Does Anyone Else Want More Useful Sniper Rifles And Shotguns?

[hijinks_the_turtle]

I'm sure DE has a lot on their plate in terms of stuff being worked on, but why has it been so long since DE has said anything substantial on sniper rifle and shotgun buffs?  Something more than a small comment, or dodging the question entirely on Devstreams would be nice for once.  I mean, freaking bows work better than either of these weapons in general.  I like sniper weapons, but they're nigh unusable with the scopes that do not help whatsoever.  Not to mention, isn't it time that shotguns get that fall off removed?  At this point in time, we've already got weapons that are stronger than Hek's OP days.

[TwelfthAngel]

I think every one wants snipers and shotguns to be viable.

[Sziklamester]

Snipers and shotties needs some more cover system or just some armor buffs for survivability on high levels.

 

Personaly I like to use my Sobek.

[Aeiroth]

If you want Snipers to be useful, we don't need new weapons or buffs, but new MAPS. Seriously, how many maps is it necessary to hit target from long - very long ranges in this game? I have only found Cerberus to be good for this as a invisibility Loki with a Sniper with some punchthrough and a good spot can lock-down all four points by going for anyone trying to capture the points. Other than that... No use for sniper whatsofrigginever.

[Clovis15]

I'm actually quite happy with my Hek (Scattered Justice), my Tigris, and my Strun Wraith.

[(XBOX)JasonsNightmare]

Compared to the more powerful rifles, all of the shotguns except for the Phage are seriously underpowered at close range, and not even remotely viable at medium range. Even the Phage suffers at close range compared to the Braton Prime. The damage fall off or limited range of shotguns should be balanced with serious damage within those values for effective range.

 

As for snipers, they should all have innate punch through (preferably comparable to the 5m punch through of the Lanka) and should have the same crit chance as the bows, as well as the crit damage of the Soma. Snipers and bows would be better balanced if they dealt about the same damage, with bows leading in maneuverability and close/medium range engagements, and snipers leading in accuracy and long range. This would reduce the need for any major update to the damage of individual snipers, and make long range gameplay more viable on open maps.

 

Speaking of which, where are the open maps? Where are the tight, closed pathways for shotguns and melee? With every map geared towards accurace, full auto, hit-scan weapons, it's no wonder why DE hasn't buffed snipers or shotguns yet. Why? Because if the map forces you to use the Soma or the Braton, then why would it matter that the Vectis is stronger? You wouldn't be able to use it, anyways.

[Ve1indian]

I just want all the current weapons perceived as mastery fodder to get buffed or have prime/wraith/vandal versions that can compete with the Soma or Soma prime tier. More so the second as DE has long since discarded most low rank weapons in favour of new, stronger weapons, making it highly unlikely for low tier weapons to get any reworks/buffs.

[(PSN)DBR87]

Boar Prime has the second highest sustained DPS of all primary weapons at 359.2 and it is only outclassed by the Boltor Prime. Hek, Kohm, Phage, and Boar Prime are all great weapons. They just have 1 common down fall in damage drop off at a distance and bad ammo economy in the case of Boar P and Kohm.  Think Kohm doesn't have a damage fall off though, just horrible ammo economy. The problem with shot guns is the same problem with snipers, and that is practicality. If you really need to take down targets at far range you are better of using a Latron Prime rather than a Vulkar. Kohm and Soma P can take out large amounts of enemies fairly fast but Soma can do it at a distance, Kohm time to kill is increased the further away your targets. It is literally more fundamentally practical to use a rifle in this game than a shot gun or sniper because you rarely engage targets at a distance that warrants a sniper rifle and if you do, a shot gun is weakened or the pellets spread to wide. The fact we have secondary shot guns hurts the use of primary shot guns even further because if you really want to use a Kohm, you can just equip Kohmak.

 

So all considering, the primary shot guns could get a little love I guess but I don't think they are as bad off as Snipers are.

[CrimsonNightSky]

It sounds like the problem is that Rifles are generally 'too good' in how they work across the board at all realistic ranges.

One problem with designing a fix is deciding if 'all weapons should do everything well' or if each weapon type should be designed for a more specific range. 

For example: Having shotguns do more than their listed damage within 5-10 meters but continue to have damage falloff. Having rifles continue working as listed, but with damage falloff after 20-30 meters. Having sniper/marksman rifles have no damage falloff, and/or increased damage after 30 meters.

Without distinguishing effective roles and ranges I'm not sure we'll see the other weapons be more satisfying because the auto-rifles will always do everything and they'll do it with more flexibility.

edit: (but can you imagine the forum whining if rifles get nerfed?)

Edited June 2, 2015 by CrimsonNightSky

[(PSN)DBR87]

It sounds like the problem is that Rifles are generally 'too good' in how they work across the board at all realistic ranges.

One problem with designing a fix is deciding if 'all weapons should do everything well' or if each weapon type should be designed for a more specific range. 

For example: Having shotguns do more than their listed damage within 5-10 meters but continue to have damage falloff. Having rifles continue working as listed, but with damage falloff after 20-30 meters. Having sniper/marksman rifles have no damage falloff, and/or increased damage after 30 meters.

Without distinguishing effective roles and ranges I'm not sure we'll see the other weapons be more satisfying because the auto-rifles will always do everything and they'll do it with more flexibility.

edit: (but can you imagine the forum whining if rifles get nerfed?)

 

I actually like this idea. But it is like you said, if they gave Boltor Prime damage fall off I can only imagine the number of pitch forks rising.

[(XBOX)JasonsNightmare]

(but can you imagine the forum whining if rifles get nerfed?)

 

There would be too many players dropping the game. They would have to literally buff everything up to the level of the rifles in order to keep their player-base happy.

 

I would make the range values for shotguns such that at 20 meters you deal half damage, 10 meters you deal full damage, and at 2 meters heavy gunners are disintegrating.

 

Rifles should definitely have damage fall off. I would prefer 25 meters for full damage, and 50 meters for half damage. I am sure that there are better numbers for this, but that is how I would start.

 

Snipers and launchers should also get their own class of mods. This would make it easier to modify the damage potential of rifles compared to everything else. For example, if you want snipers to have higer critical chance values than rifles, you could make the rifle critical chance mods cap at a total of 120%, and sniper critical chance mods cap at 180% (again, this is an example to explain the idea, and would need to be tweaked further).

[Archistopheles]

DE_Scott is the numbers guy, and right now he's fighting with a little green bar. They'll get to everything eventually (they always do), but it might be awhile.

[Aaira]

Hek's fine imo, better than a lot of rifles.

[Mesyra]

only buffs I can think of is a lot more damage, and a lot better reload.

 

tigris alone needs 1.1 seconds shaved off the reload to bring it to .9

 

vectis needs a prime, and a huge damage buff, AND a way to turn off the S#&$ty scope.

[Ve1indian]

only buffs I can think of is a lot more damage, and a lot better reload.

 

tigris alone needs 1.1 seconds shaved off the reload to bring it to .9

 

vectis needs a prime, and a huge damage buff, AND a way to turn off the S#&$ty scope.

For me, the main issues with shotguns are the reload times, damage, and lack of fixed pellet spread patterns.

 

Reloads

Hek is a bit too slow (should be 1.8)

Strun and Tigris are way too slow (should be 2.2 and 1.0 respectively)

Strun Wraith is a bit too fast (rather have higher damage and 2.2 reload [The 8 shells should make up for it]).

Sobek... I'd prefer 14 clip and 3.0 reload, but this is probably the only reload speed to clip size that makes some sense (20 to 4.0) Unless of course someone is running a high firerate Sobek build then it's way too low.

 

Damage

no damage rampup with insane falloff and the uncommon damage mod being 5 ranks, not 10 (like serration), Plus way too little base damage all around (except argueably the Hek considering it's +200 multishot syndicate mod).

 

Spread Pattern RNG

pellets like to cluster vertically or horizontally often with no way to control it, and it disregards player aim as a determining roll in mid-range senarios (especially with low pellet count shotguns), would be better if each shotgun had a fixed spread that matched its "style". Like Strun/Strun wraith having a circular pattern, Hek having a square pattern, Tigris and Sobek having sideways figure eight patterns, etc.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Vougue

[JuanDeages]

Honestly, I feel like since the addition of primed point blank, there are a few really good shotguns to choose from: Hek, Phage, Boar Prime, Strun Wraith, as others have mentioned. They all deal over 20k burst, and have decent sustained output. Of all of these, the Hek could use a better reload time (as mentioned above), and the Boar Prime, as with all "bullet hose" shotguns (like the khom), should get extra total ammo.

 

Considering the limited pool of shotguns in this game, I think having 4 capable of top tier damage is pretty good. They might need a little extra something, but they seem to be able to hang with the best. And honestly, when people say "Rifles", what they really mean is the Soma and Boltor Prime, because DE doesn't seem to like to make too many high dps automatics. I wish we had more for flavor, but that's for another thread. I don't see any problem with good semi-auto rifles like the latron prime and latron wraith being good.

 

Also, don't mess with my Strun Wraith reload.

 

As for snipers, honestly, I have no clue, I'm not big on snipers.

[Ve1indian]

Honestly, I feel like since the addition of primed point blank, there are a few really good shotguns to choose from: Hek, Phage, Boar Prime, Strun Wraith, as others have mentioned. They all deal over 20k burst, and have decent sustained output. Of all of these, the Hek could use a better reload time (as mentioned above), and the Boar Prime, as with all "bullet hose" shotguns (like the khom), should get extra total ammo.

 

Considering the limited pool of shotguns in this game, I think having 4 capable of top tier damage is pretty good. They might need a little extra something, but they seem to be able to hang with the best. And honestly, when people say "Rifles", what they really mean is the Soma and Boltor Prime, because DE doesn't seem to like to make too many high dps automatics. I wish we had more for flavor, but that's for another thread. I don't see any problem with good semi-auto rifles like the latron prime and latron wraith being good.

 

Also, don't mess with my Strun Wraith reload.

I'm pretty sure even the good shotguns have less burst DPS at close range than rifles built around heavy caliber. Hence why damage ramp-up and slight range increase (like 5-10 meters all around[or just base fall-off ranges it on accuracy]) for shotguns would even the playing field a bit. Right now high RoF weapons are better or equal at all ranges, where shotguns should out damage them within 5-10 meters to compensate for the whole risk factor involved with getting close.

 

Strun Wraith reload is 0.7 secs faster than Hek with 8 shells in a magazine, it would be more useful to have more damage than faster reload (for more burst DPS). And definitely no reload higher than 2.2, that would be way to slow for any shotgun... *cough* Strun *cough*

 

main issue is that burst damage is way too low, and reload (for most shotguns) is way too long compared to their magazine size.

 

Disclaimer: I love the Strun Wraith, mainly for it's high proc, fast reload (though a little too fast for the 8 shells), and slight accuracy increase.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Vougue

[Hochstepanzerjager]

I'm actually quite happy with my Hek (Scattered Justice), my Tigris, and my Strun Wraith.

 

 

Agreed, my Hek pretty much one shots most things I run into, and on top of that, is my go-to gun for special missions and alerts.

[(XBOX)BluAina]

I'm pretty happy with them now I can't imagine them getting buffed, ppl might just say op haha

[Grom-84]

No Damage falloffs for shotguns! Higher clip sizes! reasonable reload times not those 2.4s sheeet!!! 1.5-2 secs max! ammo pickups must be increased from 10 to 20 as well with the drop rate! For sniper rifles - higher magazine size like 12-15 rounds in a clip! Higher drop rates for ammo as well with the  ammo pickups raised from 10 to 12-15! Faster reloading! to make them practical to use.

[JuanDeages]

I'm pretty sure even the good shotguns have less burst DPS at close range than rifles built around heavy caliber. Hence why damage ramp-up and slight range increase (like 5-10 meters all around[or just base fall-off ranges it on accuracy]) for shotguns would even the playing field a bit. Right now high RoF weapons are better or equal at all ranges, where shotguns should out damage them within 5-10 meters to compensate for the whole risk factor involved with getting close.

 

Strun Wraith reload is 0.7 secs faster than Hek with 8 shells in a magazine, it would be more useful to have more damage than faster reload (for more burst DPS). And definitely no reload higher than 2.2, that would be way to slow for any shotgun... *cough* Strun *cough*

 

main issue is that burst damage is way too low, and reload (for most shotguns) is way too long compared to their magazine size.

 

Disclaimer: I love the Strun Wraith, mainly for it's high proc, fast reload (though a little too fast for the 8 shells), and slight accuracy increase.

 

I'm not against a buff to shotguns, but the ones that are viable are underestimated in terms of damage. The Hek and the Boar Prime both have higher burst than any rifle I can think of, including the Latron Wraith, which the Hek can out burst against certain factions. The Phage/Strun Wraith have less raw burst, but deal better sustained damage, so its not too bad.

 

And yeah, most shotguns have reload times that make me scratch my head. Sobek at 4 seconds? That's a joke right?

[Ve1indian]

No Damage falloffs for shotguns! Higher clip sizes! reasonable reload times not those 2.4s sheeet!!! 1.5-2 secs max! ammo pickups must be increased from 10 to 20 as well with the drop rate!

I agree damage fall-off needs to be removed or minmized to the 30-45 meter range. though a damage ramp-up mechanic should be introduced, to make them better than rifles at close range. way faster reloads would match the shotgun aesthetic better, but giving the lower magazine ones higher magazine sizes just makes them glorified semi-auto rifles with less effective range. 20 ammo per pickup would be a good change.

 

I'm not against a buff to shotguns, but the ones that are viable are underestimated in terms of damage. The Hek and the Boar Prime both have higher burst than any rifle I can think of, including the Latron Wraith, which the Hek can out burst against certain factions. The Phage/Strun Wraith have less raw burst, but deal better sustained damage, so its not too bad.

 

And yeah, most shotguns have reload times that make me scratch my head. Sobek at 4 seconds? That's a joke right?

Hek is a little slow on the reload, otherwise pretty good, boar prime I havn't used enough to determine wether it's viable. i was refering to low RoF shotguns that weren't the Hek. Strun Wraith is a little too fast on the reload for 8 shells of high proc and decent damage, so i'd rather see a slight damage buff and reload nerf (to 2.0-2.4 seconds[which is still pretty fast]). The other shotguns have reloads that are way too slow.

 

To clarify, i should say Strun wraith, Hek, and Boar Prime are high tier shotguns, but their lack of range versatility compared to high tier auto-rifles makes them need a more extreme effectiveness at close range to compensate. otherwise the risk to reward ratio is skewed in auto-rifles favour.

 

Sobek would be the accurate Shotgun LMG with its 4.0 reload and 20 clip size if it didn't shoot so slow and wasn't plagued by low pellet count (leading to fairly inconsistant spread). Still better than Strun though (3.0 reload for 6 shots... WHY?!?!)

Edited June 8, 2015 by Vougue

[Grom-84]

 

Sobek would be the accurate Shotgun LMG with its 4.0 reload and 20 clip size if it didn't shoot so slow and wasn't plagued by low pellet count (leading to fairly inconsistant spread). Still better than Strun though (3.0 reload for 6 shots... WHY?!?!)

 

Exactly, when i see those reload times im making very sad face) I can accept low reload times and clips but only if such gun could kill more than 1 enemy per shot like destroy 3-4 ancients with a double barrel wide shot, and then - reload for 2.5 seconds(and im afraid that even 2 seconds will be too much in some situations you may be dead few times per 1 second) this would be at least something viable.

[Redhux]

Sniper: Nope i don't care in a game where you're constantly facing multiples opponents.

 

 

ShotGun: Yes i would enjoy an upgrade, but since DEVs don't play the game, that would be a mess for sure.

[S5alad]

As most others have stated, the sniper rifles need not just some mechanical tweaking, but also tile set designs built to encourage their use. I can think of about 1 tile in each procedurally generated set which is conductive towards a sniper play style, and only 1 "arena" style map (corpus) which would allow for a sniper to be effective

 

Mechanically, there needs to be versatility added into the snipers, like say an adjustable zoom (2x-5x for example). Also an inherent punch through that would also apply to walls and barriers. otherwise we're just talking about a hit-scan bow without the benefits of the inherently higher damage, crit chance/multiplier, or status proc. Maybe highlight enemies through walls while you're looking through the scopes. just... something to bring them on par with the bows.

 

For shotguns, the distance damage reduction needs to go, and perhaps even be replaced with a damage boost from 10m and closer. Also, the reloading philosophy needs to be seriously reconsidered. I think that they need to change the status and crit chance to be per pellet, instead of divided by pellet: currently if you have 100% crit and your shotty shoots 10 pellets, each pellet has a 10% chance to crit. If this were changed to each pellet had a 100% chance to crit, and the damage falloff was removed, I think shotguns would be a viable main weapon again instead of mastery fodder.

 

[Edit]Grammar is hard[/Edit]

Edited June 9, 2015 by Fenwyn