May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[Drakontis]

 

 

#3 Rhino Stomp versus Bastille whats the difference?

Seriously, <_<

This is a case of redundant powers. A good way to overcome this is simply change rhino stomp. Change it froma utility to a damage type ultimate, since Bastille clearly does a better job at levatating enemies and allowing partners to target them. O_O A thought just occured to me, why not have Rhino Stomp act a lager "Bounce" rather than merely levatating a few enemies in suspended time why not have it so when Rhino Stomps his enemies are lauched into the air in a similar fashion to bounce. OR vice versa, when when Rhino Stomps it crushes te enemies within its AOE. Take a moment to immagin either as a possibility as they made me laugh thinking about them.

 

 

I think this is the best option for boosting Rhino stomp I have seen to date. It reeks of hilariousness and utility as well as damage and being fun. It also makes it unique in how it works, especially if they take high damage from the initial attack and even more damage from hitting the ceiling. 

[GroxXx777]

I will happily agree that the change to the skill (without any comment/reason from DE about it) wasnt exactly a "lucky/smart" thing, especially not when there is that sneaky "bug" with the disrubters/toxics/etc when iron skin is used.

 

But the change to the skill (80%) was still needed from my pov.

 

Well, the "sad" reality of the forum playerbase is that it flips "out" the moment it logs in on the forum and someone else has posted something, no matter if its relevant to something they are even thinking about :/ (yes, very big exaggeration on my part, but i do believe in this case, it makes my point very clear)

 

Join me in a bit of wishfull thinking here: Imagine that all the players that complain with reasons like "fix!!!!" / "dont want!" / "doesnt work" / etc etc etc, actually wrote down what it was that needed fixing/they-didnt-want/what-didnt-work/etc etc..

 

In a reality where that happended, Imagine the "state" the game could be in now ?

 

I disagree, as I said countless times, invincibility was never the problem, spamability was. The nerfing should be along the lines of more energy costs or added cooldown.

And well, as this game is still in beta and big changes are to be expected, a lot of people thinks that letting the devs know what changes makes the game better/more fun is more like a duty, because this is the time those changes can be easly reverted, therefore helping to shape a better final game. Obviously there are a lot of people that will complain about anything, but as long as DE can hear the good sugestions over the bad ones, it's something we can live with.

Edited May 19, 2013 by GroxXx777

[thedrag0n22]

i'm just going to put my opinion out there...keep the 80% for second to max level, make max 90%, and remove all knock-back and stun when using rhino skin at any level.

[BloodEmperor]

I disagree, as I said countless times, invincibility was never the problem, spamability was. The nerfing should be along the lines of more energy costs or added cooldown.

And well, as this game is still in beta and big changes are to be expected, a lot of people thinks that letting the devs know what changes makes the game better/more fun is more like a duty, because this is the time those changes can be easly reverted, therefore helping to shape a better final game. Obviously there are a lot of people that will complain about anything, but as long as DE can hear the good sugestions over the bad ones, it's something we can live with.

ppl who built rhino to be able to spam IS are really screwed in many situations (eg: ganked by 5 disruptors one will hit u just in time to get u naked)

building him as a TANK doesnt even give u reasons to spam it ....ok sometimes if u cant spam it ur screwed either way eg: on levels where ur highest dps weapon only scratches ur enemies keep ur defense up or keep running after 7.11 running is the only thing left great challange....hey volt rush the higher levels for me pls DE pls dont even think about doing anything to volt he is balanced like hell more than rhino was

ow one thing rhino great CC ? one chaos from nyx and rhino stomps untill hes out of breath so much for CC vs tank

 

edit: I S U C K at writing my bad for uncountable edits

Edited May 20, 2013 by BloodEmperor

[GroxXx777]

ppl who built rhino to be able to spam IS are really screwed in many situations (eg: ganked by 5 disruptors one will hit u just in time to get u naked)

building him as a TANK doesnt even give u reasons to spam it ....ok sometimes if u cant spam it ur screwed either way eg: on levels where ur highest dps weapon only scratches ur enemies keep ur defense up or keep running after 7.11 running is the only thing left great challange....hey volt rush the higher levels for me pls DE pls dont even think about doing anything to volt he is balanced like hell more than rhino was

ow one thing rhino great CC ? one chaos from nyx and rhino stomps untill hes out of breath so much for CC vs tank

 

edit: I S U C K at writing my bad for uncountable edits

 

That's kind of what I'm trying to say, Iron Skin was nefed for people mindlessly spaming it, I find logical that DE wants to correct that. But leaving us without our best tanking ability is not the solution either, as I said, give us not spamable invincibility.

[MusicGamer]

Aaaaand this is why I love you guys.  :D  Question:  Was the removal of vulnerability from Sound Quake intentional?  Or, like Rhino with its removal of Knockback Resistance from Iron Skin, was it a bug?

[Naed]

I disagree, as I said countless times, invincibility was never the problem, spamability was. The nerfing should be along the lines of more energy costs or added cooldown.

And well, as this game is still in beta and big changes are to be expected, a lot of people thinks that letting the devs know what changes makes the game better/more fun is more like a duty, because this is the time those changes can be easly reverted, therefore helping to shape a better final game. Obviously there are a lot of people that will complain about anything, but as long as DE can hear the good sugestions over the bad ones, it's something we can live with.

Any skill being "spamable" is "bad", my mistake for not mentioning it (and thank you for pointing that out)

 

So what i comes "down" for you and i is that we "kinda" agree.

 

and the points we might not agree on, we agree to disagree.

 

Thank you for the debate on this :)

 

 

RE: hearing the good suggestions:

That is something i personally think is very obvious if a person has bothered to skim the forum and actually read the patch notes, both from closed beta and in open beta :)

[s3kShUn08]

I think this is the best option for boosting Rhino stomp I have seen to date. It reeks of hilariousness and utility as well as damage and being fun. It also makes it unique in how it works, especially if they take high damage from the initial attack and even more damage from hitting the ceiling. 

Just imagining it in all its hilarity and usefuleness makes me laugh.

I might bite the bullet and pay an extra $50 to upgrade my founders to get into the DG part of the chats and forum. And for $250 for grandmaster I demand the High Resolution 3D files to my favorite character so I can 3d print it and paint it myself. $100 to invest in a still developing game is a considerable amount of money. Which does take me back to current Market pricing levels. The absurdity of the prices is beyond belief. If im buying $100 in platinum why would I spend  $7-$10 on a weapon and $13-$20 on 1 frame! For Steam Users thats either several fully developed games already, and for consoles thats an entire expansion pack for 1 frame basically. I wouldn't even begin to call this a microtransaction, more of a macrotransaction with minimal content.

[DaymareCelestia]

 

3) RNG is bad!

 

Our RNG system has undergone several revisions throughout the continuing Warframe Beta. It currently is at a place we are content with, but understand that it (along with all RNG systems) can be frustrating.

So we are still going to be getting hellfire from wave 5-35+? Makes going to high waves on defense kinda pointless.

[DaClamps]

Just saying "He will be reviewed and changed" doesn't make me feel much better.  How is he going to be changed?  What direction are the devs leaning towards?  Leaving Iron Skin the way it is and buffing everything else?  Modifying Iron Skin?  Restoring Iron Skin completely? 

 

 

That wouldn't be enough.  It might help, but it's far from what needs to be done.

It's all that needs to be done ffs. Focus would give him 100% reduc. Fix his stagger inability and you have a proper tank. You have to build into it, but that's what you should have to do.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Well, there is the "obvious" very cheesy answer of: Use the other skills he has.

 

The (maybe) less obvious answer (but still rather cheesy) is: DE has said quite a few times (and from my pov it seems rather obvious) that they prefer when skills are used in a "synergy" between frames.

 

Example of this: Rhino stomp + Ember fire blast + Loki invis/Ash invis.

Another: Mag's bullet attractor + Excaliburs radial javelin

 

It has also been hinted (last time was the last livestream iirc) that there are still "combos" like that, which havnt been found. (Granted i could easily have misunderstood that part of the stream)

The issue is that all those other powers are generally not very good even at what they do compared to other options. Radial Blast has knockdown and some damage, but Radial Blind does crowd control much better on account of greater range, lower cost, and greater duration. Rhino Stomp looks real cool in use, but most of the other ult powers look just as cool but do damage and oftentimes lock down the enemy almost as well (eg Avalanche will chill what it doesn't kill.) Frame synergy sounds good on paper, but it's only really good with clanmates or friends; pugs will just do whatever they want either way with it being a crapshoot as to whether they actually shoot at the six ancients being held by stomp or not.

And when dealing with friends, old IS provides much greater frame synergy, because it lets Rhino wade into huge masses of ancients, keeping them focused on him so less durable frames can kill without having to frantically dodge. If one of your friends went down, you could walk into hell itself for fifteen glorious seconds to get them out.

Now, Rhino players can't do that unless we're talking about low level systems. In high level ones, 80% DR does little but buy slow Rhino a few extra seconds under fire, ones he has trouble taking advantage of because he's so slow.

 

RE: Slow speed and rank lock:

I hadnt forgotten about the speed, but i will happily admit i had forgotten about the rank lock.

The speed is okay because he has the kind of crowd control that he has,

The rank lock, im very much against..

The kind of crowd control he has isn't very good though. Excal does CC better, for instance, with radial blind and his greater mobility allowing him to reposition to use it easily. Ember does it better because enemies set on fire have a good chance to panic for several seconds, and because of her greater speed, greater DR, and greater energy pool. Nyx's crowd control power, chaos, is still amazing even after the nerf, what with turning huge masses of enemies into a good thing, rather than a bad thing. Vauban, although I've not played him yet, supposedly has a power that's like a rhino stomp you can use at range and which supposedly lasts longer for only 75 energy.

Rhino also doesn't have the DPS to handle the enemies he's CCing, which is a problem with pugs and when soloing. Unless Rhino is using a good gun, but anyone can use any gun.

 

RE: Why change:

I obviously dont know "how" the people that "thought" up Rhino think. But i dont think its an unthinkable thought that they cringe just a bit when all they hear about is how iron skin is the only skill used.

 

All the frames have abilities that are situational, some are very, some are less. But i dont think its a "bad" idea that DE is trying to "educate/broaden" (for a lack of a better term/word for describing it) the players "way" of using/playing Rhino.

The reason nobody uses the other powers is because the other powers are garbage even as crowd control. Sure some people like Mak will say it's all fine, but Mak seems to have made a career of finding a use for garbage powers like superjump or radial blast.

I don't necessarily support IS going back to exactly as it was (I favor increasing energy cost to 75 or 100 and nerfing duration down to ~10 seconds - with Rhino's terrible energy capacity, this should be enough to prevent it from being spammed.), but the temporary invulnerability was the major draw of Rhino for myself and lots of others. Not because I'm a scrub peasant who can't play as some others have implied (Rank 5 means I must have played with more than Rhino), but because the playstyle enabled by the temporary invulnerability appealed to me the most out of all the frames. My only problem is how easily spammable it was. I rarely if ever spammed it because I like having it in reserve if I run into trouble, but I can see how spammable IS would be a major balance problem.

 

And the "fun" fact is, the only way they can "know" how the playerbase reacts to something is to "test" it out on us in a live setting.

True, which is why they partially de-nerfed the Hek before.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[K1LLZ0NE]

It's all that needs to be done ffs. Focus would give him 100% reduc. Fix his stagger inability and you have a proper tank. You have to build into it, but that's what you should have to do.

 

First, they haven't said WHAT they will change.  That was the point of my post.  I feel you missed that.  Also, Focus DOES NOT affect Iron Skin.  Just saying.

[Philosopher]

It is time to convert fellow Rhino riders. A new god has emerged from the depths of the volcano. All must worship our new goddess EMBER. Overheat gives 70% damage reduction, slap focus on her and it boosts to 90% Damage Reduction+ Close Range Fire Damage!!! Worship our goddess for she shall grant her blessing to those who offer her the sacrifice named General Sargas Ruk who resides on Tethys, Saturn. Ember has spoken AND SHE DEMANDS A SACRIFICE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gestalt]

3) RNG is bad!

 

Our RNG system has undergone several revisions throughout the continuing Warframe Beta. It currently is at a place we are content with, but understand that it (along with all RNG systems) can be frustrating.

 

4) Alert System for New content?

 

Is this the way it will always be? No, not at all. Implementing a Warframe this way has been met with feedback from all sides. At the time of writing this, it has been about 40 hours since the Update featuring Vauban was released, with no parts yet dropped. The system is RNG and I am closely monitoring the feed to get the parts myself. We want to be fair, Steve said it best in the FAQ https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/5898-warframe-faq/.

 

There has been suggestions of ways to improve the alerts (adding a token system, generating Alerts based on time logged in, etc), and these are being seen.

3) Which RNG system are we talking about it? RNG in general (boss drop, alert generation, etc)? Or a specific one?

4) I've not heard too much talk in the announcement threads about token systems or time-logged based alerts. Heard more about random-reward based alert systems to be honest. I guess the announcement threads are just junk heaps for the "reactions" that aren't paid too much attention. Kinda sad cus many people put quite a lot of ideas into those threads.

[neKroMancer]

As long as DE is willing to give stun/toxic/disruptor resistance back to iron skin, it'll be fine. 80% DR is quite plenty imo. Overheat has higher reduction without resistance to special effect seems like a good balance to me.

 

However, Rhino needs revision with other powers. Rhino charge is simply an inferior version of slash dash and radial blast is a poor copy of rhino stomp.

 

- Rhino charge should act in a different way. Perhaps upon impact, the target got ragdolled backward and if it hits any surface then apply damage upon landing. For all we know, Warframe needs fall damage and other physic damage with the introduction of Vauban.

 

- Radial blast is simply small stomp with small damage. It really needs some change.

1.Turn it into aggro-drawing powe, Rhino 'taunt', with less energy cost (somewhere between 25-50) in order to make him true tank.

2.Turn it into range AOE power. 

3.Turn it into 'thorn' ability. Bounce percentage of damage, be it range or melee, back at the enemies. Compliment with Iron skin. You got less damage while bounce it back to the enemies.

[FrostWolf]

Just Make Radial Blast his Not "Ultimate" Nuke

 

 

You can justify giving it high damage for it's high cost compared to Rhino's energy pool/

[Zarozian]

Buff the crap out of Radial Blast and add knock back to it that sends enemies flying back words as well as keeping the knock down it already has, and swap places with Rhino Stomp. 

 

That's one way or:

 

Make Radial Blast cost 50 energy and/or Rhino Stomp cost 75 energy.

 

But above all else, keep Iron Skin the same way as it was before the update/nerf and maybe make it so that Rhino Charge actually goes through enemies instead of bumping into them. =/

[K1LLZ0NE]

As long as DE is willing to give stun/toxic/disruptor resistance back to iron skin, it'll be fine. 80% DR is quite plenty imo. Overheat has higher reduction without resistance to special effect seems like a good balance to me.

 

Where have you been playing that 80% DR is enough?  It is my experience that 80% DR is not enough on higher levels.  Not to actually get in the fight for any real damage.

Edited May 20, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Drakontis]

3) Which RNG system are we talking about it? RNG in general (boss drop, alert generation, etc)? Or a specific one?

4) I've not heard too much talk in the announcement threads about token systems or time-logged based alerts. Heard more about random-reward based alert systems to be honest. I guess the announcement threads are just junk heaps for the "reactions" that aren't paid too much attention. Kinda sad cus many people put quite a lot of ideas into those threads.

 

 

RNG system in question is referring to the Alert one because we haven't gotten a single Vauban piece drop yet after 48 going on 72 hours. 

[neKroMancer]

Where have you been playing that 80% DR is enough?  It is my experience that 80% DR is not enough on higher levels.  Not to actually get in the fight for any real damage.

 

If you're going to discuss about returning of old invulnerability. I think it's a lost cause. Apart from defense mission which should be a challenge mode, damage immunity is extremely OP in regular mission. Even when you consider Pluto missions, it's still OP compared to other powers of other frames.

 

The main feature of Iron skin was special effect immunity, imo. Total damage invulnerability is simply too much and takes away a lot of strategic play from Rhino. I played him before I reset on Sedna and Pluto, he did fine with 80%DR as long as you know what is ahead of you. It's more brain, less reflex at this point. More rediretion, a lot more.

 

Alternatives are lessen invulnerability by 1/4-1/2 which means he will have only 5-7.5 second for Iron skin which is barely enough for higher defense with mobs at lv60+. You may be able to kill a few of them before it expires.

[K1LLZ0NE]

If you're going to discuss about returning of old invulnerability. I think it's a lost cause. Apart from defense mission which should be a challenge mode, damage immunity is extremely OP in regular mission. Even when you consider Pluto missions, it's still OP compared to other powers of other frames.

 

The main feature of Iron skin was special effect immunity, imo. Total damage invulnerability is simply too much and takes away a lot of strategic play from Rhino. I played him before I reset on Sedna and Pluto, he did fine with 80%DR as long as you know what is ahead of you. It's more brain, less reflex at this point. More rediretion, a lot more.

 

Alternatives are lessen invulnerability by 1/4-1/2 which means he will have only 5-7.5 second for Iron skin which is barely enough for higher defense with mobs at lv60+. You may be able to kill a few of them before it expires.

 

Its been said a lot, but I will say it again.  If its invulnerability that is the problem, then every other frame has similar abilities. And you say that you have to maneuver with Rhino more now, which may not be such a big problem, except for his garbage maneuverability.

 

When you look at Iron Skin by itself, and say "Wow, 100% damage invulnerability!?  WTF? OP!" then sure, looking at a single aspect of any frame will make it look OP.  The fact is that Rhino WAS a balanced frame.  Garbage speed, and garbage damage along with (old)Iron Skin makes Rhino perfectly balanced.

Edited May 20, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[goozilla]

If you're going to discuss about returning of old invulnerability. I think it's a lost cause. Apart from defense mission which should be a challenge mode, damage immunity is extremely OP in regular mission. Even when you consider Pluto missions, it's still OP compared to other powers of other frames.

 

The main feature of Iron skin was special effect immunity, imo. Total damage invulnerability is simply too much and takes away a lot of strategic play from Rhino. I played him before I reset on Sedna and Pluto, he did fine with 80%DR as long as you know what is ahead of you. It's more brain, less reflex at this point. More rediretion, a lot more.

 

Alternatives are lessen invulnerability by 1/4-1/2 which means he will have only 5-7.5 second for Iron skin which is barely enough for higher defense with mobs at lv60+. You may be able to kill a few of them before it expires.

 

You're an idiot. 5~7.5 seconds is barely enough to get in 3 heavy weapon swings at MOST, provided you have both Reflex Coil and Fury on.

 

And yes, he does fine even on Pluto after post patch. But he now PLAYS LIKE A GIMPED EXALIBUR.

 

Again, I might as well play Excalibur.

[Gestalt]

RNG system in question is referring to the Alert one because we haven't gotten a single Vauban piece drop yet after 48 going on 72 hours.

Ah ok.

Well, we haven't gotten a single Glaive BP (I think?) since update 7.11.0 either, so it's still working as intended if you do the comparison; they did say Vauban won't be as rare as Glaive right?

And I know, random is random :P

[neKroMancer]

You're an idiot. 5~7.5 seconds is barely enough to get in 3 heavy weapon swings at MOST, provided you have both Reflex Coil and Fury on.

 

And yes, he does fine even on Pluto after post patch. But he now PLAYS LIKE A GIMPED EXALIBUR.

 

Again, I might as well play Excalibur.

 

Do I have to bolded my response?

[K1LLZ0NE]

You're an idiot. 5~7.5 seconds is barely enough to get in 3 heavy weapon swings at MOST, provided you have both Reflex Coil and Fury on.

 

And yes, he does fine even on Pluto after post patch. But he now PLAYS LIKE A GIMPED EXALIBUR.

 

Again, I might as well play Excalibur.

 

More like WORSE than a gimped Excalibur.