May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[gamefreak9149]

Lets try out the changes before we judge them, and they could still adjust them before/after/whenever they want. Theory crafting will not help us at this point unless we have it to mess with at our disposal. We have made a point, they saw it was not the best idea with how they effected IS with the 80% reduction and they are working on fixing it. The taunt is a nice touch so far.

Edited May 21, 2013 by gamefreak9149

[Zogg]

Lets try out the changes before we judge them, and they could still adjust them before/after/whenever they want. Theory crafting will not help us at this point unless we have it to mess with at our disposal. We have made a point, they saw it was not the best idea and they are working on it.

 

but isn't the idea of this topic to discuss the patch befor it is released and there can be changes/adjustments befor going live so the reaction isn't as strong as the last patch ?!

Edited May 21, 2013 by Zogg

[ArsVampyre]

Question: Is it 800 points indefinitely, until it's worn away, or is there still a timer? If there's still a timer, why? It already has an end condition, so why two?

As it stands, if it still has a timer it sounds like it's worse than it was after the recent nerf; limited durration health-pool that now draws agro from everything?

Don't get me wrong, I like that it draws agro. That's a neat mechanic. What's not neat is that using it will still require spamming it, just more frequently.

I can envision a use-case if it's not on a timer, but in that case, it'll be like a bonus health pool you use right at the beginning of a mission and just recharge as needed.

[Webly]

No one seems to be pointing out that Iron Skin WAS FINE before the change.

All these ideas just seem to amount to trying to figure out how to make Rhino able to do what he used to do, without just doing what he used to do.

 

Make Iron Skin like it was before (adjust duration or cost if you really think it's OP) and add a 75 cost skill that draws all aggro (since no one fits Radial Blast as long as they have Rhino Stomp).

[goozilla]

800 damage? That's the same as giving him a doubling overshield, for triple shields for 10 seconds. Shields still aren't affected by armor. That's going to die off in the first 3~5 seconds of continuous fire.

 

Edit: Oh, and if you're making such a drastic change to a frame, please don't do the update on a Friday then take off for the weekend. Do it on a Monday, check the feedback on Tuesday and Wednesday, and fork out a suitable hotfix on Wednesday/Thursday.

 

Edit 2: Just remembered. Glaive still doesn't do elemental damage when thrown client sided. Works fine in host. And are toxic ancients' residue poison clouds/aura supposed to DoT the defense pod? Seems silly when the thing is an airtight and fully sealed cryopod. I'm just sayin'.

Edited May 21, 2013 by goozilla

[gamefreak9149]

but isn't the idea of this topic to discuss the patch before it is released and there can be changes/adjustments before going live so the reaction isn't as strong as the last patch ?!

To be honest, i was under the impression this was still for may 19th feedback still. I could be mistaken and if I am, I am sorry for misunderstanding.

[Nehmetawy]

I'm not overtly certain if this is really a hot topic or not, but after testing and reviewing several dozen abilities and verifying them against the numbers that we have posted on the wiki, many abilities have no increase from rank 0 to rank 1 aside from install cost. I mostly bring this up because the numbers I see scaling with the Rhino Abilities go in a much more linear fashion in this thread and is quite different than what the other abilities seem to follow.

 

Examples:

Shuriken Damage: 100 / 100 / 250 / 350

Sonic Boom Damage: 25 / 25 / 35 / 40

Sonar Range: 20 / 20 / 25 / 30

World on Fire Damage: 250 / 250 / 300 / 400

Freeze Damage: 25 / 25 / 50 / 75

Ice Wave Damage: 300 / 300 / 445 / 565

Decoy Duration: 8 / 8 / 12 / 16

 

 

 

[Zogg]

To be honest, i was under the impression this was still for may 19th feedback still. I could be mistaken and if I am, I am sorry for misunderstanding.

 

perhaps you're right and I'm just using it wrong :D

anyway I'm happy there are some interesing ideas for an IS rework like the percentage of shield dmg cap ans/or armor rating being considered for teh cap.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Zogg

[Kynian]

No one seems to be pointing out that Iron Skin WAS FINE before the change.

All these ideas just seem to amount to trying to figure out how to make Rhino able to do what he used to do, without just doing what he used to do.

 

Make Iron Skin like it was before (adjust duration or cost if you really think it's OP) and add a 75 cost skill that draws all aggro (since no one fits Radial Blast as long as they have Rhino Stomp).

No. I play Rhino, he's my favorite frame, but Ironskin was indeed OP. Not as OP as Trinity's Link, but well... this isn't about Trinit.

It needed the change, that's a fact. The change was too brutal, another fact. Adjusting it until it gets to a fine point is what we need, I believe.

I'll just say it again - Bump Ironskin damage reduction to 95% on Max rank, slightly lower duration, full immunity from negative status effects such as knockbacks, knockdowns, poison, drain, fire, ice and electricity (i dont think there are fire ice and electricity damage enemies out there yet, but might as well be. fire is environmental).

And, since the taunt is there (GREAT THING BTW), I say reduce his movement speed while Ironskin is active by a wooping 70%, and make Rhino unable do sprint, jump and wallrun.

Now you can't just pop it and run to the end of the map. In fact, you can't run at all, you're freaking heavy as iron. You pop it to fight and protect.

(Think Metal Mario. He isn't immune to damage, but is ridiculously resillient. He's also slow. A Metal Mario-ish Ironskin would be the best imo, + the taunt)

[Wriith]

Apologies, but I'm failing to see what suggests we nerfed her further?

After testing and explaining the situation with Banshee during Sound Quake, the designers quickly realized that enemies who are supposed to be staggered were running through the Attack, which was a bug that has been fixed.

 

Hopefully this stagger effect extends to ancients and chargers, because currently they just saunter up to you and slap you in the mouth.  I'm willing to see how this change works out before I pass judgement, although I will say the biggest problem I'm having currently is that ungodly after-animation pause that the skill has.  I have been murked so many times during that pause, ugh.  Hopefully the stagger effect lasts long enough for Banshee to actually stand up and become mobile again.

 

As for the Rhino change, I too am curious if those 800 shields are in addition to the 80% damage mitigation.  If they are, then that's a really welcome change.  If not, that sounds like a downgrade over the current implementation.  800 shields with no mitigation can drop in the blink of an eye, especially if you're drawing the fire of all nearby enemies.  I'm curious to see how this change turns out, but I'd also like some more info on it (damage reduction, duration, disruption resistance, poison resistance, etc).

 

Also, any word on the on-going immunity bug that's affecting most frames' ultimates?  I know Mag and Volt are both having somewhat of a bad time now that enemies outside their range can fill them full of lead (or lasers, take your pick) during their long, dramatic animations.

 

Thanks for the update!

Edited May 21, 2013 by Wriith

[goozilla]

No. I play Rhino, he's my favorite frame, but Ironskin was indeed OP. Not as OP as Trinity's Link, but well... this isn't about Trinit.

It needed the change, that's a fact. The change was too brutal, another fact. Adjusting it until it gets to a fine point is what we need, I believe.

I'll just say it again - Bump Ironskin damage reduction to 95% on Max rank, slightly lower duration, full immunity from negative status effects such as knockbacks, knockdowns, poison, drain, fire, ice and electricity (i dont think there are fire ice and electricity damage enemies out there yet, but might as well be. fire is environmental).

And, since the taunt is there (GREAT THING BTW), I say reduce his movement speed while Ironskin is active by a wooping 70%, and make Rhino unable do sprint, jump and wallrun.

Now you can't just pop it and run to the end of the map. In fact, you can't run at all, you're freaking heavy as iron. You pop it to fight and protect.

(Think Metal Mario. He isn't immune to damage, but is ridiculously resillient. He's also slow. A Metal Mario-ish Ironskin would be the best imo, + the taunt)

 

You forget the part where Trinity isn't rank locked like Rhino, and Rhino costs the most in Platinum. Trinity has 3 fantastic skills, and 1 average skill that lasted even waaay into lategame, while Rhino really only had two, Iron Skin and Rhino Stomp, the latter of which costs too much for its pathetic effect.

[Nehmetawy]

As an odd suggestion since the overshield version is presented, on Rhino's Ironskin why not give him the 80% damage reduction like it is and in addition let him ignore the first 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 from each hit incoming damage. This gives him an effective invincibility against small amounts of damage, but giant spikes will still kill him.

 

Something like:

 

(400 Damage incoming - 200 Reduction).8 =  40 damage dealt to shields.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Nehmetawy

[gamefreak9149]

perhaps you're right and I'm just using it wrong :D

anyway I'm happy there are some interesing ideas for an IS rework like the percentage of shield dmg cap ans/or armor rating being considered for teh cap.

Or we are both using it wrong, ether way I agree lots of good ideas going around on the tread.

[Ardhanarishvara]

And, since the taunt is there (GREAT THING BTW), I say reduce his movement speed while Ironskin is active by a wooping 70%, and make Rhino unable do sprint, jump and wallrun.

Now you can't just pop it and run to the end of the map. In fact, you can't run at all, you're freaking heavy as iron. You pop it to fight and protect.

Naw, that really messes with the fun of it. I'm sure I'm not the only person who pops Iron Skin and then runs in to punch everything in the face with Furax. It wouldn't be much of a difference when there's Infested (since they all run up to you anyways) but for Corpus and Grineer you'd be forced to use your ranged weapons which, frankly, you should never be outright forced into a certain playstyle after using an ability.

 

Then there's the consideration that you won't really be able to move to cover, so after pulling aggro (which I still feel would be better used on Radial Blast or something rather than Iron Skin) your goose would pretty much be cooked. Rhino's already got pretty much the slowest movement speed of the bunch, there's no reason to hinder his movement even further.

 

I would much much rather have Rhino's Iron Skin remain the same as it is now than let it get changed to what Rebecca just brought us, and, sorry, but I like your idea even less.

[TennoSkoom]

To be honest a numerical cap for Rhino's iron seems less useful for higher difficulties than a more strict duration or power cost (Many have suggested making it rhino's ult, and I'd be fine with that as it's his most useful power.). It might not be a problem. +aggro while using iron skin is however a good idea as it better enables rhino to fullfill his role. I just worry on higher difficulties iron skin with a +aggo and such a relatively low damage absorbed limit will result in people popping iron skin, drawing aggro, then having all the enemies in the area instantly burn through it and then rhino's shields and health resulting in a 'push this button if you want to die instantly' kind of power. It should be fine on lower difficulties- I will have to playtest this before I can say it's okay or not.

 

Banshee's damage is somewhat lacking on higher content but the stagger will make the lack of invuln less of an issue. Getting torn apart by infested while using the ultimate on the ground was the biggest problem with banshee's ultimate as it takes so terribly long. The only way to mitigate this problem with infested was to avoid using it on the ground and instead use it on a box where you cannot be reached using it on the ground against corpus and granieer was okay as you'd take fire but unlike with the infested it seldom meant instant death.

 

I look forward to seeing the market changes.

Edited May 21, 2013 by AnalogAnomaly

[w00tm0ng3r]

While I appreciate the thought you've put into Rhino, an 800 damage shield is actually significantly worse than even 70% damage reduction. The absolute worst case scenario for the current setup (level 30 you have 450 shields, not even taking health into account here) you gain 1050 shields. With a decent level redirection you're looking at about 2000 extra shields, and we haven't even gotten into health yet. 

 

Quantitatively, a high Xini level (37 ish) infested charger does around 132 damage per swipe and it swipes twice per second. 800 damage will only stand up to one level 40 charger for about 3 seconds. I've let a single level 90 Corpus crewman shoot me just to see what would happen. He ripped through 870 shields and half of my 580 health within 2 seconds. A. Single. Crewman. The problem is that higher level enemies do so much damage and have so much health flat anything stops working. Flat damage abilities start sucking, even those that do true damage. Flat health or damage reduction doesn't work very well without truly obscene values. The only things that make a difference at that stage are absolute invulnerability or percent damage reduction for defense or percent max health true damage for offense (slight caveat: the third option is to do both at the same time and make the enemies kill themselves for you with their own obscene damage ala Trinity and Nyx).

 

The taunt would have been a great thing with the old iron skin, and let Rhino do some more real tanking (note: being tanky does not mean you're tanking). However, with only a 800 damage shield to protect him it would merely be well intentioned suicide. 

 

I like the idea of replacing radial blast with a wide aoe taunt. It gives Rhino another useful ability and splits the skills allowing both to be more powerful. Iron skin can be pumped up to a level where taunting everything wouldn't instantly kill you. The taunt can be appreciably powerful since it won't be tacked onto a damage mitigation.

[SGVK]

Invulnerability with 800 damage cap!? That's the same as nothing! High level enemies will tear through that very easily! You need to change Iron Skin back to the way it was, plus the aggro (that's a beautiful addition!). Change it back, but increase the energy cost to 75 or even 100. Hell, you should actually change places between Iron Skin and Rhino Stomp. Iron Skin looks more like an ultimate ability for a tank than Rhino Stomp does. Pretty please!

[Worira]

No see

 

When we said "fix rhino" what we meant was "fix rhino"

 

not, for example, "don't fix rhino"

 

Seriously though, did you even test this? Go to a high-level defense mission, use this, die instantly, realize this doesn't solve anything.

[PositronicSpleen]

The main idea is that on places like Pluto -- can we all at least agree mechanics should work on Pluto? -- the times you would want to use Iron Skin are also times that a frame would be instantly vaporized, and that 80% of "lots of damage" is still enough to die, and "lots of damage" - 800 is also enough to die. Adding an aggro mechanic came up in another thread, and it's an interesting idea, but it will turn "lots of damage" into "even more lots of damage". Adding aggro is even more of a reason to make it true invulnerability again.

 

One idea is to revert him to pre-nerf, and if anything, tweak energy and duration.

 

Okay, but here's another idea: set a maximum damage per hit. Nothing can do more than a certain amount in one hit. I don't know if it should be a flat value or a percentage of his health/shields/whatever, but I think that would solve the "instantly vaporized" and "invulnerable is bad" issues that each side can't reconcile.

Edited May 21, 2013 by PositronicSpleen

[Kynian]

Naw, that really messes with the fun of it. I'm sure I'm not the only person who pops Iron Skin and then runs in to punch everything in the face with Furax. It wouldn't be much of a difference when there's Infested (since they all run up to you anyways) but for Corpus and Grineer you'd be forced to use your ranged weapons which, frankly, you should never be outright forced into a certain playstyle after using an ability.

 

Then there's the consideration that you won't really be able to move to cover, so after pulling aggro (which I still feel would be better used on Radial Blast or something rather than Iron Skin) your goose would pretty much be cooked. Rhino's already got pretty much the slowest movement speed of the bunch, there's no reason to hinder his movement even further.

 

I would much much rather have Rhino's Iron Skin remain the same as it is now than let it get changed to what Rebecca just brought us, and, sorry, but I like your idea even less.

There we go, constructive criticism at it's finest. Good arguments, you actually made me change my mind about changing his movement speed further, because I was really thinking on infested the most, and completely overlooked the fact that grineer and corpus have ranged offensive capabilities, and don't need to run to your face to smack you.

I suggested a reduced movment speed upon use because one of the arguments regarding Ironskin was that it made it too easy to rush. Pop it, and run towards exit. Once IS deactivates, reactivate it, resume running. Rinse repeat.

Well, taking the movement speed debuff out, I still think my idea is quite valid. Basically, just bump his damage reduction to 95% at max rank and make him immune to status effects such as poison, knockdown, knockback, stagger, and (especially) drain. I believe that beats the 800 damage cap full immunity (but won't be sure until I test it).

The con of that is that shields do not regenerate, since you are taking damage on shields. For it to regen, you need to use some sort of CC (hence his other skills need to be looked into as well) to allow for regeneration, or simply get the hell out of there and get to cover. If shields regenerated it'd be too much of a walk i the park.

[Kynian]

No see

 

When we said "fix rhino" what we meant was "fix rhino"

 

not, for example, "don't fix rhino"

 

Seriously though, did you even test this? Go to a high-level defense mission, use this, die instantly, realize this doesn't solve anything.

I do know for a fact that YOU haven't tested that. Maybe it interacts with mods to make the absorption stronger. Before you diss, test it. And since you can't test it yet, keep whatever critics/complaints/QQs constructive.

Yours is not, in the least, constructive.

[beol]

Warning: Theoryframe ..

 

1110 shields with 80% damage reduction would absorb 5550 damage.

740 health with 150 armour and 80% damage reduction would absorb 9250 damage. With 315 armour that would be 11655.

1110 shields, 740 health, 315 armour and an 800 point buffer (assuming it functions like a shield) would absorb 4981 damage combined.

 

If a maxy max rhino under the 80% iron skin took 2000 damage, he would still have 710 shields left, which could absorb another 3550 damage under iron skin.

If a maxy max rhino with an 800 point shield-like buffer took 2000 damage, he would have no shield and have lost a little health. 3550 more damage would kill him with plenty to spare.

[Kynian]

Warning: Theoryframe ..

 

1110 shields with 80% damage reduction would absorb 5550 damage.

740 health with 150 armour and 80% damage reduction would absorb 9250 damage. With 315 armour that would be 11655.

1110 shields, 740 health, 315 armour and an 800 point buffer (assuming it functions like a shield) would absorb 4981 damage combined.

 

If a maxy max rhino under the 80% iron skin took 2000 damage, he would still have 710 shields left, which could absorb another 3550 damage under iron skin.

If a maxy max rhino with an 800 point shield-like buffer took 2000 damage, he would have no shield and have lost a little health. 3550 more damage would kill him with plenty to spare.

Problem with that is that, apparently, armor ratings don't apply to shields, with mods or otherwise.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I would be really glad to be wrong here.

If I'm right though, I believe it's a bug that needs a fix asap.

Edited May 21, 2013 by Kynian

[LunchBoxKilla]

Warning: Theoryframe ..

 

1110 shields with 80% damage reduction would absorb 5550 damage.

740 health with 150 armour and 80% damage reduction would absorb 9250 damage. With 315 armour that would be 11655.

1110 shields, 740 health, 315 armour and an 800 point buffer (assuming it functions like a shield) would absorb 4981 damage combined.

 

If a maxy max rhino under the 80% iron skin took 2000 damage, he would still have 710 shields left, which could absorb another 3550 damage under iron skin.

If a maxy max rhino with an 800 point shield-like buffer took 2000 damage, he would have no shield and have lost a little health. 3550 more damage would kill him with plenty to spare.

That would be the small select few play to win rhino players out. I have a more "Balanced" rhino so I can keep up with "MAD RUSHING" players because people seem to forget that a rhino is the slowest hunk of whale crap in the whole game (Along with his frost bro).

I would also like to point out WHEN HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A RHINO RUSH?

Yeah there were times I was first to the exit as a rhino but it was because people were more focused on looting lockers and chests. 90% of the time I'm like that kid from Christmas story going "HEY GUYS WAIT FOR MEEE :( "

Edited May 21, 2013 by LunchBoxKilla

[cyrus106]

Warning: Theoryframe ..

 

1110 shields with 80% damage reduction would absorb 5550 damage.

740 health with 150 armour and 80% damage reduction would absorb 9250 damage. With 315 armour that would be 11655.

1110 shields, 740 health, 315 armour and an 800 point buffer (assuming it functions like a shield) would absorb 4981 damage combined.

 

If a maxy max rhino under the 80% iron skin took 2000 damage, he would still have 710 shields left, which could absorb another 3550 damage under iron skin.

If a maxy max rhino with an 800 point shield-like buffer took 2000 damage, he would have no shield and have lost a little health. 3550 more damage would kill him with plenty to spare.

Ironskin doesn't apply to health, only to shields. It really SHOULD apply to health