Please Remove The New Version Of Wave Dashing: Infinite Melee Slide Attack

[shukudai]

And that only matters to you.

People who dont care about speed or wanting credits NAOH are not loosing anything at all.

This "reward" is an illusion you folks fabricated and only affects you.

 

Everyone can get all the same items no matter how fast or slow you play the game.

 

It matters enough the DE are willing to set up their entire monetary stream on it.  How illusive is that?

[Luxangel7]

I like how the OP, after his last spurt of sensationalist vitriol on page 4, has entirely failed to reply to either myself nor bakimono's replies...  While at the same time berating others for not reading OP.

 

LuxAngel7, I have read all of your posts.  I have not misunderstood what you are saying.  

 

And mate, I've addressed the issue of macros.  They are irrelevant.  Plenty of others, including a community mod, have said so in this thread alone, and countless times elsewhere.  Please explain how you are finding it necessary to insist that this is a consideration whatsoever?

 

Self-proclaimed masters, yep ad hominem attack.  Didn't see that coming.

 

Emergent gameplay is often unintended.  "You have no imagination" and "you hate puppies", you're now putting words in our mouths.  I am glad you understand that such justification is based on intellect, however scathingly sarcastic you were in your delivery.  But given that a counter-point has been presented, do try to respond with more than a subjective opinion.  Being not in line with how the game should be played not only avoids the topic of emergent gameplay, but also sounds fairly dictatorial, does it not?  

 

Knifeskating doesn't cancel the need for stamina nor sprinting.  If you like reloading on the move at all, if you like taking out a room full of enemies quickly, your gun-and-run is still the way to go.  Ironically, if you wanted an example of an intended obsoletion of mods, just look at the mod point + polarity system.  Furthermore, at no point are proponents of mobility techs suggesting that they don't require balancing whatsoever.  We're simply suggesting there are better options than outright removal.

 

I'd continue, but I'm interested to see if you'll reply to these few points first.

 

Apparently you think that me posting in this whole thread revolves around you, that everything I said is directed at you, and me not replying in the thread within 2 hours = "I'm so ashamed now I'm hiding". Oh and let's not forget that gem "community mod agrees with me = I'm right".

 

I have nothing to prove to you, and stating several times that you want the OP to answer you as if this were some shouting match, when even the first thing you come out with is that everything I said boils down to vitriol, is nothing short of baiting for an endless argument or flame war. As if it weren't enough that you think someone saying "play by the rules" is dictatorial (lol rly?) your varied personal attacks guarantee that I won't engage you in discussion. Good luck baiting someone else though.

 

And I know you didn't mean it because you were just being passive aggressive, but I'm not your mate.

 

Edit: and when did "please read OP" become "berating others"? (your words) lol srsly

Edited May 12, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[Thypari2013]

So if I make the macro I found 1s ago with google available for everyone and everyone is sliding around at max speed, it is ok as well?

 

One for max-speed sliding (drains stamina)

One for little bit slower than max speed sliding (drains no stamina)

And one for ultimate sliding with dual Skana, Ethers and Zorens (more to come)

Edited May 12, 2013 by Thypari2013

[VarianStark]

Jesus Christ.

Maybe DE should just add bot-players so that everyone can play the game the way they want to in their own little sequestered cubicle.

 

Y'know, since apparently we can't behaving like f*cking adults.

[Vitriolic_Crux]

Just to add a little anecdotal evidence, I've played about 100 hours of this game so far and I've seen it done constantly by a single person. Everyone else I've seen that uses it has used it sparingly or just to catch up.

[Bakim0n0]

And that only matters to you.

People who dont care about speed or wanting credits NAOH are not loosing anything at all.

This "reward" is an illusion you folks fabricated and only affects you.

 

Everyone can get all the same items no matter how fast or slow you play the game.

Yeah... core mechanics of the game and the primary method of buying things in the game clearly only matter to me. If that's the case nothing needs to be changed whatsoever.

I guess credits, mods, exp are all illusions.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Bakim0n0]

I guess pay shouldn't be an issue irl either... since we can all eat no matter how much we work... Who wants to get paid more when I can work twice as long for the same rewards illusions?

[Mak_Gohae]

It matters enough the DE are willing to set up their entire monetary stream on it.  How illusive is that?

 

So ... you are saying that DE created a game just so people can rush through it?

 

 

Yeah... core mechanics of the game and the primary method of buying things in the game clearly only matter to me. If that's the case nothing needs to be changed whatsoever.

 

Getting it faster does not change the method of getting it.

No matter at what speed you go through it everyone is getting it the same way.

The cost is the same, the materials are the same, the time to build is the same. The speed of how you achieve that only matters to you and has no effect on any game mechanic to achieve a goal whatsoever. 

[shukudai]

Trying to make reaching claims that the only people that want or expect this unintended interaction to be fixed are unskilled or jealous does nothing but totally undermine any point you may be trying to make.

Anyway I don't greatly care either way because I mostly just play solo or with friends, but if you watch the latest livestream and listen to their reasons for removing wavedashing it is incredibly obvious that this will also be fixed for the various reasons they mentioned regarding wavedashing.

I believe the most important of these reasons is that it looks totally absurd in action.

 

It was precisely the reason why I asked the question, and the devs' responses were, frankly, a bit of a cop-out.  My question was also a bit mangled in its delivery - the version that Rebecca received in PM is as follows:

 

"Many players have been exploring Warframe's movement system and are finding things like wavedashing, knife skating, air zoren boosting and so on.  The community has been quite vocal, both for and against; some are saying these techniques are exploitative and look ridiculous, others are saying that they require skill and add depth to gameplay.  How do you guys feel about these emerging techniques, and what made you decide to remove wavedashing in particular?"

 

Let me break their response down. (http://youtu.be/SesYNaURgLw?t=11m55s)

 

Rushers - removing mobility techs will not "solve" rushing.

 

Aesthetically looked awful - animate it properly.

 

Macros - already covered in this thread.  Macroing mobility techs would render them unusable more often than not, and produce sub-optimal results.  Depending on terrain, your timing to maintain consistency fluctuates all the time.

 

Players being creative and working within the rules - all mobility techs can be executed employing nothing but Warframe code, a keyboard and a mouse.  I suppose hands are required.  But that's working within the rules.

[Bakim0n0]

 

Getting it faster does not change the method of getting it.

No matter at what speed you go through it everyone is getting it the same way.

The cost is the same, the materials are the same, the time to build is the same. The speed of how you achieve that only matters to you and has no effect on any game mechanic to achieve a goal whatsoever. 

You really either have no concept of reward or you're trolling.

If the speed in which things are achived by players has no effect on any game mechanic then why the heck is there so much complaining about players who want to go fast vs players who don't?

[Bakim0n0]

Serious question Mak_Gohae... If you get offered two jobs by similar companies, one offers you $5 / hour with a 40 hour work week and another offers you $10 / hr with a 20 hour work week for doing, effectively, the same job...

Which one offers you a greater incentive to accept the offer?

same concept in the game...

you can run one mission for 4k credits

or run 2-3 missions fast and have similar mod / exp and 2-3 times the credits...

Which one offers the greater incentive?

Like I and others have said, this game *rewards* rushing; at least for the filler maps.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Bakim0n0

[Mak_Gohae]

You really either have no concept of reward or you're trolling.

If the speed in which things are achived by players has no effect on any game mechanic then why the heck is there so much complaining about players who want to go fast vs players who don't?

 

The subject of that post is about the use of the money, dude, because i was replying to your post that was about the money. 

 

And just because you are not penalized because of rushing it doesnt mean that you are rewarded. Specially since getting money faster, like i mention in that post, does absolutely nothing to the mechanic that involves spending it.

[shukudai]

Thankyou for your reply.

 

"Apparently you think that me posting in this whole thread revolves around you, that everything I said is directed at you, and me not replying in the thread within 2 hours = "I'm so ashamed now I'm hiding"."

 

You're putting words in my mouth.  Having said that, over the course of 12 hours and several pages following my counter, there was no response.  I've not mentioned your demeanour; at best I've implied that you opted to respond to other posters over myself and bakimono.

 

"Oh and let's not forget that gem "community mod agrees with me = I'm right"."

 

I've clearly explained my viewpoint.  That a moderator, as an authority due to his experience and knowledge acknowledges its legitimacy is sound.  And you still dance around the topic.

 

"I have nothing to prove to you"

 

So you're only wanting to speak, not to listen.

 

"... and stating several times that you want the OP to answer you as if this were some shouting match..."

 

On the contrary, I've read through what you've written and responded succinctly to each of your points.  Hardly a shouting match.

 

"... when even the first thing you come out with is that everything I said boils down to vitriol..."

 

Putting words in my mouth again.  "Last spurt of vitriol", you even quoted it in your reply.  Not everything.

 

"... is nothing short of baiting for an endless argument or flame war."

 

Flawed assumption, flawed conclusion.  

 

"As if it weren't enough that you think someone saying "play by the rules" is dictatorial (lol rly?)"

 

Again putting words in my mouth.  The line in question is "Being not in line with how the game should be played not only avoids the topic of emergent gameplay, but also sounds fairly dictatorial, does it not?"

 

"... your varied personal attacks guarantee that I won't engage you in discussion. Good luck baiting someone else though."

 

Please provide examples, there is no grounding to your statement.  I'm not baiting, I'm willing to discuss the topic.

 

"And I know you didn't mean it because you were just being passive aggressive, but I'm not your mate."

 

I'm Australian.  We call everyone mate.

 

"Edit: and when did "please read OP" become "berating others"? (your words) lol srsly"

 

 

Round about the same time your finishing line in your response to fauxhb was actually "Read the posts, including OP."

[Bakim0n0]

The subject of that post is about the use of the money, dude, because i was replying to your post that was about the money. 

 

And just because you are not penalized because of rushing it doesnt mean that you are rewarded. Specially since getting money faster, like i mention in that post, does absolutely nothing to the mechanic that involves spending it.

So making more money has no effect on spending money?

[Cerenth]

What really annoys me about these kinds of topics is that the OPs usually have not considered two really important aspects of the subject that they are addressing: The cause behind the behaviour and the consequences of the change.

 

Please ask this question, "Why do people use this 'exploit?'"

 

Let us imagine a perfectly likely scenario. A Rhino arrives in a game and is joined by a Loki. The Loki frame has a much higher sprint speed than the Rhino. As a result, the Loki frame tears away ahead of the Rhino and races into the distance. The Rhino tries to chase the Loki to the objective and then to the extraction point. Along the way he never fires his gun once -- There's no enemies for him to fight. The Loki has engaged them first with his superior speed and dispatched them effortlessly. He arrives at extraction with 5 seconds on the timer. It's just him and the Loki in the game, so the timer started as soon as the Loki entered the extraction zone. He barely made it by the skin of his teeth. He gets into his jelly mold to the jeering snipes of the Loki frame, who in the lobby points out his abysmal kill score. The Rhino quits the session.

 

Is this fun?

 

Games are about having fun. In a game like Warframe, the unique fun comes from fighting enemies in your own style with your own frame with your own weapons. You level them. You put effort into them. You customize them the way you want to.

 

So how much fun did the Rhino have?

 

If the fun comes from all of the above, then the Rhino didn't get to have any fun at all. The Loki denied his fun by simply being fast.

 

This is a perfectly plausible situation, that I daresay a lot of people have actually encountered before. So what is the solution?

 

For an inventive player, looking for ways around such problems comes naturally. When such a player sees that Dual Zorens can improve their overall speed to the point where they can catch up to the Loki, they wouldn't hesitate to jump at the chance to level the playing field. Such an action is natural if the goal is to have fun. Eliminate the disparity between frames and the fun balance is restored as well.

 

That is why wavedashing and helicoptering are NECESSARY.

 

In an environment where there is a need for speed, such a boost is required to actually level the playing field.

 

And so what do you suggest, OP?

 

What are the consequences of your suggestion?

 

By removing the tools that restore the balance, you once again relegate slower frames to the back of the group. It doesn't matter if they can spring off walls. If they manage to beat you, you'll complain and have it removed. Literally that is your argument.

 

Rhino comes up with a wallrun route that allows him to overtake faster frames such as Loki or Ash.

Rhino should not be faster than Loki or Ash.

That is not the developer's intention and it negates the use of sprint mods.

Therefore wallrunning should be removed.

 

Is this not your exact reasoning?

 

So, what are the consequences of your logic?

 

-Slower frames are not entitled to fun. They should be slower than fast frames and not have a chance to engage the enemy.

-Any movement mechanics that allow slow frames to catch up should be removed from the game in order to preserve the validity of sprint mods.

 

It sounds ridiculous, I know.

 

That's because it is.

 

This whole topic is STUPID.

 

You make it sound as if these people have added something to the game that wasn't in there before. Have you considered that they have access to the same tools that you do? Have you tried to wavedash or helicopter yourself?

 

Have you failed?

 

I'm starting to suspect you have. For why else would someone take such offense to others overtaking them on a slow frame? Is it a problem to see a Frost whirling past you and leaving you behind, even after you put all those fusion cores into your own rush and marathon mods? Do you feel cheated -- that despite all your effort, someone found a better solution?

 

This may all be conjecture, but if I may summarize, just in case you are in this position that I have characterized:

 

Deal with it.

 

You got beat. Too bad. Learn to get good.

 

This is not your personal game. If you can point out why this actually impedes gameplay for the majority of people, then I'm sure the devs would probably consider your proposal. But if you're complaining because you feel cheated because someone is better than you, then grow up.

 

You may have realised that I'm a player that uses his Dual Ether swords to maximum effect. I use the sliding slash extensively for offensive and movement capabilities. I see this as an advantage to my play style. Do you realise that you can do the exact same thing? I didn't need any macros or hacks.

 

I played the game.

 

I suggest you do the same.

 

Instead of whining on the forums because you got overtaken, go back into the game, pick up some Dual Ether Swords and slap a fury mod on them. Start practicing.

 

I can guarantee you that you'll have more fun that way than arguing on these forums.

[Mak_Gohae]

So making more money has no effect on spending money?

 

You are not making more money you are getting money faster, two different things.

[Bakim0n0]

You are not making more money you are getting money faster, two different things.

Ok, I can see how nothing I say is going to go anywhere here.

[Thypari2013]

Serious question Mak_Gohae... If you get offered two jobs by similar companies, one offers you $5 / hour with a 40 hour work week and another offers you $10 / hr with a 20 hour work week for doing, effectively, the same job...

Which one offers you a greater incentive to accept the offer?

same concept in the game...

you can run one mission for 4k credits

or run 2-3 missions fast and have similar mod / exp and 2-3 times the credits...

Which one offers the greater incentive?

Like I and others have said, this game *rewards* rushing; at least for the filler maps.

 

Wrong example.

 

You get a regular job offer 5$/hour. And you see a lot of people doing clandestine employment on the same job for 20$/hour.

 

Which one you choose?

 

 

Warframe:

 

You can spend money/farm on official sprint mods, speed mods, stamina mods or you can use an exploit where you don't need to spend any money/farm.

 

Which one you choose?

Edited May 13, 2013 by Thypari2013

[Luxangel7]

a book.

Look dude, you and others are reacting so irrationally to a very simple point. And so far the only two forms of rebuttal I've seen on here are personal attacks and some backwards logic that "since mods/stamina/sprint etc is not good, it's ok to use this exploit".

 

Neither of these two cases validate anything. And writing treatises on how I and others who agree supposedly suck, or "got beat" (lol srsly?) really doesn't accomplish anything except inserting a wall 'o text just for the sake of it.

 

If you disagree with my opinion, that's fine. But your (and others) complete lack to do anything but attack me personally and offer circular flawed logic really doesn't make any sense.

 

I've made this example before. But by the logic you and a few others have put forward, if I think ammo mods/systems are flawed then I am totally justified in using a button sequence that lets me skip reloading.

 

The one thing I can understand and agree with you is that I didn't address the problem of why people are using this, which would be to assume that there is something wrong with the current method of traversing space. I didn't adress this because to me there is no problem with it. There is slow running, sprinting, wall running, slide jumping etc and to me they are fine.

 

I even specifically stated that I don't see anything wrong with melee slide attacking, but it shouldn't be possible for someone to do that from mission start all the way to extraction. I really don't think I'm saying anything crazy here.

 

And lastly, if you notice, I have never once insulted anyone, or attacked anyone personally while saying what I think. The fact that people like you who disagree with me continue to do so I believe speaks for itself. 

 

 

More argument baiting

 

Dude, if you think that I have nothing better to do than to get into a sentence by sentence argument of you said / I said, you are sadly mistaken. I said everything I have to personally say to you in my last post responding to you trying to get me into an argument. I don't know why you are so angry or have taken this issue so personally, but I would humbly and genuinely suggest you try and calm down. I will not be responding to you again.

Edited May 13, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[Deek]

Doesn't this game have wall-running and stuff to increase your sprint speed, or something?

 

yeh it does, i love wall running, there are places we have to. ninja style max wall run and melee

[RunaCarbuncle]

I don't know how to break this to you but it's easy to do and doesn't require a macro. I do it frequently, it's literally holding two buttons and tapping two other buttons in an alternating fashion.

 

I wish that part of this community weren't so strongly against people playing the game in the way they think is fun.

 

EDIT: For what it's worth I agree that to an extent this is clearly a bug, stamina should matter in this game when it doesn't really beyond sprinting. If you hit 0 stamina you should no longer be allowed to jump, melee, block, or sprint for a period until it refills some. The stamina system as a whole needs a lot of tuning and I think that this "new wavedashing" you are complaining about should be just fine as a mechanic if they ever got around to making stamina into a mechanic that matters.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Rixile

[Mak_Gohae]

Ok, I can see how nothing I say is going to go anywhere here.

 

It's going somewhere but not the place you want to.

To you getting money faster is good and apparently some reward.

To other people getting money faster means nothing and they are not penalized for not getting it faster.

 

Getting money faster means nothing but getting money faster.

[Luxangel7]

I don't know how to break this to you but it's easy to do and doesn't require a macro. I do it frequently, it's literally holding two buttons and tapping two other buttons in an alternating fashion.

 

I wish that part of this community weren't so strongly against people playing the game in the way they think is fun.

 

EDIT: For what it's worth I agree that to an extent this is clearly a bug, stamina should matter in this game when it doesn't really beyond sprinting. If you hit 0 stamina you should no longer be allowed to jump, melee, block, or sprint for a period until it refills some. The stamina system as a whole needs a lot of tuning and I think that this "new wavedashing" you are complaining about should be just fine as a mechanic if they ever got around to making stamina into a mechanic that matters.

 

That's really what I've been saying. It's unfortunate that some people have misinterpreted my op as to say "take out melee sliding" when I specifically added it in there saying that's not what I was saying.

 

I just meant to tune it so that this feature can't be exploited. If there was a feature of wall running that let you wall run forever I wouldn't say "eliminate wall running", I would say (as I am here) FIX it.

[BloodKitten]

i saw a firm stance when they fixed the wave riders, they said no and explained that it was against their vision. this is likely to get the same treatment which sucks, because its a legit attack being abused.

 

possible selution would be just remove any speed boost players getting from it, could understand something big like a scindo or fragor with the whole momentom and weight thing, but dual zorns or daggers? not really likely.

[Sp1nKuro]

I don't know how to break this to you but it's easy to do and doesn't require a macro. I do it frequently, it's literally holding two buttons and tapping two other buttons in an alternating fashion.

 

I wish that part of this community weren't so strongly against people playing the game in the way they think is fun.

 

EDIT: For what it's worth I agree that to an extent this is clearly a bug, stamina should matter in this game when it doesn't really beyond sprinting. If you hit 0 stamina you should no longer be allowed to jump, melee, block, or sprint for a period until it refills some. The stamina system as a whole needs a lot of tuning and I think that this "new wavedashing" you are complaining about should be just fine as a mechanic if they ever got around to making stamina into a mechanic that matters.

It's even easier when you use an xbox controller like I do.

But we sacrifice a lot for doing that, aim is slower/less accurate and blocking never happens since it's on dpad.