Loki And Nova Are Too Op. They Must Be Nerfed

[JoMenton]

go take a cold shower first and come again to discuss

 

 

(this goes to OP my friend SIDESTRE4M)

 

 

Surprise, those with Nova avatars disagree. xD

 

 

What, you mean the ONE person here with a Nova avatar?

 

tsk tsk.

 

 

my comment was for OP 

[Kasumi-]

my comment was for OP 

My comment was for SIDESTRE4M.

 

Since it kinda felt like he was bashing.

[SIDESTRE4M]

A healthy meta can be achieved by more than just nerfing, though.

 

Balance is balance, it doesn't matter if you obtain it by nerfing, or by buffing, or by actually making the use of other frames desirable.

 

Adding a limit to the slow, or a timer on the disarm, won't stop people from using them anyways.

 

I swear, with some people, the first response is always just "nerf it" instead of "buff the weaker one". 

 

Unless you start packing all other frames with heavy CC so Warframe becomes a joke or the whole system gets reworked, I don't see how buffing all others will change the situation to a satisfying degree.

 

Edit:

 

My comment was for SIDESTRE4M.

Since it kinda felt like he was bashing.

 

Yeah yeah I'm sry, I got carried away a bit. Don't sweat it though, I actually don't mean those thing serious.

Edited March 24, 2015 by SIDESTRE4M

[Nemmerele]

So. If Loki and Nova are too OP for Defenses and Survivals, how about we nerf Mirage as well? Since her ulti, Prism, stacks rather nicely with Molecular Prime? Or how Vauban's Vortex works very well with a Speed Nova, maybe that should be nerfed too. Saying a combination of skills is OP is redundant, it's a pair of abilities, that merely mesh well. That's the point of teammates with skills of their own? How about everyone has the same skillset of four abilities, and they don't stack, and there's no point to each one being used together.

Alright. Here's another one. If you really want Loki's Disarm nerfed. Something that FORCES an enemy to drop their weapon to have a duration, how would you go about rationalizing that? Do the enemy's have to retrieve their weapons like WE HAVE TO?! You're insane. You're actually insane. This is a game based around teamwork, and Players Versus Environ/Everything. With a little Player Versus Player tacked on. How can any nerf that applies to the players' abilities, in a game that wants you to work together towards a common goal, be something you'd possibly want? Boring to have them there? Cool, don't use 'em, don't play with 'em. That's your choice. Please don't push your opinions on the playerbase because you like to get one-shotted by bullets that come in obscene quantities in Tier 4 Survivals and Defenses.

Here's another thing to consider. Nova's been nerfed several times already, and I've heard a lot of Nova players say that Nova is now a comfortable Warframe to use, even with her complex, yet equally powerful ultimate power. She's flimsy, a caster, and in trade for that? Her powers are in fact very strong, that's the point of her, and many other powerful frames.

Now let's go to Loki for a moment. What's the point of his Disarm you say with no duration? Well, what's the point of the Halikar wielding Grineer troops then? Their disarms don't have a duration, and if they did, everyone would cry bloody murder that they should be able to retrieve their weapons. Think of Radial Disarm as destroying their weapons entirely, rather than simply causing them to be dropped. It's also and ultimate, a final skill that makes the frame complete in it's niche. Loki is the great deciever, with a decoy, invisibility, the ability to swap places with a target, and a disarm, to remove any advantage a target might have over him in terms of firepower. What is he without that? An Ash, that's flimsier, and doesn't have a means to put out any damage, or any form of worth while crowd control with his skillset.

I'm a Loki player, but not a Nova player. I can reasonably saying that altering Loki's Disarm any further, would destroy his usefulness, and in fact make him unviable. You know how Excal's Radial Javelin is no longer radial? Yeah, that's the sort of worthlessness you would place on the Loki Warframe.

 

I realize there's a lot of hate from me in this, but think about it for a moment, and I mean really think about it. This is a game primarily about teamwork, and you want to remove the ability for some players to provide effort and effectiveness to their team. They feel Overpowered, but how can they really be when enemies scale endlessly, and get to a point where a single bullet can kill you? Or how the new Raid practically NEEDS a Loki or two in it so you don't get murdered instantly because a hailfire of bullets from level 70-80 mobs will kill just about anything that isn't Valkyr in Hysteria.

I'll leave you with this little idea. What if we removed the big gimmick about your favorite warframes, and made you deal with it, or proposed that your favorite warframes should have their uniqueness simply removed because they find them boring?

 

TL;DR Read it. I don't Too Long; Didn't Read S#&$.

 

People need to not propose nerfs that completely break warframes, or weapons entirely.

[SIDESTRE4M]

You simply lack vision.

 

How about Disarm doesn't disarm anymore but make their weapons malfunction like shooting gallery?

 

How about Warframe scaling is the root of this dilemma? CC frames are top tier for years because they scale better with infinity (lol)

[climatiseur]

It's true what someone said that really level 20-30 mobs are just babies and trivial content for any warframe....but once they get a bit tuff e,g, level 50+, then they do become a little more challenging. When they get really Tuff, level 100+ then no frames really OP.

 

The big problem with nerfing, is no matter what frame you nerf, there will always be another frame that is overpowered and "needs" nerfing. Once you nerfed em all into the ground...the next noob will pop up, look at all the frames, find one that they consider to be OP and the "nerf this" round starts again.

 

The one thing that ain't getting nerfed year on year though are the enemies!

 

endless missions have endless level scaling enemies.

 

The big problem with buffing, is no matter what frame you buff, there will always be another frame that is less Overpower and "needs" buffs. Once you buffed em all upto the heaven...the next noob will pop up, look at all the frames, find one that they consider to be not overpower enough and the "buff this" round starts again.

 

The one thing that they ain't asking for buffs are the mindless enemies!  

(Well, that's reasonable to call a match for them though)

[Bobtm]

A healthy meta can be achieved by more than just nerfing, though.

 

Balance is balance, it doesn't matter if you obtain it by nerfing, or by buffing, or by actually making the use of other frames desirable.

 

Adding a limit to the slow, or a timer on the disarm, won't stop people from using them anyways.

 

I swear, with some people, the first response is always just "nerf it" instead of "buff the weaker one". 

 

It's about outliers here however.  Loki has the ability to permanently render a majority of enemies a non-threat with a single cast of Radial Disarm.  There's no simple way to "buff the weaker one" here, as the weaker one is 90% of all other ultimate abilities.

 

Buffing things to whatever is currently strongest doesn't end well ever.  Focusing on the middle-ground in terms of usability is generally more appropriate when looking at these sorts of situations.

 

Adding limiters to these abilities shouldn't stop people from using the abilities in question of course.  Limiters don't happen to remove things from existence, they are added to reduce effectiveness.

 

To look specifically at the abilities noted in this topic, they do have some issues to a degree.  Nova's MP has already been tweaked once, and that was a very good tweak that reduced the cheese of the skill without making it useless.  However, it still can be a bit harsh at times.  Overall further nerfs to it need to be handled carefully so as to not ruin the skill in terms of true usability, but to limit its over-reaching effectiveness.  The simple solution would be to put a lower hard cap on its slowing power.  Of course I'm not going to stand here and say it's the only option or the best one, it's just the easiest.

 

As for Radial Disarm, it could (funnily enough) be givin similar treatment to what MP was given all that time ago when it was first reworked.  Having the skill radiate outward in a pulse would weaken it in a controlled way so that it wasn't an auto-invalidation button to all foes over a massive area.  At the same time that too isn't the only possible solution to think on.  It's just the easy one that jumped into my head at the time.  Since Loki can be invisible this wouldn't be a nerf that the player cannot counter.  Simply moving closer to threatening targets would ensure they're disarmed first and foremost.

 

Trying to give duration to Radial Disarm is a common notion, yet I don't see that as a viable solution in reality.  Seeing as it's quite conductive for players to already build Loki with high/max duration, the mods would still cause this variant of RD to be unbalanced.  If you go harsh on the nerf to keep high duration builds from lasting too long, then those builds become too needed to make apt use of the skill.  If you go too lenient on the nerf, then the ability may as well still have limitless duration.

 

There are more interesting ways to reduce ability effectiveness than to go with standard numeric nerfs.  This was proven with Molecular Prime's changes.  These are the kind of reworks that should be on the focus of players' minds.  It's safe to say that easymode things won't be a constant within this game, given the trends noticed over the game's development.  Nerfs are a part of good game development, so rather than always opposing them, players should be mindful of over-arching balance.

 

Creating an atmosphere where nerfs/buffs can't be reasonably discussed only means that less discussions are openly had about both of their occurrences.  These discussions are, of course, very important.  So folks simply need to keep an open mind, and not let bias cloud their judgement when "their baby" is looked at.  This sort of situation is the precise one that leads to the overnerfs that players all hate.  Since the vitriolic and/or biased nature prevents active discussions from having any meaning.

 

A nerf that makes the skill more interesting, but still effective, would be a good thing.  Yes, this means it would be less powerful, but games by definition have to have losing as a possiblity.

[-Sharpz-]

Loki and Nova too OP?  That's new to me.  I used Nova for a long time until they nerfed her.  I put her to rest.  RIP!! Nova.  Prime Nova is slightly better but she is glass and shatters easily.  People having to revive her constantly is annoying.  As far as Loki being to OP??  Where??? How???When???.  Please make sure you do your homework on these frames before you post.  I only wish Loki and Nova were OP.  That would be the bomb. 

[Eric1738]

yes they are OP. but DE doesnt dare to nerf them because they know those two are really really popular.(and dont tell me MP change was a nerf. if you are half decent, it is not a nerf) they only nerf frost and excalibur so less people would complain. serious though, even they are OP i dont want to see nerfs to them, DE should have realized that noboby likes "useless" frames, give everyone a niche. and leave the all-rounders alone. not everyone wants "top tier" "OP" warframes.

[letir]

Fair enough. Any mission with good Loki and Nova is boring like hell.

[MoyuTheTrinity]

Loki and Nova too OP?  That's new to me.  I used Nova for a long time until they nerfed her.  I put her to rest.  RIP!! Nova.  Prime Nova is slightly better but she is glass and shatters easily.  People having to revive her constantly is annoying.  As far as Loki being to OP??  Where??? How???When???.  Please make sure you do your homework on these frames before you post.  I only wish Loki and Nova were OP.  That would be the bomb. 

lokie can go invincible to a degree and run around striping the entire map of their weapons making them useless and with his new better then all the other augments augment his radial disarm becomes arguably the best skill in the game because now they also kill each other instead of attacking players further increasing his invincibility

 

I was nerfed into the ground many many items for being invincible and for using an defensive skill as an offensive one why can other support warframes be allowed to have fun and be op invincible destroyers if the one I play must be mundane and not a mass murderer

 

and why cant my Lex do 50k dps and why wont zepher be allowed to fly and the gun slinger warframe why does she aimbot instead of reward good gun play

Edited March 24, 2015 by MoyuTheMedic

[IShaco]

Neither of the abilities is overpowered. If you don't like them, don't use them. 

they are overpowered. and need a nerf

[FloraGreen]

Healthy Meta > Some people's fun ruined? Yes/No?

I have to agree to this for the PvP part of the game (for PvP in general)... but for PvE i couldn't care less about balance.

Ruining some people's fun means bad business.

[IShaco]

yes they are OP. but DE doesnt dare to nerf them because they know those two are really really popular.(and dont tell me MP change was a nerf. if you are half decent, it is not a nerf) they only nerf frost and excalibur so less people would complain. serious though, even they are OP i dont want to see nerfs to them, DE should have realized that noboby likes "useless" frames, give everyone a niche. and leave the all-rounders alone. not everyone wants "top tier" "OP" warframes.

i say yes to the nerf.  they nerfed theyre poster boy twice and you dont get more popular than that., so yeah, lets nerf something that is ACTUALLY overpowered

Edited March 24, 2015 by IShaco

[ThePresident777]

They are OP only in some people's imagination.  The rest of us deserve to have our fun too.  Which is why nerfs, buffs, and "balance" is futile.  It's all a matter of opinion, which is not universal.  There will always be people complaining as long as they all have to put up with the same S#&$.

 

What isn't futile is purpose and giving players with different a tastes a means to play the game without getting in each others way.

 

Incidentally, it's funny how some people are all "Leave my Volt alone.  I don't mess with your Warframe" when it's suggested that Volt is lame.  But, here they are in the nerf-nova-and loki thread trying to mess with other people's Warframes.

Edited March 24, 2015 by ThePresident777

[-Sharpz-]

Well why don't we just NERF everything? 

[SIDESTRE4M]

I have to agree to this for the PvP part of the game (for PvP in general)... but for PvE i couldn't care less about balance.

Ruining some people's fun means bad business.

Ruining the meta doesn't do less bad on the long run. And it doesn't matter if PvP or PvE. The effect affects peoples choices and personally I do care about the game more than about some people. The game needs to have a wide range of options for loadout or 90% of the items become obsolete the higher you want to go.

 

They are OP only in some people's imagination.  The rest of us deserve to have our fun too.  Which is why nerfs, buffs, and "balance" is futile.  It's all a matter of opinion.  None of it is universal.  There will always be people complaining as long as they all have to put up with the same S#&$.

Care to go into detail?

[NotoMaru]

Its not only Nova and Loki, there are other combinations which will work well for going easymode. And thats totally fine, noone is forced to go easymode.

I'm sure this has been stated in the same or slightly different way in the countless nerf-threads before already, sry but i couldn't resist this time.

We have the freedom to choose between OP (i'll call it easymode) or challenging mode. I like the different variations and possibilities to play the game. Its mainly not a question of OP, at least it depends on the players mood and communication between each other.

Sometimes im in the mood to go easymode in a defense-mission and it will be fun for me, sometimes im in the mood for more challenge so i'll ask my team for a different playstyle and different skill/weapon combinations and it'll be fun too.

There are so many ways to ruin the fun oder make gameplay boring for others, assume you're playing a stealthy extermination trying to get as many stealthkills as possible. Now someone joins your game and runs through the level killing everything so you won't be able to get your stealthkills. Does that make his skills/weapons/whatever OP? No!

That only means you have to communicate and ask those players to not ruin your style of gameplay, but the better option would be to make friends, ask people in recruitment-channel to join your gameplaystyle, use the invite only option etc.

Once upon a time Nova's MPrime was too OP, in a way that whoever shot the MPrimed enemy and started the chainreaction, Nova regardless got all the kills. That was a reasonable occasion to ask for a change/nerf but asking for a nerf because others made your mission boring isn't.

Mainly the only thing i can see behind most of those nerf-threads is trying to force other players to a playstyle what that person at the moment thinks its fun / non-boring.


Well, thats just my two cents about nerf this OP that threads.

Greets

[Bobtm]

They are OP only in some people's imagination.  The rest of us deserve to have our fun too.  Which is why nerfs, buffs, and "balance" is futile.  It's all a matter of opinion, which is not universal.  There will always be people complaining as long as they all have to put up with the same S#&$.

I see you're up to your usual acts  ^_^

 

Everything you've stated above there, aside opinions not being universal, is pure fallacy.  The effective usability of abilities is, while not numeric in general nature, something that can be quantified in other terms.  Just because it isn't laid out in an obviously and mathematical way, doesn't mean it isn't a hard fact.

 

Loki's Radial Disarm, in its current form, directly and immediately invalidates all but a few enemy classes in a single instant, a single cast, and over a very wide area, permanently.

 

Nova's Molecular Prime is in a better place overall than the above, as it isn't instantaneous, but it still has a bit of an excessive nature to it.

 

It's a waste of time to try and pretend otherwise, and it's actually detrimental to do so.  Like I said before, rather than creating a climate where balance can't be reasonably discussed, we're better off being civil and putting forth good thought into these issues.  Nerfing everything is bad, buffing everything is equally as bad.  Both of these things are opposite sides of the same coin that is good balance passes.

 

If we, as players, can look beyond out bias and think about these abilities as they truely are... well it'll likely have very positive results in the long term.  This is opposed to the situation which has befallen Excalibur for instance.  That's what we can expect if we needlessly clamor on about anti-nerf in a negative way.  It only leads to more negative events in the future.  If we can't talk about balance correctly then we're setting ourselves up for a situation where our feedback and ideas are ignored at large.

[Redhux]

[CapedBaldy]

Nerf the enemies' hitscan, bleed inducing, shield bypassing, knockdown galores, damage output, nullifier nonsense, bombard tracking, blind inducing madness, invulnerability phases and all then we'll talk.

[Redhux]

Nerf the enemies' hitscan, bleed inducing, shield bypassing, knockdown galores, damage output, nullifier nonsense, bombard tracking, blind inducing madness, invulnerability phases and all then we'll talk.

 

 

* Bombards SPAMMING Ogris *  Yeah that should be looked at ^^

[NEONOVUS]

Do you have a rift sigil? If not, then you do not get to claim OP stats on frames or heavy blades.

[climatiseur]

As people just brought up enemies nerfing - yes it is true. If the game needs to tune down, not only many frames but also many enemies and spawning mechanics needs to be tuned down.  It's just a vicious cycle - as some frames has powerful abilities to wipe up the map / nullify enemies completely , enemies needed to tuned up to call a match. As some powerful enemies was made, there needs to be another powerful ability to match up.... and it keeps going on.

 

It is how the game has gone out of control. We have overpower frames and overpower mechanics and (some, maybe) enemies, which cause many people freaked out when thinking about it.

 

Although, another reason is that people grow affection with some specific frames, which they don't want it "to be touched"

That's also why they will give arguments like "why would you want to ruin people's fun" , and "just buff other frames on par"

Because they assume the reason people calling a nerf is that their favorite is not on par with the concerned frame. Which I have to stress it is actually not the case most of the time.

 

 

 

Edited: Again , I want to say balance shouldn't be made on out-performing levels enemies EG Raids, escalating alert.

 

Because in this game, level goes up infinitely. You can not balance things base on infinity. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by climatiseur

[5H4DE]

Before we F*** aroud with warframes anymore what about this :

 

- Instead of a crapton of enemies that swarm like retards in front of you we get a lot fewer enemies but enemies that "think" , enemies that dodge , move around , hide better , are able and are more dangerous .

 

- Instead of leveling them to the point where an entire soma prime ammo goes away and doesent even scratch 10% of the targets hp what about making them more and more effective in combat ? 

 

- So instead of 100 mindless idiots swarming around you give us 10 elite enemies that are effective in combat . How do they change when the waves and minutes advance ? For the first X waves / Y minutes they gain extra health ( not armor not shields just health ) and extra dmg . After X waves / Y minutes they start becoming more effective in combat , they start to dodge better , aim better , hide and sneak around better , they become deadlier and harder to deal with without becoming @(*()$ adamantium tanks shooting super novas with each bullet .

 

 

Then we can consider dealing with OP warframes in a more accurate way against actual targets .