Still Think Spy 2.0 Needs Some Work.

[(PSN)theelix]

Preface: This is my opinion, as I did like the challenge stealth gave in the past, because there was nothing really on the line if you messed up.

 

You could wait for a few minutes and the alert status for the enemy AI would semi-recede. They would still hide around corners, and spot you through walls, but you could still do a little bit of stealthing. It was also really funny to just stop suddenly, pull out the most over-the-top weapon, such as the Ogris, Penta, or Dread and be like "F*^& this." and Roflstomp everything into the ground. But now, you earn additional affinity for successfully adhering to the stealth mechanic... Which is not a stable mechanic to begin with.

 

Let's start with enemy placement. If ever RNG was not supposed to be in something, it would be the enemy placement in missions where stealth is key and knowing is over two-thirds of the battle. Certain mods help with this; Enemy Sense and Enemy Radar, the Warframe mod and Aura mod, respectively. This doesn't make for a good mechanic if it requires a clutch to compensate for bad placement of enemies, and a lot of the time, not even that's enough to help. There are enemy placements that have the enemy AI walk directly into your spawn as the cutscene is playing, which have them instantly aggro, run back and set off the alarm, which alerts all the AI in the next two sectors, and causes the enemy to be "hypersensitive" to your location. In this case, hypersensitive means unless you have an ability to be invisible, they know exactly where you are without being in any sort of line of sight conceivable.

 

Next, we start with the enemy AI itself, which was supposedly tweaked, but I'm not seeing any changes. Enemy protocol for alert when you're not in the immediate vicinity(shoot you in the face range), is to hide behind something and peak over every few moments, and wait until you show up. This is where the AI becomes hypersensitive and it's very difficult, though not impossible, to get around them to stealth kill them. They can see you through walls, hear your footsteps around a finicky proximity, and throw grenades with 100% accuracy unless you make a path that's in-compensate-able. Better learn how to serpentine real well if you wanna dodge those grenades, which also have a medium sized radius, and ridiculous amount of damage. There is no indicator, and it's quite difficult to see against most floor tiles, as they blend very well. The enemy AI also seems to not have any alert timer when they hide behind cover, meaning almost any enemy that hides behind something and is looking for you, will stay looking for you until they're killed. You get no stealth affinity bonus for killing these enemies, and it can remove your built up bonus.

 

Next, the Stealth affinity bonus itself. This is a mode in which you're supposed to take your time and be patient, yet the stealth affinity bonus timer is rushing you. You need a minute to be sure, especially if some of the enemy pathing is bad, and has them stand in a single spot indefinitely, or at least more than those measly thirty seconds that you have to kill another enemy. 

 

All in all, I don't like the mechanic for stealth now that there is a bonus. Because I can barely attain it without cheesing the mission by using the "stealth frames" Loki or Ash, and I truly don't see a reason why this mechanic should exist if it's only viable on two frames. It should be viable on all frames, so that someone who either doesn't have those frames can still do it, or someone who doesn't like those frames can still enjoy the experience.

 

A thread with feedback on the Huras Kubrow and the Shade Sentinel will be following. Please do not bring them up in this thread, as they have their own specific problems.

 

Edit: I almost forgot.

Doors.

#$%^ those things. Those worthless things that ruin your stealth runs in multiple ways. Some doors, like friendship doors that exist in solo as well, for some reason, have enemies walking into them, which makes it impossible to open them without being spotted. If you have a weapon equipped with punch through, you could kill them... Only to alert enemies on the other side of the door, because there are usually mobs of enemies in waiting on the other side.

Other doors simply don't open unless you're right in front of it, and an enemy is usually walking around it, or to it, and will spot you if it opens and ruins your runs. Enemy sense doesn't tell you where someone is facing. Codex Scanners and Synthesis Scanners can't look into other sections(basically anything behind a door) or over a certain amount of meters. Maybe like 50 or 25 meters is where it loses its ability to see things.

Other doors are rigged with forever on traps, like the Grineer radiation doors, that you can shoot out the camera of, and sometimes it alerts enemies that have a path through it. There's also the problem where if they successfully walk through this door, they will become alerted, hide, and be hypersensitive. They could also sound the alarm and completely mess you over entirely because of the game's error.

There are other doors that glitch and show you nothing but pure blackness until you walk through.

Some doors close on you and glitch you through the map.

Some doors never open.

Some doors are always open, which isn't always a good thing.

Some doors have invisible barriers because even though the door looks to be open, the code says it's closed and it somehow negates all form of punch through.

Just... $%^& those things.

Edited June 11, 2015 by (PS4)theelix

[BlackCoMerc]

Agreed. 

 

Stealth in Warframe is incredibly flawed. Random enemy placement does not work. We need real AI, with limited patrol radius or paths, and the ability to watch enemies and learn those patrols. We also need fewer - far, far fewer - enemies on Stealth maps. And I dont mean just in the Vaults; I mean all over the map. These Vaults on Spy missions and Prisoners on Rescue missions are supposed to be hyper-sensitive, access-restricted areas. And yet we have 200+ soldiers guarding every single one of them. And any of those common soldiers allowed to simply walk right into a vault any time.

 

The Devs need to take a look at games like Dishonored and Deus Ex: HR for ideas on Stealth. Limited but intelligent enemies. Limited, learnable patrol routes and routines. Real Stealth mechanics, like sound radius, line of sight, suspicion level, etc. When the entire map is a Stealth mission with limited enemy spawns and intelligent AI, that I can defeat in virtually any frame without cheesing Invisibility, I will be interested.

 

Until then Spy and Rescue are terrible, broken missions with more flaws than fun.

[Elkybam]

Sensor Regulators STILL have too much health. I also understand that their perception of spotting a Warframe will instantly trigger the alarm, which is pathetic. They're just ultimate "@#$% you" factors in a stealth game, especially when there's at least 3 guarding one door where one wrong move could be losing 2/3 of the expected stealth affinity.

 

Some spy tiles have multiple alternate entrances into the terminals. But some don't, and it completely screws everyone to take a forced route (i.e. Grineer vault where you have to disable two guard rays, and theres just 2-3 regulators camping the door that leads inside).

 

There shouldn't be any restriction to what Warframe/Weapon you bring either, especially when you're just grinding the Affinity. Bring a Loki? Sure, as if the new players possibly couldn't have it any more challenging.

 

Spy 2.5: What they said ^