May 19Th: Hot Feedback Topics

[Seanjuju]

New idea:

IS

-0.6(HP+SH)+300

-Skin takes a maximum of 40/35/30/25 damage from any one attack

-Aggro

 

constructive criticism only

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Coming from a Master founder with access to DC,

 

<_<

right...

TBF, I've heard that the design council ISN'T all that it's cracked up to be.

 

 

 

New idea:

IS

-0.6(HP+SH)+300

-Skin takes a maximum of 40/35/30/25 damage from any one attack

-Aggro

 

constructive criticism only

Eh, it's not terrible, but taking 25 damage per attack can add up quickly, especially when you have 10+ enemies attacking/shooting you.

Edited May 23, 2013 by KvotheTheArcane1

[Phoenix86]

Even if i totally hate "flat numbers" i'd say that an effective solution could be not "absorb a flat number of dmg" but "block a flat number of attacks"

 

Something like:

 

The next 10-10-30-50 attacks against you deals no dmg and you are immune to CC/poison/Drains...

 

This can scale even at highest difficulty levels (because enemies increase their dmg but not their attack speed) and can also prevent that a single Rhino can face tank 191473845 monsters like before, it can do it, do it well, but only against a few, very important targets...

It could result very effective against hard hitting units like ancients/heavy grineers, un-effective against little fast units (like Grineers rifles, Crewman, Crawlers) therefore encouraging a different playstyle when facing them and not just spam iron skin brainlessy.

 

What do you think about this? I think a "number of hits taken" would work better than both "flat dmg reduction" / "percentage dmg reduction"

Edited May 23, 2013 by Phoenix86

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Even if i totally hate "flat numbers" i'd say that an effective solution could be not "absorb a flat number of dmg" but "block a flat number of attacks"

 

Something like:

 

The next 10-10-30-50 attacks against you deals no dmg and you are immune to CC/poison/Drains...

 

This can scale even at highest difficulty levels (because enemies increase their dmg but not their attack speed) and can also prevent that a single Rhino can face tank 191473845 monsters like before, it can do it, do it well, but only against a few, very important targets...

 

What do you think about this? I think a "number of hits taken" would work better than both "flat dmg reduction" / "percentage dmg reduction"

Again, the big problem is the fact that if you fight 10 enemies (a low number on higher level areas) they need FIVE bullets each to hit you, before your shield goes away (and grineer have those grakata, like 10 will have trouble hitting you with an average of 5 bullets each...)

[Phoenix86]

Again, the big problem is the fact that if you fight 10 enemies (a low number on higher level areas) they need FIVE bullets each to hit you, before your shield goes away (and grineer have those grakata, like 10 will have trouble hitting you with an average of 5 bullets each...)

 

Ya i've tought about it like 0.5 sec after i clicked on "Post" XD

 

I've edited it

Edited May 23, 2013 by Phoenix86

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Ya i've tought about it like 0.5 sec after i clicked on "Post" XD

 

I've edited it

hm, that is a good point that it becomes effective vs heavier units (unless they're using something like a gorgon) and another problem (personally it's a problem) is that it doesn't allow me to safely go and rez someone who is down and in the open.

[Phoenix86]

hm, that is a good point that it becomes effective vs heavier units (unless they're using something like a gorgon) and another problem (personally it's a problem) is that it doesn't allow me to safely go and rez someone who is down and in the open.

 

yup... naa the best solution is to move from 15sec/50 power to 10sec/100 power (on max lvl) restoring it's original state and adding the new aggro priority.

 

That's it.

 

If i have to play a tank that cant tank, a tank that needs to kite than i'd play another frame.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Phoenix86

[Seanjuju]

Eh, it's not terrible, but taking 25 damage per attack can add up quickly, especially when you have 10+ enemies attacking/shooting you.

Here's a table for a frame in which the sum of HP and shield values is 1000 

From 30 to 5 maximum damage. (900 skin HP)

 

30. 30 hits (or 3  from10 sources)

25. 36 hits (or 3 from 12 sources)

20. 45 hits

15. 60 hits

10. 90 hits

5. 180 hits (or 18 hits from 10 sources)

[w00tm0ng3r]

I believe the issue is not how much damage mobs do.  If that were the case, the only way to fix it would be to nerf the enemies, which is totally unnecessary.  The reason it doesn't come down to how much damage mobs can do is because there are several ways of "ignoring" that damage already implemented.  Snow Globe is the easiest example  Completely reduces damage.  Not a % of the damage, not a damage cap, but flat out stops damage being dealt.  Most 'frames have varying ways of either stopping, or avoiding damage.  And because Rhino is so slow he has to be up close and personal with the enemy.  There is just no other way to play him.  And since he is not supposed to be a, "run up to enemy, hit button, everything dies" kind of 'frame, the only alternative is to run up and take as much damage as possible.  And again because of his poor speed its not like he can run back and forth from attacking to cover.  He either is out there smashing everything in the face, or he is hanging back shooting.  If you play him as the latter, you're being very inefficient, since Frost can do this MUCH better.  If you run up and smash things in the face, you're dead.  I have yet to hear anybody give a viable play style for a Rhino without pure invulnerability. 

 

Pretty much this. High level defense revolves around absolute defenses (read: god mode) and immense/extremely spammable CCs. Frost is the lynchpin of the team. He pops snow globe and for the most part that'll carry you pretty far. Treat the snow globe like a space station: you DO NOT moonwalk without a space suit. In this case a space suit would be another absolute defense.

 

Trinity is on just about every team too. She'll keep everyone high on health and energy, she's got a teamwide full health and shield restore + couple seconds of invincibility, and she has a personal god mode that has the beneficial side effect of making people kill themselves for you. If for some reason someone has to leave the sacrosanct sphere, Trinity will be the one to do it.

 

Note: every number I'm going to give you assumes you're properly modded, as you should be for high level defense. Don't try this without an appropriately high level frame.

 

The others are situational. Nyx is a strong pick simply because of chaos. Even after the nerf it's a devastatingly powerful ability that more than compensates for how bad the rest of her kit is. You can't really argue with a 30+ meter 26 second cluster f*** on demand, and it's not an ultimate so it doesn't even come chained to a 4 second self stun XD Again note how this is an absolute defense: the enemies don't shoot you so you take 0 damage no matter what level the enemy is. In fact they shoot each other with their own obscene damage, saving you ammo!

 

Banshee is another strong frame. Sonar quadruples the entire team's damage. One shotting level 60 ancients is fun :) Sonic boom is an extremely powerful CC for its cost. A spammable 17 meter knock down is a perfect stopgap CC for emergencies or to fill in gaps between bigger CCs. It's also really good for clearing enemies out of the snow globe. Just remember to shoot them with frost before hitting them with it. Sound quake will be a substantial CC when they get it working again >.> Not nearly as good as chaos but it hits 29 meters and is a decently lengthy stagger.

 

Vauban is untested but I have a good feeling about him. Bastille combos sublimely with snow globe. Everything outside the omnipotence sphere can't hurt you, everything inside is stunlocked to oblivion. Add in teslas to stun Corpus and vortex for damage early/mid and this guy should be a beast. 

 

Last but not least, Loki is also extremely powerful, if less flashy than the others. Against infested put the decoy on a box, against the other two put the decoy behind cover and you have an extremely long, extremely powerful lure for 19 energy. Invisibility is self explanatory, but I will say the double melee charge damage is quite nice (by this point normal melee attacks have fallen off the map so all you're doing is charge attacking). The teleport is a situational mobility move that's niche, but powerful if used correctly. Since most of the powerful abilities discussed above have infinite vertical range, you can teleport someone into the rafters on Xini/Palus, effectively giving them permanent invincibility. Teleport to a decoy and pop invisibility for instant, uncontested revives. The ultimate is more meh than decoy or invisibility, but it can be useful against the ranged enemies. Notice something cool about Loki? The man has 0 abilities that fall off and THREE absolute defenses!

[KvotheTheArcane1]

yup... naa the best solution is to move from 15sec/50 power to 10sec/100 power (on max lvl) restoring it's original state and adding the new aggro priority.

 

That's it.

 

If i have to play a tank that cant tank, a tank that needs to kite than i'd play another frame.

I agree, that sounds reasonable to me.

 

Here's a table for a frame in which the sum of HP and shield values is 1000 

From 30 to 5 maximum damage. (900 skin HP)

 

30. 30 hits (or 3  from10 sources)

25. 36 hits (or 3 from 12 sources)

20. 45 hits

15. 60 hits

10. 90 hits

5. 180 hits (or 18 hits from 10 sources)

Again, that seems low in terms of defense imo, level 40 enemies are spawning in big numbers (20+ easily, and that's on kiste, which, true, is a mobile defense) so that doesn't work really imo, because even if they only can deal 5 damage at a time, they're firing in such numbers and always moving to be able to shoot you (even if this is just because there isn't enough room on the wall for everyone to sit against and fire from that area) they'll still chew you up eventually.

 

And even if you can hide from them mostly, there is almost always some form of enemy that forces you to move from cover, be it rollers as they stun you, or seekers who force you to dodge roll to dislodge the latchers, or shockwave moas, to fusion moas, to just moas in general who just sprint at you.

 

IMO, the best idea is to return old IS, at an increase in cost and/or reduced duration.

[Zogg]

Even if i totally hate "flat numbers" i'd say that an effective solution could be not "absorb a flat number of dmg" but "block a flat number of attacks"

 

Something like:

 

The next 10-10-30-50 attacks against you deals no dmg and you are immune to CC/poison/Drains...

 

This can scale even at highest difficulty levels (because enemies increase their dmg but not their attack speed) and can also prevent that a single Rhino can face tank 191473845 monsters like before, it can do it, do it well, but only against a few, very important targets...

It could result very effective against hard hitting units like ancients/heavy grineers, un-effective against little fast units (like Grineers rifles, Crewman, Crawlers) therefore encouraging a different playstyle when facing them and not just spam iron skin brainlessy.

 

What do you think about this? I think a "number of hits taken" would work better than both "flat dmg reduction" / "percentage dmg reduction"

 

just to know more: are you taking in consideration the aggro mechanic or not?

a flat bullet number sounds doable. I don't know much about coding, values and stuff (like was discussed with the idea of AArgh a few pages back) but could it be doable to add to that bullet number some sort of multiplier per affected ennemie (if working with aggro) or just in an area around the Rhino (if working without) so being swarmed would (perhaps) scale better while still being less effectiv against normal fast shooting ennemies

 

edit: yay for 100th post

Edited May 23, 2013 by Zogg

[Phoenix86]

just to know more: are you taking in consideration the aggro mechanic or not?

a flat bullet number sounds doable. I don't know much about coding, values and stuff (like was discussed with the idea of AArgh a few pages back) but could it be doable to add to that bullet number some sort of multiplier per affected ennemie (if working with aggro) or just in an area around the Rhino (if working without) so being swarmed would (perhaps) scale better while still being less effectiv against normal fast shooting ennemies

 

edit: yay for 100th post

 

well maybe there's a way to consider each bullet a "0.1 hit" so that 10 bullets = 1 hit from grineers and 1 plasma hit from corpus = 0.2 hit (5 plasma hits to make 1 hit to iron skin), that could balance the disparity between infested and grineers and corpus.

 

But i guess this is way too hard to implement, especially because a fix of duration/cost is way more effective and easier to do atm

[7.T.]

so we can all agree that this was in fact a "nerf" of the rhino for apparently no legitamate reason other than being the whim of a DEV that thought he would change the entire play style of a frame.

I really, I mean REALLY want to know, who complained about Iron Skin ina PVE GAME!

 

I keep saying this, because I honestly believe it to be true, The nerf was more for the PVP dojo sparring than it was for the PVE. The whole design council voicing concerns on certian pwers, to me, is BS. Letting the personnal perferences of a few privilidged people get the priority for feedback while dismissing the large playerbase is ridiculous. Not knowing the actual numbers of founders with this privilidge, I cant say how much of a minority/majority they may, or may not be. In livestream 8 they mention how they, "won't take a nerf hammer to the powers that we've grown accustomed to in the real game" 

Hell they even mentioned how they "realized" that "every decimal they change affects thousands of players" but when the player base voces their concerns and their dislike to a change they are brushed off. It makes it hard for me to really WANT to invest further in this game when alread even BEFORE the PVP element is introduced, the devs are following in the same footsteps of so many other F2P games. Becoming a PAY to PLAY by changing most of the market to platinum only otherwise having to immediately farm making it difficult on new players to keep interest, or having a policy of nerfing everything that a few people complain about because of their own preferences. UNLESS something is causing an ACTUAL problem, in my opinion leave it. No one sends in IMs of "Hey this is great keep it the same!" while the vast majority of IMs are going to be complaints. So like I said before, unless their is a LEGITIMATE PROBLEM with something don't act on the opinions and criticisms of the few only to do so and find out the vast majority are against it.

    The Design Council does not work this way. We only respond to specific topics posted by the Devs. Mostly new things like Warframe concepts, tile sets, or naming a Warframe. Suggestions are reviewed by the Devs, a poll is created from their choices, and we vote on which one of their choices we want. We are not allowed to create threads, nor would these types of posts be allowed as they would be off topic.

 

EDIT: I found a quote someone was looking for earlier. The old Iron Skin is not an option but that does not mean the 75/100 cost version is out of the question. It just would be in the long-term fix category. D.E. plans to implement a short-term fix first as stated here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/48350-de-ima-give-u-a-little-sign/page-3#entry499307 She says specifically "a complete revert". The 75/100 cost version is not a complete revert. It would be with the "switching his powers altogether" part IF they choose that direction.

Edited May 23, 2013 by 7.T.

[Zogg]

well maybe there's a way to consider each bullet a "0.1 hit" so that 10 bullets = 1 hit from grineers and 1 plasma hit from corpus = 0.2 hit (5 plasma hits to make 1 hit to iron skin), that could balance the disparity between infested and grineers and corpus.

 

But i guess this is way too hard to implement, especially because a fix of duration/cost is way more effective and easier to do atm

 

I know it's way easier but I really don't think they want to return to the invulnerability based on a timer, regardless of cost or duration change. I based it - a few pages back- on REbecca's post in another thread. She says they will not return to it's original state, but Iget the feeling it's the invul overtime thing that's not wanted from the designers

 

Edit: the thread 7.T. has linked in his post above

Edited May 23, 2013 by Zogg

[Seanjuju]

Our designer agreed a mistake was made Friday, has reviewed feedback. After testing and implementation, the new proposed system is considered to be working well. All posts that find this proposal unsatisfactory are being reviewed and noted. I urge you to add to these posts once you have tested the changes as well.

 

The feedback on switching his powers altogether, rebalancing everything else, is a long-term fix that cannot be made this week.

 

Short term goal: Get a fixed version of Iron Skin. At this point a complete revert to the original power is not planned.

Long term goal: Review Rhino as a whole, this whole situation has revealed problems players have with Rhino beyond just Iron Skin.

Another relevant post:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/48608-de-i-am-disappoint/page-2

Edited May 23, 2013 by Seanjuju

[Phoenix86]

Well only few hours separate us from it... we can only wait and pray that the decision they took will be the best possible...

 

No point to keep discussing it here i guess, decision as been taken, we'll discover it soon

and to see another change we will have to wait this "long term rework project" (hope not so long)

[vonDirk]

I get your points, Rhino does have other skills that still work, Charge is basically the opposite of mags pull, you move towards the enemy instead of the enemy moving towards you (however charge can be used to move away from enemies while pull cant, atleast for yourself), both at the end are knocked down.  Rhino Stomp is also of some use in halting close enemies to let you. kill them.  So Rhino still has 2 other skills that are useful for high end play in a similar fassion to other characters, so the argument that Rhino has nothing to use at higher level play doesn't hold water. 

 

True you could, however the taunt aspect lets you draw the fire from your ally, so they wont go down in the first place and you dont need to res them (there is some onus on the other player to not get themselves downed).  Same effect in the end.  Rhino originally couldn't force the enemies to shoot him with the original so he was letting his team-mates be downed, so he had to res them, while you stand beside them under fire, so unlikely to come out of the res completly unscathed.

 

This may be moot option however as something dawned on me eairler.

Is the new Iron Skin meant to have the damage reduction improved by Focus?  If it does a level 4 focus will grant the ability 100% damage reduction (104% at rank 5 Focus).  It's been mentioned that it is bugged, but I dont recall seeing if it is indeed meant to be improved by focus.

Ok, let's compare: Pull have range 40 meters without Stretch, pull ONE target to you and don't put you in danger. Rhino Charge can (but not for sure) knockdown few targets, but range 13 m (without Continuity) - and you end up standing between enemies who are glad to shoot to your face from their weapons. Great.

Rhino Stomp is great, I've already mentioned that. But Excalibur can do the same thing for 75 energy: 25 for Slash Dash to get closer, 50 for Radial Blind - BAM! Nobody attacking you with the same 6 seconds or even more. And have 14 m radius WITHOUT Stretch. Rhino Stomp have 20m radius, right, but additional 6m for additional 50 energy? Don't think, it's a good exchange.

About taunt. Yes, it will help to keep your ally alive. So why I need to use Rhino, who will be dead in few seconds, if I can use Loki and put Decoy somewhere, where enemies can't get to? It still have aggro, it's cheap and lasts longer (21 seconds, you know?).

Or Molt. If i remember correctly, Molt have health and shields - and duration. But how long Molt is useful in high-levels? Isn't it almost instantly evaporates, if enemies get close to it? And Saryn could cast it again instantly. For 25 energy. Lasts for 16 seconds and have LARGE aggro.

To be honest, Rhino was barely useful even before nerf, but because of his cool look and his Iron Skin he was at least not useless, like now. Did anyone noticed, that noone said "Hey, i want to get my invincibility back, because I want to go to kill everyone"? Main thing about Rhino was his revival mission. No matter what, he was able to came and save his teammates even if it looks like suicide or something. And you can do this with Loki's invisibility too - if there are no toxics near, but while teammate can crawl from this green clouds - it's not a big problem. The big problem is why I need to play Loki to do such things - and be 3 times more effective for my team than Rhino - Trickster vs. Tank.

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one to realize this. Especially with the comparison against Frost. Even god mode wasn't remotely comparable to the omnipotence sphere against Corpus or Grineer. It is so incredibly powerful it single handedly guarantees Frost a place on every single high level defense team against Corpus or Grineer. If Frost had no other abilities and half his base stats he would still be picked purely on the strength of this one ability. There's a reason nobody seriously tries to run defense without Frost.

 

To add another two to the list:

 

To be perfectly blunt, Nyx's chaos is quantitatively more than four times as good as Rhino stomp. It hits a larger area, it lasts more than 4 times as long (26 seconds vs 6), it costs 25% less to use. Most importantly, it causes the enemies to kill themselves for you much like Trinity's link. This is invaluable later on when ammo inefficiency is measured in magazines per kill even for the Hek. Rhino stomp only stops them from shooting you, chaos does that better and does a ton of damage while it's at it. Even compared to iron skin it effectively makes you invincible, it makes all your friends invincible, it makes the cryopod invincible, and it can be maintained longer given Nyx's energy advantage. This is another ability that carries entire frames. Before the nerf I used to joke that Nyx had 3 useless abilities but the 4th made her the best frame in the game. Now she's merely extremely potent.

 

Bastille doesn't hit as large an area as rhino stomp but it's more than sufficient. More importantly it lasts twice as long, possibly more. It of course costs less and on a frame with again 50% more energy.

 

For a slow low energy ostensibly CC tank, Rhino's CC blows.

Well, actually, main superiority of Bastille even with smaller size - you can use it from range without putting yourself in danger, it lasts longer (1.5 times duration) and it affects enemies, who enter the affected area during effect is active.

About Nyx - she not only have Chaos, which is great against any fraction, she also have Mind Control - and it can be used in many ways, especially against Infested (because Frost is cover Greenir/Corpus protection needs). You need health - you use Mind Control on Ancient Healer, 100 health per wave. You have Disruptor near you or your teammate - Mind Control and he is heading to crush his own buddies. There are Toxic near cryopod or heading that way - Mind Control and you don't need to be afraid of his poison.

Absorb is another great option (well, on the sheet) - it deals more damage with higher level of mobs, because it reflects their own damage back to them. And Nys's teammates can use her as a cover - and increase damage output with their guns. The only low-level ability - Psychic Bolts, but it does triple damage to normal Infested, ignores armor and have auto-aim.

 

Oh I didnt take it as attacking me, more a misunderstanding on what my referal was too.

 

On topic:

Powers aside, Rhino has the same damage dealing potential as every other warframe.  Just because Rhino uses a Hek (as an example) doesnt mean the Hek does any less damage than any other warframe using that same Hek, likewise Loki using the Hek doesnt grant him any more damage than any other warframe.

Rhinos powers arent about dealing damage (this is good for Rhino, as all the damage frames get worse the more health and armour enemies have), like other frames that have less armour/shields (Frost seems like an oddity in that factor, as it has caster powers with a tank frame), damage is clearly not everything in the equasion either.

 

I do realise that DE changed the invunlerability for a reason, sure I'd like to know that reason (because he clearly isnt getting it back with most hard invunlerabilities being taken out), but I'd also like them to consider soft invunlerability options too.

Yes, you have a point - Rhino's abilities are quite good - if they worked properly and can be used often. But - he have low energy pool, he have low speed - so low mobility and can't get to the right spot fast (because Rhino Charge is good, when you want to run forward through the corridor or something with flat surface - or you will stuck into something and waste your energy). And his second good ability are ultimate with 100 energy cost. Frost too have 2 abilities, that don't deal damage (almost): Snow Globe and Freeze. Snow Globe protects your teammates, giving them immunity to the ranged attacks, Freeze - stops enemy for 10 seconds, can be spammed to freeze a lot of enemies, if Frost have enough energy. But even without it - Snow Globe is best defensive ability. Loki too do no damage with his abilities (don't count Radial Disarm), but his abilities are more powerful when you use them wisely. Invisibility allows him go to the hard-to-get point - and cast Decoy, and Decoy will show you, if there enemies near  (by shooting) and will attract enemies too, allowing other teammates to deal with them with their guns and abilities. He not only taunt enemies from his team, but gathers them in the most efficient place.

 

True they can, but those abilities do less and less percentage of an enemies health with every level an enemy gains.  Both of them also ignore armour (which not all frames can claim). Ash can take less damage than Rhino too while Saryn can be specifically built to take just as much.  If we only look at damage mitigation Rhino is clearly better than almost any other frame.

 

Looking only at damage a warframe can deal/take, isn't seeing the whole picture either, otherwise we would have to have 12 frames all identical... which would be clearly boring.

 

Sure as players we can overlook some of these aspects and not be bothered by it, however DE cant, in the name of a balanced game.

Well, Ash stuns enemies with his Smoke Bomb in 10 m radius, get Invisibility and already have great speed. His Shuriken ignores armor and can do headshots, his teleport allow him to get close with the enemy and then get out of here, have 45m range with Continuity and can do 200% of charged melee (don't forget, that almost all charged melee ignores armor, so something, like Gram with proper mods, will give him like 1k raw damage to multiple targets!).

The best damage mitigation - don't allow be harmed in any way. So Rhino isn't best in Mitigation damage - Frost is. Frost have the same health and shields (well, maybe a little less, because Thrak gives Rhino +25 health), have the same armor (except Frost use Aurora, with +33% of armor! And that's better than 25 HP), have team-support abilities and can deal with weak enemies fast, allow other team to focus their power on strong ones.

 

Did you consider that the sustainable Invunlerability is the issue?

 

800 damage is 800 damage reguardless of the source that is taking it, whether it be Loki, Rhino, Frost, Excalibur or any other warframe (they all have shields/health taking that 800 damage).  If that 800 damage is astounding to take, then it doesnt matter what warframe is taking it, or what power is taking it, its the fact that 800 damage is astounding to take is the issue.   Its kind of like picking up a spiked ball with an unprotected hand and it stabing you, the spikes arent the issue the issue is you picking it up with your unprotected hand, because you want to pick up the ball.

Saying 800 damage is only an issue for Ironskin isnt curing the condition, its curing the effect.  It'sexactly like saying 800 shields are pointless (which no one is doing), since thats how the Ironskin will behave (on the limited knowledge we have). 

 

Ever consider that Loki's decoy and Saryns Moult are both similar to those damage numbers in what they can take, which is why the sugestion was for that?  The actual damage either can take isnt mentioned anywhere I know of.

 

I've never been saying the other powers dont need enhancing, thats kind of like saying the warframes dont need to be balanced, there are obviously areas that need fixing.  Honestly sticking your fingers in your ears and drowning out any ideas other than "bring back the old ironskin" (which DE has effectivly said 'No' to already), isnt having any effect other than to have people ignore your otherwise good and accurate comments.

 

The taunt actually gives you more tactial use of Rhino than the original Ironskin does, if you think about its use rather than "DUH, I'll stand out where everyone can shoot me".

 

I have played other games where the taunt and absorption shield work extreemly well with intellegent play to tank, so it clearly works.

Well, 800 damage will be enough, if it will allow you to live more longer, than few seconds. I saw, how overcharged Frost went out his Snow Globe - and almost already came back with half of his health left! Frost, who have the same amount of shields and health, can't survive without Snow Globe against many enemies.

800 damage cap is nothing - every sentinel will give you 100% shield restore if you will be alive for 1 seconds. And even Volt can have 800+ shields - but Volt have Electric Shield (can hide himself from enemies and restore his shields) and Speed, allowing him to run away from danger.

 

Edit: @Loswaith again

Once you kill the target while its inflicted with Energy Vamp, you can not cast it again until the timer runs out, meaning if you cast E.Vamp on a target with a sliver of health left, and kill it, you get a power in use notice for the next 10 seconds.

You can cast Energy Vampire on weak target and kill it with one blow of your Gram - and get back your 100 energy. So you don't need to worry, if this target alive or not, because you already have enough energy to use Link and survive this 10 seconds, till you can cast Energy vampire once more.

so we can all agree that this was in fact a "nerf" of the rhino for apparently no legitamate reason other than being the whim of a DEV that thought he would change the entire play style of a frame.

I really, I mean REALLY want to know, who complained about Iron Skin ina PVE GAME!

 

I keep saying this, because I honestly believe it to be true, The nerf was more for the PVP dojo sparring than it was for the PVE. The whole design council voicing concerns on certian pwers, to me, is BS. Letting the personnal perferences of a few privilidged people get the priority for feedback while dismissing the large playerbase is ridiculous. Not knowing the actual numbers of founders with this privilidge, I cant say how much of a minority/majority they may, or may not be. In livestream 8 they mention how they, "won't take a nerf hammer to the powers that we've grown accustomed to in the real game" 

Hell they even mentioned how they "realized" that "every decimal they change affects thousands of players" but when the player base voces their concerns and their dislike to a change they are brushed off. It makes it hard for me to really WANT to invest further in this game when alread even BEFORE the PVP element is introduced, the devs are following in the same footsteps of so many other F2P games. Becoming a PAY to PLAY by changing most of the market to platinum only otherwise having to immediately farm making it difficult on new players to keep interest, or having a policy of nerfing everything that a few people complain about because of their own preferences. UNLESS something is causing an ACTUAL problem, in my opinion leave it. No one sends in IMs of "Hey this is great keep it the same!" while the vast majority of IMs are going to be complaints. So like I said before, unless their is a LEGITIMATE PROBLEM with something don't act on the opinions and criticisms of the few only to do so and find out the vast majority are against it.

 

Have to disagree with you. It will be Pat to Play, if we will need some consumables, available only with platinum, like "Energy pack - restore 50 energy" or something like that.

 

>Range

Again.

>Range

Trinity's range on Link is so ridiculously far, there's literally no merit in even mentioning it. In fact, it hinders your argument. I've played both Rhino and Trinity extensively. Trinity EASILY trumps Rhino in all regards even without a Reactor late game.

 

And again, who said its spammable? If it acts like any other buff in the game, it has to run its timer before you can cast it again, much like EVamp and Overheat.

Yep, and you can be interrupted, while you casting it...

 

@s3kSU...

Actually the Rhino being OP posts were from the general forums.  You can likely find some in the general/warframe forums pages back or searches about "god mode".

 

@goozilla

  I was figuring it working more like Moult and Decoy, than other abilities with only a timed effect.

 

Also unfortunatly in allot of games healers will be better than tanks because of their inherant surviveability.

Well, we all read a lot not about, how OP other frame are. But it's not reason to nerf them too.And i don't mind, if Trinity could kill enemies better than me. It always was and it's fine. I need to stop them and survive, till my mates come and kill them. Or I need to be able to deal with them in hard and long fight. As it was before.

Edited May 23, 2013 by vonDirk

[vonDirk]

 

yup... naa the best solution is to move from 15sec/50 power to 10sec/100 power (on max lvl) restoring it's original state and adding the new aggro priority.

 

That's it.

 

If i have to play a tank that cant tank, a tank that needs to kite than i'd play another frame.

100 energy power will be too harsh, but even this is ok. So, i'm still sure, he need some cheap taunt power and better CC abilities to fulfill his role.

 

-snip-

Well, from this one I have only one thing, i mentioned before - there are not only Rhino, who lacks power on high levels, there are some other warframes too. And even Nyx need some minor changes (like taunt ability for her Absorb) or staggering for her Bolts. And it didn't count Ember, who is based all around damage and chance to ignite

[BigC_castane]

I just had an idea that I didn't know where to post so I'll put it here... sorry if it shouldn't be here... I was reading the complaints about the alert system and would like to give an idea. the main problem was that alerts are not available for all those who play the game because of the hours they spend on the pc (some can afford to watch the twitter feed all day but others can only watch it for an hour or two a day for example). I thought about giving up the  global alert system (could be used for events instead like potato challenge after livestream or special occasions) and implementing a random mission button... I, as a player have unlocked all the planets and honestly I hate farming the same planet and don't know what area to play anymore... I would apreciate a random mission button which should have a filter to be able to set for example any mission from planet x (for materials farming) or a range of level... this way keeping the game after total unlock still fun... about the rewards an idea would be to give random rewards for those using the random mission button but i recommend something that would go around the RNG like why not implement another currency... you'd get this currency for completing random missions (quantity dependinng on difficulty of mission) and being able to spend this currency on rewards.... sorry for the long post it just sounds great in my head and i'm a bit scared because i don't know if you get the idea right from what i've written... please a DEV just tell me that you've read it and say like "I saw it and i hate it" or "I like it" or ask for more description if its not clear enough.... 

Keep up the good work and never stop smashing your enemies Tenno!

[corpseshock]

Thank you for listening, Rebecca. And for prompt feedback.

Edited May 23, 2013 by corpseshock

[s3kShUn08]

Our designer agreed a mistake was made Friday, has reviewed feedback. After testing and implementation, the new proposed system is considered to be working well. All posts that find this proposal unsatisfactory are being reviewed and noted. I urge you to add to these posts once you have tested the changes as well.

 

The feedback on switching his powers altogether, rebalancing everything else, is a long-term fix that cannot be made this week.

 

Short term goal: Get a fixed version of Iron Skin. At this point a complete revert to the original power is not planned.

Long term goal: Review Rhino as a whole, this whole situation has revealed problems players have with Rhino beyond just Iron Skin.

Why is it that reverting it is not a viable option? Why is that those that voiced their concerns about it being OP in the first place have their arguments against it taken into account when there is a vast majority of reasons why the orginal Iron Skin was fine as is?

or rather than this being a player driven decision in the first place was this just the idea of Scott and the design team having their own internal discussions?

either way DE has so far has had 3 large fallouts with playerbase, one right after the other.

 

[1] Glaive release (lessons supposedly learned: announce what "something" is and how it's going to be released before hand,)

[2] Frost Prime (lessons supposedly learned: announce what "something" is and how it's going to be released before hand,)

[3] Rhino NERF (lessons supposedly learned: announce what "something" is and how it's going to work before hand,)

 

 

Anyone else see a pattern here?

Edited May 23, 2013 by s3kShUn08

[Zyfe3rX]

Give Rhino his old immunity and give him MAX aggro !

Rhino is supposed to be tank ~.~ , i havent seen a single thread complaining Rhino is OP , except some kids who dont have it !

 

 

Or make it 80% but no stagger , no stun and no poison effects !

Edited May 23, 2013 by Zyfe3rX

[Tulzscha]

Or make it 80% but no stagger , no stun and no poison effects !

 

I'd be happy with this, TBH. Still scales for high level enemies. It doesn't make sense for poison to be able to seep through that magical tinfoil. :D

[Appsin]

The following changes are being made:

1) He will now again have full invulnerability, but up to a damage (d) cap of: 200 d, 400 d, 600 d, and 800 d based on mod rank.  Thoughts?

2) He now aggro's enemies to draw fire by using Iron Skin, as enemies now see him as a big threat!

Rhino used to be my main Warframe but since he's recently been stabbed in the face with a soldering iron I've stopped using him fully.

So my thoughts are that he should have full invul from everything (Disrupt, toxic, etc....) like he did before, and I also think he should still have a timelimit ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE ADDING AGGRO.

Aggro is a fine idea but not with a damage cap, if you wanted to raise the energy cost or something I would find that acceptable but 800d is pitiful.

Especially seeing as how I've heard talks of increasing difficultys. >.>

All in all this nerf seemed ENTIRELY unessesary, with the only logical reason I can think of being that you nerfed Iron Skin because of the Dojo Sparing things to come in Update 8.

P.S. Also I've seen some people suggest a cooldown between uses, this would also be a fine addition.

tl;dr Make Iron Skin full invul from everything and have it last 15 seconds, but possibly make it cost more energy and have maybe a 5 second cooldown between uses.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Appsin

[Zyfe3rX]

I was just wondering !

 

 

Rhino was never OP , so the so called " Reverting to original state is not viable " is completely BS.

There are several other warframes with Almost equal to  Iron Skin. Iron skin is a get around large group of enemies skill and now its total waste.

 

While , Loki :- Invisibility , nobody attacks you , you get 100% critic chance. Yet you are super fast.

Ash :- Smoke , Nobody attack you , you get 100% critic chance, yet you are fast.

 

Now,

 

Rhino :- Supposed to be tank , takes 800 damage, which is like 5 sec in High level missions. Has MAX aggro,No bonus damage capabilities  and SUPER SLOW...

 

I mean where the hell did DE learned the meaning of "Balance" ?????

 

 

Now the Tank is crap and slow. While the paper frames(fast frames) act as tanks and heavy hitters !