Don't Nerf Marelok Its Not Op

[vaugahn]

"Suppose to be" really? Its great we people tell me how a game is supposed to be. Its weird that so many people who tell me that have different opinions on how its suppose to be.

 

Actually, it's been stated that balance (supposedly) ends at level 80. Beyond that is challenge tier territory, you're on your own.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

If the only reason to nerf something is "just because" then it doesn't need to be nerfed.

 

I actually think Chroma is one of the better-balanced things they've released recently. 

The cycle goes like this: DE releases a new thing, players use it to cheese. DE releases content that's hard even with cheese. Now everything is too hard, so they release a new thing that allows players to cheese, and out into infinity.

 

Agreed :)

 

Hmm I was sure you would think chroma was a little... a little... you know. I guess that demonstrates how subjective that type of opinion can be. By the way just because I feel he's a little... doesn't mean I think he should be changed. I just think he'll be a target.

 

I know what you mean even though I'm a bit mixed on the language. Cheesing used to mean hiding and running away. It now cover such a wide variety of things I find it hard to understand the problem sometimes. It essentially means not facing a enemy head on.

 

Tbh I don't see the problem. Accusing a Loki of cheesing it is like accusing water of being wet. I watched a video of a frost soloing Blackout 3 using globe. Top comment "You just cheesed it".

 

The mixture of RPG and FPS has thrown players I think.

 

Some people don't fight head on, its cool there are other ways to fight. Depending on the circumstances some are even better.

 

Actually, it's been stated that balance (supposedly) ends at level 80. Beyond that is challenge tier territory, you're on your own.

 

And that's why I love you.

Edited April 17, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The game is suppose to be balanced for 1-55ish play. Maybe into 60.

 

Is what why raid starts at level 70 and gets up to about 120ish?

 

 

Marelok is not going to be nerfed at all. It already has good trade offs in power and disadvantages. So Vaykor and default can sigh from relief.

 

I want to believe you, but these people seeking "balance" don't really understand how you actually balance a weapon so they whine and whine and sometimes Scott listens just to shut them up.

 

If the only reason to nerf something is "just because" then it doesn't need to be nerfed. Being on the top of the pile doesn't automatically qualify something for a nerf. Something is always going to be on top. When things are hovering in the sky above the pile, or when things that should be on the bottom of the pile are stronger than things on the top, that's where we start considering nerfs.

 

And yet you support a synoid nerf. Considering it wasn't hovering above the pile unless you assume DPS is the be all end all of a weapon's performance, you should be arguing against that nerf. :|

[vaugahn]

Agreed :)

 

Hmm I was sure you would think chroma was a little... a little... you know. I guess that demonstrates how subjective that type of opinion can be. By the way just because I feel he's a little... doesn't mean I think he should be changed. I just think he'll be a target.

 

I know what you mean even though I'm a bit mixed on the language. Cheesing used to mean hiding and running away. It now cover such a wide variety of things I find it hard to understand the problem sometimes. It essentially means not facing a enemy head on.

 

Tbh I don't see the problem. Accusing a Loki of cheesing it is like accusing water of being wet. I watched a video of a frost soloing Blackout 3 using globe. Top comment "You just cheesed it".

 

The mixture of RPG and FPS has thrown players I think.

 

Some people don't fight head on, its cool there are other ways to fight. Depending on the circumstances some are even better.

 

For the purposes of this discussion, define cheesing as any tactic that removes the reasonable possibily of defeat. Loki can get hit by stray bullets, and even baton guys can lay down some serious pain if they get close enough. Some tactics/gear are quite literally unstoppable though, at least for existing gameplay content.

 

And yet you support a synoid nerf. Considering it wasn't hovering above the pile unless you assume DPS is the be all end all of a weapon's performance, you should be arguing against that nerf. :|

 

DPS is not the end all and be all of a weapon's performance. It is part of it though. I believe the Synoid was overperforming, and now it's underperforming,.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

I believe the Synoid was overperforming, and now it's underperforming,.

 

Please don't start Vaugahn.

Edited April 18, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[Eric1738]

err... i didnt see many want to nerf marelok(actually are there any?)

[Rakosta_Kai]

So much passive-aggressive nerf herding...

 

Should we all just take a look at what everyone else is using most and campaign to nerf it?

[Rakosta_Kai]

 

DPS is not the end all and be all of a weapon's performance. It is part of it though. I believe the Synoid was overperforming, and now it's underperforming,.

 

I was really going to let this go but I couldn't...

 

As one of the spearheads in that endeavor,  have you noticed anything radically different in the way groups operate since the nerf you advocated got ratified?

[LazyKnight]

err... i didnt see many want to nerf marelok(actually are there any?)

Either the OP is trolling or people fear that DE_Scott found his nerf hammer again. Just like that topic that someone thought Dex Dakra would be nerfed because it was not bad. 

 

Should we all just take a look at what everyone else is using most and campaign to nerf it?

When has that not been the case with weapon feed-back? When I first started playing there was a consecrated effort on these boards to nerf shotguns (Hek) and gorgon. 

 

I do not care what people use for a weapon, as long as it not shaking my screen or obscuring it with an explosion.

 

I just get annoyed with consumables spamming then advocating that it's a band-aid solution to a game-play problem.

 

Edit: spelling 

Edited April 18, 2015 by LazyKnight

[vaugahn]

I was really going to let this go but I couldn't...

 

As one of the spearheads in that endeavor,  have you noticed anything radically different in the way groups operate since the nerf you advocated got ratified?

 

It's a game balance change, not the constitution. Nothing got "ratified", chill out.

 

I don't particularly like the way the nerf was handled. I believe the Synoid was in need of a nerf, I would have preferred a range or base damage reduction rather than an ammo efficiency one.

 

I have noticed fewer Synoids in high level runs, though it appears to still be a choice weapon for many people. One noticeable change I've observed is in the way people use the gun, the main tactic before was just to sweep it over a group of enemies but now people aim and click on enemies individually, to conserve ammo I suppose.

 

Should we all just take a look at what everyone else is using most and campaign to nerf it?

 

Again, not how it works.

[Sakatchi]

You can easily write those people off then. That's not how balance works.

 

 

Compare Amprex to Ignis. There's your power creep.

Oh no. one is better, what ever shall you do.

[Rakosta_Kai]

It's a game balance change, not the constitution. Nothing got "ratified", chill out.

 

 

When you (or anyone that's not the decision maker) causes that decision maker to agree to and effect the change of something in existence. That change was "ratified" by them.

In effect, It is my opinion that DE agreed to a changes to the weapon's balance but they didn't dream them up.

 

So you caught the use... But not the meaning.

 

 

 

I don't particularly like the way the nerf was handled. I believe the Synoid was in need of a nerf, I would have preferred a range or base damage reduction rather than an ammo efficiency one.

 

 

DE aims to please (or something..)

Since the thread(s) you advocated mentioned both I guess they decided to do just that...

 

Oh... Did you ever even own one?

Your profile says you don't.

 

You were one of the loudest voices in the whole Nerf Sudacore campaign.

I sincerely hope you own one... No one should spend that much time working to affect change without vested interest.

 

Right now, to me, you look like a nerf-herder who has popped into a thread with legitimate gripes about something you caused.

It's the functional equivalent of crying at the funeral of someone you murdered.

 

It's disingenuous of you...

 

 

I have noticed fewer Synoids in high level runs, though it appears to still be a choice weapon for many people. One noticeable change I've observed is in the way people use the gun, the main tactic before was just to sweep it over a group of enemies but now people aim and click on enemies individually, to conserve ammo I suppose.

 

You know what I've noticed?

A staggering use of the 4 key and a general switch to other high tier weapons.

I don't see the sudacore at all anymore though... Good Job!

 

But, in essence... Nothing changed in the meta.

Power Creep not stemmed (like it even could be...).

 

Your balance crusade wasted a lot of other people's time and money (creds and plat) farming for a weapon you don't appear to actually have.

 

You really ought to get one and test out your handiwork...

 

 

Again, not how it works.

 

That's how it has worked up to now...

It's what you did...

So what changed?

I just proposed to do what folks like you did without veiling it behind pseudo issues like power creep.

[vaugahn]

When you (or anyone that's not the decision maker) causes that decision maker to agree to and effect the change of something in existence. That change was "ratified" by them.

In effect, It is my opinion that DE agreed to a changes to the weapon's balance but they didn't dream them up.

 

So you caught the use... But not the meaning.

 

Please don't make out like I personally went up to DE headquarters and signed off on this. Using loaded language like that in an argument is juvenile. 

 

-snip-

 

Own the Synoid, used it quite a bit. Even put a forma in it. I owned the regular Gammacor as well. Is that what your argument comes down to? There may well be people on this forum who would ask for something to be nerfed, but I would never propose a balance change for something I have not personally used. Looking at paper stats only shows so much.

 

I just proposed to do what folks like you did without veiling it behind pseudo issues like power creep.

 

Simply being on top of the pile does not automatically qualify something for a nerf.

 

Look man, I get you're unhappy. But you need to chill out with all the personal "you did this" crap. I didn't do anything. I was one voice in a debate that swamped these forums for weeks. My opinion carried no more weight than the dozens of others who argued for and against nerfing the Synoid. Go pick out someone else to preach at.

 

Oh, and there's no use denying the existence of power creep. That's a losing battle.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

When I first started playing there was a consecrated effort on these boards to nerf shotguns (Hek) and gorgon.

 

I just get annoyed with consumables spamming than advocating that it's a band-aid solution to a game-play problem.

 

Agreed 100%

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

2 things!

 

Oh... Did you ever even own one?

Your profile says you don't.

 

1) How can I check someones profile? If its in session with them I already know.

 

It's what you did...

So what changed?

I just proposed to do what folks like you did without veiling it behind pseudo issues like power creep.

 

2) To be fair. I was on the front lines of a few SG threads too (Nightmares still haunt me). I thought it was fine too just leave it, since I didn't have any other syn weapons atm. But eventually I also thought a change was in order. However I wanted a buff to other Syn Weapons for balance not nerf the SG.

 

Vaugnhn was only one person asking for changes. He wasn't even the loudest. And I forget his exact suggestion but I don't believe it was make it less ammo efficient.

 

That is kind of like DEs "go to" for nerfing weapons. Twin Wraths, Ogris, SG now Khrom. Nerf Efficiency. Pretty much that's their default.

 

Even though I disagreed with him, compared to other people Vaugnhn was down right polite.

 

Can we not attack one person for the sins of a entire community. At least Vaugnhn has the guts to be honest and say objectively the current SG could be better. Many players who backed the nerf wouldn't have the character to be so objective.

 

- - - -

 

Powercreep is a real thing. But nowhere near as bad as its made out to be. Its like the MMO version of Osama Bin Laden. Warframe is pretty good for the most part. But using power creep to justify nerfs to endgame content doesn't play IMO. They really should be better then other weaponry.

 

Superman is a perfect example of powercreep - he used to be able to jump tall buildings, now he can fly, now he can shoot lasers, ice breath, turn back time, faster than speeding bullet try faster than light. You get my point.

Edited April 18, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[Aaira]

Than devs probably should buff that grinlok instead of nerfing a gun which at least kills. Btw im not using marelok if you think that im afraid for it. 

the syndicate mod is kind of a buff, doesnt make the grinlok a top tier weapon but at least it's something.

better than the buzlok at least.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Please don't make out like I personally went up to DE headquarters and signed off on this. Using loaded language like that in an argument is juvenile. 

 

 

What's juvenile is not knowing what the word 'ratify' means... The fact that you still don't speaks volumes for itself. Go back and re-read...Then grab a dictionary.

 

 

 

Own the Synoid, used it quite a bit. Even put a forma in it. I owned the regular Gammacor as well. Is that what your argument comes down to? There may well be people on this forum who would ask for something to be nerfed, but I would never propose a balance change for something I have not personally used. Looking at paper stats only shows so much.

 

 

And yet, your profile says you didn't and don't...

I wonder why that is?

 

 

Simply being on top of the pile does not automatically qualify something for a nerf.

 

 

But it's the argument that you used...

Exactly what doesn't that argument apply now?

 

The simple fact is that there is no baseline of balance in this game.

If you like and use it, I can probably argue that it's OP.

 

Look man, I get you're unhappy. But you need to chill out with all the personal "you did this" crap. I didn't do anything. I was one voice in a debate that swamped these forums for weeks. My opinion carried no more weight than the dozens of others who argued for and against nerfing the Synoid. Go pick out someone else to preach at.

 

 

I agree with you.

You weren't alone.

...But you are the only one of those people I have seen pop into a thread and bemoan the fate of the Synoid when you had a hand in causing it.

 

So.. since you started that discussion in this thread, I feel justified in making sure the whole discussion gets had.

That tinge of discomfort you are feeling is known as accountability.

 

While I don't always agree with you... I do credit that what you say tends to be conveyed with a measure of insight and common sense.

You are certainly smart enough to know that when you ask for a nerf, in this game, you are asking for the item to get ruined.

 

That is a well established trend...

 

You, amongst others, asked for the nerf...

The item got ruined...

You came here and innocently commented about it.

Hence, this conversation.

 

 

Oh, and there's no use denying the existence of power creep. That's a losing battle.

 

Don't be foolish...

I didn't say power creep "didn't exist".

 

I said it was a pseudo issue... It's an issue nothing you or I say will have a lasting effect on.

 

The game releases a new weapon roughly 40 weeks out of the year.

DE makes their money selling these items as opposed to making their money selling boosters and cosmetics.

DE has also been known to slide in and lower the damage on older weapons( Lato, Strun). or remove performers outright (Boar)

So DE is selling the top end of Power creep on one end and manufacturing the low end on the other.

 

Power Creep is inevitable... Because DE uses it as a goad to get players to pony up for the newest thing.

 

Arguments and Campaigns to stop it are silly at this point...

 

If DE stops that trend, they lose money.

 

Recognize that for what it is.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

What's juvenile is not knowing what the word 'ratify' means... The fact that you still don't speaks volumes for itself. Go back and re-read...Then grab a dictionary.

 

Dude, come on man... Is that really necessary?

 

I didn't want the change either but he wasn't the only person pushing for it. Yes I don't like the way the SG business went down. But seriously attacking Vaugahn, one guy, over a decision hundreds of lemmings voted yes on, IS juvenile and more than a little hateful.

 

Beside the hurt feelings, I don't disagree with what either of you have said. Which is funny because after reading each of both of your points it doesn't look like you guys disagree either.

 

So cant we all just get along...

 

 

At least Vaugahn has the guts to be honest and say objectively the current SG could be better. Many players who backed the nerf wouldn't have the character to come forward and say that.

 

Vaugahn and I don't always see eye to eye but it takes character to set your ego aside and be objective.

 

Main Issue: This post is a joke. Marelok is fine leave it alone.

 

P.S. Profiles aren't always right. Mine says I've never owned a Ogris but I've mained one for years.

Edited April 18, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[vaugahn]

And yet, your profile says you didn't and don't...

 

 

Happy?

 

...But you are the only one of those people I have seen pop into a thread and bemoan the fate of the Synoid when you had a hand in causing it.

 

I don't know how I could be any more clear about this: I wanted the Synoid nerfed, however I think it was over-nerfed.

 

That tinge of discomfort you are feeling is known as accountability.

 

I'm no more accountable than the hundreds of other people who shared the same opinion. I'm not a ringleader, I didn't give formal consent to this nerf, I didn't even know what they were going to do until they did it. 

 

You need to stop.

[Egg_Chen]

Creates a thread asking for a weapon not to be nerfed, thus ensuring a discussion proceeds as to whether it needs to be nerfed or not.

Genius.

Next time you are out alone late at night in a dodgy area of town, please shout out :

 

"Any criminals nearby, please don't mug me, I'm only carrying a wallet, phone and I have written my address on my house keys". 

[Paradoxbomb]

I wasn't aware that a plan to nerf the Mareloks was in the works. I mean the damage per shot is undoubtedly ridiculous, but it is still slow and not very accurate, so it is still easy to be overwhelmed given the mob nature of enemies. Maybe it should be looked at *someday* if the Devs actually start taking weapon balance seriously, but as it there's definitely more stupidly broken weapons than the Mareloks.

 

 

P.S. Would still like to see a buff to the Grinlok. It confounds me why a pistol that can fire three bullets through modding has base stats that are superior in almost every way it's rifle counterpart.

 

If they touch the mareloks, I wont have any good secondary anymore and thus what little fun I have with this game, will be lost.

 

If you want to lose more players, go ahead, destroy more weapons. I am sure "everyone" should play in a way that doesnt offend noobs.

 

Thanks for the sgammacor nerf people. The last time I played was almost a month ago. If they keep it up with the nerfs, ill return 6 months later and if by that time they nerf more stuff, well this game will be deleted from my Drive.

 

Good job DE!

 

Wow. Just... wow.

[Rakosta_Kai]

 

Happy?

 

 

I don't know how I could be any more clear about this: I wanted the Synoid nerfed, however I think it was over-nerfed.

 

 

I'm no more accountable than the hundreds of other people who shared the same opinion. I'm not a ringleader, I didn't give formal consent to this nerf, I didn't even know what they were going to do until they did it. 

 

You need to stop.

 

You brought the issue up...

All I'm doing is asking questions buddy.

 

FWIW, I don't think you are any more accountable than any of the other advocates for that nerf.

 

I do give you props because you chose to talk to me about it though.

 

You've given your mea culpa and and shown me that it's a weapon you ran with.

You are cool by me.

 

But you also have some insight into why I advocate against nerfs now.

 

DE doesn't just nerf...

They nuke from orbit.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

DE doesn't just nerf...

They nuke from orbit.

 

Words to live by.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

I wasn't aware that a plan to nerf the Mareloks was in the works. I mean the damage per shot is undoubtedly ridiculous, but it is still slow and not very accurate, so it is still easy to be overwhelmed given the mob nature of enemies. Maybe it should be looked at *someday* if the Devs actually start taking weapon balance seriously, but as it there's definitely more stupidly broken weapons than the Mareloks.

 

 

P.S. Would still like to see a buff to the Grinlok. It confounds me why a pistol that can fire three bullets through modding has base stats that are superior in almost every way it's rifle counterpart.

 

 

Wow. Just... wow.

 

This philosophy of a set 'balance' where everything is equal yet unique, for everyone is... Ignorant. For lack of a better word. There will never be an end to this cycle. One will always come out on top, in someone's opinion and will be subsequently nerfed. What's the goal to this 'balance' anyhow? Make all weapons the same? Just as viable? Every weapon would be reduced to "mastery fodder" with 'skins' and effects being the deciding factor.

 

I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a tiered weapon system. Are there not clear examples of this already? Upgrade Lato > Bolto > Akbolto > AkJagara. Why would you waste the time besides mastery fodder if all these guns were 'just as viable'. You can't tell me the single weapon should match the dual wielded one.

 

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure you'll tell me anyhow. Constructive feedback would be appreciated.

[vaugahn]

DE doesn't just nerf...

They nuke from orbit.

 

It's basically the same idea as a seatbelt: there's no guarantee that a seatbelt will protect you, but I wear one anyways.

 

Some things do just need a nerf. Not many things, but a few. Just because we're worried about what might happen doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge that.

 

And you need to separate "advocates for the Synoid being nerfed" and "advocates for the nerf we received". There are people who think the Synoid is totally fine now, I'm just not one of them.

 

This philosophy of a set 'balance' where everything is equal yet unique, for everyone is... Ignorant. For lack of a better word. There will never be an end to this cycle. One will always come out on top, in someone's opinion and will be subsequently nerfed. What's the goal to this 'balance' anyhow? Make all weapons the same? Just as viable? Every weapon would be reduced to "mastery fodder" with 'skins' and effects being the deciding factor.

 

Not necessarily. The idea is that similar weapons are equally attractive choices, not that all weapons have the same flat amount of power. A weapon that has less power than something else can still be an equally attractive choice through other means.

 

The end goal would be to make it so players don't feel like they're being pushed towards the several meta options.

Edited April 18, 2015 by vaugahn