Poll Results-86.9% Of Players Want Rollers Tweaked/removed

[MJ12]

Wow!  So yeah, using any of the widely known pollsters like Gallup and Rasmussen to predict elections is about as effective as having the weatherman predict the weather a month out.  I think that is something that we all can relate to, heh!!!

You say this but you would be objectively wrong.

Basically every one of those well-known polls managed to get things right insofar as their predictions were within the margin of error of their sample size. This is despite Gallup's demonstrable ® bias in the 2012 election. Even with its metholodogy creating such a bias you got accurate-ish numbers. What makes you insist that a basic statistical tenet has to be absolutely wrong?

You'd be right if the poll was neck and neck but with such an overwhelming landslide it's very difficult to claim "insufficient respondents".

[MJ12]

I find this rather ironic considering every post you make is srs bsns. Not in a bad way, though :D

Game design is serious business. Playing videogames shouldn't be.

Arguing is also serious business, if you're gonna support an argument don't half-&#! it.

[LongDraw]

You say this but you would be objectively wrong.

Basically every one of those well-known polls managed to get things right insofar as their predictions were within the margin of error of their sample size. This is despite Gallup's demonstrable ® bias in the 2012 election. Even with its metholodogy creating such a bias you got accurate-ish numbers. What makes you insist that a basic statistical tenet has to be absolutely wrong?

You'd be right if the poll was neck and neck but with such an overwhelming landslide it's very difficult to claim "insufficient respondents".

Are you by chance a politician?  I only ask cause you sound like one right now.

[stacey69]

If you asked for Infested to be removed from the game it would be more for yes than no.

If you asked for more Rare drops it would be more yes than no.

If you asked for more weapon and frame slots for credits it would be more yes than no.

If you asked for free platinum every month it would be more yes than no.

 

The list could go on. Stop asking for nerfs and seriously learn to play the game. This game is not hard. You expect it to be simple in every aspect and it shouldn't be. Every game needs enemies or things within the game that make people stop and think to themselves HOW do I get around this. I used to hate balls of death when I first played Warframe. Now they and the Infested are 2 of the only things that give a challenge in Warframe. 

 

To kill balls of death:

 

Stand still

Let the ball hit you if you must. It can be evaded.

When the ball circles you it will come back at you in a straight line.

Aim just under the ball as it comes towards you.

Press mouse 1.

 

This is all you have to do. In the case of multiple balls. Focus on 1 of them and kill it. Rinse and repeat.

 

Take your time. Don't get all flustered and annoyed or you will miss all the time and get even more annoyed.

 

If you cant do this. Hit your ultimate spell and save all of your energy for balls of death.

 

This game is one of the easiest games you will ever find online. Asking for it to be made even easier is unreal. If you are having problems please ask other players how to deal with a situation. You will find a lot of help on the forums and in region/council chat.

 

If this game gets any easier many will just walk away from it. We have no end game as it is and the only challenges people face are the ones people are screaming at for nerfs. I'm sure they will change the balls to be more user friendly or maybe less on screen at 1 time because people obviously hate them. Where does this stop though? Ancients with less health and no knockdown and cant take energy?. Poison ancients affecting shields first and not health? Grineer with no rate of fire what so ever? Tiny maps so people cant get lost? 100% drops on everything rare or blueprints?

 

Please be careful asking for changes. Sometimes the backlash is bad. DE's attitude has always been "everything has a trade off" They will take 1 thing away and only add something else. Something maybe worse. And stop farming Kappa! there's much more to the game than XP farming mobile defense. I know this is why your complaining because you hardly see balls of death anywhere else.

 

Nerf XP in mobile defense on Kappa ! lets vote ...

[Hueminator]

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but if roller need to be tweak, make them bigger with more HP

[MJ12]

Are you by chance a politician?  I only ask cause you sound like one right now.

 

Are you by chance a politician? Because changing the subject with an ad hominem is exactly what a politician would do when caught in an untenable position.

[RealityMachina]

You say this but you would be objectively wrong.

Basically every one of those well-known polls managed to get things right insofar as their predictions were within the margin of error of their sample size. This is despite Gallup's demonstrable ® bias in the 2012 election. Even with its metholodogy creating such a bias you got accurate-ish numbers. What makes you insist that a basic statistical tenet has to be absolutely wrong?

You'd be right if the poll was neck and neck but with such an overwhelming landslide it's very difficult to claim "insufficient respondents".

 

Hell, Nate Silver used these sort of polls (after accounting for actual bias) to succesfully predict all 35 Senate races, and 49 out of 50 states for the 2012 elections, wasn't it?

[Mercathin]

I need to prove it is rigged? No, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not the critic.

 

I need to show the premise, opt-in surveys are accurate measurement tools, which lead the conclusion, "86.9% Of Players Want Rollers Tweaked/removed" is incorrect.

 

I'll use AAPOR instead: http://www.aapor.org/opt_in_surveys_and_margin_of_error1.htm

 

'Surveys based on self-selected volunteers do not have that sort of known relationship to the target population and are subject to unknown, non-measurable biases. Even if opt-in surveys are based on probability samples drawn from very large pools of volunteers, their results still suffer from unknown biases stemming from the fact that the pool has no knowable relationships with the full target population.'

 

You cannot have a accurate result from unknowns and non-measurable variences. This renders the conclusion as unsound.

[MJ12]

I need to prove it is rigged? No, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim, not the critic.

 

I need to show the premise, opt-in surveys are accurate measurement tools, which lead the conclusion, "86.9% Of Players Want Rollers Tweaked/removed" is incorrect.

 

I'll use AAPOR instead: http://www.aapor.org/opt_in_surveys_and_margin_of_error1.htm

 

'Surveys based on self-selected volunteers do not have that sort of known relationship to the target population and are subject to unknown, non-measurable biases. Even if opt-in surveys are based on probability samples drawn from very large pools of volunteers, their results still suffer from unknown biases stemming from the fact that the pool has no knowable relationships with the full target population.'

 

You cannot have a accurate result from unknowns and non-measurable variences. This renders the conclusion as unsound.

 

Okay you've proven the poll's margin of error is higher. Now prove that it's at least +/-37%, because the actual conclusion is "a majority of players want Rollers to be changed and/or fixed". The conclusion is sound based on the fact that it would be exceedingly unlikely that you're seeing a completely unrepresentative sample to this degree. What AAPOR is saying is that the results suffer from unknown biases. Except... we actually know the biases here.

 

Wiki-users are generally:

 

1. More invested gamers (higher average skill)

 

which, given that most of the people who defend Rollers consider the problem one of player skill, would imply:

 

2. A bias towards keeping Rollers in the game

 

and the thread that the poll was advertised in had only a bare handful of posters, meaning:

 

3. The thread would not have biased the results significantly

 

Read your link. It doesn't say "self-selected polls are useless", it says "it is impossible to estimate the error of self-selected polls", but when the error margin has to be +/-38% for the poll to be worthless and it has to be +/-20% for the conclusion that a 2/3rds supermajority wants Rollers changed/removed is even wrong, such error is unlikely at best.

 

Again, if this was 50-50, I wouldn't trust it, but it's not even close to 50-50 and if you want to claim it's rigged you should prove it. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You made the claim "this is rigged". Now prove it. Prove these unknown biases create a +/-38% margin of error in the poll. Else it just sounds like a sore loser trying to claim that a landslide result is rigged against them.

[Spriggs]

Just a reminder: While it is great to see a well thought out and supported argument, let's keep it civil. The last thing we want is this whole thing degenerating into unnecessary name-calling and insulting. Remember to keep things respectful and civil, and continue to be constructive. We're all in this to help the community, and the game, improve!

[Haserath]

I hit rollers with my Paris plently. Don't tell me you can hit them with a shotgun or automatic rifle.

Much of the time they line up for an attack and are coming straight toward you. Infected can actually be harder to hit because the chargers can be fairly random at times.

The game would be more fun if they included enemies that were harder to kill then the standard 'sit and shoot' enemies. I like pvp because people are random(not in this game, of course)!

I could post a video of how to take care of them in a little while if you want.

[Mercathin]

I am sorry, but when have I said it was rigged? I literally looked through my post history to check. My wording was based off your response to my initial post. Where you said I had to prove it was rigged, or something to that effect. Your post was on page 8, bottom if you need to review it.

 

I never made any claims it was rigged, and has absolutely no bearing on my points that it is deductively unsound and inaccurately portrays the player base via misrepresentation.

 

And for future reference, I was among the non-votes that were unaccounted for. That makes me not a sore loser but rather an unrepresented member of the player base. Whom conclusions were drawn upon based off improper polling.

[Spriggs]

Sounds like this could be better handled with an official poll. I'll be linking this thread to either DESteve or DERebecca and ask if they could look into doing a poll for this.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Spriggs

[MJ12]

I am sorry, but when have I said it was rigged? I literally looked through my post history to check. My wording was based off your response to my initial post. Where you said I had to prove it was rigged, or something to that effect. Your post was on page 8, bottom if you need to review it.

 

I never made any claims it was rigged, and has absolutely no bearing on my points that it is deductively unsound and inaccurately portrays the player base via misrepresentation.

 

And for future reference, I was among the non-votes that were unaccounted for. That makes me not a sore loser but rather an unrepresented member of the player base. Whom conclusions were drawn upon based off improper polling.

 

So why are you mentioning this stuff unless you're trying to stir up Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt? Again, if you didn't think it was rigged and weren't a sore loser, you'd have zero reason to go around randomly going "THIS POLL IS TOTALLY WORTHLESS". Not "this poll has an unknown amount of error in it" which is true but largely irrelevant, That's literally your first post in the thread. My response was "unless you can show it was actually rigged that's just FUD", which still stands. So you're one of the non-votes who was 'unaccounted' for? A poll not covering 100% of the population of Warframe may not account for every person's opinion.

 

Again, the margin of error on that poll would have to be +/-20%. Twenty percent. For the conclusion that a supermajority of players want Rollers changed or outright gone to be potentially incorrect. It would have to be almost 40% for the conclusion that a majority of players want Rollers changed or outright gone to be potentially incorrect.

 

Your links do not say what you think they say, all they say is that "self-selected polls may have higher error rates and unknown biases", except as I explained repeatedly, those biases are almost certainly in favor of the losing side, i.e. the poll's error is probably overestimating the losers' share of the vote in a true unbiased poll. We know things about gamer populations and what active gamers generally do, i.e. "read wikis", whereas more casual gamers, who will find Rollers far more frustrating and thus be more inclined to want their removal, are unlikely to read wikis or go on forums, they'll just quit.

Edited May 15, 2013 by MJ12

[GraalOhOtonami]

Right now I'm laughing at these idiots who don't know a representive study when they see one.

Psychological studies are considered highly generalisable and representative if they have over 300 people in for an entire country.

Go back to school and do your research, the fact that rollers are the most deadly enemies in the game (other than Ancient Disruptors, which are TONS more fun and satisfying to kill) means they either need a nerf, or everything else need a massive buff.

Having to use an uber or Overheat just to stop one roller from stun locking me in a corner is not good design or gameplay.

While O love the concept of a roller, I prefer the roller grenades and even the Nervos, as they strike the fear of god into anyone against Grineer. If they had a limited stun period, I'd be happy as hell to welcome them back with open arms, gladly punting the rollers down an incineration chute.

[crow-k]

so 80% of 1million people took this poll? Are you running for govenor somewhere? Do you think standing outside the goodwill shop asking people if taxes are too high is what you should base your position on during your campaign?

 

Also, the fact that you are using polls to beggar DE into changing something you should know how to overcome is a hell of a thing. They are smal lfast moving targets. Increase your skill, choose a better WF,what ever you like. Polling a small group of people is a great way to represent the people. It is used in politics and petitions and such. Most of these debators are likely college educated and have at last found something their entry level classes prepared them for. Good to see it being used. In the end, though, you have made your point, valid or invalid that the rollers need to be changed. I think there is a really good chance DE has seen it, now leave off the bickering.

Edited May 15, 2013 by crow-k

[Mercathin]

The title says that 86.9% of players want rollers changed, I came in to see the math behind it and see how the player base was represented. I found it lacking and discussed my position on the poll, the topic of conversation. I have remained on topic.

 

Had you phrased the title differently, I would have easily let it slide. As presented, I cannot as it is inaccurate.

 

@Spriggs, Wonderful idea, while the poll may have no definite outcome, it does show a healthy interest in the topic. I however feel a petition would of been more appropriate. This is actually a good use for this poll as it stands.

 

@GraalOhOtonami, Correlation doesn't equal causation. 300 people, under the right circumstances can be representative. 300 people however does not make it innately representative. There are other factors to account for.

[Timmuk]

Yes this make this game even more easy......

 

add in harder content, and content that you need to be smart about, and if you die...... so what? If i never died in this game it would be boring, and the fact is unless I do mobile def missions that are a big higher level than what I should be doing, its really tough to die.... its starting to lean towards boring

 

Add in harder mobs please!

[Thustra]

Why not just give rollers a gun instead of their current stun attack? That way they are still a minor danger but without the annoyance of the game's stun mechanic?

[GraalOhOtonami]

@Mercathin

This isn't a correlational study...

This is a statistical test based on subjective opinions, not a test of causality.

@Thustra

Think of how it would look...

Though on second thought, the idea of a fast-moving and small mini-turret would be interesting if it were well designed.

It would have to move quickly while peppering you with weak but accurate fire, stopping to fire a burst before zipping away again.

[LongDraw]

@Mercathin

This isn't a correlational study...

This is a statistical test based on subjective opinions, not a test of causality.

@Thustra

Think of how it would look...

Though on second thought, the idea of a fast-moving and small mini-turret would be interesting if it were well designed.

It would have to move quickly while peppering you with weak but accurate fire, stopping to fire a burst before zipping away again.

I'm envisioning a Star Wars style black 4 wheel bot with a miniature mini gun :P

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

If I were to tweak rollers I would give tenno a chance to counter them as they attack, sort of like stealth kills so when they jump up in hedgehog mode "press X to counter" appears for a second. What this would do is still lock you in the spot for as long as the stun would but you attack the roller with the melee of your choice, slashing, striking or punching clean through the roller mid air. It would be visually interesting and give players a chance in situations where multiple rollers have gotten the jump on them and are stunlocking them to hell.

[DaveC]

I'm happy with the rollers the way they are and simply shoot the annoying ones.

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I actually wrote this on another post regarding the enemies in the game.

 

 

The most challenging enemies I have ever seen in 4 player coop games are in Payday: The Heist and Left 4 Dead series.

 

http://payday.wikia.com/wiki/Taser - Stun and make you lose all your ammo the longer you stay stunned. Only teammate can save you by killing it or if you aim at it while he makes you lose your bullets by firing wildly.

 

http://payday.wikia.com/wiki/Shield - Same as Grineer Shield except his AI make you unable to take him out alone since he points his shield at you all the time.

 

http://payday.wikia.com/wiki/Cloaker - One hit KO you. Only salvation is for teammate to kill him.

 

http://payday.wikia.com/wiki/Bulldozer - Only has head as weakspot and has freaking high damage.

 

Every single one of them and even the normal cannon fodder can kill any player easily and only way to beat them is to cooperate with others.

 

 

Left 4 Dead series enemies are pretty challenging too.

 

http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Boomer - Makes you think before you shoot wildly at anything that moves.

 

http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hunter - One hit KO you. Only salvation is for teammate to kill him.

 

http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Smoker - Stuns you. Only salvation is for teammate to shoot its tongue or shoot it dead.

 

http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tank -  Only weakness is fire.

 

http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Charger - Stuns you. Only salvation is for teammate to kill him.

 

http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Jockey - Stuns you and make you go towards enemies. Only salvation is for teammate to kill him.

 

http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/The_Spitter - Prevents camping and make you think before you shoot at anything that moves wildly.

 

http://left4dead.wikia.com/wiki/Witch - One hit KO you. Only salvation is for teammate to kill him.

 

 

If you noticed by now.

 

All these enemies require coop play or more than one person to be dispatched easily.

 

They also emphasizes accuracy over damage on the part of the player. In other words, you can have the most damaging weapon in the whole game but if your aim is bad, it makes no difference.

 

The reason why Warframe isn't challenging enough now for some people is because none of the current enemies require teamwork to dispatch.

 

As long as you have a fully modded set of supercharged weapons and frame, able to deal out large amounts of damage, you can pretty much kill any individual one of them on your own.

 

However, to include enemies of this level of difficulty that requires coop, you must allow AI companions in SOLO play because otherwise, SOLO play becomes impossible.

 

Perhaps rollers are meant to be dispatched by teammates and not by yourself?

 

The current roller indeed does have a pretty short time of exposure to be killed and coupled with relatively small size, I can understand how it can be difficult to kill it.

 

However, the only thing I personally feel that should be changed, if at all, is the time of exposure and that's it.

[RealityMachina]

One will also note that the co-op required enemies in L4D and Payday are not utterly silly compared to everything else.

 

The Witch is a horrifying mutation of someone who has been infected, that thankfully for our heroes occurs very rarely in female homo sapiens. The Cloaker is basically a retired special ops guy who's rolling with the city's local SWAT team, and used to work for the LAPD, judging from the "beats downed crew members with a nightstick if none of the other crew are around" sentence. The rollers are fast metal balls that are apparently the biggest threat out of the hordes of clone space marines that the Tenno fight.

 

Like, if rollers were instead...I dunno, a grineer surgically implanted in a badass exo suit that has like, the durability of a grineer heavy gunner (or even more!), but instead of a gorgon dude has a flamethrower and keeps closing into you into CQB, neccsitating someone acts like bait while everybody else tries to take him down, they would not only probably be less annoying but would actually make sense that the Tenno are having more difficulty than this, along with fitting the general theme of the Grineer having this "The flesh is weak, but we can fix that." mentality for their soldiers.