May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[KvotheTheArcane1]

More like WORSE than a gimped Excalibur. 

exactly. atleast excal has a nice CC (radial blind) AND a high damage skill (radial jav/slash dash)

[goozilla]

Do I have to bolded my response?

I did it for the emphasis.

 

Let's see the comparison of Excalibur and Rhino.

 

Slash Dash vs Rhino Charge. SD has a longer range and it deals a base damage to each faction, ignoring level scaled resistances. Also deals 3x to Infested. Rhino charge is heavily resisted by Ancients and Grineers past Ceres.

 

Radial Javelin vs Radial Blast (Because Blast has the higher damage scaling of Rhino's 2 AoEs). Javelin deals 1k, unresisted, and can hit multiple times on the same enemy.

 

Rhino Stomp AND Radial Blast vs Radial Blind. Radial Blind deals no damage, but CCs at a range of 14m max, varying from 5~12 seconds depending on faction, for 50 energy. Rhino Stomp outclasses Blind at 20m, but it costs 100 energy, and Rhino has a very shallow pool. Radial Blast KDs at 10m, but things get up fast. Might as well Fragor and North Wind.

 

Iron Skin vs Super Jump. Super Jump is arguably the best escape utility in the game, sitting at 10 energy. Since both Slash Dash and Rhino Charge gets stuck in enemies often, Super Jump can get you out of a tight spot when surrounded. Iron Skin gives you 80% DR, but you're still a slab of cardboard in Pluto 4man.

 

Iron Skin was what made Rhino superior to Excalibur in survivability. Rhino has no mobility, unless you're toting daggers or Zorens with max Fury.

Edited May 20, 2013 by goozilla

[K1LLZ0NE]

exactly. atleast excal has a nice CC (radial blind) AND a high damage skill (radial jav/slash dash)

 

And MUCH better maneuverability. 

[fishworshipper]

Where have you been playing that 80% DR is enough?  It is my experience that 80% DR is not enough on higher levels.  Not to actually get in the fight for any real damage.

[neKroMancer]

Its been said a lot, but I will say it again.  If its invulnerability that is the problem, then every other frame has similar abilities. And you say that you have to maneuver with Rhino more now, which may not be such a big problem, except for his garbage maneuverability.

 

When you look at Iron Skin by itself, and say "Wow, 100% damage invulnerability!?  WTF? OP!" then sure, looking at a single aspect of any frame will make it look OP.  The fact is that Rhino WAS a balanced frame.  Garbage speed, and garbage damage along with (old)Iron Skin makes Rhino perfectly balanced.

 

Other frames with similar ability... Are there frame with total damage immunity which is 10 seconds long in this game that's not Rhino? Link is one of them but I don't know if there is any other frame which is able to do the same but she require target with large health pool to be effective. Ember has 90%DR but no stun/toxic/disruptor immunity. 

 

Asking for invulnerability with the same speed is just not smart. Really, there were numerous topics asking for Rhino speed boost because there is nothing to tank. All of the enemies are dead before he enters the room. 

 

Rhino's iron skin nerf is long overdue. However, upon the nerf DE should increase/balance other aspects/powers as well. I already suggested changes in several topics, including this one. If you're going to discuss how 100% damage reduction for 10 seconds with toxic/stun/disruptor resistance isn't OP then make your case. I'll listen.

[fishworshipper]

If you're going to discuss about returning of old invulnerability. I think it's a lost cause. Apart from defense mission which should be a challenge mode, damage immunity is extremely OP in regular mission. Even when you consider Pluto missions, it's still OP compared to other powers of other frames.

 

The main feature of Iron skin was special effect immunity, imo. Total damage invulnerability is simply too much and takes away a lot of strategic play from Rhino. I played him before I reset on Sedna and Pluto, he did fine with 80%DR as long as you know what is ahead of you. It's more brain, less reflex at this point. More rediretion, a lot more.

 

Alternatives are lessen invulnerability by 1/4-1/2 which means he will have only 5-7.5 second for Iron skin which is barely enough for higher defense with mobs at lv60+. You may be able to kill a few of them before it expires.

Or just add a cooldown so that you can't swagger like a god throughout the entirety of every mission.

Not taking damage doesn't instantly make something OP, and by the logic of "not take dmg = OP" 99% of abilities in this game need to be HEAVILY nerfed.

[neKroMancer]

Or just add a cooldown so that you can't swagger like a god throughout the entirety of every mission.

Not taking damage doesn't instantly make something OP, and by the logic of "not take dmg = OP" 99% of abilities in this game need to be HEAVILY nerfed.

 

For all we know, CD isn't an option. Stop bringing that up.

 

Edit: tell me about other 99% power that grants you total damage reduction. I'll listen and discuss.

Edited May 20, 2013 by neKroMancer

[goozilla]

For all we know, CD isn't an option. Stop bringing that up.

 

Edit: tell me about other 99% power that grants you total damage reduction. I'll listen and discuss.

 

I can't think of a better DR than killing everything in the room with a push of a button. You?

[fishworshipper]

For all we know, CD isn't an option. Stop bringing that up.

 

Edit: tell me about other 99% power that grants you total damage reduction. I'll listen and discuss.

Decoy, Moult, "Kill everything in the room (most the ultimates)," Invisibility, Smoke Bomb, Link, Electric Shield (uni-directional, not as OP), Snow Globe, Blessing (to an extent), Bastille, probably more I can't think of.

Also, cooldown IS an option. There's cooldown on both the Sentinel's abilities, can't be too hard to add it to ours and throw a timer somewhere.

[K1LLZ0NE]

Decoy, Moult, "Kill everything in the room (most the ultimates)," Invisibility, Smoke Bomb, Link, Electric Shield (uni-directional, not as OP), Snow Globe, Blessing (to an extent), Bastille, probably more I can't think of.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Drakontis]

. If you're going to discuss how 100% damage reduction for 10 seconds with toxic/stun/disruptor resistance isn't OP then make your case. I'll listen.

I will take up this challenge. 

 

Overpowered things depend on usage. With correct mods and sufficient orbs, one can spam out Saryn's Miasma pretty quickly. I should know, I've done it before on Kiste. That right there? Somewhat OP. After all, not taking damage at all means you might as well be invulnerable, especially if you can kill everything. But using Miasma once in a while? Not overpowered. That's how it's meant to be used. 

 

Now let's discuss Iron Skin as it was and how it was used. Currently, there are 2 boats that Iron Skin users lie in. There are the ones that use it sparingly and the ones who spam this ability. Those of us, such as myself, who used is sparingly were not using it in an overpowered way. We would tank things like Disruptors and Toxic Ancients, maybe some of the one shot abilities such as Jackal's Grenades, or we'd use them to revive an ally without being knocked halfway across the room. This proves to be invaluable in many areas when somebody is downed. The most often I found myself using Iron Skin was when an ally was down.

 

Then we have the people who built their 'frame to have 300 energy, continuity, flow, streamline, etc. These people would use Iron Skin CONSTANTLY. Now, I have yet to have seen anyone in the game use Iron Skin like this, but obviously some did or else it wouldn't be an issue. This is abuse and it is overpowered. Abusing things tends to be overpowered or imbalanced. Imbalanced things can stem from tactics (such as corner camping in a traditional FPS game), to High Power/Low Skill abilities (Such as pretty much all of the Ultimates in this game, actually), to power ups such as the Star in Mario games. These things are all arguably OP in certain circumstances. But a select few users that keep Iron Skin up for an entire game does not make the ability overpowered, but ABUSE Overpowered. 

 

We should not encourage abuse of any ability. Casting Chaos and just running away and letting everything kill each other because you know the effect is infinite? That's abuse. It was changed. It now has a time limit and can't be recast while units under the effect are still alive. Casting Molt on a box where infected can't reach it and it lasts forever? Borderline abuse. It was changed. Iron Skin being spammed constantly? Again, abuse. But it was changed in a way where it was no longer viable for the things that NON abusers used it for. Reviving allies, distracting or killing ancients, being able to survive OHKO boss abilities. That, to me, isn't fair. 

[K1LLZ0NE]

If you're going to discuss how 100% damage reduction for 10 seconds with toxic/stun/disruptor resistance isn't OP then make your case. I'll listen.

Okay, Rhino has some of the least damaging abilities in the game coupled with the worst speed in the game. Also, his CC is sub-par and can be matched by using any Heavy Melee jump attack. Also, high defensive stats (health, shield, and armor) don't do squat at higher levels. What makes a "tank" (at least in this game) comes down to abilities. Not stats. If warframe A has an ability that allows for better damage reduction than warframe B, then warframe A is the better tank. Rhino is supposed to be THE tank frame. He is the ONLY rank locked frame, and the most expensive. ALL of this clearly proves how Rhino with (old) Iron Skin was not OP.

Edited May 20, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[neKroMancer]

Decoy doesn't grant invincibility.

Moult doesn't grant invincibility.

Invisibility and smoke screen can be hit with ancient, no stun/toxic immunity.

Link requires target with large health pool to be effective or it'll jump around other targets. I think it's next on the nerf line. 

Snow globe is stationary and you still got stun through it. I think i got killed with Bombardier once inside it.

Blessing grant short immunity but it's more healing than tanking.

Don't have Vauban so I don't know.

 

Most AOE ultimates are another topics, not related to this one. Moreover, most of them lose effectiveness at higher level. You certainly can't kill everything with crush/overload/avalanche/miasma at higher levels. Bladestrom and Radial javelin fares better in this point. 

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Decoy doesn't grant invincibility.

Moult doesn't grant invincibility.

Invisibility and smoke screen can be hit with ancient, no stun/toxic immunity.

Link requires target with large health pool to be effective or it'll jump around other targets. I think it's next on the nerf line. 

Snow globe is stationary and you still got stun through it. I think i got killed with Bombardier once inside it.

Blessing grant short immunity but it's more healing than tanking.

Don't have Vauban so I don't know.

 

Most AOE ultimates are another topics, not related to this one. Moreover, most of them lose effectiveness at higher level. You certainly can't kill everything with crush/overload/avalanche/miasma at higher levels. Bladestrom and Radial javelin fares better in this point. 

Most of those more or less give invul. When you're invisible, as long as you aren't stupid enough t walk into a toxic, or into fire, you won't take damage. moult and decoy act as a taunt, drawing all fire to them for a bit, which is just as good as an invul.

[Drakontis]

Decoy doesn't grant invincibility.

Moult doesn't grant invincibility.

Invisibility and smoke screen can be hit with ancient, no stun/toxic immunity.

Link requires target with large health pool to be effective or it'll jump around other targets. I think it's next on the nerf line. 

Snow globe is stationary and you still got stun through it. I think i got killed with Bombardier once inside it.

Blessing grant short immunity but it's more healing than tanking.

Don't have Vauban so I don't know.

 

Most AOE ultimates are another topics, not related to this one. Moreover, most of them lose effectiveness at higher level. You certainly can't kill everything with crush/overload/avalanche/miasma at higher levels. Bladestrom and Radial javelin fares better in this point. 

 

 

While Decoy, Molt, Invisibility, Smoke Screen and Bastille (Vauban's 3rd ability that levitates everything) do not grant actual invincibility, they either make it so enemies do not target you, cannot target you, or remove them from play (so to speak). This effectively grants the user invincibility. After all, you're pretty much invincible if you're not taking damage and no one is shooting at you. This is also why massive kill skills (Crush/Miasma/Etc) are effectively invincibility buttons. This is why Iron Skin is not considered by many users to be OP. 

 

Edit: Typo. 

Edited May 20, 2013 by Drakontis

[K1LLZ0NE]

Decoy doesn't grant invincibility.

Moult doesn't grant invincibility.

Invisibility and smoke screen can be hit with ancient, no stun/toxic immunity.

Link requires target with large health pool to be effective or it'll jump around other targets. I think it's next on the nerf line. 

Snow globe is stationary and you still got stun through it. I think i got killed with Bombardier once inside it.

Blessing grant short immunity but it's more healing than tanking.

Don't have Vauban so I don't know.

 

Most AOE ultimates are another topics, not related to this one. Moreover, most of them lose effectiveness at higher level. You certainly can't kill everything with crush/overload/avalanche/miasma at higher levels. Bladestrom and Radial javelin fares better in this point. 

 

 

in·vin·ci·ble  

/inˈvinsəbəl/

 

Adjective

Too powerful to be defeated or overcome

 

 

 

in·vul·ner·a·ble  

/inˈvəlnərəbəl/

 

Adjective

Impossible to harm or damage.

 

 

Moult and Decoy stop you from taking damage.  Invisibility and Smoke Screen stop you from taking damage.  Link stops you from taking damage.  Snow Globe stops you from taking damage.  Blessing stops you from taking damage.  Bastille stops you from taking damage.  AOE killing everything stops you from taking damage.  

 

I'm sorry, but yes, all of these abilities can be used to "grant you invulnerability".

Edited May 20, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[Mak_Gohae]

The issue is that all those other powers are generally not very good even at what they do compared to other options. Radial Blast has knockdown and some damage, but Radial Blind does crowd control much better on account of greater range, lower cost, and greater duration.

 

Radial Blast has damage while Blind doesnt so when you blind some one you need to take their whole health while with Blast at least half of the job is already done for you. There is balance here which you folks are completely ignoring.

 

 

 

 

Rhino Stomp looks real cool in use, but most of the other ult powers look just as cool but do damage and oftentimes lock down the enemy almost as well (eg Avalanche will chill what it doesn't kill.)

 

Rhino has the second largest range for an ult which can be increased too.

 

 

 

Frame synergy sounds good on paper, but it's only really good with clanmates or friends; pugs will just do whatever they want either way with it being a crapshoot as to whether they actually shoot at the six ancients being held by stomp or not.

 

So they should balance the game based on the probably that some people wont react in a certain way?

How do you balance for that?

 

 

 

And when dealing with friends, old IS provides much greater frame synergy, because it lets Rhino wade into huge masses of ancients, keeping them focused on him so less durable frames can kill without having to frantically dodge. If one of your friends went down, you could walk into hell itself for fifteen glorious seconds to get them out.

 

Now, Rhino players can't do that unless we're talking about low level systems. In high level ones, 80% DR does little but buy slow Rhino a few extra seconds under fire, ones he has trouble taking advantage of because he's so slow.

 

Or you could knock them down or up as many times are you are allowed.

 

 

 

The kind of crowd control he has isn't very good though. Excal does CC better, for instance, with radial blind and his greater mobility allowing him to reposition to use it easily.

 

Ex doesnt it differently.

And i already covered the difference up top.

 

 

 

Ember does it better because enemies set on fire have a good chance to panic for several seconds, and because of her greater speed, greater DR, and greater energy pool.

 

At higher levels, which seems to be part of the problem here, Ember's Fireblast doesnt really do that and enemies can walk RIGHT UP TO HER and hit her. But guess what?  ALL enemies will continue to get knocked down from Rhino's attack.

 

 

 

Nyx's crowd control power, chaos, is still amazing even after the nerf, what with turning huge masses of enemies into a good thing, rather than a bad thing.

 

It's good, no question but enemies can still attack if you if attack them or there isnt anything else they can attack. It's...well.... chaos.

 

 

 

Vauban, although I've not played him yet, supposedly has a power that's like a rhino stomp you can use at range and which supposedly lasts longer for only 75 energy.

 

If wiki is correct it half the range of stomp.  That's what brought the cost down.

 

 

 

Rhino also doesn't have the DPS to handle the enemies he's CCing, which is a problem with pugs and when soloing. Unless Rhino is using a good gun, but anyone can use any gun.

 

Huh?

Why is your weapons, apparently, being thrown out of the equation?

I dont really know how to read this statement because it makes no sense.

His stuns all do some damage unlike half of the ones you mentioned which require the heavy use of weapons... why wouldn't you use your weapons in combination with your attacks?

 

 

 

The reason nobody uses the other powers is because the other powers are garbage even as crowd control.

 

Can you provide a clear explanation why knockdown powers that have some damage are garbage?

And please so use the silly response of "other powers better!" Because if we follow that line of thought, like i've said before, we would only be use 3 Warframes.

 

 

 

 

Sure some people like Mak will say it's all fine, but Mak seems to have made a career of finding a use for garbage powers like superjump or radial blast.

 

They are there to be used, why arent you using them?

Using those move made this Iron Skin adjustment have little effect on my play style so finding use for those powers was, apparently, a benefit.  

 

 

I don't necessarily support IS going back to exactly as it was (I favor increasing energy cost to 75 or 100 and nerfing duration down to ~10 seconds - with Rhino's terrible energy capacity, this should be enough to prevent it from being spammed.),

 

Bringing it down to Link levels would be good, also, the time cannot be extended.

[goozilla]

Decoy doesn't grant invincibility.

Moult doesn't grant invincibility.

Invisibility and smoke screen can be hit with ancient, no stun/toxic immunity.

Link requires target with large health pool to be effective or it'll jump around other targets. I think it's next on the nerf line. 

Snow globe is stationary and you still got stun through it. I think i got killed with Bombardier once inside it.

Blessing grant short immunity but it's more healing than tanking.

Don't have Vauban so I don't know.

 

Most AOE ultimates are another topics, not related to this one. Moreover, most of them lose effectiveness at higher level. You certainly can't kill everything with crush/overload/avalanche/miasma at higher levels. Bladestrom and Radial javelin fares better in this point. 

 

Spoken like a true plebian.

 

Link will target the first closest enemy. When it dies, it then moves to the NEXT CLOSEST ENEMY, until Link's effect runs out.

 

Snow Globe is 30 seconds of 100% ranged DR along with perma chill within it. If you get killed in it, you deserved it.

 

Invisibility/Smokescreen DROPS ALL AGGRO when used, and immunity to bullets.

 

Molt/Decoy are much like Invisibility and Smokescreen in the fact that it DROPS ALL AGGRO OFF OF YOU within its area of usage. And its pretty wide. That's pretty much 100% DR, provided you don't get hit by a stray bullet or AoE. But that's why they're AoEs, right?

 

Vauban can hold/stun enemies in his trap, which is the equivalent of 100% DR, like killing.

 

Miasma will STUN on usage, completely unresisted, and DoTs after. The only thing it CAN'T kill are Ancients and bosses. And Ancients are Ancients.

 

Sound Quake, with its NEW DAMAGE BUFF, can still wipe a 4 man Kiste (Ceres) room of Lancers with Focus. Just learn to do it in a safe place or carry Shade.

[goozilla]

Radial Blast has damage while Blind doesnt so when you blind some one you need to take their whole health while with Blast at least half of the job is already done for you. There is balance here which you folks are completely ignoring.

 

Radial Blast's damage is so freaking resisted at Ceres is not even worth mentioning the damage. Huehue, I just used 75 energy for a 10 meter non-chilled KD that did 50 damage. Go me.

 

Radial Blind is 50 energy for 12m of 5~12 seconds of CC.

[fishworshipper]

Decoy doesn't grant invincibility. If they aren't attacking you how are you going to die?

Moult doesn't grant invincibility. ^

Invisibility and smoke screen can be hit with ancient, no stun/toxic immunity. Assuming you have a brain, you wont stand in piles of death-goo.

Link requires target with large health pool to be effective or it'll jump around other targets. I think it's next on the nerf line. Last I checked Link reflected any damage you take, not just damage from your target. Also, boss fights. Enough stated.

Snow globe is stationary and you still got stun through it. I think i got killed with Bombardier once inside it. Getting killed by a Bombardier sounds more like a bug than anything else. Also, it doesn't really matter if it's stationary if you position it correctly.

Blessing grant short immunity but it's more healing than tanking.

Don't have Vauban so I don't know. Stuns everything within about a mile for quite a decent amount of time.

 

Most AOE ultimates are another topics, not related to this one. Moreover, most of them lose effectiveness at higher level. You certainly can't kill everything with crush/overload/avalanche/miasma at higher levels. Bladestorm and Radial javelin fares better in this point. You can still stun enemies with a good amount of those ultimates.

Answers in bold. Edited May 20, 2013 by fishworshipper

[Mak_Gohae]

However, Rhino needs revision with other powers. Rhino charge is simply an inferior version of slash dash and radial blast is a poor copy of rhino stomp.

 

 

Rhino's theme is knocking people down... that's what his powers do. His powers are not meant to one-shot things.

 

- Rhino charge should act in a different way. Perhaps upon impact, the target got ragdolled backward and if it hits any surface then apply damage upon landing. For all we know, Warframe needs fall damage and other physic damage with the introduction of Vauban.

 

Rhino is slow... why would you want to knock people away from him instead of simply down where you can quickly turn around and kill them?

 

- Radial blast is simply small stomp with small damage. It really needs some change.

 

It has the same range and Avalanche and does at least half to basically kill things.

[Mak_Gohae]

Radial Blast's damage is so freaking resisted at Ceres is not even worth mentioning the damage. Huehue, I just used 75 energy for a 10 meter non-chilled KD that did 50 damage. Go me.

 

Radial Blind is 50 energy for 12m of 5~12 seconds of CC.

 

Can you do a video showing this?

We are talking about a normal stage or are you running some Defense mission against level 80 dudes with a whole mess of health.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[goozilla]

Can you do a video showing this?

We are talking about a normal stage or are you running some Defense mission against level 80 dudes with a whole mess of health.

As far as I remember, my Rhino Charge only did 100 to a Ceres Grineer grunt, while Radial Blast barely did anything. Kinda gave up after that and moved onto Pluto for the rest of the night. Will livestream it, if you want.

Edited May 20, 2013 by goozilla

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Radial Blast has damage while Blind doesnt so when you blind some one you need to take their whole health while with Blast at least half of the job is already done for you. There is balance here which you folks are completely ignoring. blast still has very little damage later game, and the knock down isn't THAT long.

 

 

 

 

 

Rhino has the second largest range for an ult which can be increased too. It is 20, I'm surprised, it feels really short.

 

 

 

 

So they should balance the game based on the probably that some people wont react in a certain way?

How do you balance for that? I can agree with this

 

 

 

 

Or you could knock them down or up as many times are you are allowed. which is really very few, as rhino has a very small energy ppol to spam 75 or 100 energy abilities.

 

 

 

 

Ex doesnt it differently.

And i already covered the difference up top.

 

 

 

 

At higher levels, which seems to be part of the problem here, Ember's Fireblast doesnt really do that and enemies can walk RIGHT UP TO HER and hit her. But guess what?  ALL enemies will continue to get knocked down from Rhino's attack. as long as you have energy, which will dry up pretty fast.

 

 

 

 

It's good, no question but enemies can still attack if you if attack them or there isnt anything else they can attack. It's...well.... chaos. true

 

 

 

 

If wiki is correct it half the range of stomp.  That's what brought the cost down. I feel the wiki is incorrect

 

 

 

 

Huh?

Why is your weapons, apparently, being thrown out of the equation?

I dont really know how to read this statement because it makes no sense.

His stuns all do some damage unlike half of the ones you mentioned which require the heavy use of weapons... why wouldn't you use your weapons in combination with your attacks? Rhino stomp has next to no damage

 

 

 

 

Can you provide a clear explanation why knockdown powers that have some damage are garbage? Rhino stomp has next to no damage, radial blast's knockdown feels very short

And please so use the silly response of "other powers better!" Because if we follow that line of thought, like i've said before, we would only be use 3 Warframes.

...in replacement of rhino, yes. Saryn i.e. has a nice strong ulti, ingnores armor, does high damage, and stuns for a few seconds. It fills a different role than pure CC, it's the compliment to the CC that someone like vauban does better than rhino with his 3 (or mag with her 4, which adds even more damage)

 

-snip-

[Mak_Gohae]

As far as I remember, my Rhino Charge only did 100 to a Ceres Grineer grunt, while Radial Blast barely did anything. Kinda gave up after that and moved onto Pluto for the rest of the night. Will livestream it, if you want.

 

Yes, why dont we set up a Rhino study on Twitch.

Have everyone come to discuss this and show examples of what he can and cannot do.

Maybe the DE folks can see how normal folks play instead of just seeing numbers and statistic like the evil programmers they are.