Warframe Powers Shouldn´t Be Mods!

[Mietz]

i totally agree that too many modslots would imbalance/overpower certain warframes.

 

But don´t you think that there could be some middleground like making some mods more expenssive, i just think that as the number of mods is goin to increase the options for customization are gonna get more and more limited and some mods won´t be worth to take in your loadout at all.

like thiefs wit or marathon etc., but the most important thing in my opinion thing is that you shouldn´t be encouraged to give up your abilities. 

 

you should want those all the time, if some of them are useless right now, i think thats another balance discussion. i for one haven´t found an ability yet that i wouldn´t want in my loadout, simply because they are all fun to use and i dont wanna give up a fun ability in favour of health or some damage % only to make higher level enemys easier.

 

For the life of me I can not find a single mod that I consider undesirable in certain situations or missions.

 

All of the mods fulfill great roles, they just can't be equipped all at the same time without any downside.

 

When I farm mats, I put in Thiefs Witt instead of Sprint.

If I run Endless Defense against corpus I prefer to have Handspring because of clusterfucks of SMoas in Wave 15+

If I just want to farm some alert money I put in sprint, quick rest and marathon.

If I want to heavily use powers I put in Energy Efficiency and Power mods

etc.pp.

 

If the game had 10 slots available I could just slot everything and call it a day never once looking back at my loadout making the whole mod-system pointless.

 

Actually you can see the problem with Guns that essentially are able to slot all highly desirable damage mods at the same time, making choices for the weapon entirely meaningless.

I do not have to decide if I want Freeze or Shock on my Gorgon, I can easily have both maxed.

[r0ckwolf]

well.. you´re not wrong that it seems initially overpowering, but consider this: if the truly powerfull and rare mods like flow, focus or maxed tank mods would consume more energy, polarity slots would be much more valuable, so say a rhino with defense polaritys would truly benefit from the reduced energy cost of tank mods, while a volt for example would really need to make a compromise to put in one of these.

 

i´m not tryin to say that we should be able to put in all the mods we want and never think about it again, i wouldn´t like that either, at all! 

 

i just can´t help to think that the system could be improved, thats not to say that i don´t see the problems, yes the guns once fully modded get ridiculous (some of them, others don´t), but i would like to see more balance in that too, who is to say you have to use all of the potentially 10 slots, utility mods should be cheaper while power, damage and tank mods, should be more expenssive.

 

And it´s not like the energy amount would be doubled or anything, you spend 18 energy for your abilities, 18 devided between four mod slots (considering the abilities had their own section), isn´t that much, you would still have to think about what you use even more so when additional mods are being realeased. 

 

or am i completly wrong about this?? ^^ not sure anymore ?! :P

Edited May 10, 2013 by r0ckwolf

[neKroMancer]

well.. you´re not wrong that it seems initially overpowering, but consider this: if the truly powerfull and rare mods like flow, focus or maxed tank mods would consume more energy, polarity slots would be much more valuable, so say a rhino with defense polaritys would truly benefit from the reduced energy cost of tank mods, while a volt for example would really need to make a compromise to put in one of these.

 

i´m not tryin to say that we should be able to put in all the mods we want and never think about it again, i wouldn´t like that either, at all! 

 

i just can´t help to think that the system could be improved, thats not to say that i don´t see the problems, yes the guns once fully modded get ridiculous (some of them, others don´t), but i would like to see more balance in that too, who is to say you have to use all of the potentially 10 slots, utility mods should be cheaper while power, damage and tank mods, should be more expenssive.

 

And it´s not like the energy amount would be doubled or anything, you spend 18 energy for your abilities, 18 devided between for mod slots (considering the abilities had their own section, isn´t that much, you would still have to think about what you use even more so when additional mods are being realeased. 

 

or am i completly wrong about this?? ^^ not sure anymore ?! :P

 

I never see any games that allow player to run endgame/high level content with a non focused build before (at least in an ARPG genre). Most of them focused on player to make a meaningful, focused decision.

 

Take an example Diablo2 skill tree. What will happen if you play a barbarian and spread all your limited points in all skills you come across? You will be dead as soon as you play nightmare mode. Warframe gives us more freedom with slot/mod system which is actually better than most games. I think the 6 non-power slots is a calculated approach to be the most effective way to create depth (decision made by player)without much complexity (game's rules). And yes, you're right. More slots will dilute your mod potency and effectively kill you in a long run.

 

Weapon mod capacity seems to be overwhelming. It's like that for a reason. Player can compensate the lack of durability through high DPS and TTK. Better TTK means you'r taking less damage = less durability required = less or no mod capacity invested in this aspect for frame.

 

From the livestream, DE appeared to be more oldschool gamer - they believe in decision with consequence. Limited slots and mod capacity reflect their idea in this matter. They are asking the player to make a decision and take responsibility for said decision. I love it. 

[Mietz]

I never see any games that allow player to run endgame/high level content with a non focused build before (at least in an ARPG genre). Most of them focused on player to make a meaningful, focused decision.

 

Take an example Diablo2 skill tree. What will happen if you play a barbarian and spread all your limited points in all skills you come across? You will be dead as soon as you play nightmare mode

 

You would be dead in Act 2 as soon as you get to the shock-beetles if you didn't focus your build.

 

WF is a lot less strict in that regard, also WF with the mod-system offers free respecs all the time, from mission to mission.

You try something, it doesn't work well, you slot a different loadout.

 

In D2 you had no going back. Put points into something S#&$? You need Jamella or you restart your character.

[Emotitron]

Stealing some ideas about how warframe mods work from Deus Ex and Deus Ex HR wouldn't be a bad idea. Mods specific to eyes, limbs, system, torso and such in combination with the open ended mod system as it is now could add quite a bit of diversity while also being aesthetically interesting.

A fully ala carte mod system isn't quite restrictive enough actually. Polarity slots are a step in the right direction though of forcing players to weigh more variables.

[Strill]

Abilities are one of the most fun and flavorful parts of the game, but sometimes the least effective.  By forcing players to choose between fun but weak active abilities and boring but powerful passive abilities, you end up effectively removing content, which is frustrating for players. Active abilities are one of the primary distinguishing factors between warframes, and diminishing that in favor of generic but mechanically superior passive mods makes the game as a whole more bland and generic.

 

Since players will inevitably focus towards the strongest options regardless of how enjoyable they are, the devs should endeavor to design the game so that the best options are also the most fun.

 

By segregating active and passive abilities, you keep interesting choices of which active and which passive abilities to choose rather than whether to use active abilities.  In this way you maintain the distinctiveness and variety of each warframe without detracting from the interesting choices presented by the mods system.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Strill

[Emotitron]

You would be dead in Act 2 as soon as you get to the shock-beetles if you didn't focus your build.

 

WF is a lot less strict in that regard, also WF with the mod-system offers free respecs all the time, from mission to mission.

You try something, it doesn't work well, you slot a different loadout.

 

In D2 you had no going back. Put points into something S#&$? You need Jamella or you restart your character.

 

I agree as well that some permanent choices would be nice. There is fun to be found in the stress of having to commit to something. Players always cry for more freedom to respec, but once given it - they often lose interest in the game. Lasting decisions pull people into games. No irreversible mind you, no one wants to have options taken away. Giving real lasting weight to choices though forces commitment and discourages frivolous gameplay.

[mogamu]

"Are You a Wandering Generality or a Meaningful Specific?" ~Zig Zigler

 

Limited slots for Powers, Abilities and Utilities force players to think of unique builds.  If you had 20 slots and no regard for energy use every Excalibur would be like every other Excalibur   I like the system the way it is now and I enjoy the fact that 2 very different versions of the same Warframe can be in the same match.  It's refreshing.

[Strill]

"Are You a Wandering Generality or a Meaningful Specific?" ~Zig Zigler

 

Limited slots for Powers, Abilities and Utilities force players to think of unique builds.  If you had 20 slots and no regard for energy use every Excalibur would be like every other Excalibur   I like the system the way it is now and I enjoy the fact that 2 very different versions of the same Warframe can be in the same match.  It's refreshing.

 

No one's asking for unlimited slots or energy.  They're just asking for separate slot categories for active and passive mods. The more active mods you drop in exchange for passives, the closer your Warframe becomes to everyone else, and the more generic the game as a whole becomes. If each Warframe has a baseline number of actives, however, then you get to see more variety.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Strill

[mogamu]

No one's asking for unlimited slots or energy.  They're just asking for separate slot categories for active and passive mods. The more active mods you drop in exchange for passives, the closer your Warframe becomes to everyone else, and the more generic the game as a whole becomes. If each Warframe has a baseline number of actives, however, then you get to see more variety.

 

I understand that, but think about this.

Lets say Excalibur has 4 active slots and 4 passive slots (example only).  If I wanted to only use Slashdash then other players using all 4 skills have a 3 slot advantage over me.  Take Ember for instance, I basically just use her to farm Xini and she is really good at that.  So, I equip one skill (fire blast) and then I load up the other slots on Defence and Energy usage mods.  Take this for example

 

1) FireBlast

2) Continuity

3) Range

4) Streamline

5) Shield

6) Shield Recharge

7) Damage Increase

8) Stamina

 

Now for me personally, being able to replace all those useless-at-the-moment active skills for much more useful passives is a lifesaver and gets me to those higher waves.

 

Ok, so lets say DE adds more slots so that you could equip nearly every skill you wanted.  Well, if that were the case why even have a "mod card" system.  It would be like every other skill based game like Torchlight for instance where you just stat available points into slots.  Every other game is doing that, WF mod system is unique and forces you to build something special and ufseful.  If I could just do whatever I wanted I personally would become bored with it.  Just my opinion though, but the mod system "as is" is what makes Warframe special.

[Thingofmyth]

It's funny, I feel like we already tried this and it was replaced... oh yeah thats right, pre U7

[mogamu]

And another thing, most lvl 30 frames only have a energy pool of about 200.  Even if you equiped all 4 actives you couldnt even use them all in a single energy pool.  25+50+75+100=250.  It doesn't even really make sense to carry around all 4 skills at all times.

[Thingofmyth]

And another thing, most lvl 30 frames only have a energy pool of about 200.  Even if you equiped all 4 actives you couldnt even use them all in a single energy pool.  25+50+75+100=250.  It doesn't even really make sense to carry around all 4 skills at all times.

I have 420 energy :D. just use flow and streamline and its more like 78+60+43+22=203 out of 400+

[Strill]

Ok, so lets say DE adds more slots so that you could equip nearly every skill you wanted.  Well, if that were the case why even have a "mod card" system.

Because you would be choosing between upcoming alternate skill cards, as people have mentioned before.

 

Furthermore you would still be choosing between passive mod cards.

 

 

 

Your ember build is a perfect example of underpowered active skills leading players to exclude actives in favor of mechanically powerful passive mods.  Most of Ember's active skills fulfill the same purpose, so there's little reason to have more than one.  That leads to more generic builds with few active skills, like yours.  

 

I don't think that taking away a warframe's primary distinctive features should be an optimal solution because it encourages less gameplay variety.  Even if players can customize their passive mods, the more of their actives they sacrifice to do so, the less distinct and interesting individual warframes become, which makes the game that much more generic.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Strill

[r0ckwolf]

Abilities are one of the most fun and flavorful parts of the game, but sometimes the least effective.  By forcing players to choose between fun but weak active abilities and boring but powerful passive abilities, you end up effectively removing content, which is frustrating for players. Active abilities are one of the primary distinguishing factors between warframes, and diminishing that in favor of generic but mechanically superior passive mods makes the game as a whole more bland and generic.

 

Since players will inevitably focus towards the strongest options regardless of how enjoyable they are, the devs should endeavor to design the game so that the best options are also the most fun.

 

By segregating active and passive abilities, you keep interesting choices of which active and which passive abilities to choose rather than whether to use active abilities.  In this way you maintain the distinctiveness and variety of each warframe without detracting from the interesting choices presented by the mods system.

I couldn´t have said it better, thats exactly why i started this Topic!

 

Let me add one thing towards the argument of the game becoming boring if you could include all passive mods you want. No one wants that, or is suggesting that. On the contrary, at the moment since you are able to remove your abilities you can pretty much pack all the powerfull passive boosters available in one frame, wich you ´re tempted to do in favour of an abiltiy like xcals superjump.

What i´m suggesting is an exclusive ability section, where you get to keep the one thing that distinguish the frames and a more balanced mod sections with a stronger focus towards the polaritys so certain builds are more usefull on certain frames.

[ZWarhammer]

True it would be nice to have your abilities as defaults otherwise you just changing suits not warframes.

[neKroMancer]

Useless powers are problem. However, limited slot number is another problem.

Do not confuse other forumers with these two separate matters. Ember and some abilities like superjump are known to be less useful than others. However, they don't add much to the limited slot argument since there are also other frames and powers that are more useful as well.

When you pack fully leveled mods into your frame, you barely have enough mod capacity to add all of them. Adding 4 more slots won't help any player unless DE decide to increase mod capacity as well.

So, no.

[TheJagji]

@OP: I think your missing the point of why the abillatys are mods. Part of the game is making that chioice. Do you take all your abilltys, or only 1? What extra things do you take? Do I really need x abillty over y stats? There is no meaning in haveing slots JUST for abillatys, NONE. And, infact, there is no need for them eather. Its great the way it is. It makes you think, and when you go in to a mission, the choice to take health over an abilaty can make a differnce. Its up to you how you use your cards.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

It is currently done this way to limit your characters progression.

 

The mod capacity is a way for the developers to not allow players to be overly powerful through the use of maxed out mods.

 

Currently, you only have a total of 6 slots to put anything you want.

 

If your suggestion is taken, you get up to 10 slots if you don't want to use any skills.

 

Putting in all the passive mods and using supercharged frames that have very high stats to begin with, coupled with fully maxed out supercharged weapons can lead to the birth of Superframe.

[Aldunari3]

Having abilities as Mods allows easy implementation of more abilities, which I am really looking forward to