Solution For Press-4-To-Win Without Nerfs (Now With 100% More Manics)

[shirokoi]

I've had this thought ever since the Grineer Manic came out and crushed out hopes and dreams. Why don't we make it so that there's a hidden counter for players who:

A) Repeated spams their ultimate ability over a short period of time.

B) Kills a vast number of enemies using any ability. (Doesn't specifically apply to ultimates)

The consequences is that whenever this counter reaches a certain point, a Grineer Manic or a similar enemy will spawn to specifically target this player. The higher the counter goes, the higher level the Manic and the higher the possibility to spawn multiple Manics at once.

This will not only lower the need to nerf abilities but adds another layer of gameplay, where you have to choose wisely to spam ultimates and wipe out the current enemies and risk spawning assassin-type enemies that will endanger your team. Plus, it fits in with the lore of the Manic, with the masks it wears on its back being those of fallen allies. Any thoughts?

Edited April 25, 2015 by shirokoi

[Nagasadri]

Seems cool, but needs adjustments.

For Trinities for exemple...more manics = more low health allies = more ult spams = EVEN MORE MANICS.

[7grims]

You almost got it right, but no.

 

If the solution was, you spam 10 Y abilities during less then 30 seconds, enemies gain resistance to abilities, then yah, that would be a good solution.

Edited April 25, 2015 by 7grims

[shirokoi]

You almost got it right, but no.

If the solution was, you spam 10 Y abilities during less then 30 seconds, enemies gain resistance to abilities, then yah, that would be a good solution.

In theory this diminishing returns mechanic would work certainly during short term missions. But what about long &#! survival and other endless missions where abilities will be used a ton no matter what? You'll eventually reach a point where abilities do absolutely nothing to the enemies.

EDIT: Just to clarify, what I mean is that I don't think it'll be in DE's best interest to make abilities useless or ineffective at any point, since that just limits gameplay. The Manics idea is just a way to keep abilities 100% usable without nerfing or limiting ability usage.

Edited April 25, 2015 by shirokoi

[shirokoi]

Seems cool, but needs adjustments.

For Trinities for exemple...more manics = more low health allies = more ult spams = EVEN MORE MANICS.

Of course, abilities that just aren't press4towin by nature would probably be excluded, like how you mentioned with Trinity's Blessing (although I don't think I've ever seen anyone spam it like Radial Javalin or Miasma). I think a few others that'd go under this category would include Limbo's Cataclysm and a few others I can't name off the top of my head.

[7grims]

In theory this diminishing returns mechanic would work certainly during short term missions. But what about long ! survival and other endless missions where abilities will be used a ton no matter what? You'll eventually reach a point where abilities do absolutely nothing to the enemies.

EDIT: Just to clarify, what I mean is that I don't think it'll be in DE's best interest to make abilities useless or ineffective at any point, since that just limits gameplay. The Manics idea is just a way to keep abilities 100% usable without nerfing or limiting ability usage.

 

The way I suggested, was not for forever loss of ability effectiveness, only wile the tenno are spamming like crazy.

The loss of effectiveness would perhaps be during a Y amount of time, or only to the present/alive enemies.

 

The maniac idea is good, but, like mentioned above by nagasadri, that would only lead to more spam only to kill them all faster/easier.

 

 

EDIT:

here is an example of what I'm speaking, it was posted on the update log U16.4

 

"Gradual Change: Diminishing Returns vs Pure Ability Immunity

 

For those unfamiliar with the term, diminishing returns is when an ability become less and less effective against an enemy over time. When we original designed bosses and minibosses, a lot of them had pure ability immunity making your Warframe’s abilities ineffective in battle. We’ve slowly been experimenting with ‘diminishing returns’. Many bosses and minibosses in Warframe were affected by diminishing returns, including Captain Vor, Lephantis, the Grustrag Three, and more.  Instead of being outright immune to crowd control these bosses will gain improved resistance to them with each successive use.

 

This Update expands the number of Warframe powers that fall under diminishing returns to the new Bursas. With this change we will monitor power use across each Warframe to ensure that every form of crowd control is given fair play against enemies, whether the Ability is timer-based or relies on energy drain."

Edited April 26, 2015 by 7grims

[087SE-Miykhail]

At least an smart topic comes from times to times.

Well, DE is thinking on it on a good way, we have nullifiers, and maniacs.

We actually need to have strong mobs between trash ones, forcing players to kill him using weapom and strategy, bursas are a good start too, they are very annoy and resistent, and big pool of life.

4 Should be make to get rid of the mass of trash mobs, and open the patch to kill the big boys.

[RealPandemonium]

It's like this community can't even imagine a game without bandaids on bandaids anymore.

[Renkai141]

Why not just overheat?
like legit, if u spam like 10 abilities ur warframe locks into a mode that u can't use powers for 5 seconds or so.
If that was the case, literealy overheating ur WF seems to be the way. No mods to cure it,  u have to accept those 5 seconds.

 

Also, overheat as in. Using any abilities within the 5 second mark will start the count. Yea, one can just wait 5 seconds and do it again.
But then it won't be spam by then, will it?

[Heidrek]

There are multiple ways to deal with this like...

-lowering efficiency with each continuous use 

-lowering power strength with each continuous use

-lowering frames stamina and sprinting speed after continuous use

-lowering energy pool after spamming, but slowly fixes itself. Idea here is that spamming will punish the energy pool severely, but maybe the emergency 2 time ulti will save your life, but not restrict your energy pool too severely 

[nekrojiji]

you can always make the enemies develop a gradual resistence to the AOE damage.

[Mimibomber]

How about .... wait for it .... NO.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

That is a interesting idea. And I think it would be really cool in high level gameplay. In low level gameplay it might get too much for new players.

 

And lower level gameplay is where P4TW is most noticeable and probably the biggest problem.

 

However P4TW is a much deeper issue. More manics isn't going to solve it unfortunately.

 

I recommend you check this out: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/443603-p4tw-vs-reality/

 

Its a fuckin long post but worth reading if you are serious. At least skip to the solution suggestions section.

 

Feel free to steal anything you like :)

 

Edit: Like I said I like the idea (+1), just in general, like a reaper appearing in gauntlet legends. Corpus & infested should have one too.

But this wont stop P4TW. Any changes will just hit players and restrict gameplay but it will not effect the deeper issues that cause P4TW and make it a problem.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[(PSN)SancticuS]

Or people could just play the way they like themself and stop masterminding how everybody else should play.

[tiduseQ]

The current meta (at least clearly seen in defence missions) is 4 spam ;) . Simple as it is... I don't like it, I like shooting way more. But AoE ulti is the current meta at my level (Just missions, alerts, low lvl void).

[7grims]

Why not just overheat?

like legit, if u spam like 10 abilities ur warframe locks into a mode that u can't use powers for 5 seconds or so.

If that was the case, literealy overheating ur WF seems to be the way. No mods to cure it,  u have to accept those 5 seconds.

 

Also, overheat as in. Using any abilities within the 5 second mark will start the count. Yea, one can just wait 5 seconds and do it again.

But then it won't be spam by then, will it?

 

That is just genial, simple and linear a idea.

The best solutions are always the simpler ones.

 

 

 

How about .... wait for it .... NO.

Or people could just play the way they like themself and stop masterminding how everybody else should play.

 

Ohhh look, the usual suspects, who never add anything useful to any conversation, and keep writing the same old lines.

Edited April 27, 2015 by 7grims

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

 

The best solutions are always the simpler ones.

 

I don't think so... There are several "simple" solutions that are not the best.

I think you might be the referring to the often misrepresented principle, Occam's razor, "competing hypotheses that predict equally well, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected".

 

Or in other words, the solution involving the least amount of assumptions is often correct. Simple is subjective.

As for Overheating its a interesting idea but, as I said above, it will just hit players and restrict gameplay but it will not effect the deeper issues that cause P4TW and make it a problem.

Most P4TW issues are in lower level gameplay against enemies that can be easily killed. Consider damage abilities which only scale through multiple use? They would become utterly useless in higher level gameplay.

As long as it doesn't affect me and mine, how people want to play is their business. If they want to P4TW let em. I think it is best to look at why people are power spamming in the first place.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[Aaira]

B) Kills a vast number of enemies using any ability. (Doesn't specifically apply to ultimates)

No.

 

Please stop trying to turn this rpg/tps hybrid in a S#&$ty tps with some ability gimmicks.

If you don't like the basic gameplay (killing stuff with abilities IS basic gameplay as much as shooting them in the $&*^) play something else.

 

Or are you also going to put something that specifically counters anyone who doesn't use enough skills to kill enemies (because it's tuesday so we have to nerf trinity, somehow)? Are you so &!$$ed off at people actually using the few things that set this game apart from others that you would force players into a specific gamestyle that (i suppose) caters to your personal tastes?

Edited April 27, 2015 by Aaira

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

If you don't like the basic gameplay (killing stuff with abilities IS basic gameplay as much as shooting them in the $&*^) play something else.

 

Agreed. This is pretty standard stuff. And I like it. It makes warframe unique from the CODs, TC Ghosts and the Fallouts. Its like borderlands on steroids.

 

There is something to be said about weapon play but I get your point. So many people play a game centered, literally centered around characters with unique, powerful abilities and then complain about it.

 

Some balance complaints are legit but most P4TW are not.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[vaugahn]

Agreed. This is pretty standard stuff. And I like it. It makes warframe unique from the CODs, TC Ghosts and the Fallouts. Its like borderlands on steroids.

 

Now, there's something to be said for that, but claiming that standing in a corner with a greedy mag on some low level map is what makes this game unique is just silly. Borderlands has cooldowns, and even if it didn't the abilities are designed in a way to compliment gameplay. There are no radial x-ray nukes or hard multi-target CCs there.

[shirokoi]

No.

 

Please stop trying to turn this rpg/tps hybrid in a S#&$ty tps with some ability gimmicks.

If you don't like the basic gameplay (killing stuff with abilities IS basic gameplay as much as shooting them in the $&*^) play something else.

 

Or are you also going to put something that specifically counters anyone who doesn't use enough skills to kill enemies (because it's tuesday so we have to nerf trinity, somehow)? Are you so &!$$ed off at people actually using the few things that set this game apart from others that you would force players into a specific gamestyle that (i suppose) caters to your personal tastes?

 

Whoa there, no need to be so hostile. There's a civil way to discuss things you know.

 

The whole idea of the Manic Counter is to just add a little bit of variation to gameplay instead of making abilities ineffective or less useful like a ton of other people are suggesting. You can still spam abilities as much as you want, but isn't it kinda dull to completely wipe out a map over and over again without a single bit of opposition? Throwing in a Manic here and there would add a little more color to the game in my opinion. The Manics are kinda overused anyway, appearing only once per mission or not even appearing at all.

 

How does having a Manic spawn affect your playstyle? Not much, beside having to keep your eye out for a higher-threat enemy every now and again (Eximi don't count, you can slaughter them easily). This idea doesn't nerf abilities, doesn't inhibit your ability to spam abilities, and doesn't add something dumb like a cooldown. I'd rather have this than DE nerf all our frames to the ground. 

[Aaira]

Now, there's something to be said for that, but claiming that standing in a corner with a greedy mag on some low level map is what makes this game unique is just silly. 

Nobody said that.

 

And the problem there's not realy gmag, nor abilities (you can trivialze content just with guns), it's a high level frame on a low level mission, level disparity breaks balance in pretty much any game with absolute upgrades.

 

And frankly the percentage of abilities that compliment gunplay is far higher than the amount of guns that compliment abilityplay.

shirokoi, on 27 Apr 2015 - 5:09 PM, said:

but isn't it kinda dull to completely wipe out a map over and over again without a single bit of opposition?

If you're at a level where missions start to get easy and opposition too weak for you, go to higher level missions or level up new gear.

 

You made me break the quote function.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Aaira

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

Now, there's something to be said for that, but claiming that standing in a corner with a greedy mag on some low level map is what makes this game unique is just silly. Borderlands has cooldowns, and even if it didn't the abilities are designed in a way to compliment gameplay.

 

True. But you and I both know why that is happening. And this solution wont solve that. It will however restrict legit mag players in higher level gameplay.

Borderlands has cooldowns, warframe has cooldowns all warframe abilities are designed to compliment gameplay...

 

I am reassessing my opinion of you vaugahn. Once again it seem every nerf thread there you are, cheering in the name of "balance". Is there anything about warframe you actually like?

 

There are no radial x-ray nukes or hard multi-target CCs there.

 

Haha that makes me laugh. You haven't met Gaige then.

[ItWasntMeIPromise]

Nobody said that.

 

And the problem there's not realy gmag, it's a high level frame on a low level mission, level disparity breaks balance in pretty much any game with absolute upgrade

 

Exactly.

 

If resources were more dispersed and incentives were given to high level players to actually play high level missions this wouldn't be such a problem.

 

As it is everyone is on either earth or Jupiter regardless of rank.

 

If you really want to stop P4TW:

 

Solution Suggestions

 

Revised Resources Locations & Drop Tables

 

Greater dispersal of solar system resources & revised drop tables. (Eximus drop Oberon parts.. only.  A difficult enemy and it only drops 3 items. Other enemies drop a minimum of 10.) Done right this will discourages high level player fighting low level mission and getting bored S#&$less.

 

Extend the Four Reward Rotation Beyond 4 Tiers.

 

At the moment rewards rotation have 4 tiers. You have the same chance of getting the same crappy item in round 1 as you do in round 5. This is ridiculous. Players have NO incentive to challenge themselves. I might as well spam since I'm just going to have to redo the mission again. Rewards are so diluted. Given that there are so many rewards I would like rotations extended to 8 and tiers 5-8 progressively become less diluted with keys, cells, forma and other more common rewards. (Yes that means you get actually rewarded for playing more than 20 mins)

 

Better Coop Scaling

 

At the moment there is a huge difference in coop and solo difficulty.  Something has to be changed here.

 

Mastery Locked Hardmodes

 

Example MR 5 unlock Mercury hardmode, rank 6 unlock Venus and so on. 2x the difficultly better drops and/or rewards. Level are more difficult but rewards are greater. Once high level players are no longer incentivised to play low level mission we will see a decline in P4TW. (This and other tactics to engage loyal players detailed here: https://forums.warfr...ed-key-concept/)

 

More "Tactically Diverse" Enemies

 

At the core of P4TW is the concept of dominant strategy. I do not think warframe suffers from this too much.  This is the theory in which one strategy is so effective it is always used, thus dominant. Because this strategy has no counter and is so often used it becomes formulaic & boring. 

 

Damage 2.0, Eximus, Drak Master and other enemies provide a counter to most formulaic strategies.

 

However Eximus are great but IMO a Band-Aid without more diversity. I think warframe would be improved greatly from more enemies designed to overcome formulaic warframe strategies and keep players on their toes.

 

I'm not saying manic. Manic might as well be a mini boss in some stages. They were a good idea but a shotgun where a scalpel was required IMO.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ItWasntMeIPromise

[fatpig84]

Now, there's something to be said for that, but claiming that standing in a corner with a greedy mag on some low level map is what makes this game unique is just silly. Borderlands has cooldowns, and even if it didn't the abilities are designed in a way to compliment gameplay. There are no radial x-ray nukes or hard multi-target CCs there.

 

My Axton that throws a 100k damage nuclear turret begs to differ.

It blows up people handily through walls too.

 

And of course Maya's phase lock happens to work like Vortex if you skill it correct.

Again your point is moot.

 

In any case i prefer the overheat mechanic than anything else offered here.

You can still spam incredibly quickly, but over spamming can lead to penalties, like spells being less efficient (lower damage or cost more, or less duration), refuse to cast after overheated or even detrimental side effects like health damage.

 

 

So yeah I still stick with overheating.

Yeah you can spam it 3 times in 10 seconds, but more than that and you are going to be in a world of pain.