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DrBorris

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  1. DE hasn't implemented this type of DR since Lephantis (and Hemocyte by extension) if I recall correctly. Every modern source of "damage attenuation" has been based on your weapon's theoretical Damage Per Second. The game calculates a raw DPS based on theoretical stats then assigns a DR relative to the DPS. Demolishers use the formula DPS = (modded damage) x (modded fire rate) x (modded multishot) x (body part multiplier) That numbers is then put in the thing below. This setup, using a theoretical DPS to assign a relative DR, has been standard for quite awhile. It goes all the way back to Nox's introduction. The numbers and formulas on the other hand are inconsistent as heck. For example, you may have noticed that the DPS formula for demolishers doesn't take crits into account. This means that a critical hit will have its damage reduced to a lesser degree than an equal damage non-crit. Some DPS formulas do take critical hits into account, some have completely different DR formulas if it were a crit or not. The DR for sisters/liches isn't listed on the wiki but I find it highly unlikely that DE would have gone back to damage reduction based on damage per hit.
  2. The problem the OP is referring to is the relative increase in damage Chroma gives. Every time you add more damage the added damage has a lesser impact on the total damage. 2 is 100% more than 1. 3 is 50% more than 2. 4 is 33% more than 3 and so on. Going from 3 to 4 gave you the same additive bonus as 1 to 2 but it was less impactful to the overall total. I'm pretty sure you know about this, this is what the OP is on about. Examples because I have nothing better to do... Assuming a 333% power strength Chroma you get a 915% damage increase (I forget how big Chroma's number is sometimes). Before, with Serration and Chroma, you had 165% + 915% = 1080%. So, relative to your damage before you get a nice multiplicative increase of 345%. Now we have the Arcanes and Galv Aptitude/Savvy/Shot. The status ones are hard to quantify because the amount of status inflicting an enemy varies, I'll just go with 3 for this. 360% + 3*80% + 915% = 1515%. Now Vex Armor is giving a bonus 130% multiplicative damage boost. 130% is less than 345%, therefore nerf (by the OP's logic). Now you may say "more damage is more damage, Chroma still does what Chroma did". This is true, but Chroma doesn't live in a vacuum. Now comes Chroma's nemesis, Rhino, with his multiplicative damage boost. A 333% power strength builds gets his damage boost up to 167%. Before these Arcanes Chroma, despite his math being less powerful, had a big enough number to be the best way to make your number go up (outside Mirage shenanigans which are impractical for a variety of reasons). This is no longer the case, 167% > 130%. All Chroma had was his number, it was the only reason to use him. He could tank a bit too but Rhino can also do that better. If Chroma doesn't have his big number niche then he doesn't have a niche. No purpose, throw him out. Do I agree with this logic? Ehhhhhhh.... Chroma has been a steaming pile of garbage for awhile now, in my eyes this doesn't make him any worse than he was. But for some people Chroma having his niche was reason enough to make him good. Thus if that niche no longer exists Chroma is no longer good. Going from good to no good is a nerf. I'm pretty sure you know all this math, half the reason I wrote this out was because I hadn't done the math yet myself.
  3. Good. Maybe now people will stop using the excuse "But Chroma make number good" as an excuse for him being the worst designed frame in the game. Other Warframes may still not be as effective as Chroma but at least they have some character. Chroma needs a rework. Ground up, complete re-envisioning, no holds barred. The Galvanized Status mods (Aptitude, Savvy, and Shot) give a base damage boost.
  4. The speed of this stance feels way off from other stances. Ghoulsaw has an attack speed of 1 but it feels like a 0.8 weapon. This doesn't matter much now but if there are ever going to be more assault saws the base attack speed will have to always be above 1.0. For the sake of consistency it would make sense to speed up the stance and reduce the attack speed of Ghoulsaw (or just increase the stance speed and let this count as another buff to Ghoulsaw). The stats of Ghoulsaw are just... bad. If you put a "good" stance on Ghoulsaw (like Crushing Ruin or Rending Crane) it is still bad. If you want Ghoulsaw to be a good weapon, make Ghoulsaw a good weapon. The forward (Ghoul Rush) and neutral combos (Rictus' Wraith) are swapped. Once upon a time you said that the forward combo was for light crowd clearing where the neutral combo is for single target damage. Many stances follow this trend, basically every good stance among them. The multipliers were also an issue but the three things above are the what have had the greatest impact on Ghoulsaw being "not good".
  5. Rictus' Wraith (current forward combo) feels like a single target DPS attack, but requires you to walk forward past a target. Ghoul Rush (current neutral combo) has you do sweeping attacks, meaning you will hit everything around you but then be stuck in place. This... makes no sense. The forward combo of a stance should be the one with sweeping strikes because you are probably wanting to swipe through groups of enemies. The only time you would want to stop moving is if you run into a single tough enemy, where you would want to more directly apply damage to them. And if you do want AoE damage without moving, that is what the neutral block combo (Reciprocator) does. The neutral combo is entirely redundant as it stands. The staff stance Clashing Forrest has the smart version of this. The neutral combo (Resolute Flurry) has you twirl the weapon in front of you, the forward combo (Skyward Limb) is sweeping strikes. Ghoulsaw has other problems. The base attack speed of the Rictus' Wraith is horrible (the multipliers wouldn't be so bad if it didn't have the longest combo durations in the game) and the stats for Ghoulsaw are also just plain bad. This isn't about that, this is about the stance combos making sense and being consistent with the trends set by past stances.
  6. While I am all for some Railjack missions better utilizing the Railjack, I think putting too much focus on the Railjack in most missions is a bad idea. Railjack was supposed to be the glue that tied the game together, not another content island. The bread and butter of Warframe is on-foot missions, using Railjack as a tool to seamlessly connect segments of on-foot gameplay into an immersive experience is where I see the greatest potential in Railjack. Yes, this is basically just a taxi, but it is a taxi where you get to fly a big space ship and shoot down a bunch of enemies on the way. On the Devstream when Scott was asked "why did you change your Vision of Railjack to just be a Taxi" he basically said "why not both?" Just because DE implemented a game mode where Railjack combat was less important it doesn't mean that all other mission structures are going away. DE adding Disruption didn't mean that they were deleting all other game modes. Railjack shouldn't be confined to a single archetype of mission structure. There should be some missions where the Railjack plays a key role in the combat, but that shouldn't be most. There is a potential for every mission to be a Railjack mission, where we never see a loading screen. Railjack in my eyes should be a tool to deliver us to more core Warframe content, not the content itself. I don't think that having more on-foot combat is "bad pacing." If anything it is a better representation of what the future of Warframe could be. Railjack missions where the Railjack is the key are awesome and should be explored but they aren't, in my opinion, where Railjack's potential is.
  7. Second to last graph. The x axis is a variety of DPS, from 5,000 to 1,000,000. I don't know how else to describe this besides as a comparison between low and high end (and everything in-between) performers.
  8. Make the diminishing returns of Damage Attenuation use a single formula that ensures a higher DPS always, predictably, and consistently lead to deal a higher DPS.
  9. @ShortCat @FrostDragoon I stand by that I see this Banshee "problem" as a symptom of a more significant issue. Banshee isn't broken because she ignores DR, the DR is broken because it lets Banshee ignore it. While it is feasible for DE to patch up damage attenuation to account for Banshee without making Banshee useless I see that as just another band-aid on what is one of the most janky systems in Warframe. Make Damage Attenuation good, that should inherently fix not only current problems but also future-proof against ones to come.
  10. TL;DR: Make the diminishing returns of Damage Attenuation use a single formula that ensures a higher DPS always, predictably, and consistently leads to a higher actual DPS. I know most people don't care about math but the recent discussions around the DR of Liches is a perfect example of how math has substantial gameplay impacts. The math matters, if you want good gameplay you have to have good math. I’ll be splitting this into a couple sections, each getting deeper down the well. What is Damage Attenuation? Damage attenuation is that annoying damage reduction (DR) effect that is currently making bad weapons better than good weapons when fighting Liches/Sisters. From what I’ve gathered this is done using your weapons stats. The game calculates a DPS based on the current stats of your weapon, including buffs from Warframe abilities, then applies a DR based on that DPS. This sounds simple but my lord DE has done everything in their power to make it complicated. For example, Eidolons have four different calculations for their fancy DR. Which equation is used is based on if it is a critical hit or not and a ratio of DPS to fire rate. Another example is Deimos Saxum. These guys have six different DR values, each their own equation that scales with DPS, which one is used is also based on DPS. None of these equations take crits into account (so crits effectively ignore the DR) and the damage from status effects have their own special DR. Demolishers (the Disruption enemies) use a similar system to Deimos Saxum but they also get the benefit of having six equations for their status effect damage. There isn’t any information as to what formulas Liches and Sisters use but I would be surprised if it weren’t equally as convoluted as the above. If the above sounds like a load of cow poo then I am happy to say I 100% agree. Before we get to solutions I can see some saying “kill it with fire, remove all the fancy DR.” Before we get there I think it is important to go through why DE has put these things in place. Why is Damage Attenuation? At its most basic premise it is supposed to be a damage reduction scaling system that makes for a more consistent time to kill of an enemy across all levels of progression. It is supposed to make it so less geared players can do the same content as highly geared players where neither party has a 'bad' experience. With the absurd levels of power scaling it is basically impossible for DE to pick a static EHP value for an enemy that won't be trivialized by late-game players but decent for earlier players (star chart bosses), satisfying for late-game players but impossible for mid-game players (Eidolons), or more commonly is both trivialized by late game players and annoying for early to mid-game (Demolysts). The number go up is just too strong to make an enemy a threat without also making them absurd. The presence of damage attenuation isn't inherently bad. While it is effectively just a band-aid on a broken system it is better than nothing if you want to make bosses that feel like bosses. I personally wish it didn't exist but its presence is wanted by DE so we are stuck with it. The problem with DE's current implementation is can be simplified to a single key issue, it isn't consistent. The damage reduction uses calculations done at the arsenal-level that don't properly correlate to in-game performance. It isn't making enemies more resistant to our damage, it is making our weapons deal less damage based on their stats. In a perfect world the outcome of those things would be the same, problem is that Warframe isn't simple. A DPS calculation doesn't tell the whole picture. My approach was to first change the frame for reference from theoretical damage to actual damage. As enemies take damage the become more resistant to damage, your weapons are still pumping out the same amount of raw number. Then I used a smooth Damage Reduction formula to make the results of the DR feel predictable to the player. And finally the DR diminishes over time so this isn't just an enemy getting infinitely tanky until they die, the DR value eventually stops increasing as you shoot. Better Damage Attenuation Enemies gain Damage Reduction relative to health lost. This damage reduction is applied as a buff to an enemy, it affects all players equally. The damage reduction diminishes over time through having the amount of health lost only account for the past two seconds. Over the first two seconds of damaging an enemy their DR will increase relative to how much damage you are doing. If you stopped shooting the enemy for two seconds the DR would fully reset. In practice if you continually shoot an enemy the DR would eventually settle on a static value (if the damage you are dealing is consistent). The more damage you are dealing the higher this ‘homeostasis DR’ is. Because this is based on the amount of damage an enemy has taken it is “fair” to all incoming sources of damage and avenues of us buffing our own damage. If you hit a Sonar spot the enemy will take considerably more damage, thus it will have a higher DR. Self buffs, enemy debuffs, even abilities are all treated the same because the frame of reference is on the enemy. That’s a lot of words without me saying what it is. I’ve been avoiding this part because math is scary, but here it goes, behold… a better damage attenuation. [Actual Damage] is the final damage that you deal to the enemy. [SUM] is the amount of damage the enemy has taken in the past two seconds. [Damage] is the amount of damage you would have done after all other modifiers (abilities, crit, resistances, armor, etcetera) but before damage attenuation. That… looks kinda scary, I get it. I just complained about how damage attenuation is too complicated and then I show you this. Hear me out though, the way it works is fairly simple and is based on an existing DR formula, armor. How is Better Damage Attenuation Go ahead and skip this section if all you care about is the results. To explain how this works and my thought process I am going to break each part of the equation down piece by piece. Before that though, the core principles of how this DR works comes from armor so it is best to start there. I am going to explain things as if you know nothing about the math behind Warframe. I want to try and convince everyone that this formula works well so I have to assume a base knowledge of nothing. Apologies in advance if you are versed in the math of Warframe, I will mention a lot of things you already know. Armor is often a point of debate but the contention should really be pointed at armor scaling, not the formula that converts armor to damage reduction. What this formula does is linearly increase an enemy’s effective hit points. For every 300 armor an enemy gets an additional 1x multiplier of health. For example, an enemy with 100 health and zero armor has an EHP of 100 (1x). If it has 300 armor it has an EHP of 200 (2x). If it has 600 armor it has an EHP of 300 (3x). This same math applies to a Warframe’s armor if you wanted a better understanding of how useful it is to build armor. An important part of this is that the difference between 0 and 1 armor is the same as the difference between 1000 and 1001 armor. This is good ole’ faithful armor DR. Hopefully I explained what armor does well enough so explaining how it does it will make sense. The green blocks are the armor value and the orange block determines how strongly the armor turns into damage reduction. If you made the orange value 500 then you would need 500 armor to add a 1x multiplier to an enemy’s EHP. Increasing the value of the orange block decreases how potent the armor value is and vice versa. To find actual damage you deal to an armored enemy you use the following. The damage reduction from the armor formula first needs to be converted into damage taken. You don’t simply multiply DR by damage because then a higher DR would lead to a more damage… that’s not right. To convert damage reduction (the yellow block) into ‘damage taken’ all you do is subtract it from 1 (the purple block). Then multiply that by damage (blue block). Hopefully this weird color-coding thing I am doing will help. Now to show how this transfers over to the damage attenuation formula. Damage attenuation is a damage reduction so just like armor it needs to be converted into ‘damage taken’. Focusing on the yellow part…. And look… it is just the armor DR formula again (but a little bit bigger). The reason I chose to go with the armor formula as the core goes back to how it linearly increases an enemy’s EHP. You can add significant values of “armor” and the effect on combat won’t get out of control. I went with a significantly higher value in the orange block because this DR is meant to be reigning in the extreme high end of our damage. The “armor” value is composed of two parts, the total [SUM] of damage taken in the last two seconds and… another thing. The [SUM] is what drives most of this formula. This number gets bigger over time, increasing the “armor” value, which increases the DR. About that pink part… The first version I made of this did not have this section at all. The problem this created was that the first hit would be completely unaffected by this DR. If you used a sniper rifle it would ignore all of this fancy DR and one-shot enemies as if it did not existed. And if you didn’t manage to one-shot the enemy it would give you a substantial head start on killing the enemy. To fix this I tried having this part just be [Damage]. The result was an inverse situation where weapons that hit slow and hard were majorly gimped in the long run when compared to high fire rate weapons. I needed to meet in the middle somehow, the [Damage] value was a good start but it needed to be reduced as to make it not overbearing. So like any rational person I put an armor formula inside my armor formula. Yellow is another armor DR formula and the purple converts it into damage taken. This DR needs to balance reducing the impact of hard hitting, slow rate of fire items without gimping them in the long run. Using both [Damage] and [SUM] in this made for the best balance in testing. I tried everything from just [Damage] in the armor DR to squaring the formula to just having static values. This made for the best balance between shot term alpha damage and long term sustained damage when comparing hit rates. Not much more to say on this. The 100,000 and the two second window I have written this around isn’t the end-all-be-all of this formula. The two second window would likely be subject to change based on in game testing. The 100,000 is interesting because there is potential for it to differ depending on the enemy it is on. In general the higher this number the less impactful the damage attenuation is. On one end this could be scaled to be higher in end-game situations where it is expected that you are well geared. On the other end it could be reduced if the content takes place where most players weren’t progressed very far. This is an additional knob for DE to use to fine tune combat encounters. For example Jackal, being a new player boss, may use a value of 10,000. An Eidolon on the other hand may use a value of 500,000. The window time should probably be consistent across all enemies but there is also some potential there to change the number to fit the combat situation. A long shot idea would be to have this value scale with enemy level, something like [Enemy Level]*10,000. Higher level enemies would be less resistant to damage as it is expected that you will be better geared to go against them (keep in mind they also have exponentially increasing EHP as they level up). Theoretically it makes for the experience of fighting an enemy with damage attenuation even more consistent as you progress through the game. How this would work in practice is far too complicated to surmise with just spreadsheets, but it would be an interesting thing to try. Something like this is impossible to imagine with how damage attenuation currently works, that’s the benefit of making a single equation that scales off only a single variable. Hopefully that made sense… Now to get into lots of example numbers. Results of Better Damage Attenuation The first thing to show off is the “homeostasis DR” from earlier. This shows how the damage reduction increases and decreases over time. That pointed tip is the drop off after the initial two seconds. You can then see that it slightly overcorrects before increasing again and becoming stable at the end of the time period. That DR it becomes stable at is directly to DPS. A problem with the chart above is that it is using “perfect” DPS where every hit is of an equal damage value. This makes for pretty charts but it isn’t realistic, in practice our damage is far more inconsistent between crits, missing some shots, the occasional melee attack, etcetera. Both the lines above have an average DPS of 200,000 over eight seconds where they are both dealing damage ten times per second. The damage values of the blue line randomly range from 17 to 52,728. This looks like a massive win to me, even when the damage per hit varies wildly the formula makes for a consistent homeostasis DR relative to the average DPS. For the next few examples I’ll be using “perfect” DPS to make the trends as clear as possible, this is here to show that even under imperfect conditions everything holds up. This is showing a range of DPS between 5,000 and 1,000,000. Personally I’m not a big fan of using DR to show how this all works because DR only exists in numbers, what really matters is how much damage you are doing. This I think gives a far better picture as to what is going on. The grey line is how much damage you would be dealing if the attenuated DR did not exist. Orange line is your DPS after the fancy DR. Everything comes together here, you can see how at lower DPS that the impact of this DR is far lower. It also shows that no matter what a higher DPS will always be higher. If you want to do more damage the answer will ALWAYS be to do more damage. This also visualizes that while the reduction in damage is significant, there is still a noticeable advantage to attempting to go for more damage. The difference between 600,000 DPS and 1,000,000 DPS isn’t the 66% increase it originally was but it still is 36% more. There is a not-insignificant flaw in this formula that is the difference between low and high hit rate things. For the example I’ll have two cases, one that hits 40 times per second and another that hits 2.5 times per second. The Homeostasis DR is the DR after 8 seconds and the first hit DR is the DR applied to the first instance of damage. “Hits to Catch Up” is how many hits it takes for the 40 case to deal the damage dealt by the first hit of the 2.5 case. The higher the number the longer it takes for these two cases to become equal. This clearly shows that the formula isn’t perfect. At “reasonable” DPS levels everything works fairly well. After a million DPS things fall apart a bit. I don’t see too much of a problem with this, it holds up solid where it matters and even when it breaks it isn’t the end of the world. After the eight seconds the total damage done of all the above cases flips back to being basically even with a slight favor towards the high hit rate. Yes, high alpha damage things will ignore a portion of the DR, but the amount of min/maxing you have to do to reach those points makes me think that the people who go through that kinda deserve it. One more chart to emphasize that I don’t think this matters that much. This is showing the total amount of damage dealt to an enemy over four seconds. This is assuming a hit rate of 10 per second and an average DPS of 1,000,000. Randomized hit values range from 0.1 to 416,000. I randomized this a few dozen times and this is the worst discrepancy between the perfect and imperfect I could manage. The theoretical flaw with high single instance damage doesn’t extend into practical examples. That final chart is what really convinced me that this could work. Theoretical stuff is great and all but pretty equations have a tendency to break under randomization. It isn’t perfect, there is technically an imbalance, but no damage attenuation formula can be perfect. You would have to be able to see the future and retroactively change the DR with hindsight to actually be fair. DE doesn’t have a time machine to my knowledge so “perfect” is out of the question. In my opinion the formula I’ve rambled on about is as close as we can get to something that is fair. Should we Damage Attenuation? I’m putting this at the end because I don’t want my hot takes here to overshadow anything. Progression is important. We spend hundreds to thousands of hours making ourselves more powerful. Adding a mechanic that levels the playing field, effectively devaluing our time spent powering up, just plain suck. While I like this formula I cam up with more than any humans should reasonably like numbers, the last thing I think is good for the game is to slap it on everything. However… the more I think about the variety of places it has been used to more I side with DE. If the damage attenuation wasn’t an inconsistent load of horse poo it mostly makes sense. Demolishers: Disruption is just a regular game mode that everyone is supposed to be able to play. Unfortunately the mechanics of Disruption make for potentially a wildly different experience between well geared players and everyone else. Demolishers aren’t just an enemy, they’re a mechanical objective. Applying attenuated damage to Demolishers makes that experience more consistent, everyone has to spend a moment to burst down these targets and everyone is able to burst down these targets. This is exactly what damage attenuation is for. That said, this is just a basic mission type. Well geared players with nutty builds being able to one-shot Demolishers isn’t hurting much. It is an empowering experience to go from struggling with these guys to being able to wile them out the same you would a Lancer. I’m not convinced either way of these enemies should have damage attenuation. Nox: Yes, Nox currently have a light version of Damage Attenuation applied to their body. Generally, I would say adding damage attenuation to common spawn units is a massive mistake. Nox make me reconsider that. Using Damage Attenuation to encourage an enemy mechanic is a solid way to avoid making all other means of killing an enemy outside their mechanic impossible. Especially in the current predicament were having where single target has no place in the face of AoE, damage attenuation has a ton of potential to create a more common niche for single target things. More enemies like Nox that have damage attenuation when you aren’t engaging with their mechanic has a tone of potential to spice up gameplay. Deimos Saxum (the two-legged dangling ball sack things): Deimos Saxum have a mechanic, you pop their two leg things then you are able to hard DPS their body. As it stands damage attenuation applies to Saxum even after their mechanic is dealt with which is… bad. On top of full body damage attenuation Saxum already have a flat 80% DR on their body before their mechanic is dealt with. Replace that 80% DR with damage attenuation then having breaking both leg things remove damage attenuation from the full body of Saxum. Deimos Jugulus (the towering phallic mortar things): If these guys were not spawned constantly and were treated as a mini boss on the Cambion Drift I may be okay with this. As it stands though these guys are basically a common spawn unit with no mechanic to get past damage attenuation. Jugulus should just be tanks of EHP, able to be one-shot with ease by well geared players. Alternately their spawn rate could be substantially decreased, and threat level could be substantially increased. Or they could have a basic mechanic like Nox where only their body uses damage attenuation. Deimos Therid (Infested Ancient 2.0): Why… these are essentially a basic Infested unit, they aren’t special mechanically and don’t add anything unique to the battlefield besides a change of scenery. They shouldn't have any damage attenuation unless there are significantly reworked to do something besides spit goo at you. Eidolons: Get rid of it. Eidolons are a gear-check boss so having them gimp your gear just doesn’t make sense. It especially doesn’t make sense that this DR is applied to our Amps. Lephantis: To my knowledge this is patient zero for damage attenuation. How it currently works is a mystery, although most things point to it being a soft cap on per-hit damage. One shotting Lephanits is a good chuckle but it takes away from one of the most imposing (and better designed) bosses in the game. It taking a few shots to take Lephantis down at all player levels is something I can understand. Orphix: I think these things are probably one of the best use cases for damage attenuation. While rewarding well geared players with big number is important, this enemy represents an entire phase of a combat encounter. The mission is designed in a way for it to be a point in time where everyone focuses on the big baddie, not a quick one-shot that the majority of the party ignores. Liches and Sisters: The thing that started all of this… Yes, I think these enemies should retain damage attenuation. These enemies represent a narrative thread as much as they do a combat encounter, a fight against your nemesis shouldn’t be over in a single shot. As mentioned far earlier there is room to change the strength of damage attenuation by simply changing the 100,000 for something else. An enemy like the Orphix should have a higher value as you are expected go specifically gear into DPS’ing them down. On the other hand an enemy like Nox should have a lower value to make it more difficult to ignore their special mechanic. By making Damage Attenuation a consistent and easy to adjust mechanic DE has a better tool in their toolbox that can be used to craft more interesting combat. And for us players it makes for a fair squish that still rewards our progression. It is a win win. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.
  11. I would argue this is a good, not bad thing. It gives DE a single value control over how hard they want to squish player damage. I am not advocating for this, but if they wanted to slap this form of DR on all bosses in the game they could tune the value to correlate with player progression. Maybe Jackal has a value of 5,000, Sargus at 20,000, and Kela at 80,000. DE already tunes damage attenuation on an enemy-to-enemy basis but the results are far more inconsistent given how the DR is calculated. A fine dial is far better than the jumbled mess that is current damage attenuation. That's... that's the point. Damage attenuation is there to make the feel of a fight consistent across all progression levels. If this is a good thing is another discussion but it seems clear that DE wants for this to be a thing. They want a Sister or Lich to feel like a fight for everyone from a player who just finished TWW to players with full Arcane sets from Steel Path. I also don't think you have the full picture of how this DR breaks down given the damage we actually deal. In the example for the last comment I was using an example of 200,000 DPS and the DR was only 62%. With the insane buffs to weapons we got recently 400,000 DPS seems to be the new "hey, that's pretty good" marker. So let's double that to 800,000 and we get... 79% DR. Okay, let's Banshee it, 8,000,000 DPS, that is... 93% DR. 93% DR is nothing to scoff at, it is essentially 14x the EHP of an enemy, but I think that this diminishes your argument that this unreasonably caps damage. If I remember correctly the current formula will slap a 95% DR on things if it deems it is too good. This isn't invalidating your progress, your big number will kill an enemy faster. I'm sorry I don't have a full breakdown of how this impacts actual combat situations but putting those charts together takes more time than copy-paste into Desmos. It''l be there in the full proposal when I get to finishing that up. That's not the equilibrium I am talking about. Because the damage that is counted in [SUM] disappears after two seconds the DR value actually drops for a moment after the initial two seconds. This drop means you deal a bit more damage, which increases the DR again. This cycle continues until the DR settles on an equilibrium value that is specific to the DPS that the enemy is taking. Making a=0 removes [SUM] from the equation, that is not what this is, equilibrium is when [SUM] is equal to a value that causes the DR to no longer change over time. 'a' in your sheet is the amount of times the enemy would be instanced with 'x' damage over the [SUM] interval (2 seconds is what I have been suggesting). Reducing 'a' to zero just removes [SUM] from the equation which is not representative of anything I have proposed. I have given you examples that show the impact of this alpha damage aren't nearly as massive as you imply. Back to that 8,000,000 DPS example, using the 80 and 5 hit-per-interval weapons, the 80 hit rate weapon would take 76 hits to catch up. That is almost two full seconds, that's pretty rough, but by four seconds the two weapons have basically evened out. It is an advantage to a sniper rifle but this degree of difference isn't game breaking, I doubt that anyone but the most insane boot-camp min/maxers would do anything to their builds to exploit this. I don't think you'll be convinced by this but I hope that if you saw the breakdowns I am seeing on my excel sheets you would at least see where I am coming from. Putting together fancy spreadsheets for another person's proposal of a calculation change in a video game isn't something I would expect out of someone. I just hope you can have a more open mind when I get the presentation side of the proposal put together.
  12. No formula can be perfect because it has to account for uncertainty. Putting the formula into a graphing calculator can be useful to show a core mechanic to it but it doesn't give a realistic idea of how it impacts your DPS. The things that the formula does when you exceed 100x the "intended" DPS doesn't really matter, a mistake with the formula I posted was that the 10,000 was far too low for an "endgame" scenario, 100,000 being a better target. Another thing you don't see is how, over time, the formula actually favors lower damage-per-hit weapons. With a 100,000 base instead of 10,000, here's what the results become when looking at the impact of your damage. A weapon that hits 80 times in the two second window with a DPS of 200,000 equalizes at a 62% DR. After eight seconds it deals a total 662,000 damage. The initial DR (first hit) is 5%. A weapon that hits 5 times in a two second window with a DPS of 200,000 equalizes at a 63% DR. After eight seconds it deals a total of 600,000 damage. The initial DR is 31%. Even in just the first two second window the higher hit rate weapon pulls ahead. While the low hit rate does get a higher initial hit, in this practical example it only takes 15 hits from the high hit rate weapon to equalize with the low it rate option. In a perfect world this imbalance wouldn't exist but the only way I can think of making a perfectly "fair" formula is for it to be able to see the future. What I think you missed is that while yes, the initial hit doesn't have to worry about the [SUM] part, the [Damage] is always an extra stat being added on to the DR even after an equilibrium of [SUM] is met. The lower the "random number" is relative to the actual DPS the greater the ability for a high alpha damage weapon to ignore a bit of the DR. Again, it isn't perfect, but I am hard pressed to come up with anything that is closer. Don't forget that the current system we have actually encourages you to gimp your load-out to deal optimal DPS, the current situation is far more broken than this proposal. The formula I provided does effectively make a cap on damage but the way it works out in practice is that it creates a smooth curve of DR that ensures a higher DPS always coincides with a higher DPS. This is all better viewed in an excel sheet than a single graph in my opinion. Nothing with the graph is wrong per se but it is throwing around a bunch of numbers that don't really match up to an in-game impact.
  13. I'm late to this show but I'll give my two cents anyway. The damage attenuation formula that DE uses for Liches is one of the biggest loads of horse poo I've seen out of them. The way it applies DR is mathematically consistent, sure, but it isn't a consistent reduction of player power. It affects certain weapons far more significantly than others and commits a cardinal sin of making more progression be a detriment to your effectiveness. We shouldn't be havng to make neutered builds or find weapons that abuse the way the DR works to try and get around it, if DE wants to make a diminishing returns DR then it should affect our gear in a consistent way that still rewards us for having powerful loadouts. With the ability Banshee has she SHOULD be the best Lich killer. Hell, she should be the best anything killer. As it stands Banshee straight up ignores the DR DE has applies to Liches, that is busted, but without a substantial rework to how that DR works the only solution is to just make them immune. And in my opinion I would far rather have a Warframe be useful than not, I agree that it is busted but trying to pretend that nerfing banshee is for the sake of consistency is stupid. Once the damage attenuation is consistent then I am all for things affecting it consistently, I'm tired of band-aids that make build-crafting irrelevant. Furthermore there is a part of me that thinks Banshee deserves some time to be good at something. She has always been in the trash can due to DE going out of their way to make her not work against the only enemies that we would want her to work against. They made an oopsie and did not apply their anti-Banshee cream to Liches/Sisters and we finally have a use case for Banshee. It is essentially a broke band-aid but the other alternatives (besides reworking damage attenuation to not be cow poo) are all band-aids as well. Personally I think Banshee having a niche is the lesser of the available evils. I've put together what I think is a better damage attenuation formula. It is actually consistent in how it applies diminishing returns to our damage output, meaning better things will always be better, by repurposing the armor DR formula with extra steps. The core principle is that damage attenuation is a DR that builds up as you deal damage to an enemy. After two seconds the damage you added is forgotten, creating an equilibrium DR at different DPS levels. The way it works and how I came up with it is all very math-y so I have been working on a post to break it down. Not there yet, but here's the formula. [Actual Damage] = The damage number that you see [SUM] = The total damage the enemy has taken in the past two seconds [Damage] = The damage you would have dealt if damage attenuation didn't exist Banshee would natively "just work" with the above formula. Hitting a sonar spot will still be more damage than not hitting a sonar part but it will be hit with a massive DR so it won't be the full multiplier more. It "nerfs" Banshee but in an actually fair way. That's my problem with this current Banshee thing, it isn't fair. Banshee has never been treated "fairly" by nearly always making her abilities be ignored by enemies. Damage attenuation isn't a fair DR and Banshee ignoring it is more of a ding against the DR than it is against Banshee. TL;DR: Fix the damage attenuation, then we can talk about Banshee. Banshee being busted is a symptom of a larger problem and DE should fix the source rather than band-aid another symptom.
  14. My favorite example of this is how damage resistances interact with armor. Damage resistances seem simple enough. An enemy takes 50% more damage from Impact than your Impact damage is increased by 50%. Armored enemies have two resistances, one for health and one for armor. So for those enemies it would follow that you multiply both of values by the damage. This does happen, but that's not all. In addition to being a flat damage multiplier the armor resistance multiplier also reduces the armor value used in the armor damage reduction formula. This means damage types that have a bonus against armor specifically have an innate baby corrosive proc built in. This sounds cool on paper, I can imagine some math nerds loving this interaction, but what the actual fudge... Why in Lotus's name do we need an armor ignoring mechanic tacked on to a damage resistance system that also has status effects that reduce armor? In a game about killing hordes of enemies with reckless abandon... It is such an absurdly niche and complex mechanic that has a not-insignificant impact on the damage you deal to heavily armored enemies, it is effectively a status effect that is untied from the status system. To be fair this has been an "unsustainable situation" for the last five years. The points being made have been made countless times, clearly the doom-saying did not hold any weight. DE has managed to ride the "it works I guess" wave for this long and to be honest I don't see why they couldn't continue to do so. While I am inclined to think that the next straw will break the camel's back I thought the last ten would have. Warframe would be a better game with a ground-up rework to damage and scaling that makes for a balanced and more consistent power fantasy. But I have been ranting on the Forums for *checks Forum join date* an oof amount of years now and nothing has gone anywhere. The status rework actually worsened problems I perceived status to have before yet the community has taken it as a systemic improvement. Maybe a layer cake of band-aids is good enough for Warframe to continue being fun. I am sad that it isn't living up to what it could be but I am content that it is at least still good.
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