Defense 1-80 ~ Difficulty And Reward Scaling Proven To Be Completely Off

[Aggh]

Please quit derailing the tread and inciting a flame war with straw man arguments. Otherwise i will be forced to report you in.

Threatening to report someone who disagrees with you is one of the best ways to not be taken seriously.

[Gravefire]

Sure Aerensiniac.

[Aerensiniac]

Threatening to report someone who disagrees with you is one of the best ways to not be taken seriously.

Should i bother pointing out the difference between disagreeing and trolling? Like one involving arguments and the other involving the absence of them to cause deadlocks in the discussion?

[Aggh]

Should i bother pointing out the difference between disagreeing and trolling? Like one involving arguments and the other involving the absence of them to cause deadlocks in the discussion?

He makes some legitimate points that you have yet to disprove.  But hey, instead of actually addressing them, continue to get mad and threaten him.  That will work.

[Mietz]

I do not feel like verifying a thing for you Mietz.

 

 

If you refuse to support your arguments with evidence then we have nothing to discuss.

 

The fact you keep dodging a request for evidence is proof that you have none to present and are hence rambling on about something that is at best idle speculation, or at worst anecdotal experience.

 

The forum is ran for players, not people who waltz in here without playing the game once, just to then start asking for evidence on every claim because they havent made any experiences for them self.

 

 

The fact you are now trying to ad-hom me by implying I do not play the game only weakens your position of argumentation.

 

I do not shy away from presenting evidence that I, in fact, do:

 

 

 

 

And while 50 hours probably isn't comparable to your, impressive, 150+ hours (mentioned in another thread) it in no way invalidates my request for evidence when a claim is made.

 

Pretty much every other poster in the thread had no issues whatsoever with gasping what i am talking about and what i am basing it on. Only you.

 

 

Yes, the gamblers fallacy as well as confirmation bias is strong on this forum.

 

I am constantly running defenses up to wave 30.

The overall amount should be around 40. I have never experienced any form of loot scaling with difficulty and am constantly amused by the fact that im getting common skill cards most of the time from lvl 100+ enemies.

 

This is purely anecdotal.

Just because you do not experience something does not mean it doesn't exist.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

 

 

You can be the most unlucky player ever.

Out of the +17.000 concurrent players on steam each day, the people posting here make up an insignificant portion of the population.

 

Do you have evidence to support your claim that loot scaling does not exist for the other 99.9999% that do not post here?

 

Its really simple too, you just need to get people together, create a sample of ~1000 runs, write down the drops per wave-tier and hence you have actual numbers to present.

 

 

[....] if you have anything that refutes what i have said, please come forward and say it. If not, then be so kind and pester/troll others with your mental gymnastics till the point you get enough warning points for a ban.

 

I do not need to refute anything you said, because the burden of proof is on you if you made a claim.

The ball is figuratively speaking in your court.

 

 

P.S.: I welcome any arguments pro or contra, and encourage you to actually play the game and get an understanding what i am talking about and what i am basing it on.

 

I have 2 Warframes at 30 and run endgame content, including endless defense, regularly.

 

What I do or do not "feel" or "experience" about the rewards is irrelevant because I know that I am but -one- player out of potentially tens of thousands.

 

So are you, and so are the 10 people posting in this thread, attracted by the topic at hand, confirming their biases.

 

But I have already explained this in a previous post, which you summarily ignored and instead decided to pontificate at me and threaten moderation.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Mietz

[mmSNAKE]

Unless a dev comes out and says specifically how drop rates are affected via enemy level and waves the best you can do is a huge load of repetition.

 

Getting sound statistical data is difficult. Still between me and my friend we had about 1000 runs over the past week on Xini. Most of it was up to 15. The amount of rares dropped was about the same between each interval. If you want I can do some serious grinding and number crunching over the weekend and put some tests together to see approximately where the parameter is. Though honestly this isn't a simple test, because we don't know all the factors, unless devs come out and explain it.

[Aerensiniac]

If you refuse to support your arguments with evidence then we have nothing to discuss.

 

The fact you keep dodging a request for evidence is proof that you have none to present and are hence rambling on about something that is at best idle speculation, or at worst anecdotal experience.

Since you wish to play the intellectual on me, look up what appeal to probability is.

The fact that i deny answering to you could be that its because i cant, or for the same matter it could be that its because i do not intend to argue with someone who does its best to derail the topic by formulating fallacious arguments like "i have found a rare mod on wave one".

 

In regards of the rest of your post and basically every each post you have made in this topic: you keep on repeating one single argument, which is that i do not know the exact values for scaling.

Notice: You do not refute my argument, you do not post these values, you do not look for these values, you in fact avoid even trying to find out whether you are right or wrong cause you have found the most excellent trolling position in existence: A deadlock.

 

Past this you do not offer any information. You do not prove me wrong, you dont do a damn thing, just sit in a corner and tell me that i do not know for sure and thus eeeeeverything i say is to be disregarded.

I done enough rounds to have an understanding of the rates just like the rest of the topic's readers with the exception of you.

I have made a claim based on my experiences, which is completely open to disagreeing or refuting. You can disprove them with the exact values any time. As i have mentioned (ironically enough) this is what you are avoiding the most.

Instead, you toss in the great grail of implications, saying that you have found a rare mod on wave 1. As a conclusion i bet the rare drop rates are in fact 90%, its just that every each player is unlucky and is falling within that 10% cause we warframe players are like that. We defy math with our very existence.

 

So as a conclusion, feel free to contribute to the topic with something tangible.

Yes. That includes proving me wrong with the actual numbers.

 

He makes some legitimate points that you have yet to disprove.

Refer to above.

In the very specific case of severe autism, yes. He actually makes legitimate points.

 

He makes one single point, and he is actually right with it: I do not know the "exact" values.

Sadly this wont change a damn about the fact that we do not have a rare mod or resource rain.

Sadly this does not change the fact that level 80 awarded an uncommon.

Sadly this does not change the fact that i am getting common skill mods from level 100+ enemies

Sadly this does not change the fact that 5 round rewards are not completely random, nor scale

Sadly this does not change the fact that late 50-100 rounds offer nowhere enough rewards or reason to aim for them.

Sadly this does not change the fact that most players have the same experience.

 

So if we happen to disregard basically the entire issue, then yes. He is making a very legitimate and intellectual point.

I do not know anything, there are no trends, nobody can tell how drop rates work, we all are just imagining that scaling doesnt really work.

Yes. We are all suffering from delusions, except him and you. The guy who has found a rare mod in wave 1, and the guy who thinks that this is a legitimate point which i have to disprove.

 

At times like this i really just lean back and think about the concept of karma. What could i have done that i have been blessed with people like you guys. Am i really that much of an ***hole?

Edited May 11, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Aggh]

Since you wish to play the intellectual on me, look up what appeal to probability is.

The fact that i deny answering to you could be that its because i cant, or for the same matter it could be that its because i do not intend to argue with someone who does its best to derail the topic by formulating fallacious arguments like "i have found a rare mod on wave one".

 

In regards of the rest of your post and basically every each post you have made in this topic: you keep on repeating one single argument, which is that i do not know the exact values for scaling.

Notice: You do not refute my argument, you do not post these values, you do not look for these values, you in fact avoid even trying to find out whether you are right or wrong cause you have found the most excellent trolling position in existence: A deadlock.

 

Past this you do not offer any information. You do not prove me wrong, you dont do a damn thing, just sit in a corner and tell me that i do not know for sure and thus eeeeeverything i say is to be disregarded.

I done enough rounds to have an understanding of the rates just like the rest of the topic's readers with the exception of you.

I have made a claim based on my experiences, which is completely open to disagreeing or refuting. You can disprove them with the exact values any time. As i have mentioned (ironically enough) this is what you are avoiding the most.

Instead, you toss in the great grail of implications, saying that you have found a rare mod on wave 1. As a conclusion i bet the rare drop rates are in fact 90%, its just that every each player is unlucky and is falling within that 10% cause we warframe players are like that. We defy math with our very existence.

 

So as a conclusion, feel free to contribute to the topic with something tangible.

Yes. That includes proving me wrong with the actual numbers.

 

Refer to above.

In the very specific case of severe autism, yes. He actually makes legitimate points.

 

He makes one single point, and he is actually right with it: I do not know the "exact" values.

Sadly this wont change a damn about the fact that we do not have a rare mod or resource rain.

Sadly this does not change the fact that level 80 awarded an uncommon.

Sadly this does not change the fact that i am getting common skill mods from level 100+ enemies

Sadly this does not change the fact that 5 round rewards are not completely random, nor scale

Sadly this does not change the fact that late 50-100 rounds offer nowhere enough rewards or reason to aim for them.

Sadly this does not change the fact that most players have the same experience.

 

So if we happen to disregard basically the entire issue, then yes. He is making a very legitimate and intellectual point.

I do not know anything, there are no trends, nobody can tell how drop rates work, we all are just imagining that scaling doesnt really work.

Yes. We are all suffering from delusions, except him and you. The guy who has found a rare mod in wave 1, and the guy who thinks that this is a legitimate point which i have to disprove.

 

At times like this i really just lean back and think about the concept of karma. What could i have done that i have been blessed with people like you guys. Am i really that much of an ***hole?

It's a disprovable point though.  All you had to do was a bit of digging instead of lashing out at him :|

 

 

If you refuse to support your arguments with evidence then we have nothing to discuss.

 

The fact you keep dodging a request for evidence is proof that you have none to present and are hence rambling on about something that is at best idle speculation, or at worst anecdotal experience.

 

 

 

The fact you are now trying to ad-hom me by implying I do not play the game only weakens your position of argumentation.

 

I do not shy away from presenting evidence that I, in fact, do:

 

 

 

 

And while 50 hours probably isn't comparable to your, impressive, 150+ hours (mentioned in another thread) it in no way invalidates my request for evidence when a claim is made.

 

 

 

Yes, the gamblers fallacy as well as confirmation bias is strong on this forum.

 

 

This is purely anecdotal.

Just because you do not experience something does not mean it doesn't exist.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

 

 

You can be the most unlucky player ever.

Out of the +17.000 concurrent players on steam each day, the people posting here make up an insignificant portion of the population.

 

Do you have evidence to support your claim that loot scaling does not exist for the other 99.9999% that do not post here?

 

Its really simple too, you just need to get people together, create a sample of ~1000 runs, write down the drops per wave-tier and hence you have actual numbers to present.

 

 

I do not need to refute anything you said, because the burden of proof is on you if you made a claim.

The ball is figuratively speaking in your court.

 

 

 

I have 2 Warframes at 30 and run endgame content, including endless defense, regularly.

 

What I do or do not "feel" or "experience" about the rewards is irrelevant because I know that I am but -one- player out of potentially tens of thousands.

 

So are you, and so are the 10 people posting in this thread, attracted by the topic at hand, confirming their biases.

 

But I have already explained this in a previous post, which you summarily ignored and instead decided to pontificate at me and threaten moderation.

Or he could just pull up a dev post saying the best drop table is on level 20+ enemies.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/40537-fusion-moa-operation-leaderboards/page-2#entry390700

Edited May 11, 2013 by Aggh

[Mietz]

Since you wish to play the intellectual on me, look up what appeal to probability is.

The fact that i deny answering to you could be that its because i cant, or for the same matter it could be that its because i do not intend to argue with someone who does its best to derail the topic by formulating fallacious arguments like "i have found a rare mod on wave one".

 

"I have found a rare mod on wave one" is not an argument, it is a statement.

 

 

I have yet to make an argument concerning anything and I refuse to make any sort of argument without any data.

 

Data you still have not provided I might add.

 

 

You also might want to refrain from making any unsupported statements, because they are...unsupported.

 

 

In regards of the rest of your post and basically every each post you have made in this topic: you keep on repeating one single argument, which is that i do not know the exact values for scaling.

Notice: You do not refute my argument, you do not post these values, you do not look for these values, you in fact avoid even trying to find out whether you are right or wrong cause you have found the most excellent trolling position in existence: A deadlock.

 

 

In fact, that is, again, not an argument.

 

 

I have made a request for evidence and illuminated how the uncertainty of the missing data impacts your conclusions and statements.

I do in fact -not- try to avoid trying to find out if I'm right or wrong, thats is the -sole purpose- of my request for concrete data.

 

That I do not perform the thousands of manhours required to actually record the information required can hardly be held against me here.

Not to mention the burden of proof is still on your side for making the claim.

 

The audacity to call me a troll in this case is astounding as well, for a simple request for information and support of your claims.

 

 

 

Past this you do not offer any information. You do not prove me wrong, you dont do a damn thing, just sit in a corner and tell me that i do not know for sure and thus eeeeeverything i say is to be disregarded.

 

I done enough rounds to have an understanding of the rates just like the rest of the topic's readers with the exception of you.

 

I have made a claim based on my experiences, which is completely open to disagreeing or refuting. You can disprove them with the exact values any time. As i have mentioned (ironically enough) this is what you are avoiding the most.

 

Instead, you toss in the great grail of implications, saying that you have found a rare mod on wave 1. As a conclusion i bet the rare drop rates are in fact 90%, its just that every each player is unlucky and is falling within that 10% cause we warframe players are like that. We defy math with our very existence.

 

 

You -titled- the topic 

 

"Difficulty And Reward Scaling -Proven- To Be Completely Off"

 

Proven!

 

I am waiting on that proof.

 

-You- have claimed to have proof.

 

Show the proof.

 

What you have presented so far is so far away from proof that it is idle speculation, the antithesis of proof and evidence.

Do you understand the difference?

 

You just said:

 

He makes one single point, and he is actually right with it: I do not know the "exact" values.

 

Hence you have no proof, you have touchy-feely speculation.

 

You don't know the exact numbers, you in fact know -no- numbers because you haven't presented anything yet. You have not presented any methodology or calculations, you just posted a number and once asked for the -source- of that revelation, you retreated into fallacies and ad-hom.

 

All you have done so far is to use a lot of very colorful an classy rhetoric like implying I have autism.

 

Refer to above.

In the very specific case of severe autism, yes. He actually makes legitimate points.

 

But please, continue, this thread is certainly very educational for onlookers.

[theussr]

The numbers are guess work, but the game runs on RNG and that IS how RNG works.

ah, yes, the sum of drop chances I made up on the fly. but, hrmm, you see, who cares what the percentages are or should be, instead, allow me to make a post where I make up some numbers for you just in case you did not realize that these need to add up to a 100% chance to award loot.

 

stick my head into the toilet, flush and don't stop flushing. i am an actual knuckle dragging toungeslapping wunderkind

[theussr]

Yeah, I want a random rare mod I already have duplicates of as a reward for playing Shoot Hitscan Guns Into Defenseless Bullet Sponge Enemies for 4 hours. They should give your choice of weapon or warframe for that.

[Aggh]

"I have found a rare mod on wave one" is not an argument, it is a statement.

 

 

I have yet to make an argument concerning anything and I refuse to make any sort of argument without any data.

 

Data you still have not provided I might add.

 

 

You also might want to refrain from making any unsupported statements, because they are...unsupported.

 

 

 

 

In fact, that is, again, not an argument.

 

 

I have made a request for evidence and illuminated how the uncertainty of the missing data impacts your conclusions and statements.

I do in fact -not- try to avoid trying to find out if I'm right or wrong, thats is the -sole purpose- of my request for concrete data.

 

That I do not perform the thousands of manhours required to actually record the information required can hardly be held against me here.

Not to mention the burden of proof is still on your side for making the claim.

 

The audacity to call me a troll in this case is astounding as well, for a simple request for information and support of your claims.

 

 

 

 

 

You -titled- the topic 

 

"Difficulty And Reward Scaling -Proven- To Be Completely Off"

 

Proven!

 

I am waiting on that proof.

 

-You- have claimed to have proof.

 

Show the proof.

 

What you have presented so far is so far away from proof that it is idle speculation, the antithesis of proof and evidence.

Do you understand the difference?

 

You just said:

 

 

Hence you have no proof, you have touchy-feely speculation.

 

You don't know the exact numbers, you in fact know -no- numbers because you haven't presented anything yet. You have not presented any methodology or calculations, you just posted a number and once asked for the -source- of that revelation, you retreated into fallacies and ad-hom.

 

All you have done so far is to use a lot of very colorful an classy rhetoric like implying I have autism.

 

 

But please, continue, this thread is certainly very educational for onlookers.

Proof:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/40537-fusion-moa-operation-leaderboards/page-2#entry390700

[Flunky]

It's a CHANCE for greater rarity, not a guarantee.

I posted this in a different thread:

There are multiple lists of items to be given to the player. Common, Uncommon, Rare.

At Wave 5, it's probably something like this.

Common: 90%

Uncommon: 7.5%

Rare: 2.5%

At Wave 10.

Common 85%

Uncommon 10%

Rare 5%

At Wave 45

Common 70%

Uncommon 20%

Rare 10%

Or something like that.

Uncommon might be around 50% or so after Wave 20, so something like

Common 50%

Uncommon 40%

Rare 10%

That's how RNG works. You can always get S#&$ty rewards, at the highest of difficulties.

And you might just be lucky and get good rewards on wave 5.

 

this is a bunch of bullS#&$ that anyone who's played more than a few defense missions knows is wrong

[Flunky]

"I have found a rare mod on wave one" is not an argument, it is a statement.

 

 

I have yet to make an argument concerning anything and I refuse to make any sort of argument without any data.

 

Data you still have not provided I might add.

 

 

You also might want to refrain from making any unsupported statements, because they are...unsupported.

 

 

 

 

In fact, that is, again, not an argument.

 

 

I have made a request for evidence and illuminated how the uncertainty of the missing data impacts your conclusions and statements.

I do in fact -not- try to avoid trying to find out if I'm right or wrong, thats is the -sole purpose- of my request for concrete data.

 

That I do not perform the thousands of manhours required to actually record the information required can hardly be held against me here.

Not to mention the burden of proof is still on your side for making the claim.

 

The audacity to call me a troll in this case is astounding as well, for a simple request for information and support of your claims.

 

 

 

 

 

You -titled- the topic 

 

"Difficulty And Reward Scaling -Proven- To Be Completely Off"

 

Proven!

 

I am waiting on that proof.

 

-You- have claimed to have proof.

 

Show the proof.

 

What you have presented so far is so far away from proof that it is idle speculation, the antithesis of proof and evidence.

Do you understand the difference?

 

You just said:

 

 

Hence you have no proof, you have touchy-feely speculation.

 

You don't know the exact numbers, you in fact know -no- numbers because you haven't presented anything yet. You have not presented any methodology or calculations, you just posted a number and once asked for the -source- of that revelation, you retreated into fallacies and ad-hom.

 

All you have done so far is to use a lot of very colorful an classy rhetoric like implying I have autism.

 

 

But please, continue, this thread is certainly very educational for onlookers.

 

you have autism

[theussr]

interesting observation Gregio. I posted this in another thread

 

At Wave 5, it's probably something like this.
Common: 1488%
Uncommon: 23%
Rare: 100!!!!!!!%

At Wave 10.
Common 68%
Uncommon 1%
Rare 500%

At Wave 45
Common 69%
Uncommon 420%
Rare 1000%

Or something like that.

 

I just made these numbers up but in my experience this is pretty much what I've been seeing drop.
 

[Gravefire]

This is getting harder and harder to read. Honestly the RNG base for defense in my defense seems to be getting worse as we progressed. It felt like earlier on we got the rarer Mods and Blueprints.

[mmSNAKE]

Claiming actual statistics is pointless, but you can suggest frequency you experienced dependent on how many repetitions you made, and as well pool whatever your friends did.

 

I've done a large amount of Xini runs. I can't put a number on it because I didn't keep track. I have 320 some hours of play. I can't claim any sort of statistic, however I can say stuff that I'm positive. The awards for waves are messed up. Streamline, Heated Charge and Hellfire are WAY too common. I can't put a number on amount of runs I did but it's at least 500, perhaps more, at least half of my time was solely on defense missions. More than half of those rewards had those three awards (this is Xini only). The chances here are absolutely skewed. It would be nice to have a possibility to get other things, like multishot mods, or even some of the new mods just introduced.

 

Regarding rare mod frequency as opposed to enemy level. Out of play time I can say there is a difference but how significant, that I can't claim. If chances increase by a good increment the changes would be noticeable with fewer repetitions, however if frequency goes from 10% to 15% with 20 lv increase for enemies, it would take a very large amount of repetition and recording to establish this (these numbers are just example, I have no idea what the actual chances are).

 

Without a lot of us here estimating, arguing and clawing at each others throat, the best bet would be to ask DE how exactly it works. I see no harm in knowing this. This way we could give better feedback than guesswork.

Edited May 11, 2013 by mmSNAKE

[Gravefire]

mmSNAKE, on 10 May 2013 - 11:59 PM, said:

Claiming actual statistics is pointless, but you can suggest frequency you experienced dependent on how many repetitions you made, and as well pool whatever your friends did.

I've done a large amount of Xini runs. I can't put a number on it because I didn't keep track. I have 320 some hours of play. I can't claim any sort of statistic, however I can say stuff that I'm positive. The awards for waves are messed up. Streamline, Heated Charge and Hellfire are WAY too common. I can't put a number on amount of runs I did but it's at least 500, perhaps more, at least half of my time was solely on defense missions. More than half of those rewards had those three awards (this is Xini only). The chances here are absolutely skewed. It would be nice to have a possibility to get other things, like multishot mods, or even some of the new mods just introduced.

Regarding rare mod frequency as opposed to enemy level. Out of play time I can say there is a difference but how significant, that I can't claim. If chances increase by a good increment the changes would be noticeable with fewer repetitions, however if frequency goes from 10% to 15% with 20 lv increase for enemies, it would take a very large amount of repetition and recording to establish this (these numbers are just example, I have no idea what the actual chances are).

Without a lot of us here estimating, arguing and clawing at each others throat, the best bet would be to ask DE how exactly it works. I see no harm in knowing this. This way we could give better feedback than guesswork.

Well said good sir.

[CaptainSomalia]

At wave 5 More like:

Common: 95%

Uncommon: 4.999%

Rare: 0.001%

I'd say its more like this:

Streamline: 40%

Hellfire: 40%

Everything else: 20%

 

One of the best methods to farm credits currently is getting a group of people on Pluto infested defense and sound quaking every wave to wave 5 and then leaving. You will find that in doing this, you will get many, many streamlines, and many hellfires.

Edited May 11, 2013 by CaptainSomalia

[Jamesbiff]

is this just guesswork or can you prove that?

 

reaching wave 80 should damn well award you with a rare mod 100% of the time since it REALLY takes lots of time to get to wave 80 and a good team.

 

Nothing should guarantee you anything apart from alerts. As soon as you make one mode give you 100% chance of something, all other modes become redundant. Its bad enough that bosses are a guaranteed source of warframe blueprints rendering many missions squadless and making them grindathons with people ignoring 90% of the mission to get to the boss as soon as they can.

 

There does need to be a shake up, imo, with drop rates for certain mods/items/materials, but guaranteeing 100% drop rates for a specific type of mission is not going to solve the problem.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I don't think it is DE's intention to reward players with guaranteed rare items/mods for going further up the waves.

 

If they guarantee a rare item/mod at later waves, players who have fixed team/clan will likely own a lot more of these rare rewards than players who prefer to or can only play with random public players.

 

The current reward for going further up the waves is an intrinsic reward called "sense of accomplishment".

 

Psychological studies show that intrinsic rewards tend to motivate people better than extrinsic ones like cash, promotion or, in this case, rare items/mods.

 

The implementation of a leaderboards which I believe is soon to come is precisely anchoring on this concept of intrinsic rewards.

 

The reason some players seem so concern with their own stats screen, despite it not being viewable by any other people, is also related to this concept.

 

Anyway. by making rarity of rewards in increase over waves, you are indirectly excluding players who can only make it up to say 10 waves or so due to what ever reasons (no clan, no friends, like playing solo, don't have good enough equipment...) from being able to get rare rewards since the lower waves will have to be guaranteed to give more common rewards (otherwise all rewards will just be rare).

 

In other words, by doing so, these players will be forced to conform to a single method of play.

[TheaMatticks]

Something of note.  You DON'T lose all your drops on failing defense.  Or at least, you aren't supposed to, and I tend not to.  You keep all drops that you got up until the most recent opportunity for extraction.

 

For instance, if I failed at wave 67, I would keep all drops I obtained on wave 65 or earlier.  At least, this is what the wiki states, and it's what I've experienced myself.  I'm also not sure if it would work this way for materials, I've only checked for mods.

 

Also, while I'm completely indifferent, just wanted to point out, people saying wave 80 should have, say, a guaranteed rare, is not a guaranteed SPECIFIC rare.  There are many rare mods.  Being guaranteed to get A rare does not guarantee you the rare you want, and you're still going to have to farm for them.

 

edit: also @kenneth:  technically your stats screen IS viewable to other players.  Just right click view profile.  Not that it really matters, as it's mostly useless and pointless information.

 

@ aggh:  that has literally nothing to do with the topic.  Sure, level 20+ enemies have better tables.  Except the argument is about how higher waves should/shouldn't give better rewards.  I could start at wave 1 and have over level 20.  Note that that post doesn't say "higher enemies have better drops", just that enemies that are level 20 or higher have better tables.  For all you know, the drop tables from a level 80 enemy are identical to one from a level 20.

 

This topic is silly, although the streamline/hellfire skew is totally a thing, and it's also totally a thing that didn't start happening til recently.

Edited May 11, 2013 by therundown

[Aggh]

Something of note.  You DON'T lose all your drops on failing defense.  Or at least, you aren't supposed to, and I tend not to.  You keep all drops that you got up until the most recent opportunity for extraction.

 

For instance, if I failed at wave 67, I would keep all drops I obtained on wave 65 or earlier.  At least, this is what the wiki states, and it's what I've experienced myself.  I'm also not sure if it would work this way for materials, I've only checked for mods.

 

Also, while I'm completely indifferent, just wanted to point out, people saying wave 80 should have, say, a guaranteed rare, is not a guaranteed SPECIFIC rare.  There are many rare mods.  Being guaranteed to get A rare does not guarantee you the rare you want, and you're still going to have to farm for them.

 

edit: also @kenneth:  technically your stats screen IS viewable to other players.  Just right click view profile.  Not that it really matters, as it's mostly useless and pointless information.

 

@ aggh:  that has literally nothing to do with the topic.  Sure, level 20+ enemies have better tables.  Except the argument is about how higher waves should/shouldn't give better rewards.  I could start at wave 1 and have over level 20.  Note that that post doesn't say "higher enemies have better drops", just that enemies that are level 20 or higher have better tables.  For all you know, the drop tables from a level 80 enemy are identical to one from a level 20.

 

This topic is silly, although the streamline/hellfire skew is totally a thing, and it's also totally a thing that didn't start happening til recently.

It has everything to do with the topic.  He didn't say they have better drops, he said level 20+ enemies have the best drop table.   There is a difference.  In English that means that the drop tables don't get better past level 20.  This means the OP is essentially right and that higher waves do not give better rewards.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Aggh

[Aerensiniac]

It's a disprovable point though.  All you had to do was a bit of digging instead of lashing out at him :|

I did digging Aggh, in fact a lot of it, to the point where i simply went and created a thread, asking devs to tell or at least check whether the numbers are working as intended. They did not answer, and probably wont either cause these are the specific things that under circumstances can create an uproar amongst players.

 

I cannot tell him the exact numbers and he uses this a straw-man, as if he had completely disproved me.

That is not the case unless one wishes to imply that without a clock to know the exact time, one cannot tell day light from night, pm from am.

Similarly, i do not need to know the exact values to see the blatantly obvious: The current scaling does not prove any form of encouragement to go to higher waves.

Steve says 20+ for the best drop table. I say 20+ drop table aint worth the time that is invested in it, cause even at mob level 100+ im getting common skill cards most of the time.

 

On this note i have offered what i think are plausible solutions:

- It should be reasonable to at least scale the amount and drop rates of crafting materials. U8 is coming. Base building as a resource sink.

- Unique items/bp/cosmetics/colors/mission specific mods/whatever you want at each (example) 50-75-100 levels, to have a fix point to aim at.

- Or at least a piece of Steve's pink shorts once you hit wave 100

 

Finally in regards of Mietz: He might need me to prove my statement with exact numbers, cause he has made no experiences for himself and/or didnt play the game (he refutes this, but i cant really explain it otherwise, unless he is making a scene on purpose). Im sorry. I cannot give him the EXACT numbers, just as much as i cannot give him a piece of the sun to prove that its not just a glowing piece of coal as used to be believed in medieval times.

The devs do not answer questions in regards of the drop table, so we are left only to out own experience. Thats all i can say. Since the majority of the players agrees on the issue (even the creator of the stream who did 80 waves himself), i think that im not pulling things out of my *** here. At this point, i can only ignore Mietz cause he is set on creating a flame war.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Aggh]

I did digging Aggh, in fact a lot of it, to the point where i simply went and created a thread, asking devs to tell or at least check whether the numbers are working as intended. They did not answer, and probably wont either cause these are the specific things that under circumstances can create an uproar amongst players.

 

I cannot tell him the exact numbers and he uses this a straw-man, as if he had completely disproved me.

That is not the case unless one wishes to imply that without a clock to know the exact time, one cannot tell day light from night, pm from am.

Similarly, i do not need to know the exact values to see the blatantly obvious: The current scaling does not prove any form of encouragement to go to higher waves.

Steve says 20+ for the best drop table. I say 20+ drop table aint worth the time that is invested in it, cause even at mob level 100+ im getting common skill cards most of the time.

 

On this note i have offered what i think are plausible solutions:

- It should be reasonable to at least scale the amount and drop rates of crafting materials. U8 is coming. Base building as a resource sink.

- Unique items/bp/cosmetics/colors/mission specific mods/whatever you want at each (example) 50-75-100 levels, to have a fix point to aim at.

- Or at least a piece of Steve's pink shorts once you hit wave 100

 

Finally in regards of Mietz: He might need me to prove my statement with exact numbers, cause he has made no experiences for himself and/or didnt play the game (he refutes this, but i cant really explain it otherwise, unless he is making a scene on purpose). Im sorry. I cannot give him the EXACT numbers, just as much as i cannot give him a piece of the sun to prove that its not just a glowing piece of coal as used to be believed in medieval times.

The devs do not answer questions in regards of the drop table, so we are left only to out own experience. Thats all i can say. Since the majority of the players agrees on the issue (even the creator of the stream who did 80 waves himself), i think that im not pulling things out of my *** here. At this point, i can only ignore Mietz cause he is set on creating a flame war.

No need to wall of text.  You don't need numbers or statistics to prove that higher level waves aren't worth it when the drop table doesn't get better past level 20.

Edited May 11, 2013 by Aggh