In Response To The Mods "underclocking" Statements Made In The Stream By Scott

[CaptMytre]

Considering it's a rather small thing considering the state of the game, not actually being 100% finished, there is still room for many things to happen. Whilst people will say that the process is annoying, there are many missions that you can run through and possibly even more to come that will reduce this annoyance down to nothing more than a 5 minute issue. Though at this point we don't actually know what the consequence is, the only 'consequence' is having a lower leveled mod and credits and mods/cores used to upgrade the mod. But what else? The defusion could very well cost more credits than a normal fusion. We just don't know and neither does DE, not yet anyway.

 

In my opinion, it's better to just ignore the whole defusing of mods since at this stage it's not really needed. If it's added then great, another optional thing to do. If not then does it really matter? If you're looking for something to do, why not run some missions and farm for mods?

 

Edit: Got ninja posted.

 

I'm not ignoring if you have more than one frame. Since you CAN swap mods from one Frame and/or Weapon to another, providing it has the slots to do so. You just have to open Arsenal, swap out the mods and be done. Use that Warframe. Run missions. ???. Profit.

 

Ok, clearly you still don't get it. I take it you aren't at this stage yourself.

 

I'm at the stage now where I've maxed quiet a few mods out, and close to maxing others out etc. The thing is that I am at the point where I have so many high ranked mods, on a maxed frame with a potato, I have to leave one or two slots empty, since I can't afford the power to fill them. Now, this itself isn't the issue, it is that I can't scale back their powers so I can use them. It isn't like I'm getting anything for free, I've put work and time into getting these mods to this stage, and now I cannot do anything with them sometimes. The worst thing is, when you have like 9 power left, and the mod you want to put in requires 10. Wasted power that I can't do anything with.

[CaptMytre]

Maybe we should fuse this thread with the other one that's been going on for over a week on this exact topic.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/38278-underclocking-mods-mentioned-on-livestream/

 

I would, but I don't want my post to get lost between the drivel posts I've seen there.

[BearlyKoalified]

I do understand where you're coming from but you don't seem to understand where I am coming from either.

 

Do your Warframes have the Orokin Reactor? That would give them 60 Slots in total, so if they did that would be a hard thing to fully achieve as not a lot Warframe mods get near to 10 or above. So yes, there would be wasted power. Without the Reactor, that's still 30 Mod Slots in total, again it can be a bit tricky however you have maxed most mods out so, without the Reactor with a Warframe maxed out on mods, with all slots filled, yes that would most likely be full power usage used. It also depends on what mods you are using of course.

 

I know that feel when you have X power left, let's just say 5, and the mod you need requires 6 and you're like FFFFFFUUUUUU. But there isn't a lot you can do about it, unless you can level up the Warframe or remove/replace a mod.

[Iraetus]

I agree. The main point we use lower level mods because we worked so hard to make the mod into a higher rank and/or it doesn't fit the mod energy space. We won't just "unfuse" it just because we want to experiment.

[CaptMytre]

I do understand where you're coming from but you don't seem to understand where I am coming from either.

 

Do your Warframes have the Orokin Reactor? That would give them 60 Slots in total, so if they did that would be a hard thing to fully achieve as not a lot Warframe mods get near to 10 or above. So yes, there would be wasted power. Without the Reactor, that's still 30 Mod Slots in total, again it can be a bit tricky however you have maxed most mods out so, without the Reactor with a Warframe maxed out on mods, with all slots filled, yes that would most likely be full power usage used. It also depends on what mods you are using of course.

 

I know that feel when you have X power left, let's just say 5, and the mod you need requires 6 and you're like FFFFFFUUUUUU. But there isn't a lot you can do about it, unless you can level up the Warframe or remove/replace a mod.

 

1. You don't have a point, it's rendered invalid by my point.

 

2. I said "on a maxed frame with a potato".

 

3. It isn't "hard thing to fully achieve", again showing that you don't get it. I'll give you two examples, and this is but 1 out of 9 frames and 1 out of 27 weapons that I have this problem with.

 

Hek lvl 30+C = 60p:

 

Flechette lvl 4 - 8p

 

Incendiary Coat lvl 3 - 9p

 

Point Blank lvl 3 - 7p

 

Tactical Pump lvl 3 - 5p

 

Ammo stock lvl 3 - 5p

 

Charged Shell lvl 2 - 8p

 

Chilling Grasp lvl 2 - 6p

 

Hell's Chamber lvl 2 - 12p

 

Right there, I've built my Hek shotgun loadout. That's all 60 points taken. Now it seems like that's great, but I have enough Flechette mods to level it up to it's max level, but I won't, because if I do, I won't be able to fit one of the other mods. Now, if I get my Strun, I can use the exact same build, but I can't tailor my mods to it unless I want to stuff up my Hek.

 

 

Mag lvl 30+C = 60p:

 

Pull lvl 2 - (4/2) 2p

 

Rush lvl 5 - (12/2) 6p

 

Quick Rest lvl 3 - 7p

 

Reach lvl 3 - 7p

 

Shield Polarize lvl 2 - (6/2) 3p

 

Bullet Attractor lvl 1 - (8/2) 4p

 

Flow lvl 1 - (6/2) 3p

 

Redirection lvl 5 - 9p

 

Continuity lvl 4 - 8p

 

Crush lvl 2 - (12/2) 6p

 

This is 55 points taken up, but I have enough mods to level up Quick Rest to level 5 (+2p) and Flow to level 4 (+3). Why don't I? Because I also have enough mods to level up redirection 2 levels, which I want to do for Loki, and since the current game is pushing players towards a building a singular highly moded frame, this is what I want to do, but doing so causes me to lose out on leveling other mods.

 

Now, I hope you can understand the issue, this cannot wait, and there are many others like me that are in a similar situation. The issue is apparent NOW. I can't experiment with different mods, I'm stuck with these builds that I've committed to.

[Aerensiniac]

• Players must have multiple numbers of the same mod. Mods such as Serration could have as many as 4 or 5 different useful levels, thus resulting in players having to have 4 or 5 different serration mods to call upon. This is ridiculous in the current mod leveling system.

   

• If unfusion is allowed, no player is going to use it to make the correct build, with the knowledge that another frame could and does make the most of a mod being the level it already is at.

 

 

Nailed it pretty much.

I think the devs didnt really think that response through.

Albeit it could be that they are merely making a profit oriented decision here. After all, needing 3-4 flow mods ensures that you will be feeding mod packs from their shops.

350 hours game play here and 0 flow mods. At the same time, i kind of refuse to buy mod packs as a response to such underhanded business practices, but thats just me.

I have no problem imagining that there are those who will be buying mod packs.

[CaptMytre]

Nailed it pretty much.

I think the devs didnt really think that response through.

Albeit it could be that they are merely making a profit oriented decision here. After all, needing 3-4 flow mods ensures that you will be feeding mod packs from their shops.

350 hours game play here and 0 flow mods. At the same time, i kind of refuse to buy mod packs as a response to such underhanded business practices, but thats just me.

I have no problem imagining that there are those who will be buying mod packs.

 

To me, I think they are hurting themselves, since people won't buy new frames and weapons due to the issue of their current mods not fitting their new weapon/frames. People will slowly become bored of the game since the only thing of interest to them then is new maps/enemies and any mods that they can fit into their current build.

[BearlyKoalified]

1. I was being nice, if you're going to be a &#! about it I'll be a &#! back to you.

 

2. It's obvious you are not reading what I am saying or attempting to understand what I have said.

 

3. It will get implemented when it gets implemented, instead of just raging about it why don't you actually suggest a system as to how it can work with consequences, how players do it, what happens (ie the process) etc?

Edited May 12, 2013 by BearlyKoalified

[SilentCynic]

I won't touch those first two points, but I'm fairly certain he/she is, in fact, suggesting a system that will work better than what DE seems to have planned. Or, at the very least, referring to a previous suggestion made on the forums.

Edited May 12, 2013 by SilentCynic

[Worira]

He's reading what you're saying. What you're saying just happens to be wrong.

[CaptMytre]

1. I was being nice, if you're going to be a &#! about it I'll be a &#! back to you.

 

2. It's obvious you are not reading what I am saying or attempting to understand what I have said.

 

3. It will get implemented when it gets implemented, instead of just raging about it why don't you actually suggest a system as to how it can work with consequences, how players do it, what happens (ie the process) etc?

 

1. I'll list your points, to prove why you no longer have one. Just because I said you don't have one, does not make me an &#!. Just stating the truth. If you said the sky was a fluoro pink to fluoro green gradient, me stating that the sky is blue does not make me an &#!.

 

2. I am reading it, and had hoped that it was clear in my above posts and in the OP. I hope I've made it abundantly clear though now.

 

3. My point about the problem existing now was in response to this post of yours:

 

 

Considering it's a rather small thing considering the state of the game, not actually being 100% finished, there is still room for many things to happen. Whilst people will say that the process is annoying, there are many missions that you can run through and possibly even more to come that will reduce this annoyance down to nothing more than a 5 minute issue. Though at this point we don't actually know what the consequence is, the only 'consequence' is having a lower leveled mod and credits and mods/cores used to upgrade the mod. But what else? The defusion could very well cost more credits than a normal fusion. We just don't know and neither does DE, not yet anyway.

 

In my opinion, it's better to just ignore the whole defusing of mods since at this stage it's not really needed. If it's added then great, another optional thing to do. If not then does it really matter? If you're looking for something to do, why not run some missions and farm for mods?

 

I had hoped that I had made it perfectly clear that it is no "small thing". I cannot just "ignore the whole defusing of mods" and yes, a system IS needed. Yes it DOES matter, and no I'm not going to run some missions and farm some mods.

 

Why? Because I'm at the current ENDGAME. I have no reason to farm or get mods, because I have nothing to do with them. This post here of yours is one that clearly illustrates that you have no clue what I'm on about, this isn't a menial issue, but a game ender. I didn't see this issue until it actually happened to me, maybe that's why you can't understand, but once you get out of your relatively low tier mods, you'll see where I am coming from.

 

 

It is a players option whether they want to upgrade, swap, not use or defuse a mod. It is the players thought of "Shall I do this? Hmm, yes I shall." If they want to spend the credits and Mods/Cores to upgrade then they can. If they want to spend Credits? to defuse then they can. They know what will happen if they do so, (assuming defusion is explained or has some text explaining it).

 

It's up to the Player to decide what they want to do with their mods. Save them, keep them, sell them, upgrade them, defuse them, whatever.

 

With the option of defusing, it allows Players to take a step back such as if they had 1x Level 5 Serration and they wanted to level up a different rifle, they could return it to Level 4 and use it in that said weapon, providing it could handle 4 slots. The mod can still be returned to Level 5 at a later date. I do agree however with both DE and yourself in the part of defusing "What do I get?", as Scott said you are essentially destroying one thing to get another in return as is with upgrading, you are essentially destroying 1 or more things to get this. So, whilst defusing is the risk of losing what you earned, so is Upgrading in a sense. However, I do feel that there should be a chance to obtain a Fusion Core should you choose to defuse just so that there is potentially something in return, this Fusion Core I imagine would be either Common or Uncommon with a % based on the level of the mod you wish to defuse.

 

In the end; players are warned and it's up to said player to do what they want with their mods.

 

 

Point: You want players to think about their upgrade paths via the unfusing method, because it brings consequence to the game.

 

Counter-point: Via this method, it vastly lowers the reason to get a new frame, trying new builds and other experimentation because it is incredibly costly in both time and credits - beyond reasonable limits. FACT.

 

Why is it a fact?

It takes 512 Serration mods to get to Serration to level 10. That alone takes hundreds of hours of play, hundreds of thousands of credits. Now times this by however many mods you have. A new weapon comes out, would you risk the hundreds of hours of play, the thousands of credits earnt to see if this new weapon is worth swapping to. Would you risk it all? No, as the reward is marginal as stated below.

 

Point: You want consequences.

 

Counter-point: I agree, I love consequences. Day-Z is a great example, you risk it all ever time you play. What Warframe's system does, isn't a consequence system - it is a deterrent system, as stated above. The risk for reward is pathetically lopsided, since DE isn't going to make new weapons vastly more powerful than current ones, so any new weapon you buy is only at best going to be slightly better than your current one if you manage to get the correct build the first time, or possibly massively worse. To put this in DayZ terms, this would be like you risking going to the airport to search for specific gun that might spawn, and it is only 5% better than your current one. Not worth it.

 

I want consequences in Warframe, but not like this. Mods do not NEED it though, since it adds nothing to the game, only subtracts. It removes experimenting. Do you think the current Trinity + Paris Thunderbolt mod would have happened. No, because no ones going to risk 200+hrs and 200k+ credits to see if it is a viable build.

 

 

 

 

Now, I REALLY hope you can see what I'm talking about now, and that you really don't have a leg to stand on. This current and Unfusion system is only detrimental to the game, and I can't believe you can't see it yet.

Edited May 12, 2013 by CaptMytre

[3ntropy]

Just make it cost credits.  Throwing a limiter on a mod costs a certain amount based on rarity, starting level, ending level.  No fusion with a limiter installed, but no cost to remove.

 

Problem solved and you get an infinite credit sink for no further development effort.

Edited May 12, 2013 by 3ntropy

[BearlyKoalified]

"1. I'll list your points, to prove why you no longer have one. Just because I said you don't have one, does not make me an &#!. Just stating the truth. Stating that the sky is blue does not make me an &#!." That there, is being an &#!. I wasn't directly calling you an &#!, but I was implying it as your post indicated an '&#!-y attitude' and so does the one you just posted, some of it anyway.

 

"I didn't see this issue until it actually happened to me, maybe that's why you can't understand, but once you get out of your relatively low tier mods, you'll see where I am coming from." That is also being a bit of an &#! since you're assuming I have low tier mods and assuming I can't comprehend what end game is.

 

"I had hoped that I had made it perfectly clear that it is no "small thing"." If you look at what I actually said, "a rather small thing considering the state of the game, not actually being 100% finished". Warframe is still Open Beta, so right now, considering all things it is a small thing compared to other pressing matters such as fixing bugs/exploits and finishing more of the game itself rather than adding new features that DE may not have thought of previously, I'm not saying it will or won't get added, I'm just saying that there are bigger issues that mod defusion.

 

Now, to your first of 'my points'. "Point: You want players to think about their upgrade paths via the unfusing method, because it brings consequence to the game." Close, but no cigar. That is not my point, you're close though. My point was actually that I want players to think and consider their options not just the unfusing way. Since, everyone has to think what they want to do with their mods and frames. What do they want for their weapon? More damage? More Fire Rate? Etc. Since where's the customization in doing exactly what everyone else does with a particular weapon? So you were close to what you were thinking my point was.

 

"Point: You want consequences." Well yes, for something like unfusing there should be consequences in my opinion.

 

I do agree with that having multiple mods for each weapon is lame, I've had to sell quite a few recently or fuse them into higher leveled ones due to either not having a weapon associated  to use them or there were just too many.

 

Yes I see what you are talking about, you want to be able to maximize each Warframe/Weapon you have/can get without the need to grind, grind, grind and have wasted hours/money and the most efficient way without Mods taking the full force of being nuked (Mods could still take a blow in someway, just gotta keep that in mind).

 

I agree, I don't want to waste the time/money just for a better weapon that as you said may only be slightly better, but for now I actually don't mind because it gives me something to do - maxing the frame/weapon out that is, as I don't buy every single weapon and frame at once.

 

Such as, when I bought my Founders Package I didn't buy every single Warframe (with Plat this is), I bought the Female Pack (Ember, Mag and Trinity) but that's it. The reason as to why I haven't bought any others is because I want to build them, actually still have something to do in game sure it's a grind and a farm but it's something I am choosing to do, just like you are choosing not to level specific mods which is totally cool. And to me it would defeat the purpose of acquiring every Warframe and Weapon if I got them straight away.

 

Alas, we just have to wait and see what happens. DE will listen, I just believe they are focused on other things first and what they consider bigger things.

 

Especially with Update 8 coming out soon and then the whole mystery about 8.5 ...

 

 

[ZWarhammer]

Well if you want it to have more consequence then why not implement the underclocking system as mentioned above but add a overheat mechanic to the mods, like if you change the power level of a mod like 2-3 times i would overheat and only be half as effective for like 12 hours or so. 

[Shifty_Shuffler]

I agree whole heartedly. I was really surprised with the unfusing idea they came up with, just seems like a cop out way to do it. Plus no-one in their right mind would unfuse a level 10 serration. Being able to turn a mods power consumption and level down seems like the most reasonable method. I doubt it is as complicated as they seem to make it out to be. I am at that point where I don't want to risk upgrading redirection or vitality as I don't want to risk making them unusable, and in turn wasting a lot of time and effort it took to get them to that level.

 

We still need to see what happens with 'prestiging', as that will make life a lot easier.

[AXCrusnik]

I completely agree with OP. If the devs implement the "unfusing" feature it won't make any difference to me. As far as I'm concerned they might as well not even implement it

 

I am at that point where I don't want to risk upgrading redirection or vitality as I don't want to risk making them unusable, and in turn wasting a lot of time and effort it took to get them to that level.

I'm in the same boat with a handful of mods. Rarity doesn't help either, since I only have 1 of some mods.

[Timmuk]

Yes, I too feel as though the dev-proposed solution (de-levelling mods at the cost of your fusion materials) is quite punishing to those who wish to experiment, and doesn't in any way promote experimentation, something I felt was their key driving point for the mod-card system in the first place. It discourages people from upgrading their rank 10-able mods because there comes a point where it's likely going to be too costly to use in any build, which I feel detracts from DE's vision of ultra-customizability.

 

I can understand the need for there to be a cost involved when de-levelling mods, but by the sounds of it, DE's vision is a little extreme. That being said, I guess it's in their name, so..

Mastery Levels on Warframes and weapons (allowing you to select a few blank spots as poliarity spots) will go a long ways in making maxed out mods more usable, and will really add to both the power, and options you have on your builds

 

Right now you cant defuse a mod at all, so adding the option (even if you get nothing back) can only help people.....

 

and with what im hoping is that U9 will have the mastery ranks on warframes, this will really go hand in hand with more builds and options

[DarkLizalfos]

I can see Capt's point is that he worked hard to raise his mods to their current levels and lowering the level might erase his progression with them.

 

I am also seeing Bearly's point there. That in having an option in the first place might be better than being stuck with your an 11 cost Hornet sitting there in your card suitcase gathering dust. I do love having options and having optional options is always rad. As said, this is still a beta, everything is still on trial and subject to tweaking.

 

 Maybe we could ask for a semi-perfect diffusion in which all mods are returned.(not the credits) I wouldn't mind this feature since I could then focus on leveling the same number of Redirections as I have warframe slots. Instead of juggling 20-ish varying levels of the same mods between frames. So there's another idea.

[PositronicSpleen]

Could you explain the math?

 

It takes one duplicate for the first fusion level, then it doubles every subsequent level.

 

(Level n) : (# of mods to go from level 0 to level n)

0 : 0 = 1 - 1

1 : 1 = 2 - 1

2 : 1 + 2 = 4 -1

3 : 1 + 2 + 4 = 8 - 1

4 : 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 = 16 - 1

...

10: 1024 - 1

 

So for one mod at a given level n, you need 2^(n+1) - 1 mods, including the original.

If you want a Serration mod for every possible level -- 0 though 10 -- you need to add the costs: [1 - 1] + [2 - 1] + [4 - 1] + ... + [1024 - 1]

So to really have the freedom of using any level of Serration, you need... [2^11 - 1] - 11 = 2036 mods in total (remember the -1 from each term). This would be realistic only if we were discussing True Steel.

Edited May 12, 2013 by PositronicSpleen

[Judopunch]

I do understand what you are saying and you have some good points. However, I am not opposed to having duplicate mods at different levels. If a player would like to have lots weapons and warframes at that perfect custom balance, it should require a large time & resource sink.

Maxing out a handful of mods should not give you access to a arsenal of perfect weapons.

Exactly. Part of the replayability of this game is the quest for customization. Making it to easy removes part of the collection and exploration of this game. The question could be 'is it too hard to gather a good collection of some mods' (serration im looking at you) in order to reasonably have more than one or two of them.

[Geuax]

It takes one duplicate for the first fusion level, then it doubles every subsequent level.

 

(Level n) : (# of mods to go from level 0 to level n)

0 : 0 = 1 - 1

1 : 1 = 2 - 1

2 : 1 + 2 = 4 -1

3 : 1 + 2 + 4 = 8 - 1

4 : 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 = 16 - 1

...

10: 1024 - 1

 

So for one mod at a given level n, you need 2^(n+1) - 1 mods, including the original.

If you want a Serration mod for every possible level -- 0 though 10 -- you need to add the costs: [1 - 1] + [2 - 1] + [4 - 1] + ... + [1024 - 1]

So to really have the freedom of using any level of Serration, you need... [2^11 - 1] - 11 = 2036 mods in total (remember the -1 from each term). This would be realistic only if we were discussing True Steel.

close but wrong, good effort though

 

 

it's 2^n to get to and given rank n( [2^n]-1 for fusion and the original)

so 2^0+2^1+..+2^n= (2^n+1)-1, yeay for base 2 counting

Edited May 13, 2013 by Geuax

[KhanCipher]

I do understand what you are saying and you have some good points. However, I am not opposed to having duplicate mods at different levels. If a player would like to have lots weapons and warframes at that perfect custom balance, it should require a large time & resource sink.

 

i see the arguement against having high lvl mods being able to adjust their power level...  but on the flip side do you have any idea how much it takes to get a fully maxed +damage/shield/health in the first place?

[ZWarhammer]

I don't see any negative to this besides artificially extending the play time for the the player, i don't see most people going for collecting all these mods, most people will just quit the game when they see that they can only fit their mods to one or two frames and that's it what else they can do ?

Please don't be greedy on this devs and implement this idea <3

[ArsVampyre]

Take a look at the math involved.  Assuming you fuse only with like mods rather than unlike mods that take more...

 

Every level of fusion requires you spend the number of mods equal to what you've already spent.

 

Unranked is free.  Level 1 cost 1, level 2 cost 2 for a total of 4 mods, level 3 cost 4 for a total of 8 mods, level 4 costs 8 for at total of 16 mods...

 

The point being that defusing is exactly the cost of the original fusion up to that point in this senario.  You're better off finding the cores and fusing them to the lower level than you are defusing and fusing back up to the original level later.  That makes the entire 'defusion' process stupid and wasteful; no one will use it, and that makes it unnecessary work by the developers.

 

So, either do something non-destructive, or drop the whole idea.  What the developers are currently doing is flipping the bird at people who want to temporarily lower the power cost of their mods in exchange for lowered usefulness by saying "Sure, you can do that.  It'll just cost you exactly as much as if you did an entirely new one to that level!  Aren't we great?"

 

It's insulting to think we're that stupid.  The only possible advantage in defusing is that you could have the mod RIGHT NOW rather than farming for mod cards again.

 

DE does a lot of great things, but even the attitude toward this in the livestream put me off.  Its like Steve and Scott said "You want to have more ability to try new things?  We don't like that idea, but we want you to think we care, so screw you, here's a half-assed answer that doesn't work that will make us look like we're trying to do something when we're not." I'm sure that's not the impression they were trying to give, but what we're intending to communicate and what we do communicate are often different.

 

So please, Scott and Steve.  If you just don't like this, don't waste time doing it.  I'd rather you did nothing than do what you talked about doing regarding this, because at least doing nothing means you have more time to work on other things that might be useful. I just threw another $30 at you because for the most part I like what you're doing, but I don't like the way you're going with this, and it doesn't make any rational sense except as either an insult or a very poorly thought out idea.

 

Destructive de-fusion needs to be dropped.

[CaptMytre]

*Snip*

 

Much agreed, hadn't even thought of it that way. TBH, another point is that to have so many spare cards looks, to put it plainly, pretty damn ugly.