May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[K1LLZ0NE]

Actually I was refering to vonDirks comment about other frames having abilitys that scale, to compensate for those that dont, sorry for the confusion.

 

Whether they are par or sub-par doesnt exclude the fact that Rhino does have other skills.  Likewise other frames do, do some things better and some things worse than others.  Clearly while slash dash or bastille are better than rhinos counter-parts rhino can take allot more damage than either of them too.

 

Okay, sorry if it seemed like I was attacking you.  I get what you were saying.  Also, while I understand some 'frames are worse than some but better than others, Rhino is worse than everything.  While Rhino may take a little bit more damage, he deals considerably less.   

[Loswaith]

Oh I didnt take it as attacking me, more a misunderstanding on what my referal was too.

 

On topic:

Powers aside, Rhino has the same damage dealing potential as every other warframe.  Just because Rhino uses a Hek (as an example) doesnt mean the Hek does any less damage than any other warframe using that same Hek, likewise Loki using the Hek doesnt grant him any more damage than any other warframe.

Rhinos powers arent about dealing damage (this is good for Rhino, as all the damage frames get worse the more health and armour enemies have), like other frames that have less armour/shields (Frost seems like an oddity in that factor, as it has caster powers with a tank frame), damage is clearly not everything in the equasion either.

 

I do realise that DE changed the invunlerability for a reason, sure I'd like to know that reason (because he clearly isnt getting it back with most hard invunlerabilities being taken out), but I'd also like them to consider soft invunlerability options too.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Loswaith

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Oh I didnt take it as attacking me, more a misunderstanding on what my referal was too.

 

On topic:

Powers aside, Rhino has the same damage dealing potential as every other warframe.  Just because Rhino uses a Hek (as an example) doesnt mean the Hek does any less damage than any other warframe using that same Hek, likewise Loki using the Hek doesnt grant him any more damage than any other warframe.

Rhinos powers arent about dealing damage, like other frames that have less armour/shields (Frost seems like an oddity in that factor), damage is clearly not everything in the equasion either.

but other frames can use their abilities for added damage, i.e. a saryn ult, or a ash ult, etc increase their damage potential far far above rhino's

[K1LLZ0NE]

Oh I didnt take it as attacking me, more a misunderstanding on what my referal was too.

 

On topic:

Powers aside, Rhino has the same damage dealing potential as every other warframe.  Just because Rhino uses a Hek (as an example) doesnt mean the Hek does any less damage than any other warframe using that same Hek, likewise Loki using the Hek doesnt grant him any more damage than any other warframe.

Rhinos powers arent about dealing damage, like other frames that have less armour/shields (Frost seems like an oddity in that factor), damage is clearly not everything in the equasion either.

 

A warframes damage capabilities have nothing to do with the weapons they use.  While a Rhino can use a Hek, so can every other 'frame.  So it comes down to abilities.  I know that his abilities aren't meant for damage.  I don't want them to deal lots of damage.  My point is that because of the nature of his abilities Iron Skin should be the way it was.  If only a little more expensive.  Rhino doesn't deal damage, and he doesn't provide support for other teammates.  

[Keyza]

A warframes damage capabilities have nothing to do with the weapons they use.  While a Rhino can use a Hek, so can every other 'frame.  So it comes down to abilities.  I know that his abilities aren't meant for damage.  I don't want them to deal lots of damage.  My point is that because of the nature of his abilities Iron Skin should be the way it was.  If only a little more expensive.  Rhino doesn't deal damage, and he doesn't provide support for other teammates.  

 

I agree which is why Rhino is taking a rather hard hit after the update removed invulnerability and he is left with no damage nor utility abilities worth mentioning. 

 

Though I see Rhino as more of a tank/support role, none of his abilities reflect him as such.

 

I have posted some of my thoughts addressing some of Rhino's issues and alternative solutions.

 

Feel free to check it out.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/48480-a-newbies-pov-of-rhino/

[Loswaith]

but other frames can use their abilities for added damage, i.e. a saryn ult, or a ash ult, etc increase their damage potential far far above rhino's

True they can, but those abilities do less and less percentage of an enemies health with every level an enemy gains.  Both of them also ignore armour (which not all frames can claim). Ash can take less damage than Rhino too while Saryn can be specifically built to take just as much.  If we only look at damage mitigation Rhino is clearly better than almost any other frame.

 

Looking only at damage a warframe can deal/take, isn't seeing the whole picture either, otherwise we would have to have 12 frames all identical... which would be clearly boring.

 

Sure as players we can overlook some of these aspects and not be bothered by it, however DE cant, in the name of a balanced game.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Loswaith

[goozilla]

The whole idea of biting the bullet and drawing aggro is to migitate damage off your team by focusing enemy damage all on yourself, correct? And that works on pretty much every game that uses the "tank," because they have some way of sustain.

 

800 damage invul is not sustain. 80% DR is not sustain. It is, however, stupid. Might as well play Loki, then. Instead of having 3 useless skills and a frame defining skill pre-patch, you now have 3 useless skills and, in the words of Fishworshipper or Ki11zone or whoever, "a suicide button."

 

Prove me wrong.

Edited May 23, 2013 by goozilla

[goozilla]

If we only look at damage mitigation Rhino is clearly better than almost any other frame.

 

 

Huehuehue, because I enjoy tanking with my unrecoverable health. Yesirree.

[K1LLZ0NE]

True they can, but those abilities do less and less percentage of an enemies health with every level an enemy gains.  Both of them also ignore armour (which not all frames can claim). Ash can take less damage than Rhino too while Saryn can be specifically built to take just as much.  If we only look at damage mitigation Rhino is clearly better than almost any other frame.

 

Looking only at damage a warframe can deal/take, isn't seeing the whole picture either, otherwise we would have to have 12 frames all identical... which would be clearly boring.

 

Sure as players we can overlook some of these aspects and not be bothered by it, however DE cant, in the name of a balanced game.

 

They may deal less damage on higher level enemies, however they will still do more damage than Rhino would against those same enemies.  And honestly, at a certain level, Loki and Rhino will both get equally screwed by opponents without taking abilities into account.  However, once you do take their abilities into account, Loki is better at both taking less damage, dealing more damage, and providing a supportive role for the team.

Edited May 23, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[goozilla]

 However, once you do take their abilities into account, Loki is better at both taking less damage, dealing more damage, and providing a supportive role for the team.

Basically, what makes Loki so top tier is because he has 2 godlike utility moves that are relatively cheap compared to his energy pool. And again, Loki's a utility frame, much like Batman. He's not designed to deal damage directly through skills; he does it indirectly by himself. Rhino used to be able to do that. But now? Not so much.

[KvotheTheArcane1]

True they can, but those abilities do less and less percentage of an enemies health with every level an enemy gains.  Both of them also ignore armour (which not all frames can claim). Ash can take less damage than Rhino too while Saryn can be specifically built to take just as much.  If we only look at damage mitigation Rhino is clearly better than almost any other frame.

 

Looking only at damage a warframe can deal/take, isn't seeing the whole picture either, otherwise we would have to have 12 frames all identical... which would be clearly boring.

 

Sure as players we can overlook some of these aspects and not be bothered by it, however DE cant, in the name of a balanced game.

true, but you can't overlook it, rhino DOESN'T have the same damage potential as other frames, his is much lower, and right now, the damage reduction doesn't work that well, esp vs higher level enemies, AND he's very slow (only frost is the same speed, and rhino can get slower if we toss his helm on)

Edited May 23, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[goozilla]

On the bright side, the new suicide Iron Skin would provide a pseudo-challenge mode for the endgame content we lack so much. See who can last the longest in Outer Terminus or Xini while using Iron Skin non stop.

 

My "only" concern is what happens after the 800 damage invul. Do you still have the aggro effect on? And can you cast it immediately after the 800 damage soak is up? Its the same issue Energy Vamp runs into.

Edited May 23, 2013 by goozilla

[K1LLZ0NE]

On the bright side, the new suicide Iron Skin would provide a pseudo-challenge mode for the endgame content we lack so much. See who can last the longest in Outer Terminus or Xini while using Iron Skin non stop.

 

 

Challenge Accepted!!!!

[Loswaith]

The whole idea of biting the bullet and drawing aggro is to migitate damage off your team by focusing enemy damage all on yourself, correct? And that works on pretty much every game that uses the "tank," because they have some way of sustain.

 

800 damage invul is not sustain. 80% DR is not sustain. It is, however, stupid. Might as well play Loki, then. Instead of having 3 useless skills and a frame defining skill pre-patch, you now have 3 useless skills and, in the words of Fishworshipper or Ki11zone or whoever, "a suicide button."

 

Prove me wrong.

Did you consider that the sustainable Invunlerability is the issue?

 

800 damage is 800 damage reguardless of the source that is taking it, whether it be Loki, Rhino, Frost, Excalibur or any other warframe (they all have shields/health taking that 800 damage).  If that 800 damage is astounding to take, then it doesnt matter what warframe is taking it, or what power is taking it, its the fact that 800 damage is astounding to take is the issue.   Its kind of like picking up a spiked ball with an unprotected hand and it stabing you, the spikes arent the issue the issue is you picking it up with your unprotected hand, because you want to pick up the ball.

Saying 800 damage is only an issue for Ironskin isnt curing the condition, its curing the effect.  It'sexactly like saying 800 shields are pointless (which no one is doing), since thats how the Ironskin will behave (on the limited knowledge we have). 

 

Ever consider that Loki's decoy and Saryns Moult are both similar to those damage numbers in what they can take, which is why the sugestion was for that?  The actual damage either can take isnt mentioned anywhere I know of.

 

I've never been saying the other powers dont need enhancing, thats kind of like saying the warframes dont need to be balanced, there are obviously areas that need fixing.  Honestly sticking your fingers in your ears and drowning out any ideas other than "bring back the old ironskin" (which DE has effectivly said 'No' to already), isnt having any effect other than to have people ignore your otherwise good and accurate comments.

 

The taunt actually gives you more tactial use of Rhino than the original Ironskin does, if you think about its use rather than "DUH, I'll stand out where everyone can shoot me".

 

I have played other games where the taunt and absorption shield work extreemly well with intellegent play to tank, so it clearly works.

[Loswaith]

true, but you can't overlook it, rhino DOESN'T have the same damage potential as other frames, his is much lower, and right now, the damage reduction doesn't work that well, esp vs higher level enemies, AND he's very slow (only frost is the same speed, and rhino can get slower if we toss his helm on)

I agree (for the most part, though there are allot of contenders at the highend game), but the power is currently bugged, so its hard to get an idea of how it actually will be when its correctly working.

 

@goozilla

Given you can recast other abilities as soon as they end, id say its likely you can as soon as it runs out.  As to the taunt, who knows, I'd hope it disperses like normal though at that point.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Loswaith

[goozilla]

Did you consider that the sustainable Invunlerability is the issue?

 

800 damage is 800 damage reguardless of the source that is taking it, whether it be Loki, Rhino, Frost, Excalibur or any other warframe (they all have shields/health taking that 800 damage).  If that 800 damage is astounding to take, then it doesnt matter what warframe is taking it, or what power is taking it, its the fact that 800 damage is astounding to take is the issue.   Its kind of like picking up a spiked ball with an unprotected hand and it stabing you, the spikes arent the issue the issue is you picking it up with your unprotected hand, because you want to pick up the ball.

Saying 800 damage is only an issue for Ironskin isnt curing the condition, its curing the effect.  It'sexactly like saying 800 shields are pointless (which no one is doing), since thats how the Ironskin will behave (on the limited knowledge we have). 

 

Ever consider that Loki's decoy and Saryns Moult are both similar to those damage numbers in what they can take, which is why the sugestion was for that?  The actual damage either can take isnt mentioned anywhere I know of.

 

I've never been saying the other powers dont need enhancing, thats kind of like saying the warframes dont need to be balanced, there are obviously areas that need fixing.  Honestly sticking your fingers in your ears and drowning out any ideas other than "bring back the old ironskin" (which DE has effectivly said 'No' to already), isnt having any effect other than to have people ignore your otherwise good and accurate comments.

 

The taunt actually gives you more tactial use of Rhino than the original Ironskin does, if you think about its use rather than "DUH, I'll stand out where everyone can shoot me".

 

I have played other games where the taunt and absorption shield work extreemly well with intellegent play to tank, so it clearly works.

Did you ever consider that sustained tanking is what a tank is supposed to do? MMO tanks have heals/potions on top of their DRs/invuls. Rhinos currently have no way to sustain. Once that 800 is gone (its gone in a snap in Ceres and after), you're left with facetanking your shields and health, the latter of which, again, has no way to recover, unless you have Trinity, red orbs falling from the sky, or load up your 8 gear slots with large health restores.

 

See the problem? If I want to tank, I need a Trinity, or red orbs pouring down my throat. The latter is highly unlikely, as seeing that they're only available through containers and lockers, and if there's a Trinity on my team, why the hell am I tanking?

 

 

800 sounds like a big number, but it dwindles faster than the 80% DR we currently have. Now that we have aggro, its literally a "kill me faster" button.

 

Edit: @Loswaith again

Once you kill the target while its inflicted with Energy Vamp, you can not cast it again until the timer runs out, meaning if you cast E.Vamp on a target with a sliver of health left, and kill it, you get a power in use notice for the next 10 seconds.

Edited May 23, 2013 by goozilla

[Loswaith]

Did you ever consider that sustained tanking is what a tank is supposed to do? MMO tanks have heals/potions on top of their DRs/invuls. Rhinos currently have no way to sustain. Once that 800 is gone (its gone in a snap in Ceres and after), you're left with facetanking your shields and health, the latter of which, again, has no way to recover, unless you have Trinity, red orbs falling from the sky, or load up your 8 gear slots with large health restores.

 

See the problem? If I want to tank, I need a Trinity, or red orbs pouring down my throat. The latter is highly unlikely, as seeing that they're only available through containers and lockers, and if there's a Trinity on my team, why the hell am I tanking?

 

 

800 sounds like a big number, but it dwindles faster than the 80% DR we currently have. Now that we have aggro, its literally a "kill me faster" button.

How is that not a problem of the damage eneimes dish-out rather than a problem of Rhino only having an extra boost of 800 shields (abet spamable 800)?

 

Yes I have considered that Rhino is meant to tank (ie Take more damage than others), sustained tanking not necessarily, but tanking yes.  Maybe the current 80% DR version is better, it hasnt been tried in its unbugged form, and the ablative shield hasnt been tried at all.

 

Trinity cant tank anywhere near as well as Rhino without a target in range for link either.  If you are in a group with Trinity Rhino's health and armour becomes vastly useful in tanking, because Trinity can heal it.

 

Yes I see the issue, but in all fairness no MMO tank can sustain tank without heals or a healer either.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Loswaith

[K1LLZ0NE]

Did you consider that the sustainable Invunlerability is the issue?

 

800 damage is 800 damage reguardless of the source that is taking it, whether it be Loki, Rhino, Frost, Excalibur or any other warframe (they all have shields/health taking that 800 damage).  If that 800 damage is astounding to take, then it doesnt matter what warframe is taking it, or what power is taking it, its the fact that 800 damage is astounding to take is the issue.   Its kind of like picking up a spiked ball with an unprotected hand and it stabing you, the spikes arent the issue the issue is you picking it up with your unprotected hand, because you want to pick up the ball.

Saying 800 damage is only an issue for Ironskin isnt curing the condition, its curing the effect.  It'sexactly like saying 800 shields are pointless (which no one is doing), since thats how the Ironskin will behave (on the limited knowledge we have). 

 

Ever consider that Loki's decoy and Saryns Moult are both similar to those damage numbers in what they can take, which is why the sugestion was for that?  The actual damage either can take isnt mentioned anywhere I know of.

 

I've never been saying the other powers dont need enhancing, thats kind of like saying the warframes dont need to be balanced, there are obviously areas that need fixing.  Honestly sticking your fingers in your ears and drowning out any ideas other than "bring back the old ironskin" (which DE has effectivly said 'No' to already), isnt having any effect other than to have people ignore your otherwise good and accurate comments.

 

The taunt actually gives you more tactial use of Rhino than the original Ironskin does, if you think about its use rather than "DUH, I'll stand out where everyone can shoot me".

 

I have played other games where the taunt and absorption shield work extreemly well with intellegent play to tank, so it clearly works.

 

I believe the issue is not how much damage mobs do.  If that were the case, the only way to fix it would be to nerf the enemies, which is totally unnecessary.  The reason it doesn't come down to how much damage mobs can do is because there are several ways of "ignoring" that damage already implemented.  Snow Globe is the easiest example  Completely reduces damage.  Not a % of the damage, not a damage cap, but flat out stops damage being dealt.  Most 'frames have varying ways of either stopping, or avoiding damage.  And because Rhino is so slow he has to be up close and personal with the enemy.  There is just no other way to play him.  And since he is not supposed to be a, "run up to enemy, hit button, everything dies" kind of 'frame, the only alternative is to run up and take as much damage as possible.  And again because of his poor speed its not like he can run back and forth from attacking to cover.  He either is out there smashing everything in the face, or he is hanging back shooting.  If you play him as the latter, you're being very inefficient, since Frost can do this MUCH better.  If you run up and smash things in the face, you're dead.  I have yet to hear anybody give a viable play style for a Rhino without pure invulnerability. 

Edited May 23, 2013 by K1LLZ0NE

[s3kShUn08]

so we can all agree that this was in fact a "nerf" of the rhino for apparently no legitamate reason other than being the whim of a DEV that thought he would change the entire play style of a frame.

I really, I mean REALLY want to know, who complained about Iron Skin ina PVE GAME!

 

I keep saying this, because I honestly believe it to be true, The nerf was more for the PVP dojo sparring than it was for the PVE. The whole design council voicing concerns on certian pwers, to me, is BS. Letting the personnal perferences of a few privilidged people get the priority for feedback while dismissing the large playerbase is ridiculous. Not knowing the actual numbers of founders with this privilidge, I cant say how much of a minority/majority they may, or may not be. In livestream 8 they mention how they, "won't take a nerf hammer to the powers that we've grown accustomed to in the real game" 

Hell they even mentioned how they "realized" that "every decimal they change affects thousands of players" but when the player base voces their concerns and their dislike to a change they are brushed off. It makes it hard for me to really WANT to invest further in this game when alread even BEFORE the PVP element is introduced, the devs are following in the same footsteps of so many other F2P games. Becoming a PAY to PLAY by changing most of the market to platinum only otherwise having to immediately farm making it difficult on new players to keep interest, or having a policy of nerfing everything that a few people complain about because of their own preferences. UNLESS something is causing an ACTUAL problem, in my opinion leave it. No one sends in IMs of "Hey this is great keep it the same!" while the vast majority of IMs are going to be complaints. So like I said before, unless their is a LEGITIMATE PROBLEM with something don't act on the opinions and criticisms of the few only to do so and find out the vast majority are against it.

[goozilla]

How is that not a problem of the damage eneimes dish-out rather than a problem of Rhino only having an extra boost of 800 shields (abet spamable 800)?

 

Yes I have considered that Rhino is meant to tank (ie Take more damage than others), sustained tanking not necessarily, but tanking yes.  Maybe the current 80% DR version is better, it hasnt been tried in its unbugged form, and the ablative shield hasnt been tried at all.

 

Trinity cant tank anywhere near as well as Rhino without a target in range for link either.  If you are in a group with Trinity Rhino's health and armour becomes vastly useful in tanking, because Trinity can heal it.

 

Yes I see the issue, but in all fairness no MMO tank can sustain tank without heals or a healer either.

>Range

Again.

>Range

Trinity's range on Link is so ridiculously far, there's literally no merit in even mentioning it. In fact, it hinders your argument. I've played both Rhino and Trinity extensively. Trinity EASILY trumps Rhino in all regards even without a Reactor late game.

 

And again, who said its spammable? If it acts like any other buff in the game, it has to run its timer before you can cast it again, much like EVamp and Overheat.

Edited May 23, 2013 by goozilla

[Loswaith]

@s3kSU...

Actually the Rhino being OP posts were from the general forums.  You can likely find some in the general/warframe forums pages back or searches about "god mode".

 

@goozilla

  I was figuring it working more like Moult and Decoy, than other abilities with only a timed effect.

 

Also unfortunatly in allot of games healers will be better than tanks because of their inherant surviveability.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Loswaith

[s3kShUn08]

Actually the Rhino being OP posts were from the general forums.  You can likely find some in the general/warframe forums pages back or searches about "god mode".

Coming from a Master founder with access to DC,

 

<_<

right...

[Loswaith]

Yes and like many of the other Master/Grand Master, I did agree that the original Ironskin wasnt OP. (feel free to look back over my previous posts in this forum)

 

Part of the reason I see merit in arguing for some kind of soft Invunlerability rather than, harping at something the devs have said no to.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Loswaith

[goozilla]

@s3kSU...

Actually the Rhino being OP posts were from the general forums.  You can likely find some in the general/warframe forums pages back or searches about "god mode".

 

If Rhino was OP because of Iron Skin, then the argument can be made that every Frame that can clear rooms in a push of a button should be nerfed.

 

Volt should be nerfed. His Overload kills a room and the next in Corpus maps.

Saryn should be nerfed. Her ulti's too good and unresisted. It also comes out too fast.

Banshee should be nerfed (again). She hits hard and clears multiple rooms.

Mag should be nerfed (again). Her Crush is still a combination of Rhino Stomp + an actual nuke.

Ash should be nerfed. His ulti clears rooms, dealing unresisted damage and granting actual invincibility during it, unlike most skills at the moment.

Excalibur should be nerfed. Radial Javelin hits hard unresisted with 15 javelins that do 1k damage, 1.3k with Focus. Nerf it to nerf dart status.

Frost should be nerfed. Avalanche is CC and nuke at same time. So OP.

Ember should be nerfed back to what she was. WoF actually clearing stuff? OP mang, OP.

 

The whole "Iron Skin is OP because its 15 seconds of invulnerability" is possibly the dumbest argument to make. It isn't even direct damage. Hell, all it really does is make it easier for Rhino to do his work with his guns and sword/axe/bludgeon/fists/frisbee. That's all it did.

[s3kShUn08]

If Rhino was OP because of Iron Skin, then the argument can be made that every Frame that can clear rooms in a push of a button should be nerfed.

 

Volt should be nerfed. His Overload kills a room and the next in Corpus maps.

Saryn should be nerfed. Her ulti's too good and unresisted. It also comes out too fast.

Banshee should be nerfed (again). She hits hard and clears multiple rooms.

Mag should be nerfed (again). Her Crush is still a combination of Rhino Stomp + an actual nuke.

Ash should be nerfed. His ulti clears rooms, dealing unresisted damage and granting actual invincibility during it, unlike most skills at the moment.

Excalibur should be nerfed. Radial Javelin hits hard unresisted with 15 javelins that do 1k damage, 1.3k with Focus. Nerf it to nerf dart status.

Frost should be nerfed. Avalanche is CC and nuke at same time. So OP.

Ember should be nerfed back to what she was. WoF actually clearing stuff? OP mang, OP.

 

The whole "Iron Skin is OP because its 15 seconds of invulnerability" is possibly the dumbest argument to make. It isn't even direct damage. Hell, all it really does is make it easier for Rhino to do his work with his guns and sword/axe/bludgeon/fists/frisbee. That's all it did.

completely agree, the main use of the IS wasnt to just be invincible, it allowed for the players shields to regen which is where rhino gets his tank status. Now shields are CONSTANTLY drained unless the "tank" has to go run and hide, which is THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF A TANK.

Edited May 23, 2013 by s3kShUn08