Psa:ophelia And Hydriod Pilfer Swarm Nerf Hotfix 17.0.4. Warframe's Issue:farming And The Unhealthy Progression Of This Game.

[SickoSike]

Update: The Mag Nerf

DE decides to blame things on a frame, however I won't disagree to an extent that so many players were highly dependent on Greedy Pull Mag that many players don't even try to see how Mag is, seeing all the rage posts on greedy pull mag has kind of made me be neutral on the some nerfs because the ones who complained over Mag generally try to say she is a useless warframe, that is not the case and I am starting to notice how bad of a crutch people in general depended on her over 1 ability, over 1 augment mod, and as it turns out it looked to be ridiculous. So the nerf on greedy mag was acceptable, but it does not solve any core issues mentioned here in this thread.

I am still against nerfing warframes because we are being instructed now and forced in some hand to play the game without any real fixes and putting a band-aid on instead on some real issues. There will always be modes where people will find and resort to any cheese tactics if possible.

Edited July 12, 2015 by MikeTheAshmigo

[AlphaHorseman]

Update: The Mag Nerf

DE decides to blame things on a frame, however I won't disagree to an extent that so many players were highly dependent on Greedy Pull Mag that many players don't even try to see how Mag is, seeing all the rage posts on greedy pull mag has kind of made me be neutral on the some nerfs because the ones who complained over Mag generally try to say she is a useless warframe, that is not the case and I am starting to notice how bad of a crutch people in general depended on her over 1 ability, over 1 augment mod, and as it turns out it looked to be ridiculous. So the nerf on greedy mag was acceptable, but it does not solve any core issues mentioned here in this thread.

I am still against nerfing warframes because we are being instructed now and forced in some hand to play the game without any real fixes and putting a band-aid on instead on some real issues. There will always be modes where people will find and resort to any cheese tactics if possible.

Very true, I'm just glad the changes don't affect her overall kit scale ability.

 

The nerf to Greedy Pull is, yet again, treating a symptom of the problem, rather than the problem itself.

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

I think the new start chart system will be the most telling as to how hyper-farming plays out. If the map is reduced from 250-350 nodes down to 12-20 nodes, that rotate random missions, then this will at least shake up the reliable maps depended on for these super grinds.

Mission building is another later that may help or hinder the situation. If it allows you to garuntee a Draco tileset, then all that has been done is another grind wall, in front of the grind wall.

That may deter some, but I don't know if it will fix the problem. I am more hopeful for the lore and immersion oprprtunities that the new start chart may present.

[blasron]

after reading the entire thing, i can't agree more with you.

 

Too much rng and grind. The few way to escape it is to cheese our way out

[Chiwwy1]

I think the new start chart system will be the most telling as to how hyper-farming plays out. If the map is reduced from 250-350 nodes down to 12-20 nodes, that rotate random missions, then this will at least shake up the reliable maps depended on for these super grinds.

Mission building is another later that may help or hinder the situation. If it allows you to garuntee a Draco tileset, then all that has been done is another grind wall, in front of the grind wall.

That may deter some, but I don't know if it will fix the problem. I am more hopeful for the lore and immersion oprprtunities that the new start chart may present.

 

My thoughts are (and I really hope I am wrong and they fix drops and xp before or as the star chart changes) is that farming will increase more. Since there is a limitation on what missions pop up and there is less choice many players will just wait for a certain one and continue to stay in the void. If mission types are buildable that doesn't help at all and only makes things worse (like you said grinding just to grind and we already have enough of that). So no the problem won't be fixed because the RNG on gaining materials and mods will not have changed (it is static from lvl 1 to infinity meaning you will get around the exact same amounts if you kill 100 lvl 1s or 100 lvl 100s) and experience and credits from said enemies will still barely be any good along with forcing mission types on the player. The only thing it seems like it may deter is actually playing the game. That is all just a theory though but track record for DE seems to kinda back that.

[SickoSike]

I think the new start chart system will be the most telling as to how hyper-farming plays out. If the map is reduced from 250-350 nodes down to 12-20 nodes, that rotate random missions, then this will at least shake up the reliable maps depended on for these super grinds.

Mission building is another later that may help or hinder the situation. If it allows you to garuntee a Draco tileset, then all that has been done is another grind wall, in front of the grind wall.

That may deter some, but I don't know if it will fix the problem. I am more hopeful for the lore and immersion oprprtunities that the new start chart may present.

If they're still going with that idea, I am going to call Steve insane.

[Brokenrune]

IMO in order for the game to have a healthy progresion I think the whole system for the game has to be overhauld. i.e reduce the influence of rng. since the core of the issue is that people need to cheese the system in order to get rewards from the system.

they need to put more meaning behind the actions of the players. For example the mastery system,it basically how much affinty the players accumulateded on different weappons. I honestly don't know how to describe it :/

However i doubt anyone is going to read this lol

edit: they are not going with the twenty node thing btw

Edited July 19, 2015 by Brokenrune

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

If they're still going with that idea, I am going to call Steve insane.

Pretty sure, something similar to what I described is the shape of the new Star Chart. I don't have a complete sense of it, but it could largely address hyper farming, or at least mitigate it some. As for RNG, it might lower some, or increase it, that depends on how they roll it out. If missions randomly cycle through the 12-20 nodes, with random rewards (perhaps upping the, basic, base level auto reward, beyond credits, maybe) then everything is kind of like alerts. Mission crafting could allow for resource targeting, but do crafted missions required farmed components? Void items added to general missions, but 12-20 nodes, new dilution? We will have to wait to get a better sense.

IMO in order for the game to have a healthy progresion I think the whole system for the game has to be overhauld. i.e reduce the influence of rng. since the core of the issue is that people need to cheese the system in order to get rewards from the system.

However i doubt anyone is going to read this lol

edit: they are not going with the twenty node thing btw

I think, once they can start cranking out quest missions, much of the basic concern over farming basic mods, resources and gear, can be handled by rewards. If the old events return in some fashion, this could also help.

Otherwise, the game is grind and RNG. This is ok, as long as its fun and keeps the games longevity going, so they can keep the stream of content flowing.

Edited July 19, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX

[Heptimus]

I think, as Crimson said, that players are too focused on loot and rewards. Sure, getting new stuff is exciting and makes you want to continue to play the game, and it is instrumental in our ability to create diverse builds and experiment. As Felis and Mike are discussing, increasing rewards for just "playing the game" is exactly what we need. We need a short term solution, followed up by a long term solution. There will always be a loot cave, minmaxers, rushers, campers etc., but if most players can just play the game exactly like they want, and not face a horrble, horrible, RNGrindwall then i think over half the battle is already won.

If the players really enjoy their stay, they would probably consider spending plat on color palettes, attachments, and other visual stuff. League of Legends (as far as i know) make their profit by creating skins. Simple, statless skins. They improve nothing, but lets you customize your character. This is also a way of preventing "powercreep", as i believe Prime, Vandal, Wraith and all the other syndicate versions are somewhat unnecessary. I mean, sure add them as skins, but keeping a more powerfull weapon as a weekend reward feels unfair. Remember that skins can also only be bought trough the market for plat, which encourages people to buy plat. If you absolutely need stronger versions of a weapon, why not just buff it a little bit? And if you want weapons to be "tiered", to balance weapons from early- to late-game, as a sense of progression, use the mastery system more (although it is far from perfect). Still, i'd prefer there only to be one version of a weapon. Perhaps DEvs are too lazy to design new weapons, so they just reskin old ones and increases a few of its stats.

Sorry for derailing a bit, but i feel the issue of powercreep(/ new items) are directly tied to grinding (camping/rushing). Again, if the core element of the game would be fun, interesting and challenging gameplay (that would still reward you sufficiently to prevent grinding / loot caves) the issue would be a lot smaller (or hopefully non-existant).

[R3DBelmont456]

I just think they need to give us more things to do that don't really affect gameplay but are still rewarding... I personally really like the way sabotage is in void with the optional caches, which increases the chance of getting rare drops if you take the time to explore... likewise with spy 2.0 which increases the chance of getting better rewards if you Retrieve all 3 pieces of data, and adds a whopping amount of affinity if you complete each room undetected, these are honestly great and are at least fun to play... but with DE leaving us no real choice but to look for these alternative methods to grind, they should honestly not be surprised people keep finding ways to "best the system"

 

Until DE stops targeting the symptoms of the issue, starts giving us a reason to play all these modes, and starts rewarding appropriately instead of making it feel like a waste of time unless you farm in the right place with the right frames... it's just never gonna end.

Edited July 20, 2015 by R3DBelmont456

[SickoSike]

Until DE stops targeting the symptoms of the issue, starts giving us a reason to play all these modes, and starts rewarding appropriately instead of making it feel like a waste of time unless you farm in the right place with the right frames... it's just never gonna end.

Agree,

Sadly I'm slowly starting to realize this is all starting to turn into a real old dance with Digital Extremes. I really wish and still anticipate, but even with this thread has specifically stated some of the issues it's to no avail that it would ever sway a company that's surviving well and more effective by going against these requests and instead putting up more of these type of tactics like Grind walls and time delays, the only way to ever stop this system is by boycott or stop supporting this type of behavior and one of the main ways is by not playing and or paying, and that's very hard to do, let alone ask a lot of players to round up towards DE and state otherwise.

Edited July 21, 2015 by MikeTheAshmigo

[R3DBelmont456]

the only way to ever boycott or stop supporting this type of behavior is by not playing and or paying, and that's very hard to do, let alone ask a lot of players to round up towards DE and state otherwise.

 

Actually, you'd be surprised how much power even the average player can have if they banded together, and it's actually not that hard, one really good mess up is all it really takes. I mean even a well respected and trust worthy company like valve for example can stir up an extremely angry nest of gamers by throwing the right rock. Just look at what happened when Valve and Bethesda attempted to monetize Skyrim mods... although there was other factors that felled into play, the controversy sprouted such a riot, that the whole internet just went up into arms, and the monetization of mods went up in flames almost as quickly as it came (4 days in fact...).

 

 

I suspect that the possible reason that DE has been post-poning update 17 is because they fear that the drastic changes that are about to come may just be that rock that finally brings the wrath of the swarming players down on them hard enough to cause concerns...

[AlphaHorseman]

IMO in order for the game to have a healthy progresion I think the whole system for the game has to be overhauld. i.e reduce the influence of rng. since the core of the issue is that people need to cheese the system in order to get rewards from the system.

they need to put more meaning behind the actions of the players. For example the mastery system,it basically how much affinty the players accumulateded on different weappons. I honestly don't know how to describe it :/

However i doubt anyone is going to read this lol

edit: they are not going with the twenty node thing btw

You, I like you, +1!

[tomrair]

What this game really needs is smarter game modes.

 

Let's take a look at what the gamemodes actually are about: EXTERMINATE - kill all enemies, DEFENCE/MOB.DEFENCE - kill all enemies until the timer runs down, SURVIVAL - don't get killed and kill all the enemies so you get the LS drops, INTERCEPT - kill all enemies so they don't capture the nodes. These are the most played mission types, and in all of them the goal is to simply mow down the masses.

 

RESCUE, SABOTAGE, DECEPTION and SPY are already smarter and thus better, but don't offer as much as a reward, since only Sabotage is available in the void.

 

With the introduction of Spy 2.0 and especially the trials DE has already taken steps into the right direction, but we need more of it. What I would really like to see is some kind of Warframe Battlefield, with open maps that give you multiple ways of approaching the objectives so you have to make tactical decisions and that require real teamplay, not just a bunch of 4 guys rushing down narrow corridors in a splatterfest.

[AlphaHorseman]

What this game really needs is smarter game modes.

 

Let's take a look at what the gamemodes actually are about: EXTERMINATE - kill all enemies, DEFENCE/MOB.DEFENCE - kill all enemies until the timer runs down, SURVIVAL - don't get killed and kill all the enemies so you get the LS drops, INTERCEPT - kill all enemies so they don't capture the nodes. These are the most played mission types, and in all of them the goal is to simply mow down the masses.

 

RESCUE, SABOTAGE, DECEPTION and SPY are already smarter and thus better, but don't offer as much as a reward, since only Sabotage is available in the void.

 

With the introduction of Spy 2.0 and especially the trials DE has already taken steps into the right direction, but we need more of it. What I would really like to see is some kind of Warframe Battlefield, with open maps that give you multiple ways of approaching the objectives so you have to make tactical decisions and that require real teamplay, not just a bunch of 4 guys rushing down narrow corridors in a splatterfest.

This, so much so this.

 

Not only that, but more dynamic mission types. It's somewhat mediocre to have a singular objective with no worthwhile secondary objectives nor ways in which a mission can grow and be more organic.

[SickoSike]

What this game really needs is smarter game modes.

 

Let's take a look at what the gamemodes actually are about: EXTERMINATE - kill all enemies, DEFENCE/MOB.DEFENCE - kill all enemies until the timer runs down, SURVIVAL - don't get killed and kill all the enemies so you get the LS drops, INTERCEPT - kill all enemies so they don't capture the nodes. These are the most played mission types, and in all of them the goal is to simply mow down the masses.

 

RESCUE, SABOTAGE, DECEPTION and SPY are already smarter and thus better, but don't offer as much as a reward, since only Sabotage is available in the void.

 

With the introduction of Spy 2.0 and especially the trials DE has already taken steps into the right direction, but we need more of it. What I would really like to see is some kind of Warframe Battlefield, with open maps that give you multiple ways of approaching the objectives so you have to make tactical decisions and that require real teamplay, not just a bunch of 4 guys rushing down narrow corridors in a splatterfest.

Full support of this, I love your suggestion and hope Digital Extremes can implement this along with the awesome U17 Hype we got going soon!

[7grims]

Very well written.

 

I still have high hopes for this game and love it, but after 2 years I have seen problems like this and others never getting solved, and actually we see new updates with new features that just aggravate the former problems.

Some of the biggest sins that all the community was talking back in 2013 and 2014 are still in the game, DE usually swoops in with some semi-effective solutions, and some times with horrible band-aids.

 

It's even pointless to talk about suggestions/solutions in these forums, since the majority only attacks whoever tries to present something.

The only good we can still do in the forums, is pointing out the problems, just like you do it here, making both the community and the devs aware of all the rotten apples.

[AlphaHorseman]

Very well written.

 

I still have high hopes for this game and love it, but after 2 years I have seen problems like this and others never getting solved, and actually we see new updates with new features that just aggravate the former problems.

Some of the biggest sins that all the community was talking back in 2013 and 2014 are still in the game, DE usually swoops in with some semi-effective solutions, and some times with horrible band-aids.

 

It's even pointless to talk about suggestions/solutions in these forums, since the majority only attacks whoever tries to present something.

The only good we can still do in the forums, is pointing out the problems, just like you do it here, making both the community and the devs aware of all the rotten apples.

Guess all we can do is continue to point out the problems and hope DE listens and gets rid of the problems to improve the game and grow (both in number and good relations) the community.

[WereFowl]

I wish I could upvote the OP more.

 

I'm sick of seeing 100's of people on 3-4 missions on the starchart and nowehere else, and that's not because there are too many misisons, it's because those 3-4 missions happen to be the only really viable places to consistently get required resources.

Here's an idea: Implement a tiered difficulty selector, with higher level difficulty giving better loot drops and rewards. Also maybe on the highest give a guaranteed rare resource or a choice of reward in the case missions which do give out rewards.

Also please sort out void missions and their down right obnoxious drop tables that require some people to do 60min+ runs of T3 surivival something like 20 times in order to just get a volt chassis, then the same again for the nova chassis and even longer for the Ash systems.

I wouldn't mind playing a mission 10 times at 20 minutes for 1 part if the tenth time I was guaranteed to get the part. I don't think anyone would, but I have heard of people playing a mission something like 50 times and not getting the rare part that should, in theory, drop there.

DE have said they'd like to remove the reliance on RNG, so why don't they do it!?

I'm pretty sure that alone would generate a hell of allot of goodwill from the community (I'm not saying make the parts easy to get. Just that people shouldn't have to play the same mission so long, in the vague hope of getting a part, that they get burnout and rage quit form the game)

Hell a token system would even be better, for both sides, even if the rarer stuff requires a ridiculous amount of tekens it's still better as people can see how far they have to go and will know exactly how much further they have to play for that part. Best of all, for DE, they could sell token packs too!

 

For example:

T4 survival:

(first 20 mins) A: 5 tokens, B 10 Tokens, C 15 Tokens

(next 20 Mins) A: 10 tokens, B 15 tokens, C 20 Tokens

(next 20 Mins) A: 15 tokens, B 20 tokens, C 25 Tokens

 

4 exterminate: 60 tokens

 

(If the difficulty slider I suggested was implemeented to that could alter the token amounts)

 

so a 20 min run would get you 35 tokens, a 40 min run would get you 80 tokens and a 60 min run would net you 165 tokens

 

and a volt Prime chassis could cost 600 Tokens - and I can't think of anyone who would object. Some players might have to do a few more missions for their parts, put people wouldn;t be getting frustrated repeatedly having to do the same misisons as they could switch it up.

The current reward and loot system forces players to play the game in a way which is not only boring, but leaves players really prone to burn out.

As for the year of quality: I think the bursar alert did serious damage to that claim (seriosuly we don't mind delayed content if the reason is that you're getting rid of bugs)

Edited July 29, 2015 by WereFowl

[Brokenrune]

Hey you know what would be really really cool?

They could mix existing mission types together, i.e after you eliminate the whole crew of a ship, you would have to sabotage the database to erase its presence, or maybe after you triggered too many alarms in the spy missions, you have to eliminate the crew.

 

Then randomize the phases, they only have a certain % of happening. Redesign the enemy mechanics, make the smarter not harder. Lower the influence of RNG in the game, while at the same time improving game play. Throw in WereFowl's suggestion we could potentially make this game EPIC! maybe :/

 

What my own idea is that they have to make progression meaningful may it be quests, mastery rank or mods and weapons. Right now it is kinda of just a grindfest and it kinda sucks. Perhaps if they rework the star charts, we could get more dynamic missions like rescuing civilian colonists, or preventing a capital (infested) ship crashing into colonies and stuff.

 

For mastery rank though, I think the focus system is desperately needed right now, like mastery level would give one mastery point and you could take that point and put it into the skill tree, or something similar. 

 

And get rid of the artificial difficulty. Sorry for the bad English, I can't write well. 

Edited July 29, 2015 by Brokenrune

[SickoSike]

IMO in order for the game to have a healthy progresion I think the whole system for the game has to be overhauld. i.e reduce the influence of rng. since the core of the issue is that people need to cheese the system in order to get rewards from the system.

they need to put more meaning behind the actions of the players. For example the mastery system,it basically how much affinty the players accumulateded on different weappons. I honestly don't know how to describe it :/

However i doubt anyone is going to read this lol

edit: they are not going with the twenty node thing btw

I read what everyone has to say, no worries your voice is heard by one at least!

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

I wish I could upvote the OP more.

 

I'm sick of seeing 100's of people on 3-4 missions on the starchart and nowehere else, and that's not because there are too many misisons, it's because those 3-4 missions happen to be the only really viable places to consistently get required resources.

Here's an idea: Implement a tiered difficulty selector, with higher level difficulty giving better loot drops and rewards. Also maybe on the highest give a guaranteed rare resource or a choice of reward in the case missions which do give out rewards.

Also please sort out void missions and their down right obnoxious drop tables that require some people to do 60min+ runs of T3 surivival something like 20 times in order to just get a volt chassis, then the same again for the nova chassis and even longer for the Ash systems.

I wouldn't mind playing a mission 10 times at 20 minutes for 1 part if the tenth time I was guaranteed to get the part. I don't think anyone would, but I have heard of people playing a mission something like 50 times and not getting the rare part that should, in theory, drop there.

DE have said they'd like to remove the reliance on RNG, so why don't they do it!?

I'm pretty sure that alone would generate a hell of allot of goodwill from the community (I'm not saying make the parts easy to get. Just that people shouldn't have to play the same mission so long, in the vague hope of getting a part, that they get burnout and rage quit form the game)

Hell a token system would even be better, for both sides, even if the rarer stuff requires a ridiculous amount of tekens it's still better as people can see how far they have to go and will know exactly how much further they have to play for that part. Best of all, for DE, they could sell token packs too!

 

For example:

T4 survival:

(first 20 mins) A: 5 tokens, B 10 Tokens, C 15 Tokens

(next 20 Mins) A: 10 tokens, B 15 tokens, C 20 Tokens

(next 20 Mins) A: 15 tokens, B 20 tokens, C 25 Tokens

 

4 exterminate: 60 tokens

 

(If the difficulty slider I suggested was implemeented to that could alter the token amounts)

 

so a 20 min run would get you 35 tokens, a 40 min run would get you 80 tokens and a 60 min run would net you 165 tokens

 

and a volt Prime chassis could cost 600 Tokens - and I can't think of anyone who would object. Some players might have to do a few more missions for their parts, put people wouldn;t be getting frustrated repeatedly having to do the same misisons as they could switch it up.

The current reward and loot system forces players to play the game in a way which is not only boring, but leaves players really prone to burn out.

As for the year of quality: I think the bursar alert did serious damage to that claim (seriosuly we don't mind delayed content if the reason is that you're getting rid of bugs)

Hey you know what would be really really cool?

They could mix existing mission types together, i.e after you eliminate the whole crew of a ship, you would have to sabotage the database to erase its presence, or maybe after you triggered too many alarms in the spy missions, you have to eliminate the crew.

 

Then randomize the phases, they only have a certain % of happening. Redesign the enemy mechanics, make the smarter not harder. Lower the influence of RNG in the game, while at the same time improving game play. Throw in WereFowl's suggestion we could potentially make this game EPIC! maybe :/

 

What my own idea is that they have to make progression meaningful may it be quests, mastery rank or mods and weapons. Right now it is kinda of just a grindfest and it kinda sucks. Perhaps if they rework the star charts, we could get more dynamic missions like rescuing civilian colonists, or preventing a capital (infested) ship crashing into colonies and stuff.

 

For mastery rank though, I think the focus system is desperately needed right now, like mastery level would give one mastery point and you could take that point and put it into the skill tree, or something similar. 

 

And get rid of the artificial difficulty. Sorry for the bad English, I can't write well. 

 

[DE]Steve mentioned a more lore driven experience with the new star chart, and I think, possibly mission linking, kinda of like in quests. This sort reminds be of back when Diablo 3 released hero mode, that dynamically generated mini quests with multiple missions from various npc's. I don't play Diablo, so I don't know how well that was implemented, but the idea sounds great. It gives more context and immersion to the experience. 

[AlphaHorseman]

[DE]Steve mentioned a more lore driven experience with the new star chart, and I think, possibly mission linking, kinda of like in quests. This sort reminds be of back when Diablo 3 released hero mode, that dynamically generated mini quests with multiple missions from various npc's. I don't play Diablo, so I don't know how well that was implemented, but the idea sounds great. It gives more context and immersion to the experience. 

Mission linking? Oh this sounds really interesting! Could you provide a link?

[SickoSike]

Who is ready for U17!

I know I am can't wait.

Bit off topic I know, but I really hope U17 brings in some key features that can help alleviate some problems occurring now in Warframe. Edited July 30, 2015 by MikeTheAshmigo

[AlphaHorseman]

Who is ready for U17!

I know I am can't wait.

Bit off topic I know, but I really hope U17 brings in some key features that can help alleviate some problems occurring now in Warframe.

There's a vine up by Steve on his Vine account that has the U17 build notes. Might wanna check it out!