Kohm And Synoid, Being Over-Nerfed Is Better Than Being Over-Powered

[mishmashmarsh]

don't like it then don't use it. I hate Nerfs in this game it was so hard the get with the new syndicate system, it was harder to get then the boltor prime why wouldn't it be stronger than it if your doing something harder you deserve a better reward. I wouldn't mind but they take so long to nerf something so we all thing o ok its alright they haven't nerfed it in longer than a months I should but some forma on this to back it even better right? wrong because they wait and I hate that I had 6 forma on my synoid gammacor and it was my favorite weapon it looked cool and it was cool that's all I want a gun that looks cool and does good dmg but now it has one of the worse ammo consumption in the game 20 seconds of shooting and I have no ammo its even worse than the Dex furis. Please give me back my baby you killed my child ;(

[Antharis]

Supposedly Kohm didn't really get nerfed because it was considered overpowered, but because it was causing performance issues that no one on the forums seems to have been getting, even with old laptops. Sure, it had high potential dps, but due to it's spread covering 60% of the screen this potential was impossible to achieve without running into someone's face with it.

 

Synoid's strenght wasn't just an effect of having high damage output combined with great ammo economy but also also an effect of secondary weapons having significantly better mods than non-shotgun primaries with Hornet Strike giving 5% more damage per level compared to Serration and Barrel Diffusion + Lethal Torrent giving double the multishot a rifle gets with Split Chamber. Because of that secondaries tend to be highest dps weapons at any given time.

This is the biggest balance issue, primary weapon mods should be buffed in order to be put on par with secondary weapon mods. This alone would put some garbage weapons in the "usable" category and in my opinion should be done before any proper balancing can take place. This and doing something about Nullifiers, being able to pop their bubbles quickly is currently as important as DPS, which further limits the amount of viable weapons.

 

Either way, if new, decent weapons will keep getting overnerfed, people will just switch to the old god tier weapons that were left untouched. The result is worse than leaving them be, as the number of weapons that actually are viable decreases. Boltor P is now back to being the only worthwhile primary for general use, even though Kohm wasn't overpowered; compared to Boltor P it was better at clearing out crowds, while Boltor was better at taking down tougher single targets. Synoid needed a ~20% dps nerf with ~100% ammo consumption increase, not pounding it into the ground. The 7.5x ammo consumption increase it got is way too excesive.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Antharis

[JuanDeages]

It's damage is the same. 28 * 7.5 (change in bullets/sec) = 210, or exactly the same as it used to be.

 

You know what he meant. Damage per shot was nerfed, Burst DPS is the same, Sustained DPS was nerfed.

[LazyKnight]

I keep seeing people go on about how the Synoid is literally junk-tier and all that just because it has a base fire rate of 15 per second. That's a massive overreaction. If it were true, Amprex would be a piece of crap that nobody uses because it has an even higher fire rate on top of slightly less common ammo drops and the lack of a Primed Mutation mod.

Amprex can hit a room, and it's ammo consumption on a group is rather efficient. The piece of crap weapon to compare it to is Glaxion, waste so much ammo that it is a PVP weapons or low level only. People that want to argue that Glaxion is good need to use ammo mutation + ammo pads.

 

Synoid is one peg above junk tier, same tier as Akjagara. This tier is for weapons that have good on paper DPS, but using them for anything beyond an extermination mission is a costly waste.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

You know what he meant. Damage per shot was nerfed, Burst DPS is the same, Sustained DPS was nerfed.

That's basically a guarantee if ammo consumption is nerfed.

Edited March 21, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[JuanDeages]

That's basically a guarantee if ammo consumption is nerfed.

 

They could have literally just nerfed ammo consumption, or total ammo, or nerfed the damage per tick a bit. The changes were too much all at once imo.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

They could have literally just nerfed ammo consumption, or total ammo, or nerfed the damage per tick a bit. The changes were too much all at once imo.

It's fine to argue that (I havent' played with the changes obviously) but that doesn't change the fact that nerfing ammo consumption is a nerf to sustained DPS no matter what.

Edited March 21, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[NocturneOfSolace]

Let's think about the Kohm and Synoid Gammacor nerfs from a more logical standpoint, as opposed to the overzealous rage that is currently flooding the feedback forums.

 

Pre-nerf, the Synoid Gammacor had well over twice the DPS of the boltor Prime.

With both weapons at max DPS, the Boltor Prime has 41k burst while the Synoid Gammacor had 56k, so I guess it's not completely true. However, in the real game, sustained is the DPS you'll actually be doing, and the Boltor Prime has 23k while the Synoid Gammacor had well over double at 48k.

 

However, the Boltor Prime's DPS could be said to be even lower. The Synoid Gammacor could be modded for max DPS without ammo issues, but if you don't want to waste resources spamming ammo restores, the Boltor Prime needs ammo mutation. With ammo mutation, the burst becomes 22k and the sustained becomes 16k, both well below half the 56k burst and 48k of the pre-nerf Synoid Gammacor.

 

Now compare the pre-nerf Synoid's 48k sustained to the pre-nerf Kohm's 100k. It's easy to see why these weapons were nerfed. Their DPS was so apocalyptic that they made every other weapon in the game completely redundant. If you wanted to use a different weapon that suited your playstyle better, you were looking at having under a 5th of the Kohm's DPS.

 

You all say that the Kohm nerfs took away what made it unique and fun, but a crappy weapon is always preferable to one that makes everything else not worth using. I really don't get why people are mad about the Synoid Gammacor nerf, though. Once again, it was a weapon that made everything else redundant, but it didn't even have any unique mechanics to be taken away. It's still just as boring to use as it was before the nerf. And it's still a good weapon, It just actually has downsides now, which it didn't before.

 

Why are you people mad that the two most ridiculous weapons in the game got a much needed nerf? Do you want the apocalyptic DPS back? Do you want these two weapons to make everything other option pointless again? Are you mad that now you can use the weapons that suit your playstyle without massively decreasing your damage output? What is it?

 

Time to wait for the hate to roll in. I guess you people really hate good weapon balance after all...

There's nothing wrong with the Synoid post-nerf, if someone thinks it's 'overnerfed' that is a major exaggeration

The Synoid still does huge dps, the same amount, it was only overpowered because it had that and was also insanely ammo efficient

[shut]

Amprex can hit a room, and it's ammo consumption on a group is rather efficient. The piece of crap weapon to compare it to is Glaxion, waste so much ammo that it is a PVP weapons or low level only. People that want to argue that Glaxion is good need to use ammo mutation + ammo pads.

 

Amprex is of course more efficient than the Synoid against large groups, but a Synoid built with zero speed mods (LT aside) and Primed Mutation still deals nearly double the 1v1 damage of a standard no-mutation Amprex, and has flawless headshot capabilities on top of that. Replacing one of Synoid's elements with a speed mod will improve this even further, and considering the Primed Mutation, it shouldn't be any less efficient for players who know when they should and shouldn't be holding M1. In the end, we've got two very good weapons that are both very effective in different combat scenarios.

 

If you compare the Synoid Gammacor to crap like the Glaxion-- the weapon that has poorer ammo economy than both the Synoid and the Amprex AND has lower DPS than the Karak-- then you are being ridiculous. The Synoid is not a pea shooter. It is still very much one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and it is nowhere near the least ammo-efficient.

Edited March 21, 2015 by SortaRandom

[LazyKnight]

If you compare the Synoid Gammacor to crap like the Glaxion-- the weapon that has poorer ammo economy than both the Synoid and the Amprex AND has lower DPS than the Karak-- then you are being ridiculous. The Synoid is not a pea shooter. It is still very much one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and it is nowhere near the least ammo-efficient.

You were comparing a single target weapon to an AoE weapon, and that is a fairly absurd analogy. Would have been better to use Synapse, but it's beside the point, Synoid ammo efficiency for a single bullet is 28, not a single secondary that has lower than that is even viable without ammo pads. 

 

It is really one of the worst efficiency weapon there is in game. Try making a list of weapons that are worse than it, they are all weapons that are terrible. 

 

Edit: yes, Primary and critical hit weapons scale differently, you do need to bother writing a wall of text about that.

 

 

The Synoid is not a pea shooter. 

It is a pea shooter, by how they nerfed it. Sick of this propaganda equating DPS with damage per hit. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by LazyKnight

[shut]

 

You were comparing a single target weapon to an AoE weapon, and that is a fairly absurd analogy. Would have been better to use Synapse, but it's beside the point, Synoid ammo efficiency for a single bullet is 28, not a single secondary that has lower than that is even viable without ammo pads. 

 

It is really one of the worst efficiency weapon there is in game. Try making a list of weapons that are worse than it, they are all weapons that are terrible. 

 

Edit: yes, Primary and critical hit weapons scale differently, you do need to bother writing a wall of text about that.

 

Are you basing your argument solely on damage per bullet or something? By that logic, Ballistica would be one of the most powerful mid-tier secondaries and the Rakta would be a gamebreaker that's in desperate need of a nerf. You need to consider the base speed as well.

 

 

The Synoid, while obviously very inefficient in terms of damage:ammo, has a base speed that's high enough for it to top the vast majority of weapons in the game in terms of DPS. The biggie that sets it apart from other inefficient high-DPS weapons, though, is that the base speed isn't so high that the weapon's beyond saving with Mutation mods. Compare this to Wraith Twin Vipers, Akzani, etc., which have very high DPS but such poor damage per ammo (even without speed mods) that not even Primed Mutation can save them.

 

The Synoid's in a bit of a sweet spot in this scenario. It still hits like a truck. It's inefficient as hell, but it's still efficient enough to sustain itself with a Mutation mod if you know when you should and shouldn't hold M1.

 

 

It is a pea shooter, by how they nerfed it. Sick of this propaganda equating DPS with damage per hit. 

 

I don't understand your point here. If you're sick of the "propaganda" equating DPS with damage per hit, why is it magically a pea shooter just because they nerfed its damage per hit?

Edited March 21, 2015 by SortaRandom

[LazyKnight]

Are you basing your argument solely on damage per bullet or something? By that logic, Ballistica would be one of the most powerful mid-tier secondaries and the Rakta would be a gamebreaker that's in desperate need of a nerf. You need to consider the base speed as well.

We're talking about ammo efficiency.It is always about damage per bullet verse ammo used. Fire-rate is only relevant for a few weapons that will be consuming multiple ammo units per trigger pull, such as Kohm. It has nothing to do with best weapons or what is most powerful. Only issue is damage potential of shot.

 

If you want to bring into a discussion fire-rate and base speed it opens up the topic of expected ammo pick-up per minute. Ammo pick-ups are a major problem in this game. Considering that if takes you 30 shots to kill an NPC and you get back 20 you're going to go into deficit expenditure. If you want to make a long debate about this go ahead, but ammo efficiency falls off far faster than DPS (both sustained and burst) with scaling.

 

 

The Synoid's in a bit of a sweet spot in this scenario. It still hits like a truck. It's inefficient as hell, but it's still efficient enough to sustain itself with a Mutation mod if you know when you should and shouldn't hold M1.

Depends on NPC level. Such an annoyance. If the NPC's can be killed in 1/10s, it is not possible to run out of ammo with a mutation mods. This rapidly shifts to going out-of-ammo when it starts to need just 1 second on target. Only sniper ammo pick up from transmuting provided more ammo than expended to kill the target (This assume only fire rate mod used is lethal).

 

So it is balanced and it sweat spot is level 40-50 if you're using it.

Edited March 21, 2015 by LazyKnight

[shut]

We're talking about ammo efficiency.It is always about damage per bullet verse ammo used. Fire-rate is only relevant for a few weapons that will be consuming multiple ammo units per trigger pull, such as Kohm.

 

Then my point stands. By your logic, the Ballistica is a good weapon and the Rakta Ballistica is mind-numbingly overpowered. Clearly that's not the case.

Judging a weapon solely by its damage-per-ammo is an even crappier generalization than the ever-popular judging of a weapon solely by its DPS. You're going to have to take a lot more information into account than that if you want to have even a basic grasp of how effective a weapon is.

 

 

I totally agree, though, that enemy scaling is a huge factor in the effectiveness of inefficient weapons like the Synoid, and I'm completely with you regarding the Synoid not being efficient enough to hold its own in Wave 40 T4 Defense missions and such (at least, not without a good primary handy for while the secondary is on "cooldown"). Keep in mind, though, that the devs don't balance weapons based on infinite scaling. Our selection of weapons would be very different if they did.

Edited March 21, 2015 by SortaRandom

[(XBOX)ShygalSadie]

The Phage is a bouquet of laser rifles that uses shotgun mods. It is not a shotgun >:(

As for buffs, what if all shotguns had some form of innate punchthrough? I mean, the probably mostly just need a bit less reload time, but what if?

as a shotgun user im all for the innate puchthrough and less reload time

[(XBOX)ShygalSadie]

As much as i was all about making sure the synoid was balanced with everything else, i wanted to see everything else buffed, nerfs hurt a community

[Flowen231]

id just like a refund of my time, potato, and forma for my kohm honestly.

 

this is not the weapon i invested in anymore. this is some ammo consuming monster that i consider unusable.

 

id gladly revert it to unranked garbage if i could move the affinity and things over to something i still want to use.

 

 

dont mean to come off as adolescent, but i am pretty unhappy that i spent time and resources on something to have it turned into something i dont even want to own. 

I feel your pain man, but that's the nature of MMOs, when people b#tch, things change into garbage.

 

On topic, OP, the synoid does not have the same DPS as before. I believe you're for getting about sustained DPS, which was the DPS that people used the synoid for. I mean, the brakk does more burst DPS than the old synoid, people just used the gammacor because of the sustained damage. Lots of us invested time, and resources to optimize the gammacor, and it got nerfed to the point where we don't even want to see it anymore. I mean, some nerf was coming, everyone knew that, but now, this weapon is hardly viable in practice which is a problem since it costs 100k standing and ITS SUPPOSED TO BE ONE OF THE BEST IN THE GAME.

 

I understand why you like the nerf. And that's because you didn't use the weapon. Simply put, you use things that were not as good as the synoid, and even though that didn't affect you one bit (by that I mean, the existence of the synoid did not lower your overall performance in any way), you still complain that it was lowering you overall damage. Well news flash, it wasn't, your overall damage was not changed at all by anything other than yourself. Wanting to nerf something just because it performs better than what you have is an utter fallacy in a PVE game. By that logic, nothing should be stronger than a single lato. I mean the lato is a weapon too right? And someone has to like using it right? So everything deserves to be nerfed to the lato's level right?

 

Seriously, stop *@##$ing just because you are spiteful, use whatever you find to be fun, and if you don't want to see a certain weapon, tell people you recruit not to bring it. 

[LazyKnight]

Then my point stands. By your logic, the Ballistica is a good weapon and the Rakta Ballistica is mind-numbingly overpowered. Clearly that's not the case.

Judging a weapon solely by its damage-per-ammo is an even crappier generalization than the ever-popular judging of a weapon solely by its DPS. You're going to have to take a lot more information into account than that if you want to have even a basic grasp of how effective a weapon is.

No, you're missing my point, and logic, It has nothing to do with overpowered and the term is non applicable (stop using the term as this is a pass/fail benchmark). The issue is the ammo system in this game has an established floor of minimum ammo efficiency to not run out of ammo with perfect accuracy and fire control. 

 

If a weapon passes the requirement, it will never run out of ammo and it is equal to all others that pass. All weapons that recived a passing grade will never run out of ammo (assuming 100% accuracy) and everything would be balanced that received a passing grade. The weapons that fail, are all going to be ammo starved, and DPS will hit zero and no new ammo will be picked up, unless provided by an outside source.

Edited March 21, 2015 by LazyKnight

[f3llyn]

As much as i was all about making sure the synoid was balanced with everything else, i wanted to see everything else buffed, nerfs hurt a community

 

Well when your community is full of people who are happy others are upset their favorite weapon is destroyed...? Maybe the community needs to be hurt some.

 

Some people on this forum are so happy that other people are upset and I don't get it. I've never been one to revel in other peoples poor times.

 

For me? Use what you want, if you enjoy it. Don't use something if you don't enjoy it. I'll never scream nerf because someone is getting more kills than me. 

[FloraGreen]

Ppl were always like this, shotguns dmg falloff ruined shotguns for them, iron skin nerf ruined rhino, snow globe nerf ruined frost, blessing ruined trinity, damage 2.0 ruined acrid.

 

Give it 2-3 weeks theyll calm.

or have all left the game... which i hope. because DE does not deserve more money from them.

[shut]

No, you're missing my point, and logic, It has nothing to do with overpowered and the term is non applicable (stop using the term as this is a pass/fail benchmark). The issue is the ammo system in this game has an established floor of minimum ammo efficiency to not run out of ammo with perfect accuracy and fire control. 

 

If a weapon passes the requirement, it will never run out of ammo and it is equal to all others that pass. All weapons that recived a passing grade will never run out of ammo (assuming 100% accuracy) and everything would be balanced that received a passing grade. The weapons that fail, are all going to be ammo starved, and DPS will hit zero and no new ammo will be picked up, unless provided by an outside source.

 

Oh, you were saying that the damage:ammo ratio is solely what determines a weapon's efficiency. I thought you were saying that it was what solely determines a weapon's overall effectiveness, which was why I thought that was ridiculous. My bad xD

 

Yeah, I see your point here, and I agree totally. I guess my main point throughout the thread in regards to this is that the Synoid passes this minimum damage:ammo requirement as well, at least up to level ~50 enemies, and what makes it even better in actual gameplay than most other secondaries out there is that it dishes out its damage quickly (unlike weapons like Spectra, which, although just as efficient, aren't particularly helpful in high-level gameplay simply because of how long it takes to kill each enemy).

Edited March 21, 2015 by SortaRandom

[HandsomeSorcerer]

Well when your community is full of people who are happy others are upset their favorite weapon is destroyed...? Maybe the community needs to be hurt some.

 

Some people on this forum are so happy that other people are upset and I don't get it. I've never been one to revel in other peoples poor times.

 

For me? Use what you want, if you enjoy it. Don't use something if you don't enjoy it. I'll never scream nerf because someone is getting more kills than me. 

Its called Schadenfreude.

 

Its a term that describes people taking delight in the misfortunes of others. Basically, the losers way of envy. It means that most of the Warframe community is made out of losers that probably are picked on in highschool. The guys making the "Nerf" gammacor threads, and trolling about balance.

Edited March 21, 2015 by HandsomeSorcerer

[shut]

Its called Schadenfreude.

 

Its a term that describes people taking delight in the misfortunes of others. Basically, the losers way of envy. It means that most of the Warframe community is made out of losers that probably are picked on in highschool. The guys making the "Nerf" gammacor threads, and trolling about balance.

 

Whoa there.

[Camelslayer]

I agreed with you right up until this last bit. I'm with you 100% on the necessity of weapon balance, but I'm absolutely reluctant to upvote someone who's arguing on behalf of a weapon that he hasn't even tried post-nerf.

 

The damage was NOT touched. It still does 420 base DPS. Nothing has changed in that regard.

The only difference is that dealing your 420 damage in a second takes 15 ammo instead of 2.

 

1) Don't take this the wrong way, as I'm not to sound rude- but what makes you think I care about upvotes? Whether I make a post that gets zero or ten thousand upvotes- it makes literally no difference to me because it's not important.

2) I have tried it post-nerf. Please don't make assumptions. If anything, I see the damage/fire rate change as... pointless, I guess? I didn't immediately catch the fire rate increase until someone pointed it out. I am human, after all. Mistakes are inevitable.

3) It was, it's the DPS that's the same, however. Not that it makes a difference, though they probably should've explained how they altered it better- they merely said ammo consumption and ammo capacity, didn't mention anything about shifting around damage and fire rate. It's easy to see why people were confused.

 

I'm still mostly okay with the nerf, but they still do it in... weird ways, without explaining their reasoning behind it. That's what they should start doing, at least. I imagine people would be a little more chill with nerfs/buffs if there was at least some kind of thought process posted afterward.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Camelslayer

[shut]

1) Don't take this the wrong way, as I'm not to sound rude- but what makes you think I care about upvotes? Whether I make a post that gets zero or ten thousand upvotes- it makes literally no difference to me because it's not important.

 

I wasn't saying that to get some sort of indignant reaction out of you or anything. That was just me trying to emphasize how much I dislike seeing misinformation being spread around.

 

It's good to see that you've actually used the weapon, but your "90% damage reduction" remark on page 1 makes it look like you were saying that the Synoid now does ~40 DPS or something. There seem to be loads of players around the forums who still believe this, and I think that last remark in your post is being taken the wrong way by a lot of them. XD

Edited March 22, 2015 by SortaRandom

[Camelslayer]

I wasn't saying that to get some sort of indignant reaction out of you or anything. That was just me trying to emphasize how much I dislike seeing misinformation being spread around.

 

It's good to see that you've actually used the weapon, but your "90% damage reduction" remark on page 1 makes it look like you were saying that the Synoid now does ~40 DPS or something. There seem to be loads of players around the forums who still believe this, and I think that last remark in your post is being taken the wrong way by a lot of them. XD

Well you could've just said that. Certainly would've made more sense to me. XD

But, as I said, any confusion people have regarding it is understandable (myself included), as not explaining why the changes to something are made can easily lead to misunderstandings. It's one thing I like about League of Legends' patch notes (even if I don't play it anymore)- they give thought processes behind why decisions were made, and they'd point something out like this to avoid misunderstandings. Something DE could learn from a little more, though nobody's perfect.