had to be 10 in order for someone to have a point was unreasonable itself but I delivered anyway. The point is that newbs shouldn't have them. The fact that DE agrees with me on some of them already doesn't negate that fact.

 

You said clients come to you because they are tired of suffering. I submit to you that their goal then is probably to stop suffering. They DO have a goal in coming to you whether they realize consciously or not.

 

We all know that only DE makes the rules. That's why we are here to influence their decisions. This is the feedback forum.

 

As for the trade tax being a hindrance. You can earn creds pretty quickly when it's your goal, especially if you have plat.

My sentence structure was getting worse because of my typing. You bring a good point about the clients goals it doesn't change the how to help the client. It is not the goal that helps it is the empowering to deal with any goal that they need to reach and to end there suffering but only they can do that. I'm not a miracle worker. I glad that show concern for me and my advancing years, thank you. But many of those weapons a newb can't get.

To be inclusive of all the newbs most be considered to even think of stating that newbs get these weapons. This is not an easy solution as you present and is full of holes. Perhaps you should think a little more of solution that everybody would be happy with. lol

[jmforeman02]

To reach a weapons max potential you also need to forma it many times, which can't be bought and can take quite a long time if one isn't knowledgeable about exp mechanics or good places to farm.

 

The weapon a lone with 7'ish polarities isn't maxed out until you have max mods. These can be purchased as well (for a hefty price) so the real problem that you have is the pay to win model or ppl acquiring lots of power within game using real life currency.   Ofcourse the elitest who enjoyed and played the game for countless hours to acquire power is going to be upset about this. I'm not because it's my belief these ppl donate enough so that the dev's can keep dev'ing and make a better game.  At one point or another it was decided that cosmetics alone weren't enough to keep WF going.  Not all free to play games can be like Path of Exile.

 

What I'm saying in the immediate above statements is that even if you have the weapon there's still a very large amount of grinding to do.

 

And side note... Soma has been a near top tier weapon for a while now. Perhaps you were suggesting getting rank 6-8 is too easy. How many hours does one have to invest before they have access to things? Majulio is rank 7 @ ~200hours which sounds about right for someone progressing through the game how it was meant to be. Sometimes long time vet players with max'ed out gear forget how long things take to rank up when ur gear only capable of clearing mercury exterminate missions. Granted, If they want to rank up faster they can be carried in endless missions which most likely isn't too "fun" contributing nothing to the mission sucess.  

 

So once again, how does mastery locking weapons behind a grind which players most likely would be carried through to get the ultimate weapons create a funner and healthier game?

 

edit: by saying players here I mean players that will do research on a game before actually experiencing much of it, being helped by friends that play the game, and/or willing to pay money for progress.

 

 

This is probably how most players experience the game. "Power" users that are willing to use their wallet to progress ask the question (or seek out the answer to), "What is the best weapon or what do I need to do to be the strongest" much sooner. Power users are also more likely to post on reddit and other digital social media forums than the average player which further compounds the thought of a need to change. It's kind of silly really. To ask how do I break the game difficulty, do it, and then complain later about it.

I think you misunderstood my point about the Soma. I was saying that it was fine the way it was at mastery rank 6 and that it's end game capable. There is therefore no need to have the Soma Prime available as soon as it is. I was arguing with someone else who said that people need the best gear just to grind. I was arguing that Soma original recipe can take you to end-game and back so you don't need anything better than that to grind for gear, resources, etc.

 

As for the other stuff you already pointed out that you only need the gear and the mods. If you can buy both with plat at rank 2, where is the progression? I think more gear, the best gear, should be locked behind mastery walls. You can still buy it instead of grinding it, but you should have to meet the requirement first. For example I think Boltor Prime should be a mastery 8 or 9 item, and Soma Prime a mastery 10 item.

[jmforeman02]

This sounds sensible and I wouldn't be against more MR w

 

I stand corrected

 

My sentence structure was getting worse because of my typing. You bring a good point about the clients goals it doesn't change the how to help the client. It is not the goal that helps it is the empowering to deal with any goal that they need to reach and to end there suffering but only they can do that. I'm not a miracle worker. I glad that show concern for me and my advancing years, thank you. But many of those weapons a newb can't get.

To be inclusive of all the newbs most be considered to even think of stating that newbs get these weapons. This is not an easy solution as you present and is full of holes. Perhaps you should think a little more of solution that everybody would be happy with. lol

You just said that more mastery walls was sensible in response to one person and then argued with my post about the same thing!? That's all I'm arguing for, locking the best gear in the game behind progressing mastery walls so people can earn it as the continue to play and level instead of getting all the best stuff at rank 2 when they can trade which is usually day 3 or so.

 

I said the goal is what keeps them coming back. Nothing else. You are either deliberately not understanding the point or... I'm trying to not be rude. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by jmforeman02

[Yazeth]

If the new players wanna ruin their own fun, that's fine by me. :p