Poll Results-86.9% Of Players Want Rollers Tweaked/removed

[Spriggs]

One will also note that the co-op required enemies in L4D and Payday are not utterly silly compared to everything else.

 

The Witch is a horrifying mutation of someone who has been infected, that thankfully for our heroes occurs very rarely in female &*$$ sapiens. The Cloaker is basically a retired special ops guy who's rolling with the city's local SWAT team, and used to work for the LAPD, judging from the "beats downed crew members with a nightstick if none of the other crew are around" sentence. The rollers are fast metal balls that are apparently the biggest threat out of the hordes of clone space marines that the Tenno fight.

 

Like, if rollers were instead...I dunno, a grineer surgically implanted in a badass exo suit that has like, the durability of a grineer heavy gunner (or even more!), but instead of a gorgon dude has a flamethrower and keeps closing into you into CQB, neccsitating someone acts like bait while everybody else tries to take him down, they would not only probably be less annoying but would actually make sense that the Tenno are having more difficulty than this, along with fitting the general theme of the Grineer having this "The flesh is weak, but we can fix that." mentality for their soldiers.

 

I've kinda had this head-canon that with the degenerative nature of their cloning process, the Grineer implant the brains of some of their further degenerated clones into the Rollers.

[Madotsuki]

@ookennethoo

 

While you have a point, Warframe, unlike Payday and L4D, have a solo mode and do not enforce 4 player co-op. I don't know about payday, but in L4D even in single player the game would give you 3 bots (albeit with questionable AI, but still), because the whole concept of the game was built upon 4-player co-op. However, Warframe is NOT built entirely upon 4-player co-op. You may have only 3 players, or 2, or even be on your own. Unless these "co-op enforcer" mobs are restricted only to online play, and even then it must somehow be balanced to the existing number of players, which CAN change at any time, otherwise it would be equivalent to putting Nervos in solo mode, or having 4 Hunters at once on L4D.

 

IMO, Warframe enemies should be focused on being solo-able without using fake difficulty, but can also be compatible to teamwork. For example, my version of the Grineer Juggernaut, which you can read about here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/30942-grineer-suggestions-for-new-units-squad-combos-better-ai-tweak-old-units/ There are multiple ways to fight the Juggernaut, both on your own, and with a team. I'm not saying there can't be multiplayer-only enemies, but their numbers and powers would definately have to be painstakingly balanced to take into account different group sizes and must not spawn when there's only one player. Because the last thing DE needs is to dissuade players from playing multiplayer in order to avoid overpowered "co-op enforcers", like the Nervos did back in the day.

 

Plus, if Rollers were meant to "be dispatched by teammates and not yourself", then they wouldn't BE in singleplayer, like the Nervos.

[crow-k]

@ookennethoo

 

While you have a point, Warframe, unlike Payday and L4D, have a solo mode and do not enforce 4 player co-op. I don't know about payday, but in L4D even in single player the game would give you 3 bots (albeit with questionable AI, but still), because the whole concept of the game was built upon 4-player co-op. However, Warframe is NOT built entirely upon 4-player co-op. You may have only 3 players, or 2, or even be on your own. Unless these "co-op enforcer" mobs are restricted only to online play, and even then it must somehow be balanced to the existing number of players, which CAN change at any time, otherwise it would be equivalent to putting Nervos in solo mode, or having 4 Hunters at once on L4D.

 

IMO, Warframe enemies should be focused on being solo-able without using fake difficulty, but can also be compatible to teamwork. For example, my version of the Grineer Juggernaut, which you can read about here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/30942-grineer-suggestions-for-new-units-squad-combos-better-ai-tweak-old-units/ There are multiple ways to fight the Juggernaut, both on your own, and with a team. I'm not saying there can't be multiplayer-only enemies, but their numbers and powers would definately have to be painstakingly balanced to take into account different group sizes and must not spawn when there's only one player. Because the last thing DE needs is to dissuade players from playing multiplayer in order to avoid overpowered "co-op enforcers", like the Nervos did back in the day.

 

Plus, if Rollers were meant to "be dispatched by teammates and not yourself", then they wouldn't BE in singleplayer, like the Nervos.

I get where you are coming from. They are annoying. Mobs should be more like butterflies or something. They should land on us and give us their credits and mods. 

Or you can shoot them. Or blow them up with usually between 1 and 4 buttons. This is not the issue people make it out to be. Even in solo. if devs tweak them fine, dont care, but I would care that the tenno next to me is able to kill everything but cannot overcome a ball. a ball. overcome. 

yea.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

@ookennethoo

 

While you have a point, Warframe, unlike Payday and L4D, have a solo mode and do not enforce 4 player co-op. I don't know about payday, but in L4D even in single player the game would give you 3 bots (albeit with questionable AI, but still), because the whole concept of the game was built upon 4-player co-op. However, Warframe is NOT built entirely upon 4-player co-op. You may have only 3 players, or 2, or even be on your own. Unless these "co-op enforcer" mobs are restricted only to online play, and even then it must somehow be balanced to the existing number of players, which CAN change at any time, otherwise it would be equivalent to putting Nervos in solo mode, or having 4 Hunters at once on L4D.

 

IMO, Warframe enemies should be focused on being solo-able without using fake difficulty, but can also be compatible to teamwork. For example, my version of the Grineer Juggernaut, which you can read about here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/30942-grineer-suggestions-for-new-units-squad-combos-better-ai-tweak-old-units/ There are multiple ways to fight the Juggernaut, both on your own, and with a team. I'm not saying there can't be multiplayer-only enemies, but their numbers and powers would definately have to be painstakingly balanced to take into account different group sizes and must not spawn when there's only one player. Because the last thing DE needs is to dissuade players from playing multiplayer in order to avoid overpowered "co-op enforcers", like the Nervos did back in the day.

 

Plus, if Rollers were meant to "be dispatched by teammates and not yourself", then they wouldn't BE in singleplayer, like the Nervos.

 

I'm aware of that hence

 

However, to include enemies of this level of difficulty that requires coop, you must allow AI companions in SOLO play because otherwise, SOLO play becomes impossible.

 

What I tried to bring across was that perhaps it is possible for these type of enemies to be put into the game if you have AI companions (questionable or not) whose jobs are just to be able to get you out of situations which are really impossible to tackle yourself, introduced into the game.

 

For Payday, it is completely optional if you want the AI companions but by not doing so, though not impossible, is extremely difficult since the cannon fodder can kill you easily and you don't have spells or skills.

 

Thus, I was indirectly trying to bring in a possible suggestion for optional AI companions so that this concept of coop-focused enemies can be introduced.

 

I was also just throwing in a possible reason for why some people find rollers so difficult to dispatch while others seem to not mind them one bit and the point I was bringing across is the possible difference in mentality (individualism vs collectivism) and playstyle of the player.

 

I'm glad that there are players like you who are requesting for better enemies and AI and not just asking for nerfs on frames/weapons just so as to balance with the current enemies which are bullet spongues in majority.

 

 

 

 

In addition, I would also like to elaborate a little on the concept of damage vs accuracy.

 

Dealing out damage is nothing more than being good with maths, a bit of luck and planning the optimal mods to give you the highest damage possible. This, though arguably not easy, is not really a challenge in the long run. If you think about it, as long as you and your teammates have enough HP, shields and DPS, you can kill any enemy and clear any mission in the game now.

 

Accuracy, on the other hand, requires skill from the player. Thus, a player with no accuracy even if given the most modded weapon will not be any better than one without the weapon.

 

Thus, if the community truly wants challenge, the enemies introduced should ideally require accuracy more than damage from the player.

 

 

 

 

 

-Below is all based on my opinion and is thus subjective-

 

After playing for some time, I actually noticed that a few of the enemies in the game currently are extremely good in concept but implemented poorly which was also why I thought that perhaps rollers may be one of them.

 

One such enemy type is the shield osprey. The idea of shielding enemies from us is good but poorly implemented when it uses a shield and not just plain making enemies invulnerable.

 

Currently, we can kill the enemies easily (mostly in one shot with the proper mods) even if they are shielded by the ospreys, making the entire concept pointless.

 

Ideally, the intended strategy of this enemy is to make players have to shoot it first (a test of accuracy) before they tackle the other enemies but the moment players have the ability to deal a certain amount of damage which is enough to take out the shield it applies and more in one shot (through the use of mods and supercharged weapons), the whole concept become pointless since players can completely ignore them.

 

Another is the Grineer shield. The ideal intended strategy should be for one player to draw its attention and thus make it turn its back to the rest of the team. However, currently, its AI does not know how to prioritize who to focus its attention to. It simply maintains the shield in one general direction allowing us to just run past it easily and shoot it in its back without any help from the teammates.

 

Lastly (as far as I can remember), the Grineer Rollers. The ideal intended strategy should be for a teammate to shoot it (a test of accuracy) while it is attacking another teammate. The problem is its time of exposure (when it hits your teammate and become slower) is rather short so once you miss (which is easy due to its size), you will have to wait a long time before it shows its exposure time again. It is actually a test of accuracy but without a sufficient time of exposure, it becomes too difficult for some.

 

The rest of the enemies are nothing more than bullet spongues with different skins and/or enemies that do not promote coop play which are easily overcome by being able to deal out a certain amount of damage large enough to kill them, before they can even do anything significant, through our skills/spells and/or our weapons.

Edited May 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[Madotsuki]

I'm aware of that hence

 

 

What I tried to bring across was that perhaps it is possible for these type of enemies to be put into the game if you have AI companions (questionable or not) whose jobs are just to be able to get you out of situations which are really impossible to tackle yourself, introduced into the game.

 

For Payday, it is completely optional if you want the AI companions but by not doing so, though not impossible, is extremely difficult since the cannon fodder can kill you easily and you don't have spells or skills.

 

Thus, I was indirectly trying to bring in a possible suggestion for optional AI companions so that this concept of coop-focused enemies can be introduced.

 

I was also just throwing in a possible reason for why some people find rollers so difficult to dispatch while others seem to not mind them one bit and the point I was bringing across is the possible difference in mentality (individualism vs collectivism) and playstyle of the player.

 

 

 

 

 

-Below is all based on my opinion and is thus subjective-

 

After playing for some time, I actually noticed that a few of the enemies in the game currently are extremely good in concept but implemented poorly which was also why I thought that perhaps rollers may be one of them.

 

One such enemy type is the shield osprey. The idea of shielding enemies from us is good but poorly implemented when it uses a shield and not just plain making enemies invulnerable.

 

Currently, we can kill the enemies easily (mostly in one shot with the proper mods) even if they are shielded by the ospreys, making the entire concept pointless.

 

Ideally, the intended strategy of this enemy is to make players have to shoot it first before they tackle the other enemies but the moment players have the ability to due a certain amount of damage which is enough to take out the shield it applies and more in one shot (through the use of mods and supercharged weapons), the whole concept become pointless since players can completely ignore them.

 

Another is the Grineer shield. The ideal intended strategy should be for one player to draw its attention and thus make it turn its back to the rest of the team. However, currently, its AI does not know how to prioritize who to focus its attention to. It simply maintains the shield in one general direction allowing us to just run past it easily and shoot it in its back without any help from the teammates.

 

Lastly (as far as I can remember), the Grineer Rollers. The ideal intended strategy should be for a teammate to shoot it while it is attacking another teammate. The problem is its time of exposure (when it hits your teammate and become slower) is rather short so once you miss (which is easy due to its size), you will have to wait a long time before it shows its exposure time again.

Unfortunately, coding even half-decent AI companions takes up A LOT of resources. Considering the complete stupidity of the Hostages right now, I don't think DE would be capable of implementing AI companions.

 

I agree Shield Ospreys are kinda weak since certain weapons are capable of just outright overpowering the shield anyway. However, i do NOT agree with letting the Shield Osprey grant invincibility. Shield Osprey AI tends to make them hide as much as possible, behind pillars, boxes, etc. Making them outright grant invulnerability would make it near impossible to fight solo against a horde of shielded enemies while the osprey itself hides out of line of fire. A good example of a Shield Osprey done well are the Shield Surveyors in Borderlands 2. They are almost the same as Shield Ospreys, though they fly around using electric bolts to harass you when there are no units to boost since BL2 has open world maps. What they do better than Shield Ospreys though is that they rapidly build up the shields of their target. It's not an instant shield like the Shield Osprey, and is gradual instead. While heavy enough firepower can still overpower the regenerating shield, it is almost always a better plan to kill the Surveyor first as the shield regen and strength is almost Warframe boss level, and multiple surveyors can stack their rates, though not strength. Don't let the Osprey grant invincibility, just buff its shield regen rate and shield strength.

 

Grineer Shield Lancers are actually pretty balanced. They're hard to hit on your own without precision weapons as the only things that show usually are the tips of their heads and their feet. Maybe their AI could be improved so that they can quickly turn towards the closest player, which still wouldn't be OP in solo or anything since it's still very possible to hit them from the front and melee can outright bypass their shields, but they're not THAT nooby.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Madotsuki

[Sollet]

Not this again.

 

Why are people so hell bent on removing them or dumbing them down?

 

Does the balls pose such a great threat? Are they so "game-breaking" as people make it sound?

Edited May 16, 2013 by Sollet

[crow-k]

Forget the AI, and you do not need a teammate either. In no situation have I allowed a large mass of mobs around me and plenty of balls for stunning. Just don't close in, take them out as they approach  When you hear that particular sound they make move to a better position, higher if possible. Nothing in this is insurmountable solo. Just apply your gaming skills. Pretend that DE is never going to listen to you and you have no choice but to deal with it. And please do not get me wrong in this, I know they have read this post .I know that the information has been discussed. All we can do now is wait and see. Without some new argument (read point previously NOT made and may contain a revelation of sorts) the is just flagellating a deceased equine. 

[MoonicusMaximus]

Grineer Shield Lancers are actually pretty balanced. They're hard to hit on your own without precision weapons as the only things that show usually are the tips of their heads and their feet. Maybe their AI could be improved so that they can quickly turn towards the closest player, which still wouldn't be OP in solo or anything since it's still very possible to hit them from the front and melee can outright bypass their shields, but they're not THAT nooby.

 

Current Shield Lancers are more or less a joke. Their shield doesn't cover even the full front of their body, meaning essentially any advantage they might have had with what should have been a full-body shield is worthless in a game where gunplay is the main method of attacking enemies. They cannot track even single players well, and currently they do not take advantage of their shield in any meaningful way. Their pistols are incredibly weak, and they move out of their shield to fire at you instead of just firing around the shield. Even their charge attack is completely negated by a single melee swipe, because for some strange reason, a shield doesn't block Tenno melee attacks.

 

The only interesting thing Shield Lancers manage to accomplish is providing cover that other Grineer utilize. However, Shield Grineer with other Grineer behind them do not advance upon you using the shield as sensible mobile cover, and will often forget they are providing cover for their allies behind them and pull their shield away and try and shoot you.

 

Honestly, ALL of the special units in the game currently could potentially present many more layers of difficulty and challenge, but in their current iterations do not; most, if not all of them, are dealt with in the same style and consistency as normal fodder units. In theory, I should have to worry about Heavy Gunners, but in practice, they are little more than Lancers that manage to stay alive a whole 1-2 seconds longer, delivering the same minimal damage as Lancers due to their long gorgon spin-up, long target/player acquisition, and susceptibility to freeze mechanics. The only things that are remotely dangerous at the moment are things that do ridiculous burst damage, stunlock you into oblivion, or a combination of both; fake difficulty, as people here seem to be so keen on admitting, and there seems to be no middle ground whatsoever. And even then, it's only actually dangerous is you're playing solo; you literally have nothing to worry about at all when you play with 3 other people.

 

---

 

So, yes, DE could start by making Rollers a bit more dangerous and dynamic through means other than constant stunlocking.

Edited May 16, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[RealityMachina]

@ookennethoo

 

While you have a point, Warframe, unlike Payday and L4D, have a solo mode and do not enforce 4 player co-op. I don't know about payday, but in L4D even in single player the game would give you 3 bots (albeit with questionable AI, but still), because the whole concept of the game was built upon 4-player co-op. However, Warframe is NOT built entirely upon 4-player co-op. You may have only 3 players, or 2, or even be on your own. Unless these "co-op enforcer" mobs are restricted only to online play, and even then it must somehow be balanced to the existing number of players, which CAN change at any time, otherwise it would be equivalent to putting Nervos in solo mode, or having 4 Hunters at once on L4D.

 

IMO, Warframe enemies should be focused on being solo-able without using fake difficulty, but can also be compatible to teamwork. For example, my version of the Grineer Juggernaut, which you can read about here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/30942-grineer-suggestions-for-new-units-squad-combos-better-ai-tweak-old-units/ There are multiple ways to fight the Juggernaut, both on your own, and with a team. I'm not saying there can't be multiplayer-only enemies, but their numbers and powers would definately have to be painstakingly balanced to take into account different group sizes and must not spawn when there's only one player. Because the last thing DE needs is to dissuade players from playing multiplayer in order to avoid overpowered "co-op enforcers", like the Nervos did back in the day.

 

Plus, if Rollers were meant to "be dispatched by teammates and not yourself", then they wouldn't BE in singleplayer, like the Nervos.

I actually like the Juggernaut idea more.The current grineer melee enemies are very...meh, they're in need of a big power armoured guy with a huge "I am going to ruin your day." hammer for an "elite" version of them.

Edited May 16, 2013 by RealityMachina

[crow-k]

Current Shield Lancers are more or less a joke. Their shield doesn't cover even the full front of their body, meaning essentially any advantage they might have had with what should have been a full-body shield is worthless in a game where gunplay is the main method of attacking enemies. They cannot track even single players well, and currently they do not take advantage of their shield in any meaningful way. Their pistols are incredibly weak, and they move out of their shield to fire at you instead of just firing around the shield. Even their charge attack is completely negated by a single melee swipe, because for some strange reason, a shield doesn't block Tenno melee attacks.

 

The only interesting thing Shield Lancers manage to accomplish is providing cover that other Grineer utilize. However, Shield Grineer with other Grineer behind them do not advance upon you using the shield as sensible mobile cover, and will often forget they are providing cover for their allies behind them and pull their shield away and try and shoot you.

 

Honestly, ALL of the special units in the game currently could potentially present many more layers of difficulty and challenge, but in their current iterations do not; most, if not all of them, are dealt with in the same style and consistency as normal fodder units. In theory, I should have to worry about Heavy Gunners, but in practice, they are little more than Lancers that manage to stay alive a whole 1-2 seconds longer, delivering the same minimal damage as Lancers due to their long gorgon spin-up, long target/player acquisition, and susceptibility to freeze mechanics. The only things that are remotely dangerous at the moment are things that do ridiculous burst damage, stunlock you into oblivion, or a combination of both; fake difficulty, as people here seem to be so keen on admitting, and there seems to be no middle ground whatsoever. And even then, it's only actually dangerous is you're playing solo; you literally have nothing to worry about at all when you play with 3 other people.

 

---

 

So, yes, DE could start by making Rollers a bit more dangerous and dynamic through means other than constant stunlocking.

Most of which I would think is more because of our outstanding gear. If we were all non charged weapons/frames, things may be a bit more difficult, Now barring skill take any person to kiste. He can equip any mods he wants on any weapon he wants as long as he does not used more than 30 points on each. And then send him on his merry way. He may succeed  He may lose, but it will not be the cake walk that many people are said to experience now. On the idea that all enemy mobs could provide a more dynamic threat would be a good thing , and one I think they are currently working on, We do have new classes incoming too^^ 

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

Most of which I would think is more because of our outstanding gear. If we were all non charged weapons/frames, things may be a bit more difficult, Now barring skill take any person to kiste. He can equip any mods he wants on any weapon he wants as long as he does not used more than 30 points on each. And then send him on his merry way. He may succeed  He may lose, but it will not be the cake walk that many people are said to experience now. On the idea that all enemy mobs could provide a more dynamic threat would be a good thing , and one I think they are currently working on, We do have new classes incoming too^^ 

 

Precisely the point.

 

However, that's just half of it.

 

The other half is that current enemies emphasizes damage more than accuracy.

 

Thus, even if you have ultra bad accuracy and can't hit weak spots, as long as you can dish out high damage, you win.

 

An example of a game that emphasizes accuracy over damage is Dead Space series. Doesn't matter what damage your guns deal if you can't aim well enough to cut off their limbs in an intense situation.

Edited May 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[MoonicusMaximus]

Most of which I would think is more because of our outstanding gear. If we were all non charged weapons/frames, things may be a bit more difficult, Now barring skill take any person to kiste. He can equip any mods he wants on any weapon he wants as long as he does not used more than 30 points on each. And then send him on his merry way. He may succeed  He may lose, but it will not be the cake walk that many people are said to experience now. On the idea that all enemy mobs could provide a more dynamic threat would be a good thing , and one I think they are currently working on, We do have new classes incoming too^^ 

 

Most of my issues with Shield Grineer are based on their actual behaviors, not their relation to players and their individual gear and stats. At the point in which Shield Grineer start showing up on a regular basis, most Tenno already have a bevvy of souped-up mods and weapons with which to make content trivial.

 

It doesn't make much of a different if I have a non-potato Braton or a full supercharged Braton when I fight Shield Grineer, because if I wait a couple seconds outside of their soft shield charge range, they will pull their shield completely out of the way in order to shoot their pistols at me. It doesn't matter if I have a level 1 skana or a level 30 spud'd Gram when a Shield Grineer charges me, because he is staggered through his raised shield by any type of melee attack, completely negating any danger presented to me no matter my gear level.

 

The fundamental problems with shield lancers, and the rest of the special units in the game, don't stem from players being overpowered, it's because their mechanics that appear to be built to present a challenging situation do not actually present one. This is a problem with Rollers as well; the challenge they impart on players is based entirely on an unfun mechanic, stunlocking, and should be changed to allow multiple means of harassing players rather than one that doesn't benefit anyone's fun or present a surmountable challenge to deliver that feeling of fun to the player.

Edited May 16, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[Madotsuki]

Current Shield Lancers are more or less a joke. Their shield doesn't cover even the full front of their body, meaning essentially any advantage they might have had with what should have been a full-body shield is worthless in a game where gunplay is the main method of attacking enemies. They cannot track even single players well, and currently they do not take advantage of their shield in any meaningful way. Their pistols are incredibly weak, and they move out of their shield to fire at you instead of just firing around the shield. Even their charge attack is completely negated by a single melee swipe, because for some strange reason, a shield doesn't block Tenno melee attacks.

 

The only interesting thing Shield Lancers manage to accomplish is providing cover that other Grineer utilize. However, Shield Grineer with other Grineer behind them do not advance upon you using the shield as sensible mobile cover, and will often forget they are providing cover for their allies behind them and pull their shield away and try and shoot you.

 

Honestly, ALL of the special units in the game currently could potentially present many more layers of difficulty and challenge, but in their current iterations do not; most, if not all of them, are dealt with in the same style and consistency as normal fodder units. In theory, I should have to worry about Heavy Gunners, but in practice, they are little more than Lancers that manage to stay alive a whole 1-2 seconds longer, delivering the same minimal damage as Lancers due to their long gorgon spin-up, long target/player acquisition, and susceptibility to freeze mechanics. The only things that are remotely dangerous at the moment are things that do ridiculous burst damage, stunlock you into oblivion, or a combination of both; fake difficulty, as people here seem to be so keen on admitting, and there seems to be no middle ground whatsoever. And even then, it's only actually dangerous is you're playing solo; you literally have nothing to worry about at all when you play with 3 other people.

 

---

 

So, yes, DE could start by making Rollers a bit more dangerous and dynamic through means other than constant stunlocking.

 

Okay, I will admit, Shield Lancers having to move their shields to the side in order to shoot you is REALLY dumb. I laugh every time they do that when there's another Lancer hiding behind them before I nail them both with one Paris arrow. However, as I've said, they shouldn't have a shield that completely covers every inch of them from the front, as that makes solo attempts against them incredibly hard. The shield size is fine as it is, they just need to turn faster towards players. I mean, they are just medium units, and with a small shield, it's justified that they can turn to face whatever direction the closest player is to them instantaneously even. And yes their AI needs buffing. Oh and let's not forget the fact that, despite taking cover behind them, lancers and troopers still have to STAND UP to shoot you most of the time, making the mobile cover pointless. It'd be interesting if they could recognize being covered by a shield lancer (or a riot cop as i like to call them) and will stay crouched while sticking his rifle out from the side to potshot at you, making the mobile cover actually effective.

 

Heavy Gunners are essentially buffed versions of regular Lancers, what more would you expect? If one does manage to flank you (it's happened to me before due to stupid spawns) they CAN be extremely devastating since even my super-modded glaive, which can kill even level 50 crewmen in one throw, can't two-shot them even with headshots. I suppose their real excessive weakness is that being hit by ANYTHING will make them stop shooting, despite them not actually flinching visibly. I'm serious, when a Heavy starts shooting at me, if i plink them (not even on the head) with my Lex, they just mysteriously stop. They don't stagger, they don't flinch, they just stop shooting for a bit. I could understand the Heavies visibly flinching or staggering if they get shot in the head by a Lex, Snipetron or Paris, extremely high powered precision weapons like that, or under sustained headshots by rifles, but otherwise they should just keep firing away. Plus, they're heavies, you shouldn't expect them to be able to move fast enough to flank you out of cover (bizarre spawn locations not included), they seem more fitting for providing sustained cover fire for regular Lancers to move in for the flanking. THAT would be a good AI upgrade wouldn't it?

 

And, as I've always said before, currently the game's difficulty is actually perfectly fitted for solo play only. I usually exclusively solo, even on Ceres/Eris/Pluto, though I recently played a few rounds with one to two friends, and the difference in difficulty is VERY significant. The easiest way to increase difficulty for multiplayer would be enemy scaling to player number. Borderlands 2 did it, Diablo 3 did it, I don't see why Warframe shouldn't. Though the buff should be less to the enemy health (no one likes bullet sponges) and more to increasing enemy spawns, like twice as many Heavies and Ancients for a 4 player team compared to a solo player.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

This is a problem with Rollers as well; the challenge they impart on players is based entirely on an unfun mechanic, stunlocking, and should be changed to allow multiple means of harassing players rather than one that doesn't benefit anyone's fun or present a surmountable challenge to deliver that feeling of fun to the player.

 

Stunlocking on its own, when implemented properly, is actually ok.

 

In concept, it is the same as this http://youtu.be/LlHFg-0eA0A?t=13s

 

The idea is for your teammates to save you by killing the thing that is stunlocking you.

 

But I do understand that this makes them non-viable in solo play.

 

Perhaps remove them from solo play or introduce AI companions (I agree this takes time and resources to make but it can be a side project and implemented in a later time)?

Edited May 16, 2013 by OoKeNnEtHoO

[MoonicusMaximus]

I don't want to get too off-topic, but...

 

Okay, I will admit, Shield Lancers having to move their shields to the side in order to shoot you is REALLY dumb. I laugh every time they do that when there's another Lancer hiding behind them before I nail them both with one Paris arrow. However, as I've said, they shouldn't have a shield that completely covers every inch of them from the front, as that makes solo attempts against them incredibly hard. The shield size is fine as it is, they just need to turn faster towards players. I mean, they are just medium units, and with a small shield, it's justified that they can turn to face whatever direction the closest player is to them instantaneously even. And yes their AI needs buffing. Oh and let's not forget the fact that, despite taking cover behind them, lancers and troopers still have to STAND UP to shoot you most of the time, making the mobile cover pointless. It'd be interesting if they could recognize being covered by a shield lancer (or a riot cop as i like to call them) and will stay crouched while sticking his rifle out from the side to potshot at you, making the mobile cover actually effective.

 

I don't agree with balancing things from a solo perspective. Warframe is currently built around having, at the very least, 2 or more players. Two players can make a full-body shielded Shield Lancer a challenging but surmountable enemy through use of diversion and flanking. Of course, it would be easier with 4, and more difficult with 1 (you would have to try sneaking up on the Shield Lancer).

 

Until their shield covers the full front of their body, at all times, even when attacking me, other players and myself can continue treating them with the same regard as regular cannon-fodder Lancers, because at most the time needed to line up an accurate shot to pop his skullcap is an extra second or so, at best. Right now, I don't distinguish Shield Lancers from regular Lancers in any meaningful way. I want to have to distinguish them from crowds of Grineer and be forced to consider my options if I don't want that Shield Lancer to cause me more trouble.

 

Heavy Gunners are essentially buffed versions of regular Lancers, what more would you expect? If one does manage to flank you (it's happened to me before due to stupid spawns) they CAN be extremely devastating since even my super-modded glaive, which can kill even level 50 crewmen in one throw, can't two-shot them even with headshots. I suppose their real excessive weakness is that being hit by ANYTHING will make them stop shooting, despite them not actually flinching visibly. I'm serious, when a Heavy starts shooting at me, if i plink them (not even on the head) with my Lex, they just mysteriously stop. They don't stagger, they don't flinch, they just stop shooting for a bit. I could understand the Heavies visibly flinching or staggering if they get shot in the head by a Lex, Snipetron or Paris, extremely high powered precision weapons like that, or under sustained headshots by rifles, but otherwise they should just keep firing away. Plus, they're heavies, you shouldn't expect them to be able to move fast enough to flank you out of cover (bizarre spawn locations not included), they seem more fitting for providing sustained cover fire for regular Lancers to move in for the flanking. THAT would be a good AI upgrade wouldn't it?

 

I expect a super-heavy unit with a minigun to actually provide me a reason to avoid being out of cover and in its direct line of fun. If a Heavy Gunner managed to flank you without you or your teammates noticing, I don't see a problem with it having the advantage of getting a full spiel of minigun fire on your unaware bottom, at least enough to immediately make you realize your mistake and give you a very short amount of time to react to it.

 

Right now, Heavy Gunners don't come at nearly a high enough frequency to be considered a basic "souped up" Lancer. Their infrequency of appearance warrants that of a unit that should fundamentally change my gameplay experience and present me with a variable challenge. In the case of the Heavy Gunner, they should make it so that my normal flying and flipping around, meleeing everything and not caring about taking fire while out in the open, would no longer be a valid tactic as the Gorgon-equipped Heavy Gunner should be able to tear me apart if I stay in its direct line of fire. Heavy Gunners should not be affected by cold mods, which nearly doubles the already super-slow movements and fire-rates. Heavy Gunners should not flinch when being shot at, stopping their gunfire entirely. Heavy Gunners should not stop firing if I duck into cover for a fraction of a second, allowing me to abuse the resetting their Gorgon spin-up. Heavy Gunners should make me worried about their presence in the center of a room, and should warrant my full attention if I want to avoid the heavy damage a large, slow, mini gun-wielding enemy should be providing for its allies.

 

Right now, Heavy Gunners are as I said; units that impart very little actual damage to you in a 1-on-1, and as a result end up lasting a grand total of 1-2 seconds longer than a normal Lancer would. Is that that as a problem, especially considering how rarely they are seen in comparison to Lancers.

 

And, as I've always said before, currently the game's difficulty is actually perfectly fitted for solo play only. I usually exclusively solo, even on Ceres/Eris/Pluto, though I recently played a few rounds with one to two friends, and the difference in difficulty is VERY significant. The easiest way to increase difficulty for multiplayer would be enemy scaling to player number. Borderlands 2 did it, Diablo 3 did it, I don't see why Warframe shouldn't. Though the buff should be less to the enemy health (no one likes bullet sponges) and more to increasing enemy spawns, like twice as many Heavies and Ancients for a 4 player team compared to a solo player.

 

The problem is fundamental gameplay mechanics, not numbers. I agree that a scaling enemy system would be beneficial to Warframe, but right now, enemy behavior and AI are what is making them so uneventful to fight, not their numbers or damage/health ratios.

[RealityMachina]

 

 

I don't agree with balancing things from a solo perspective. Warframe is currently built around having, at the very least, 2 or more players.

Which is why there's no solo mode.

 

Wait a minute...

 

I mean, if you want to argue for co-op only enemies that are designed well, that's one thing. I wouldn't even mind seeing that. But as long as there is a solo mode DE has shown no signs of wanting to remove, any major gameplay changes, barring specific ones like the aforementioned co-op only enemies, is going have to deal with having to be balanced for solo players.

Edited May 16, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Maeka]

As much I am annoyed at rollers as the next guy I think your poll was poorly implemented as the question is phrased incorrectly. There should have been four cattagories; remove them, don't change them, nerf them, and buff them. As the "tweak" could mean either buff, or nerf.

 

 

Yep I agree with this. The poll is pretty skewed because of the lack of options honestly. Giving people an option to have them or not have them, well most people get annoyed by them so it's obvious that one is going to have a majority vote.  Also it's about constructive criticism. Instead of talking about removing them or keeping them, offer the scenarios of changing them. No devs are going to take this seriously unless it had more opinions on how to change or fix it.

[Madotsuki]

Yep I agree with this. The poll is pretty skewed because of the lack of options honestly. Giving people an option to have them or not have them, well most people get annoyed by them so it's obvious that one is going to have a majority vote.  Also it's about constructive criticism. Instead of talking about removing them or keeping them, offer the scenarios of changing them. No devs are going to take this seriously unless it had more opinions on how to change or fix it.

Note that the question is whether you want to TWEAK or remove it. And discussing ways to tweak them, what do you think this thread is even for? Why do you think i even left 3 suggestions in my OP post, and asked for more discussion? At the end of the day, 80+% of players want Rollers either changed or removed, as shown by the poll. It WOULD have been better to split the tweak and remove options into two separate ones, but it still doesn't change the fact that DE needs to do something about Rollers.

[Roaran7]

The rollers themselves are fine... in the sense that they do what they are intended to do.  They become a distraction and a hindrance to the player.  However, the Grineer aren't really intelligent about deploying them, and there are often too many in the wrong situations.

 

First of all, the roller should stay as they are, but how they are used should be changed.  The frequency of deployment should change ( a reduction in the # of Grineer that deploy them is sufficient to accomplish this ), but also increase the aggressiveness of the Grineer troops when they are deployed.  Often times you will first see the rollers coming and destroy them before any Grineer show up.  Right now the rollers are just those annoying balls and not a real threat to anyone.  It would be more interesting if they actually would help the Grineer turn a losing engagement into a dangerous one for the player.

 

Basically turn the balls into actual challenging threats as opposed to having them as seemingly pointless and annoying balls.

[MoonicusMaximus]

Which is why there's no solo mode.

 

Wait a minute...

 

I mean, if you want to argue for co-op only enemies that are designed well, that's one thing. I wouldn't even mind seeing that. But as long as there is a solo mode DE has shown no signs of wanting to remove, any major gameplay changes, barring specific ones like the aforementioned co-op only enemies, is going have to deal with having to be balanced for solo players.

 

Read what I've written. Warframe is a game built around multiplayer, not singleplayer. The fact that the option is there to solo does not instantly mean that all aspects of the game are built to facilitate solo-mode. The multiplayer option is on by default, while the strictly solo option is the last option on the list; while that's not very indicative of the intent, it is a pretty good clue as to what DE expects from players who play Warframe. Which is why, currently, there are no differences in the spawn rates of a level when you have 1 player or when you have 4 and very little difference in enemy difficulty, which is mostly health from what I've seen.

 

If anything, DE needs to continue working towards a multiplayer model, not a singleplayer one. In this type of game, longevity is increased due to its multiplayer aspects, while individual players who only play solo will find that the game is lacking as it is not catered specifically towards them in terms of difficulty or content. With that said, however, I am in favor of DE delivering a balancing system based on players present that makes approaching the game from a solo perspective just as dynamic, but that should NOT take away anything from the multiplayer aspect which, in this case of the general non-difficulty of the enemy types, seems to be promoting.

Edited May 16, 2013 by MoonicusMaximus

[muccmaster]

They need some debugging. Rollers constantly get stuck, in some grinner defense missions they can get stuck on the core and become almost invulnerable to damage. They could also use a bit of a nerf. Either the stun they cause should be shortened (also add a cooldown until you can be stunned again to prevent stunlock) or their attacks shouldn't stun 100% of the time.

[drunkpunk222]

I want any mobs to make game more chalanging, i not feel rollers a problem, they ar too easy too.

[TheaMatticks]

Just a note about difficult vs. challenging.  Rollers, at the moment, aren't really what I would call hard.  They are simply irritating and frustrating.  There isn't a skillful way to deal with them half the time.

 

Situations such as rollers chain stunning you to death isn't a situation where a skillful player could get out of it.  If you're being chainstunned to the point where you physically cannot do anything, that isn't a question of challenge.  It's stupidity.  Granted this doesn't happen very often, but it just shouldn't EVER happen where you walk around a corner and then slowly die, unable to do anything.  This isn't an argument for co-op play either.  If you want to design an enemy that does that with the express purpose of forcing co-op, fine, but this is just a property of the roller resulting in something stupid.  

 

The roller also has no good strategy associated with it (besides standing on a box, lol). The problem is that they behave erratically.  Sometimes, they're stupidly easy because the AI gets bogged down or something and they just come to a dead stop.  Other times, they're rather normal and attack in you, heading out in straight lines and coming back in, giving you an opportunity to shoot them.  and quite often, I find that they stay right next to me, barely moving a foot past before curving and hitting me again.

 

As far as I can see, the Op isn't asking them to be made easier.  They said that there was something wrong with rollers and they need to be tweaked.  

Make them harder for all I care, but make them a challenge, not a source of irritation.

Edited May 16, 2013 by therundown

[Emotitron]

When you listen to fools... the mob rules. Forums destroy games.

If you are going into a Grineer mission where you know there will be roller balls, bring a weapon/warframe that is good for dealing with them. They are extremely easy to defeat. If you can't seem to figure it out, run up a wall and cling to it and shoot them while wall hanging. Or just run and shoot backwards, or when you hear them near roll away then turn around and shoot them, or get on top of something, or use your warframes AOE ability, or slashdash/charge, or do a melee slide attack into them... etc etc etc.

If you stand in place trying to shoot them you will definitely get owned. Try a different tactic, that is the fun of games.

Please use the forums to suggest new content ideas, not to try and remove what little content there already is because you haven't bother to try to get better. If that is insulting sorry, but the controls on this game aren't that complicated and are the standard controls used in all fps and tps games. If roller balls are giving you trouble you need to spend a little time mastering movement as well as running and gunning. That or ask for them to add some kind of difficulty settings so players still getting the hang of it can do it on an easier setting. Don't ask them to remove the only remotely challenging content in the game, as there are more players who are looking for challenges than players looking for easy wins.

-- sidenote: Polls are usually worthless. You will get a completely different answer depending where it was posted and how it was advertised. If you put the same poll up on NPR and Fox News - you can expect dramatically opposite results. Most polls mean nothing.

Edited May 16, 2013 by Emotitron

[Ralthor]

3.      Allow players to bat/smack away Rollers with their melee weapon by blocking in their direction. Smacking it into a wall briefly stuns it, smacking it into an enemy staggers the enemy. This gives the block ability a purpose and is also cool and fun as hel

 

That sounds amazing.