Actually Impossible To Pay For Mod Upgrading/ducat Items. Deep Explanation Within. Please Support.

[-BELLUM-]

I know the grind can suck but i'm going to respectfully disagree on this one.

 

Primed mods can take warframe builds to new heights and if you want the power....you have the work for it.

 

I've played 3000 hours on warframe and at one point i was also a big "nolifer".

The void trader has given me reason to keep playing Warframe.

 

Keep going, try to look at it this way..... each mission you play, each enemy you kill, each event you complete, makes your stronger and stronger.

 

 

PS: I've bought and maxed every primed mod i've come across at this point. It is possible.

Edited March 4, 2015 by -BELLUM-

[Sifu]

Might wanna look up the data properly before hurling those claims at me if you don't want to look stupid.

 

Since it's obviously too much to ask to get your numbers straight, let me do that for you:

 

17h farming for the 528 cores.

4h farming for the 1.6kk credits

________________________

21h farming within 2 weeks = 1.5h daily

 

Conclusion: Even your "average" gamer (i think a real average gamer plays more) can EXACTLY max one mod per week if he chooses to do so, fun and monotony aside.

 

Might wanna read up the info properly before hurling those claims at me if you don't want to look stupid.

 

Average player, considering he will ever be able to get legendary mods, will HAVE to spent 1.5 hours DAILY precisely to FARM for cores. If that is OK with you, well, good luck farming in such way till you burn out.

 

17h for 528 cores, really? I get like 5-10 cores per hour at best with average gameplay, let me see, how much I can get in 17 hours... well... maths so hard... 528? nonono, more like 85-170 cores looks more like true. What? I`m not efficient? But I`m playing and farming? What? I MUST get 31 core per hour, so 1 core per 2 minutes? And this is solely to KEEP UP with legendary mods only? Forget about syndicates, about resources...

 

4h for 1.6kk? 1h for 400k... So I should do only T4C or T4E WITH boosters... ok... I`m an average player in average clan... ok... maths so hard... 1 hour is about 12 T4 fast runs at best, so 300k without a booster.. sounds legit? But its EVERY day for 5 days to hit 1.6kk. And you`ll need much more really - all this health and energy restores + time to find a team... oh and well... you`ll ned KEYS! Of course! Average player have thousands of keys!

 

Your calculations, my dear, are out of reality. I said already, we are not here to proof someones theories in farming, we are talking here about how grindy it is. And average player will not waste 2-3 hours per day for only farming. If you cant understand that, what are we talking about here? 

Edited March 4, 2015 by Vicious_D

[Dunkingmachine]

How is that 'my choice' when I have to farm 35 cores EVERY DAY to keep up?  You have to be efficient if you need to farm this much, or it takes much more time. What sucks the fun out of the game is the need to farm really a lot and lack of any challenge due to poor balance. You dont get rewards for playing well, only for wasting lots of time. Thats why people came up with boring efficient ways to farm using macro scripts even. 

But MY choice is not to, like I already said, Ill play something else that is fun, Im not into grindans, I dont even care about rewards. Last time I had fun in WF is when we had clan challenges playing survivals with various made-up limitations, no Necros, weapon limits, dragon keys. If I just feel like killing things I'll jump into low level planet with melee or underlevelled weapons.

 

You can still be efficient without taking the easiest route, and have more fun while doing so, that's all. I'm more of a solo player and loved spending time in t4s, so i can understand you to some point - however, if you choose to neglect the route that quickly leads to a maxed primed mod in 2 weeks, you are simply choosing to not max the mod. That IS your personal choice, and in general, i think it's unreasonable for a player to complain about impossible grind (i know you haven't done that, just in general) when he himself is making it impossible by playing in a way that doesn't lead towards the goal.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Einde

[elixze]

Lol, I play sometimes up to 10 hours of warframe, but normally it's around 2 or 3 hours and 4 if possible. I doubt someone like me who plays this game at a so-called moderate pace can afford ranking up even the smallest amount of mods. I could go credit farming none-stop and have a huge credit stack, but what about r5 cores xD? It's so boring to farm those...

[SoyMalone]

Your calculations, my dear, are out of reality. I said already, we are not here to proof someones theories in farming, we are talking here about how grindy it is. And average player will not waste 2-3 hours per day for only farming. If you cant understand that, what are we talking about here? 

If you would please read the OP you will see that:

 

 

 

Part 1:  Upgrading Mods - Their costs.

 

. . . . . . .

 

THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE to afford, and to maintain in this game. Even super rich players, cannot afford to keep this up for long. This throws New Players into the trashcan, before they have even started. Any business, in order to generate revenue, needs more customers.

 

. . . . . . .

 

Mod Fusion is currently unaffordable and impossible, by a whopping 2/3rds over any possible effort that can be made to keep up. So you must understand why the cost of Fusion, needs a TITANIC sized nerf..

 

 

The conversation has naturally degenerated as people have taken lone points and run with them, but he is actually answering a point by the OP.

 

Farming specifically for cores would be exhausting, excessive and take away from the enjoyment of Warframe (unless grinding is something is you enjoy) and has only been provided as an example. I have yet to see a single cogent reason for someone having to buy and max every Primed mod before the trader resurfaces. However if Dunkingmachine's figures are in the right ballpark you could halve that and max a mod every month and probably not even feel that grind. 

 

What, in your eyes, would be a reasonable time frame to max a Primed mod with non grind-specific gameplay?

Edited March 4, 2015 by SoyMalone

[MokkoriSama]

Might wanna look up the data properly before hurling those claims at me if you don't want to look stupid.

 

Since it's obviously too much to ask to get your numbers straight, let me do that for you:

 

17h farming for the 528 cores.

4h farming for the 1.6kk credits

________________________

21h farming within 2 weeks = 1.5h daily

 

Conclusion: Even your "average" gamer (i think a real average gamer plays more) can EXACTLY max one mod per week if he chooses to do so, fun and monotony aside.

 

 

Exact.

[VergilDT]

I raised the recent Primed Continuity from empty to currently R8 in roughly 3 days. I honestly don't know where you're getting all this from but it seems a bit farfetched to say the least. Credits can be farmed by the boatload in multiple locations. Unless you are ridiculously unlucky, Ducats are easy to come by as well, keys are not difficult to obtain, even a T1 Defense can yield multiple keys within 20-30 waves, again unless you are perposterously unlucky you should be getting a prime part of some kind almost every void run you make.

[Liminal]

fun and monotony aside.

Exactly, it's bad for the game because it ignores the fact that players needs to enjoy the game, and most people don't enjoy doing the same thing over and over.

 

"Impossible" is an exaggeration, yes, but it sure as hell is at the very least "not okay".

[Mxysptlik]

I've clocked 1617 hours ingame and I only have enough rare 5s to fully max one legendary and with some left over with the cores I've acquired in that time, and that with me generally hoarding cores like a dragon hoards gold. I might be able to max a second if  I use all my common and uncommon cores, but I haven't tested. There are more than two legendary mods to max.

 

There's "a bit of time" and there's this. If you think it's reasonable to ask for a vet to burn their entire stock of fusion cores, a stock built up over more than a year of play, maxing one solitary mod, you're mad. If a mod takes that much effort to max it better let me oneshot level 9999s, make me breakfast, and also give me sexual favors through the internet.

 

^ THIS should stand out to Dev's and Players alike. Thats more than 200 days of 8 hrs a day = A FULL TIME JOB.

[SoyMalone]

^ THIS should stand out to Dev's and Players alike. Thats more than 200 days of 8 hrs a day = A FULL TIME JOB.

 

It is definitely a figure that stands out, however that is something he chooses to do. There will always be games with players that devote that time to them no matter how the game is balanced. 

 

A couple of points and breakdowns have shown that you can have what he wants without that number of hours played. Admittedly the methods suggested are grindy, but when there is a 'most efficient' way of acquiring something this is normally the case. There are shades between casual commitment and full on min-max grinding, and it has been shown that you can get enough R5 cores in about 17h45m play on Triton.

 

When spread out over the 2 week period we have been using as a base (relating to maxing mods for Baro Ki'Teer) means you are spending less than 1.5 hours per day over that period and you will have the cores to max it.

 

Anything less than the most efficient way of doing something obviously takes longer, and if 1617 hours produces just enough to max one Primed mod then efficiency in his method is certainly questionable if his only goal is to get cores.

[(PSN)Bowjangelz]

Just for fun, I wanted to see what it would take me to keep up with ducat faming, credit farming, and trying to max out either one of the primed mods, ranking both to 9, or having a chunk of R5s to finish some of the rare 10’s I still have to complete. Below is the most efficient daily routine I could come up with. Averages are from runs I have made since December. Obviously this will change once PS4 get the changes PC now has, but still wanted to see what it would take for me right now.

 

Goals for every 14 days:

1.    Have enough ducats for one of everything the void trader is selling (Setting this at 1050, the average last time I checked wiki)

2.    Have enough credits for ranking the mods with a bit extra since am likely to use some gear (Setting this at 2 million)

3.    Have enough R5’s to rank one primed mod or both to R9 (528)

4.    Not significantly burn through my keys without replacing some (otherwise this will not be sustainable)

5.    Still max my syndicate standing each day

 

Per day:

1.    75 ducats

2.    142,857 credits per day

3.    38 R5’s per day

4.    Will depend on method

5.    6 syndicate missions

 

Efficient Options:

*I average 28 R5’s per 60 min T4 survival, or 9 R5’s per 20 min run. (Ps4 has not had the star map addition or the T4s nerf yet). One of these also gives me around 30,000 credits and 40 ducats for a 60 min run or 12 ducats for a 20 min run. It generally takes at least 10 minutes to get one of these started whether I join a public group or invite friends (being very generous here).

 

*I can run a T3 or T4 capture in about 3 min and net 27,000 credits with a prime part averaging 32 ducats. These can take about 10-15 min to find a public lobby or I can use my own key and only take 1-2 min to start, but I would have to farm keys to replace.

 

*I can farm T4 keys taking about 12 minutes per game, but taking an average of 3 games to get 1 T4 key. (Nat Talent LOVES ME).

 

*I can farm T3 keys by excavating, averaging 1 T3 key per 17 minutes (T2s drop a lot too)

 

*I can purchase a T3 or T4 key for standing each day if I wanted to

 

***I dc from about 5% of games, usually significantly far into them; these averages do not take those into account.

 

 

To Complete Goals:

*Run 1x 60 min survival and 1x 20 min survival to receive 37 R5’s, 60,000 credits, and 52 ducats. (Let’s call this enough R5’s).

*Run 3x T3 or T4 capture keys for the remaining credits needed, also getting the ducats.

*I will need to join public groups for all of these so I can avoid adding time for key farming. (From the standpoint of being most efficient).

*Syndicate mission times vary, but averages about 90 minutes to run all of them if I also search out all medallions

 

So:

*1x 60 min T4 survival

*1x 20 min T4 survival

*3x T3/T4 Captures

*All syndicate missions completed

 

 

How long would that take me?

60 + 10 + 20 + 10 + 16 + 5 +16 + 90 = 238 minutes = over 3.75 hours per night if I only key leech, never dc, all games go as planned, and I never have an unlucky day

 

If I forget about syndicates, it will take me 2.25 hours per day, again, if I only key leech, never dc, all games go as planned, and I never have an unlucky day

 

Not sure what that should mean. Just wanted to put my own math out there. I prefer to play without a strict schedule like this, but just wanted to see what it would take.  

Edited March 4, 2015 by (PS4)Bowjangelz

[Liminal]

It is definitely a figure that stands out, however that is something he chooses to do. There will always be games with players that devote that time to them no matter how the game is balanced. 

 

A couple of points and breakdowns have shown that you can have what he wants without that number of hours played. Admittedly the methods suggested are grindy, but when there is a 'most efficient' way of acquiring something this is normally the case. There are shades between casual commitment and full on min-max grinding, and it has been shown that you can get enough R5 cores in about 17h45m play on Triton.

 

When spread out over the 2 week period we have been using as a base (relating to maxing mods for Baro Ki'Teer) means you are spending less than 1.5 hours per day over that period and you will have the cores to max it.

 

Anything less than the most efficient way of doing something obviously takes longer, and if 1617 hours produces just enough to max one Primed mod then efficiency in his method is certainly questionable if his only goal is to get cores.

The problem here is the devs make it sound like "you will get what you are after just by playing the game" and that's simply not true. You either focus and grind to get what you want, or you get a million ammo drums, and nanospores. In almost every single case, you will not get what you are after "by simply playing the game". That's the problem with WF.

[SoyMalone]

The problem here is the devs make it sound like "you will get what you are after just by playing the game" and that's simply not true. You either focus and grind to get what you want, or you get a million ammo drums, and nanospores. In almost every single case, you will not get what you are after "by simply playing the game". That's the problem with WF.

 

While you are still getting cores and mods of all polarities from all missions you are getting things directly applicable to maxing mods. Without directed play or farming it will obviously take longer, but how is that any different from any other game with this sort of model? Sure you accrue more common materials or mods than rarer ones, that goes with the nature of having one thing being more common than another.

 

It certainly doesn't make 'you will get what you want by just playing the game' a false statement.

 

They could make everything potentially lootable from every enemy and mission, but that would make the game too nebulous and getting specific items would be a giant RNG cluster . . . thing. 

[Liminal]

While you are still getting cores and mods of all polarities from all missions you are getting things directly applicable to maxing mods. Without directed play or farming it will obviously take longer, but how is that any different from any other game with this sort of model? Sure you accrue more common materials or mods than rarer ones, that goes with the nature of having one thing being more common than another.

 

It certainly doesn't make 'you will get what you want by just playing the game' a false statement.

 

They could make everything potentially lootable from every enemy and mission, but that would make the game too nebulous and getting specific items would be a giant RNG cluster . . . thing. 

Considering I can only max onyl one prime mod with all the stuff I've gathered since U5, I'd say it's not actually possible to max 2 of them by simply playing the way I'm playing. In fact, unless no other prime mods come out, I surely won't be able to max more than 4 before WF "ends".

I'm still playing mostly every day (playing every single day isn't something many people can do, despite it being unbelievable to some) and I'm not far from MR18, I keep ranking stuff up, but unless I decide to grind the s**t out of voids I don't get enough ducats for a Primed Lollipop :/

 

I don't like the Void (I used to), I don't like survival (I used to), yet I have to play those if I want to get stuff 100+ times faster (ie: in this lifetime). 

 

To me, playing the game right now is doing syndicate alerts, since it's the only way I get to play a variety of modes and tilesets in relatively high level (but low enough to use any weapon and frame) and get guaranteed reward. With the added bonus of encouraged exploration to find medallions. If everything in the game worked like that* I'd be addicted to WF.

 

*of course, I agree that not everything should be dropped in the same rng bag, but maybe if we could pick what we are after and anything we did contributed towards that goal (quite abstract, yes) ... that's why I mention syndicates: I think it's the good way to implement a grind.

[SoyMalone]

Considering I can only max onyl one prime mod with all the stuff I've gathered since U5, I'd say it's not actually possible to max 2 of them by simply playing the way I'm playing. In fact, unless no other prime mods come out, I surely won't be able to max more than 4 before WF "ends".

I'm still playing mostly every day (playing every single day isn't something many people can do, despite it being unbelievable to some) and I'm not far from MR18, I keep ranking stuff up, but unless I decide to grind the s**t out of voids I don't get enough ducats for a Primed Lollipop :/

 

I don't like the Void (I used to), I don't like survival (I used to), yet I have to play those if I want to get stuff 100+ times faster (ie: in this lifetime). 

 

To me, playing the game right now is doing syndicate alerts, since it's the only way I get to play a variety of modes and tilesets in relatively high level (but low enough to use any weapon and frame) and get guaranteed reward. With the added bonus of encouraged exploration to find medallions. If everything in the game worked like that* I'd be addicted to WF.

 

*of course, I agree that not everything should be dropped in the same rng bag, but maybe if we could pick what we are after and anything we did contributed towards that goal (quite abstract, yes) ... that's why I mention syndicates: I think it's the good way to implement a grind.

 

I think I see what you mean about picking your goal - something like adding a positive multiplier to the drop chance of said item but not a definite click and collect situation?

 

To be honest if you run void sabotage you would cut your ducat farming town considerably with the new cache pool including prime parts. RNG is RNG of course, but even with my luck I've gotten 500 ducats within a few hours. Although if you aren't a fan of the void then any time metric will feel protracted, such is the way of things.

 

Going by Dunkingmachine's figures you could spend a relatively low amount of time doing the suggested excavation (even averaging once a day) as a path to getting the cores and it wouldn't take much more than a month to achieve. I don't consider that to be a tall order when Primed/R10+ mods are endgame content.

 

As you say your current play style doesn't lend itself to quick acquisition of cores etc, so that would generally mean you have two choices -

 

Incorporate more efficient methods of accruing cores

 

or, 

 

Accept that you don't like the grind specific nature of getting them and be content with normal mods that can fully destroy all but level 100+ enemies.

[Liminal]

 

I don't consider that to be a tall order when Primed/R10+ mods are endgame content.

Neither would I, if the rules of the game hadn't suddenly changed for me. This kind of "power farming" wasn't required before, when I managed to get all guns, frames and mods and rank them all up by mostly "just playing". I can only hope this is the "farmiest" WF will ever get, because seeing all of my resources being insufficient for 2 of these mods is quite disheartening.

 

As you say your current play style doesn't lend itself to quick acquisition of cores etc, so that would generally mean you have two choices -

 

Incorporate more efficient methods of accruing cores

That's my point, to get stuff you need to farm. Farming implies doing something repeatedly and as quickly as possible. I don't think that's healthy for WF.

 

And I'm not talking about only cores. Everything (but syndicates) in WF works like that.

 

 

I think I see what you mean about picking your goal - something like adding a positive multiplier to the drop chance of said item but not a definite click and collect situation?

That could work, among other things. Pseudo rng that increases with every negative result, token systems (like standing), specific equipment that specifies which kinds of drops you can get, hell, I don't know, there are a many ways to alleviate the grind while keeping playtime constant.

[SoyMalone]

 

_-snip-

Pretty much yes. I guess this is a natural problem/progression of having more things to loot than ever before - they all have to go somewhere. Seeing your founder badge means you know how the game used to be with only a handful of weapons and just a corpus ship for a tile set. Everything was much closer to hand back then.

 

I would be on board for any system that buffers the rng while still making the game financially viable for DE, although I have no idea what form that would take. Perhaps homogenizing existing systems from other games might provide somewhere to start from?

[Onisa]

Running t1c to get ducats, do you know how ret****d that is? Pouch dropchance is 5.64%. Chance to drop keys/forma is 57.26% You picked one of the worst missions one can think of to farm ducats and are basing your time calculation on that. What the actual fck. Run some t2sabs next time, where you have a 40,85% chance TWICE to get 50 ducats. Basically every 1 game. NO forma dropchance, only prime parts. I ran 10+ of those recently and traded a wyrm part for 4 hikou bps to 2 of the players i ran with after the session, i made more than those 1000 ducats within i bit more than 1h. 11h/day, LOL. Way to be as inefficient as possible.

I looked at the keys I had. I knew my friend needed something out of one. I figured 'it can't be much worse than 50% to get any part out of that key, I should get three or four parts and they're quick'. But that's not what RNG gave me. It gave me seven keys and a single Boar Prime Receiver.

If I had a surplus of Sab keys, or even a single friend on at the time willing to key share them I certainly would have run the six I have. But I'm not going to trawl recruiting for 10-20 minutes per key just for that mission type since it kinda defeats the purpose of efficiency. I also don't like hosting just to have the second key not be run because people tend to bail, and I might as well solo at that point. Congratulations for being so lucky, I'm thrilled for you. Really.

 

Um, dude? Eleven KEYS per day. Not hours. Well, unless you only run 60 min survivals, but that's just excessive.

 

 

Better stick to not double posting.

 

1. No, i didn't say what you think i said.

2. Triton is viable with a lot of frames

3. Excavators can't be sped up by a "most optimal setup" so as long as you can deploy fast enough (every frame can copter) and protect your comp doesn't matter. This comes down to player skill of course, if you can't handle it might wanna stick to frost/frost/mag/mesa

Nah, I'm fairly sure that's what you said. Monolake gave you the most efficient way to run an excavation mission and you told them to be less efficient.

And then you said it again when they replied to you.

 

 

Now hold up, because if have to quote this for extra hilarity:

 

 

Now for the part i actually quoted:

 

 

 

So what's the info i picked out of context here? You literally said 4-8h 2 times a week would be hardcore. Now in what way contradicts this my claim of 2 days gaming a week being pretty casual? Using your weekend to play 4-8h a day isn't hardcore. Playing for 8h every day would be pretty hardcore. That's just another way to spend your weekend.

 Over four hours in a single session is dedicated bordering upon hardcore, and eight hours at a time is certainly hardcore gaming. I could see how it might not seem so to children with no responsibilities though. After all that is just 'another way to spend your weekend'. But we're not all kids.

[dashashou]

forest and trees - 

 

weither it's impossible or neigh impossible  - it's way too much work  to reward as it currently stands . 

[Liminal]

Pretty much yes. I guess this is a natural problem/progression of having more things to loot than ever before - they all have to go somewhere. Seeing your founder badge means you know how the game used to be with only a handful of weapons and just a corpus ship for a tile set. Everything was much closer to hand back then.

But these new mods are even harder to max than anything we got previously while no "primed cores" actually exist. A new, longer track has been created, but our legs are still the same.

[J1ffyLub3]

as of lately, most of my gameplay has been grinding and not playing just for fun

 

its quite taxing, really. i want to play the game, but in order to progress i need those resources. this can lead to entire nights of nothing but grind which just leads to frustration because the game becomes far less entertaining

 

especially if you don't have the time to play the game as much as other people

[Muinocriz]

Sounds to me like you're getting tired of the game. You know what must be done... Find a new addiction! Yay! I personally recommend hookers and cocaine. It even gets a suicidal depressed person to love life again and want to actually go experience things! Albeit, high on coke while banging hookers, but at least they're out there and coping with their addiction in a positive way!

 

On a more serious note, what you're doing is probably unhealthy for yourself, but I don't know your situation. If you are financially secure, eat well, and all that other good stuff, then whatever. But from that whole "great sacrifice to my life, both in time and financially" is worrisome. I hope everything is all right in your life and that you aren't using warframe as an escape. Or even worse, to get a sense of superiority.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

It is definitely a figure that stands out, however that is something he chooses to do. There will always be games with players that devote that time to them no matter how the game is balanced.

 

I posted my core hoard there. I acquired it predominantly through casual play rather than grinding. I've been working on it since U7 and I generally go out of my way to avoid core use, so not everyone who's played as long as I have will have as many cores as I do.

 

There are more efficient ways to grind but making players grind until their fingers bleed in a game where you already have to grind for everything else isn't pleasant.

 

Moreover, demanding what amounts to players playing the game like a full time job (note that I, a player who due to circumstance was able to actually do this still can't max more than two legendary mods without highly targeted grinding) is terrible in every meaningful way, and you guys defending this need to stop because holy carp it's horrible unless you're kids with no actual life.

 

So yeah, I fully understand where the OP's coming from and all you guys who argue against him are missing the point.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[SoyMalone]

While I agree that spending the equivalent of a full time job's worth of hours on the game can be downright unhealthy, I feel that you are missing a key point about how long it would theoretically take to max those mods.

Do you not agree with Dunkingmachine's appraisal of 17.5 hours play to farm enough cores for Primed mod maxing?

If we take that number as true we certainly aren't missing OP's point as it directly states that resources required to max all Primed mods are impossible to acquire/maintain.

If anything that averages out at under 1.5 hours per day, which is only if you want to get them within the 2 week cycle. If you arent bound by that limitation then one 45(ish)min session per day ( on average) will see you with enough cores in 4 weeks.

That is nowhere near "making players grind until their fingers bleed". It is however the most efficient way to do it. If you choose to do it another way you don't have much of a leg to stand on when claiming everything takes too long to farm.

If you do disagree with his figures on farming then please present evidence of your own to counter.

[Ajreil]

While the void trader may be impossible to keep up with now, he will NOT be releasing new stuff every single week. DE stated in a recent Devstream that the void trader's stocks will be on a repeating cycle. Last cycle on PC we saw two duplicates.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Ajreil