Pvp 2.0 Feedback & Suggestions (U16.1.4)

[Dojutrek]

Disclaimer

This post is subject to my own opinion of PVP 2.0 play and what could be done to improve it. As such, It might contain a few biases and opinions on how PVP should change. This comes from my personal experiences of playing competitive and semi-competitive Tribes, Tribes Ascend, and Counter-Strike play (can provide references if asked). So, if you find something offensive to your own viewpoint or ideals, please use constructive means to accurately plead your case.

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As I’ve continued to play the new PVP 2.0, I have become disappointed with the abuse that the community employs to get ahead. I have been spammed down by Volt and Excalibur right out of Spawn, Burned by the way Flags are handled when trying to intercept a Flag Grab, been unable to down a fleeing Flag Runner due to Coptering, and the list goes on. Most of these complaints can be drummed up as my own rust showing and lack of game sense, but I can also say that they reveal potential problems or issues that can be abused by those willing to go too far.

That’s not to say that it’s all bad, I have seen great teamwork with Focus firing down a Flag Runner, terrific plays where Excal would stagger and the Volt would down me, a cooperative scene within the PVP community form, and a true drive to see PVP improve with every iteration. However, there are core problems with PVP that allow such abuse to occur and harm the good nature of what should be a fun addition. Without further adieu, I will get on to the meat of this post.

Energy/Health Spawn Locations

Personally, this is in a bad state right now as the locations are all over the map and being able to jump from Energy point to Energy Point in the mid-field is largely unpunished and unpunishable. Timing the Spawn of Energy and Health is already a thing, but it has become such a mainstay in the play styles for those who like to spam abilities that gunplay has fallen to the wayside in response for those players. This is plethora of spawn locations is compounding the mobility issues as players can just move between points with relative ease until it’s time to release their Ultimate Skill.

Redistribute Energy/Health Spawn Points to Spawn locations (i.e. Spawn pads)

 

Keeping Energy and Health out of the Mid-field will potentially help the issues with 4th ability Spam and Elusive combat practices. By moving them into and onto where players spawn, they have an instant gain of Energy in response to spawn camping and an invulnerability time which prevents the overall spawn killing of the player for the time it is applied.

Conveniently, this allows for Energy Denial by the opposing team when the Energy does eventually spawn again, but it has the potential to be abused by the opposing team to lock down the other team. If so inclined it could be "Team Locked" thus only players of that team could obtain said Energy boon.

Equilibrium Concept + Enemy Kills = Combat Pack

Health and Energy should be obtainable via the same drop, this would give incentives for those who can survive long enough to kill their opponent and keep going. This also benefits interaction with the opposing team and in the case of a killstreak incentivises the use of Ultimate abilities. If included with the concept of Drops from Kills, this becomes a general improvement on survival in the heat of combat.

Abuse of this idea can happen, but it would require a member on each team working together. To offset this potential hazard, death could just eliminate all Energy currently in the pool and the "Combat Pack" only heals a set amount.

Defense against Flag Grabs

Standing on the Flag Stand and providing a defensive posture should be just as rewarding as going for the opponents Flag. As it stands right now, there are little to no responses to a threat of a Flag Grab. Killing the opponent might allow a general reprieve from the assault, but one good Coptering player later can easily make it a Benny Hill Moment. The amount of responses to an incoming Flag grab are too few to be worth Defending the flag for long periods or even short periods of time. Some skills to consider are Frost’s Snow Globe and, tentatively, Volt’s Electric Shield.

Snow Globe and Draining Stamina

This can rectify two problems with Defense, the first being Mobility Actions like Coptering and the second is give a defense against Melee weapons such as the Kogake. The inclusion of a stamina drain while an enemy is inside the globe will hinder escape attempts by coptering opponents and the slow mechanic will punish those expecting an easy capture. Keeping the Energy Cost at the same (50) should be enough to make it a mid to late game skill unless the player sacrifices for it.

Make the Cephalon’s Hitbox Smaller to allow Blocking

Standing in defense of the flag is important, whether it be on top of the Cephalon or near it. From my experience in PVP 2.0, I have seen that body blocking an incoming Coptering opponent does nothing and standing on the Cephalon has no effect on the radius in which it can be grabbed. Adding in a Body Block would give roles to tankier frames such as Frost, Rhino, and Chroma and incentivise the need of a Defender on point when things get hairy. This can be done by just reducing the radius in which the Cephalon can be grabbed.

QoL Utility Abilities

Utility is the main purpose of a lot of Capture the Flag, being able to stop a Flag capture or force a drop by the carrier is useful to those who like keeping the Flag on the stand or away from opposing hands. Some of these ideas can be applied to Frame’s abilities and others are already in the game, but could serve a tweak or two. I will though reserve this section for two such abilities that is dire need of a change and role in CTF.

Mag’s Pull

Pull is really important in the Mag Skill set, however it has an overwhelming potential to be used for a much needed role in CTF; Interception. When properly deployed on a Flag Carrier, it should stagger the Flag Carrier but it could also force a fumble of the Cephalon he or she is holding. This slight modification of a skill can give Mag an important role in CTF and for that matter similar skills could do the same.

Rhino’s Roar or Stomp

Rhino already had a nerf it deserved when it came to Iron Skin, but while that impacted his general survivability it shouldn’t impact his utility to the needs of the team. Thus, Roar or Stomp could be imparted with a Fumble effect similar to the above. When deployed, it would cause a knockdown and fumble of the Cephalon.

Coptering

At the current issue of Coptering, I will say that it does get quite annoying to fight against those who use it. While I use it myself when needed and feel it shouldn't be removed, I feel that it should have a consequence if used obsessively by a player. I have thought over the past week on this subject, both inside of matches watching the action take place and in my Liset. I have come to the conclusion that there needs to be some sort of “Limiter” on the amount of Coptering in order to make it more tactical in the field. Here I will include some thoughts in this and by no means should these be forced upon the player base unless found to be non-intrusive to the means of Mobility.

Self-Damage (a.k.a. “I bleed!”)

One such solution to Coptering is the idea of Self-Damage, it can be said that when one moves at that speed it wrenches the body causing a self-inflicted wound. This would remain until treated and continued use of the maneuver would cause enough damage to kill the user.

Stamina Limiters (Out of Breath)

Stamina is another factor that needs to be addressed, but it could also be used as a means of limiting Coptering. One such suggestion is a “Stamina Deficit” where the user overextends themselves and has to spend time to recover. This Deficit would limit recovery of Stamina until they stop using it.

Improving Visibility for the Cephalon

Sometimes it can be difficult to accurately determine during the battle who among the four opposing players has the Cephalon. Another concept that could improve gameplay, especially in capture the flag, is the inclusion if easy to understand visual cues to know who and where the Cephalon is going.

Visible Silhouette

Being able to see the Flag Carrier is important for overall battle awareness when on the offensive. Knowing where and who has the Cephalon at a glance is important, but sometimes they can hide or render themselves invisible by just putting a wall between you and them. As an improvement, there should be a visible silhouette around the Flag Carrier as long as he/she is holding said flag.

Light Trail

As coptering has been used and abused in the current PVP, so too has been the lack of information pertaining to where the Cephalon is going and how fast. With the addition of visible light trails to the Cephalon, one can accurately follow where and how it moves throughout the battlefield. This could be constrained to 10 or 15 meters in length to allow some leeway in the overall distance of the Flag bearer.

Dedicated Servers

Sometimes there is rage in these game modes and with that urge comes the inevitable need to quit before the match is over. However, currently a Host dropping out has drastic consequences for both the opposing team and their own. It not only robs the effort both sides put into the match, but causes unnecessary strife to the community when one stray player decides to just throw up their hands and quit. That’s why I feel Dedicated Servers should be important to maintaining the balance and needs of the PVP scene with streamlined gameplay and limited interruption.

Conclusion

In closing, there are other options and suggestions that could be posited to improve the Capture the Flag Gamemode and PVP as a whole than what I have here. I feel that some of these changes could greatly add to the overall gameplay, while others would be nice to have even if they aren't completely necessary.

EDIT: I will continue to update this post and subsequent postings with any new ideas to improve the PVP and CTF modes.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Dojutrek

[Dojutrek]

<RESERVED FOR FUTURE ADDITIONS>

 

Flag Carrier

 

One thing that should be noted is that Flag Carriers can move and heal indefinitely. With Coptering addressed above, I feel the next logical step is to talk about Healing while holding the Cephalon. One of the things that could be addressed while running with the Flag is the need for healing after a painful Cephalon extraction. This could be done in different ways:

 

 

Drop to Heal

 

A potential change could be that Dropping or Passing the Cephalon to another player, could be the only way to recover much needed health. This opens passing and play options to not only the flag bearer, but also allows the team to actively help the Flag bearer when he/she is in a much needed bind for life.

 

Edited March 28, 2015 by Dojutrek

[BluelitHalo]

I'm really liking the suggestions made for Cephalon Defense, making Rhino and Frost the perfect Heavies on Flag (as I've played that role in Tribes: Ascend like it was my job).

Coptering self-damage would probably be anti-fun by its nature alone, so limiting it through Stamina sounds a lot more reasonable.

Not only the Cephalon captor should be made more visible, but the Energy reserves of players should be made visible as well, via some glowing energy aura scaling in intensity, so that there can be proper responses and counters made to both captors and energized players with ultimates handy as well.

But as a competitive player, what's your opinion on adding cooldowns to abilities? It's been suggested earlier on these forums that it would encourage the use of well-timed and well-placed ability usage rather than spam. It sounds like a very good idea in theory, then Energy pickups can just become Health pickups, or Overshield pickups with a purpose akin to that of Armor pickups from Quake or Unreal Tournament CTF.

[Dojutrek]

But as a competitive player, what's your opinion on adding cooldowns to abilities? It's been suggested earlier on these forums that it would encourage the use of well-timed and well-placed ability usage rather than spam. It sounds like a very good idea in theory, then Energy pickups can just become Health pickups, or Overshield pickups with a purpose akin to that of Armor pickups from Quake or Unreal Tournament CTF.

 

As I see it and as you have said, adding Cool downs to already pre-existing abilities would help reduce the overall spam of the Abilities themselves and make them more tactical to use. However, given the nature of Warframe one can just run around and largely play a "Cat and mouse" game until the Cooldown is over, then come back into the fray with full power. It would need some other limiter, either in mobility or survival, as getting caught out when blowing skills isn't quite punishable yet.

 

As Energy goes, it's not the best system and is currently ingrained in the collective Warframe Psyche, but It does work and has it's limiters. From my experience it does limit the overall use of skills, but it suffers from the same problems as a Cool Down would where one could just play Elusive until they obtain enough energy to unleash again. The thing with Energy though, from my experience in PVP 2.0, is that it's not always there when you need it and that adds to limiting survival. (Side note: One of the reasons why Coptering is coming under fire.)

 

As for Overshield drops, I don't see a problem with adding pickups the game proper as it stands now. Essentially it's another healing item and has just as much bearing on combat as health and shields. It also would solve some mid-field Energy drops as they'd be replaced by Overshields. Sir, that's a decent idea.

 

EDIT:

 

As an Aside for Cool downs, another reason why they can be a problem is due to the time it takes to become active after use. The ability would need to cool down quickly enough to be relevant, but also have enough time to where it isn't being spammed into oblivion. What I'm trying to get at is there's a fine line to how it's balanced and if DE decides to go that route it would take longer to balance properly. 

 

This does however introduce the idea of timings and joint attacks with more than one player. So it could be decent, but time consuming for developers to get working properly. I'll leave you with that to ponder.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Dojutrek

[Guest]

I like your idea about flag carriers. It gives a balance for those who don't like to rush and prefer less heart-pumping gameplay.

 

However, I might disagree with you on coptering issue. I know it's annoying when you fight against players, who abuse it, but let's look at it from the other perspective. When you are alone and you have the flag in your hands, you have to fight your way and not to die until your teammates respawn. This's happened to me many times, so I consider coptering an escape tool rather something that we abuse. Of course you can increase stamina drain for this thing, it'd be the most convenient change.

[Dojutrek]

I like your idea about flag carriers. It gives a balance for those who don't like to rush and prefer less heart-pumping gameplay.

 

However, I might disagree with you on coptering issue. I know it's annoying when you fight against players, who abuse it, but let's look at it from the other perspective. When you are alone and you have the flag in your hands, you have to fight your way and not to die until your teammates respawn. This's happened to me many times, so I consider coptering an escape tool rather something that we abuse. Of course you can increase stamina drain for this thing, it'd be the most convenient change.

 

Oh, by no means do I feel that anything in the "Coptering" section is mandatory. They're mostly just asides I had when looking at the bigger picture of PVP 2.0 and pitching suggestions. I always feel to give even the worst suggestions possible as it paves the way for new lines of thought.

 

As I see it, Stamina could be a gating mechanism for Coptering and if one doesn't have enough they'd be in a serious bind. It's another resource to keep track of, but I feel it's a worthy one. 

 

Self-Damage was sort of coming out of left field, but again it's a gating mechanism and workable if so desired.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Dojutrek

[dceuxp]

What do you think of putting the flag on some sorta pedestal that the flag carrier will have to parkour up.

[Dojutrek]

What do you think of putting the flag on some sorta pedestal that the flag carrier will have to parkour up.

 

With Aerial Melee being a thing, the viability of having such a parkour mechanic isn't too hindering. Along the same lines, maybe raise the Cephalon Platform up a bit so it has a lip or stair to climb so you'd have to vault up and over to get at the Flag. Some stages would have you fly off the side if you're moving too fast attempting to bypass the lip.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Dojutrek

[Burnthesteak87]

Nice Topic, well written, structured and argumented.

Regarding the discourse about Flag Grabs, what if grabbing the Enemy Cephalon would enable traps around the area to make things harder?
Something similar to Spy 2.0 alarm traps.. Passages locking, freezing carpets from void, the Grineer electric traps, magnetic trapdoors, Corpus repelling lasers...
Sure, coptering and exagerated mobility won't be fixed soon, so the change can be done otherwise.
Do you find it something of any value?

Also, the cooldown on high damage skills seems to be mandatory and even if it would promote a "disengage, reset cooldowns and engage again" strategy it still would leave an occasion for opponents to fight back and a punishment for a miss or a bad use.
What about a 10 -15 secs cooldown on #1 to #3 skills and something like 60 to 120 seconds on #4?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Dojutrek]

Nice Topic, well written, structured and argumented.

Regarding the discourse about Flag Grabs, what if grabbing the Enemy Cephalon would enable traps around the area to make things harder?

Something similar to Spy 2.0 alarm traps.. Passages locking, freezing carpets from void, the Grineer electric traps, magnetic trapdoors, Corpus repelling lasers...

Sure, coptering and exagerated mobility won't be fixed soon, so the change can be done otherwise.

Do you find it something of any value?

Also, the cooldown on high damage skills seems to be mandatory and even if it would promote a "disengage, reset cooldowns and engage again" strategy it still would leave an occasion for opponents to fight back and a punishment for a miss or a bad use.

What about a 10 -15 secs cooldown on #1 to #3 skills and something like 60 to 120 seconds on #4?

 

On your suggestion about Flag Grabs, I will say that's an interesting idea. However, that takes a ton of the Agency that the players have in going after and getting back the flag. Traps and any other sort of Hazards only serve to reduce the urgency and threat of a Flag Capture, as the mentality would deviate to "There are traps, let them do the work." That might be good for Deathmatch and Team Deathmatch as that would add some random factor into how the levels are designed.

 

As for Cool downs, I think those numbers are fine. However, the more I think about it the more I think a Dual Energy-CD system might work out better. As Energy is already a limiter and powers are already overused, so having a CD on top of a power might work out better. However, the energy costs would need to be changed to match, like Radial Javelin would cost 75 or 50, which might pose a problem on chain spamming.

 

OR

 

Make all abilities Charge-based, where once an ability is expended that's it and the only way a player might get it back is to go for the enemies flag. This way, a player can't just kill everything without having some sort of plan and would be pretty gimped once expended of all powers.

 

What do you guys think? Would you like Charges? or what about a system where the Twin limiter of CD and Energy?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Dojutrek

[Burnthesteak87]

On your suggestion about Flag Grabs, I will say that's an interesting idea. However, that takes a ton of the Agency that the players have in going after and getting back the flag. Traps and any other sort of Hazards only serve to reduce the urgency and threat of a Flag Capture, as the mentality would deviate to "There are traps, let them do the work." That might be good for Deathmatch and Team Deathmatch as that would add some random factor into how the levels are designed.

 

As for Cool downs, I think those numbers are fine. However, the more I think about it the more I think a Dual Energy-CD system might work out better. As Energy is already a limiter and powers are already overused, so having a CD on top of a power might work out better. However, the energy costs would need to be changed to match, like Radial Javelin would cost 75 or 50, which might pose a problem on chain spamming.

 

OR

 

Make all abilities Charge-based, where once an ability is expended that's it and the only way a player might get it back is to go for the enemies flag. This way, a player can't just kill everything without having some sort of plan and would be pretty gimped once expended of all powers.

 

What do you guys think? Would you like Charges? or what about a system where the Twin limiter of CD and Energy?

About the traps I'd have them to spawn in the opponent map's half when their Cephalon gets taken, a sort of system lockdown to make things harder into capturing and escaping with it. Not defenses spawning around your base when you get opponent's Ceph.

Essentially, after you get the flag, you have to get out of the opponent's half through more obstacles than normal.

This, I think, would make things harder for the runner, given Warframes' extreme mobility, and a chance to the side which is losing their Cephalon to get back and defend before it's too late.

Now that I think about it, maybe it would imply a more defensive strategy, with 3 people bunkering in base and 1 quick capper going after the opponent flag. Can't say if it's gonna work. Expecially now that we don't have heavy CC warframes like Vauban.

Talking about Energy and Cooldowns..

Yay the Energy along with Cooldown was implied. In my hopinion it would be the best all around.

If I'm not wrong you are proposing that the only way to have your #4 back is to cap flags. This would give more emphasis to the objective thus promoting more strategy and to avoid a brainless spam.

That's an interesting alternative, but wouldn't then allow too much snowball to the winning side? If a side is meant to use all their #4 to kill the opponent flagger and to score a point to have their "cooldowns" resetted, what would happen to opponent's cooldown?

Shall them be resetted too? I think it would be fair to work like this.

 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Dojutrek]

About the traps I'd have them to spawn in the opponent map's half when their Cephalon gets taken, a sort of system lockdown to make things harder into capturing and escaping with it. Not defenses spawning around your base when you get opponent's Ceph.

Essentially, after you get the flag, you have to get out of the opponent's half through more obstacles than normal.

This, I think, would make things harder for the runner, given Warframes' extreme mobility, and a chance to the side which is losing their Cephalon to get back and defend before it's too late.

Now that I think about it, maybe it would imply a more defensive strategy, with 3 people bunkering in base and 1 quick capper going after the opponent flag. Can't say if it's gonna work. Expecially now that we don't have heavy CC warframes like Vauban.

Talking about Energy and Cooldowns..

Yay the Energy along with Cooldown was implied. In my hopinion it would be the best all around.

If I'm not wrong you are proposing that the only way to have your #4 back is to cap flags. This would give more emphasis to the objective thus promoting more strategy and to avoid a brainless spam.

That's an interesting alternative, but wouldn't then allow too much snowball to the winning side? If a side is meant to use all their #4 to kill the opponent flagger and to score a point to have their "cooldowns" resetted, what would happen to opponent's cooldown?

Shall them be resetted too? I think it would be fair to work like this.

 

 

Tricks and Traps are the name of the game sometimes in PVP, but the problem with what you propose is that the maps are clearly divided into Sun and Moon areas. I could see Sun effecting Sun's zone with Traps, but not so much Moon's area. I guess they could be lighter by the Flag Room and get progressively heavier as they get further toward the other side, as enemy fortifications would need to be equal along their borders (Flag > Light Traps > Heavy Traps < Light Traps < Flag).

 

An Aside for Traps, the one problem with the current maps is that they're so small in relation to a standard PVP map. CTF would need larger maps to host Traps or any sort of advanced methods of delaying an opponent. 

 

As for allowing the players to Bunker up and defend their Flag heavily, I don't agree with this as it prolongs games to some extent and if the other team isn't skilled enough they'd have a hard time breaking the defensive line. Stalemates would occur if the teams were exactly equal in skill and escape methods, but truthfully no team can be completely equal as Game Sense, Positioning, and overall Player Experience has a part in any competitive mode. Thus, going into a Bunker Strategy would be terrible for the match and the overall play of Warframe's PVP.

 

As for Team Strategy, I could see a two-two Tactic implemented effectively (Two Defenders, One Light Offense, One Flag Runner). As long as the Two defenders focus fire, they can melt targets pretty effectively. As for the Light Offense and Flag Runner, the LO would provide Distraction while the Runner comes in for the Flag. It's the most effective strategy with the current player limits in place. 

 

As for Flag Captures and getting back the frames 4th ability, yes that was the intent. It gives a massive choice in battle and has the player decide in a split second if launching their abilities is worth it, the whole Short term-Long Term concept. The abilities would sort of become like Grenades in Counter-Strike, where players would need to be accurate and try not to waste them. 

 

Grabbing the Flag would give a cool down reduction or charge for that one member of the team, but that would be only a short term gain as Guns/Melee are still as effective for dealing with opponents with their 4's. Also, having only one member of the team gain it back would add to the dynamics of Team play since Dropping the Flag could be an option for a key member to regain their abilities, albeit once until the player dies. Capping the Flag would only grant you a point, thus there would be a trade off for actually going for a full capture as you could also drop it and recharge/reduce CD's for the team.

 

As for Snowballing, I don't think it'd be a problem if only the one grabbing the flag would get the CD reduction/Charge. Plus, dropping flags takes time and risks a return by the other team. The risk would too great for a full team recharge as going for a recharge would be in the middle of combat and a push by the opposing team.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Dojutrek

[rockscl]

<RESERVED FOR FUTURE ADDITIONS>

 

Flag Carrier

 

One thing that should be noted is that Flag Carriers can move and heal indefinitely. With Coptering addressed above, I feel the next logical step is to talk about Healing while holding the Cephalon. One of the things that could be addressed while running with the Flag is the need for healing after a painful Cephalon extraction. This could be done in different ways:

 

 

Drop to Heal

 

A potential change could be that Dropping or Passing the Cephalon to another player, could be the only way to recover much needed health. This opens passing and play options to not only the flag bearer, but also allows the team to actively help the Flag bearer when he/she is in a much needed bind for life.

 

 

this can easily put a limit to the time a player can survive with the cephalon by himself, avoiding games determined by long chases, also encouraging teamwork, this should be implemented

Edited March 30, 2015 by rockscl

[Dojutrek]

this can easily put a limit to the time a player can survive with the cephalon by himself, avoiding games determined by long chases, also encouraging teamwork, this should be implemented

 

This is actually a direct and shameless pull from Tribes Ascend, a game I played Semi-Competitively.

 

This was in no small part due to the regenerating Health in T:A, as carrying the flag locked your health. Being unable to heal while holding the Flag in T:A was widely considered a heavy limiter on the Flag Carrier, the only way to heal was dropping the Flag and heading to a Resupply Station or picking up a "Nugget" (Resupply Pack) off of a fallen enemy with the respective perk. So it became common practice to drop the Flag to a teammate and go heal, thus facilitating Teamwork and Timing.

 

However, since Warframe doesn't have Regenerating Health not being able to pick-up Health Orbs, and eventually gain the effects of Healing abilities, while carrying the Flag is enough. Also, it makes them vulnerable when stopping to Heal, thus giving an ample opportunity to attack them.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Dojutrek