Please Remove The New Version Of Wave Dashing: Infinite Melee Slide Attack

[Brasten]

That helps. However I'm going continue to dispute limiting this kind of movement to only fast weapons.

 

I think Zoren Launching should be made an actual part of the moveset. I disagree that all weapons should be able to do it, although most of them should if it becomes an actual part of the moveset. 

 

While fast weapons do offer greater mobility on foot, we are talking about a mechanic for increasing travel speed across the board. This should not be related to weapon stats. None of the existing recognized alternate movements make that distinction. You don't wall run slower because you're packing a Fragor. You don't even Sprint slower. The only reason Zoren and other 'fast' weapons have any advantage in this regard right now is because this is a bug, it was not intended.

 

*Edit*

 

And as an additional point I just went and tried this method with with Furry boosted Fragor with its alternate model. I'll do a video a little later. Its not nearly as fast as the Zoren or other can get but, you can infinite chain spin-slide. So, ya. Zoren's really should not have movement mode advantage if this ever becomes a legit thing.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Brasten

[Maikky]

No .

[Blatantfool]

That helps. However I'm going continue to dispute limiting this kind of movement to only fast weapons.

 

 

While fast weapons do offer greater mobility on foot, we are talking about a mechanic for increasing travel speed across the board. This should not be related to weapon stats. None of the existing recognized alternate movements make that distinction. You don't wall run slower because you're packing a Fragor. You don't even Sprint slower. The only reason Zoren and other 'fast' weapons have any advantage in this regard right now is because this is a bug, it was not intended.

 

 

 I don't think it should be limited to only fast weapons myself, but I don't think it necessarily has to be open to all weapons. 

 

 It isn't unreasonable to set it aside and say "This is a trait melee weapons of X or Y category has."

 

 That just means you get to make a choice on what melee weapon you carry for a given Frame.

 

 But I do understand what you are getting at otherwise - you are right in that none of the rest of the movepool care what you bring with you.

[Excitonex]

 I don't think it should be limited to only fast weapons myself, but I don't think it necessarily has to be open to all weapons. 

 

 It isn't unreasonable to set it aside and say "This is a trait melee weapons of X or Y category has."

 

 That just means you get to make a choice on what melee weapon you carry for a given Frame.

 

 But I do understand what you are getting at otherwise - you are right in that none of the rest of the movepool care what you bring with you.

I agree with this. Fight now I wouldn't consider equipping most of the melee weapons, Zoren being one of them, if they didn't allow me to move faster than a Scindo. Increased movement speed is a feature of the Zorens in my mind and is the sole reason I have played probably 40 hours with them.

 

Please DE, don't remove this feature it is the only thing that makes some melee weapons worth using.

[Law_Abiding_Engineer]

What you talking about, Willis? Next you'll tell me there's a mod that increases run speed. Preposterous.

 

That doesn't even make any sense

[Brasten]

 But I do understand what you are getting at otherwise - you are right in that none of the rest of the movepool care what you bring with you.

I brought an unspeeded Fragor as well. Can still chain spin at goofy slow speeds and it breaks due to momentum loss at times. Again the only reason the Zoren have a bonus here is because of their stupidly high forward momentum boost off the spin attack. Something DE likely put in to make the lighter faster weapons look smoother and more logical on a single slide swing. Although technically that mass on the end of the Fargor should be pulling the spin around far faster when it gets pulled tight like it does.

[ausako]

<p>the only tripe is having to sprint and hold W everywhere...giving me slide jump allows me to get places when im tired of holding down the same button forever. either introduce 'always run toggle' or increase stamina use on slide jump if its really so important to nerf, running around isn't all that fun.</p>

[shukudai]

List it as a Utility Power or make it a universal aspect regardless of weapon?

 

The summery of things to 'fix' to make this a legitimate game play boil down to 3 things:

 

1) Needs to be independent of weapon

2) Address the extreme end of speeds achievable

3) The infinite chaining 

 

One thing I keep seeing from folks in favor push back on is removing the infinite chain spinning. I can't get behind that at all, you sure can't wall run forever without appropriate level design. If it's going to be an actual feature it can't be infinite. Eventually those momentum boosts should fall off without some kind of break in the sequence. Reducing the maximum speeds that have been shown, and requiring eventual breaks, would bring it more in line with existing alternate travel methods (slide flips and wall launching).

 

=====

 

Aside- I still think a spin-off Kart Race would be absolutely hilarious.

 

Why should slide flips and wall launching be infinitely doable (obviously if the environment permits, in the case of wall launching) but not slide melee?

 

Also, dual zorens aren't the best weapon for knifeskating, they give the best momentum boost but have the slowest recovery time between slashes.

[Brasten]

Why should slide flips and wall launching be infinitely doable (obviously if the environment permits, in the case of wall launching) but not slide melee?

 

Also, dual zorens aren't the best weapon for knifeskating, they give the best momentum boost but have the slowest recovery time between slashes.

For Slide Flips Speed is the key factor. You can't really go much faster then your normal sprint this way and that includes sleep cycles for stamina recharge. It's just a slightly more active, and in some case, tad faster way to move. You also can't really change directions while chain slide fliping without stopping and picking a new orientation. There are also some kinds of terrain features Slide Flips cannot handle.

 

Wall runs, are highly terrain dependent. If you don't have another wall in just the right place that's it, wall run over. The nature of the tiles basically self-limits this. It can be a very fast way to move with launching, although not always very accurate. Its not viable to Wall Run/Launch your way across the entire Dungeon. You can do it very well on some tiles, but not all.

 

The current melee slide/knifeskating is both very fast, chainable, and can handle just about any form of terrain. Which is bad. It does what the other two movement modes do, and better. It is also highly weapon dependent where the other two modes are not. If melee slide were put into a place between the 'rocketman' launch of wall jumping and the steady progression of slid flipping, that would seem to be a good home. No I take that back the melee sliding is WAY to maneuverable in addition to its speed and sustainability. 

Edited May 13, 2013 by Brasten

[aliasAnonymous]

I'd like to make a fresh point here. Chain slide slashing can be done continuously. But you can also chain forward flips, forward flips into air slashes, forward flips into kicks, double slashes...whatever modular combination of moves your heart desires.

 

Assuming the mobility granted by slide slashing is deemed unfit, how do we propose to prevent it without causing the fundamentals to crumble, and render all other moves much less effective.

 

Additionally, it has been brought up before, the chain slashing is a very suitable way to melee a group of enemies. How does one retain the potency of non-charge melee builds whilst removing chain slashing?

 

These are questions I cannot answer. I do not know the capabilities of the evolution engine, nor do I know the code that the developers have available to them, nor can I anticipate the computational complexity limitations of any proposed solutions.

 

But I can say, that chained moves should stay.

 

(Damn this post was concise but I thought of something else)

You can shoot while sprinting/wall-running, you cannot shoot while slashing. I don't really know how that should fit into the debate, but maybe someone else can use that idea to say something.

[TheDoctah]

I've only seen this once and it bothered me only cause he was killing everything well before I made it to the room that player was in. Having full sprint mods is one thing, but this bug or whatever is on another level. Not everyone wants to play with someone like that, I'm all for the idea of having a option where players can play with other players that want to run levels like that. I don't want people like that in the team I'm running with though, no offense.

[shukudai]

edit: this is in response to Brasten.

 

Fair enough, I see where you're coming from.

 

A tapering reduction would be a good compromise, and mobility players should always be looking to wall launch anyway, so it works into the meta well as a way to bridge the gap between areas without walls.

 

A curious question comes to mind - would the game be better for the fact that the best way to handle 90% of terrain be:

 

a) requiring the usage of an AT, or

b) requiring the application of Rush/Marathon/Quickrest, and then holding W+Shift?

 

There's arguments for both sides, and I think the implications of balancing for b) is actually significantly harder as it impacts many more related systems in the game than a) would.  One ugly path I can see it going down goes thus:

 

Modding = usage of points = opportunity cost of other mods = limitation of viable builds = hyper-optimisation = bread and butter "optimal builds" and lack of variety.

 

The same issue that players of D3 originally griped about, that at high level play you were shoehorned into using specific builds.

Edited May 13, 2013 by shukudai

[Brasten]

I'd like to make a fresh point here. Chain slide slashing can be done continuously. But you can also chain forward flips, forward flips into air slashes, forward flips into kicks, double slashes...whatever modular combination of moves your heart desires.

*****

You can shoot while sprinting/wall-running, you cannot shoot while slashing. I don't really know how that should fit into the debate, but maybe someone else can use that idea to say something.

 

A good point. However my rebuttal will kinda remain the same. Speed is the key. Look at all the other moves you can chain together, out of all of them the melee chain portions of it add considerably more forward speed then any of the other parts (especially ones done in the air). Even with an unmodded Fragor I can make good steady headway while chaining melees, and that's about as slow a weapon I can think of for this.

 

I can shoot in the middle of melee chaining. You just don't hit the melee button right away after putting on the crouch-lock. Just slide for a bit, pump off a few rounds, then melee-spin. With a quick reloading weapon you can even reload on the next slide.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Brasten

[W4RM4CHIN3]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/44282-i-love-wave-dashing/

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[aliasAnonymous]

Right. I'm not actually even sure you can shoot and sprint, it's been awhile since I've sprinted. I'm always doing a flip or wall jump or some such thing. So lets ignore my last aside. But uh, back to your point, speed.

 

I've done the scindo/fragor/gram chain thing, it really isn't as fast as you are implying oO lets stick to things we can agree on

And we can agree that you go super duper fast with any non-heavy weapon. And i agree that it can be abused. Mostly I use it to grab extra loot and catch up to the group, or go around and flank groups. I also agree that it is too fast. But if you kill the speed, you kill the slide slash's effective range. (don't you dare touch the range, I want to kill osprey's with air slashes till the day I die) If you kill the chain ability, you kill my soul. How to fix? =(

 

Stamina stamina stamina. right? That's all it needs, I hope. Make players pop a 7 or 8 point quick rest in. Speed is good, but you pay for it

A good point. However my rebuttal will kinda remain the same. Speed is the key. Look at all the other moves you can chain together, out of all of them the melee chain portions of it add considerably more forward speed then any of the other parts (especially ones done in the air). Even with an unmodded Fragor I can make good steady headway while chaining melees, and that's about as slow a weapon I can think of for this.

 

I can shoot in the middle of melee chaining. You just don't hit the melee button right away after putting on the crouch-lock. Just slide for a bit, pump off a few rounds, then melee-spin. With a quick reloading weapon you can even reload on the next slide.

[shukudai]

The ability to shoot/reload was the main difference between the slower wavedashing technique and the faster knifeskating technique.  Wavedashing allowed for more utility for less speed, whereas max speed knifeskating locks you into slash attacks.

 

You can shoot/reload while sprinting.

[Worira]

You can reload but not shoot while sprinting, actually. Firing while sprinting will drop you back to your regular movement speed.

[Chessalavakia]

It's amusing and fun but probably should be reduced or be removed in the future when more items are fully balanced.

[Luxangel7]

If you wish to claim victory by ending the argument prematurely, I'm afraid I'll have to protest. Just because you walked away doesn't mean you get the moral or intellectual highground. You win by proving the points wrong.

 

This is, in a few short sentences the core of everything wrong with your posts. I'm not trying to "win" anything. I made a simple, logical, personal opinion I have about this game known here on the forums. That's it. It's users like you and a few others that keep insisting that this is some sort of debate or contest where someone has to "win". Win what?? "Moral or intellectual highround"??? What the hell are you talking about??? Are you for real?

 

Look, if you have nothing better to do than write a thesis deconstructing every word I say any time I post something, all the while doing so with passive aggressive insults and purposefully ignoring and circling around things I say instead of addressing them in a hope to catch me in an aggressive rebuttal so you can claim "angry = wrong", then by all means, please continue to do so. But if you think I'm "claiming moral and intellectual highground" by "leaving" so I can "win" anything, you're in a whole world of your own. I just really don't care about engaging you in useless bickering.

 

It really boils down to: I don't like players being able to infinitely melee slide attack, from start to finish. You do. We both have our reasons.

 

Now two (rhetorical, please for the love of God, it's rhetorical) questions:

 

1) Do you really think you're going to convince me to change my opinion on how I prefer the game because of how you prefer it?

2) Do you REALLY think ANYTHING we say is going to make up the devs minds? Or is it more logical to think that the devs will decide what's best for their game regardless of who you think "wins" any argument?

 

Now after considering these two questions, if you still expect me to respond to your never ending posts that have absolutely zero insults, passive aggressive attacks, or baiting, then I'm sorry, call it whatever the hell you want, moral highgrounds, I'm just too dumb, unicorns are typing instead of me, whatever. I just couldn't care less. And in all sincerity, you shouldn't either.

[nanogenesis]

This is not Dark Souls.

[Luxangel7]

This is not Dark Souls.

 

Um...yes. Thank you...for...that.

[Brasten]

I've done the scindo/fragor/gram chain thing, it really isn't as fast as you are implying oO

A maxed Fury Brokk was faster then the un-modded running Rhino it was equipped to, so ya, it is as fast as I'm implying. It is faster then base Rhino. Almost any other weapon outside the heavies is going to be faster then that, so ya. Faster then a speeding Brokk. An un-modded Fragor, not so much. Had momentum problems.

 

The only viable fix I see that keeps this as something you can do is very heavy momentum fall off past the 2nd or 3rd slide. That would have to come before any chance to cancel the animation comes. Or a completely drop of the animation cancel and just lock people into the end of the animation. Like with the Fragor sliding, if you can't keep minimum sliding speeding you get kicked out of it and have to restart fresh, which would in turn break the most insane super speed slashing.

[Bakim0n0]

Remove this, make all the frames move the same speed, make all the melee weapons the same, give them the same stats and abilities and relabel the game "Boreframe"

Problem solved.

[Bakim0n0]

My last post or we could, you know, start another huge thread where this goes nowhere and we here the same arguments over and over and end up starting a new one. Either way.

[ROSING]

RyanGo:Personally, I felt a little irked when I was running with a rush modded Loki and some Excalibur was wave slashing next to me and moving the same speed if not faster. If wave slashing is the same speed for all frames then it sort of takes away the point of having frames with different speeds. Loki already sacrifices a lot of health and shield in exchange for power and speed.

But if wave slashing does depend on run speed ignore post :/ but I still feel wave slashing is a little silly, even if I might try it myself.