Excalibur Rework : Press "e" To Win

[TheBrsrkr]

CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA CHWAA

Feel free to copy paste that when you need to describe EB.

Seriously, 25m isn't that short, and 3 or 4m of punch through isn't exactly a crippling number. Also, give him some damage reduction if there's some kind of block bar when stamina is removed. Auto parry is nice, but stamina makes it somewhat of a liability.

[MichaelSD]

To the OP: YES!

The whole EB was a bad idea to begin with, as explained so many times in other threads.

[Ithloniel]

I'm on a bus typing on my phone, but I've been keeping up on the thread, and I'll try my best to sunmarize my current interpretation.

It seems there is a sense that exblade needs a change, but the general consensus seems to be that these changes should be conservative. After pondering this, I have only two suggestions. Tell me what you think and critique as needed:

1) By upping energy drain from 2.5 to 3, we increase the max efficiency drain from 0.625 to 1.0 energy/sec. This seems reasonable. It can still potentially last indefinitely, but it is harder to do so.

2) punch-through should remain infinite through the environment, but have a cap when passing through enemies, to limit punch-through while avoiding clipping issues. The range of punch-through can be increased by power range mods.

[RahuHordika]

2) punch-through should remain infinite through the environment, but have a cap when passing through enemies, to limit punch-through while avoiding clipping issues. The range of punch-through can be increased by power range mods.

I will admit to the infinite punthrougih being a teensy bit silly as it is now. If any changes are made I think they should be directed at that.

 

However I will say that it might need just a little bit of enviromental punchthrough, just do avoid potential collision and hit detection issues.

[RafaelFuchs]

Seriously, 25m isn't that short, and 3 or 4m of punch through isn't exactly a crippling number. Also, give him some damage reduction if there's some kind of block bar when stamina is removed. Auto parry is nice, but stamina makes it somewhat of a liability.

 

stamina is constantly regening unless you are actively doing something (sprinting, wall running and so on). so, you literally can't run out of stamina for the auto-parry mechanic. you will never take damage from the front unless it's an explosive weapon, radial blast, hook or environmental hazard. if it is an explosive weapon, you will take reduced damage if it directly hits your front because you 'blocked' it (reduced by the same amount as if you were rolling). you can also manually block the hooks, but the auto-parry will not trigger on those. 

 

go to the simulacrum and spawn in as many heavy gunners as you see fit and stand in front of them till you get bored, fall asleep and wake up to see your excal still casually swatting away bullets as if they were angry mosquitoes. 

 

 

as i think i've stated on this thread before, the 40m range is too much for a melee frame. however, the blades should keep their indefinite punchthrough, but the range should be dropped to something more reasonable (i could see anywhere from 10-20m to be perfectly reasonable). they should also get an expanding effect so they have more of an actual slash look and feel to them instead of the current crescents of energy with a fancy trail. they would keep their effectiveness and won't be equal to a standard semi-auto rifle. however, i don't see that ever happening due to the amount effort it would take on DE's part to make that a reality. where excal is currently at isn't overpowered. he's on par with quite a few other frames and is below a few more on his potential in combat. 

[Marthrym]

stamina is constantly regening unless you are actively doing something (sprinting, wall running and so on). so, you literally can't run out of stamina for the auto-parry mechanic. you will never take damage from the front unless it's an explosive weapon, radial blast, hook or environmental hazard. if it is an explosive weapon, you will take reduced damage if it directly hits your front because you 'blocked' it (reduced by the same amount as if you were rolling). you can also manually block the hooks, but the auto-parry will not trigger on those. 

 

go to the simulacrum and spawn in as many heavy gunners as you see fit and stand in front of them till you get bored, fall asleep and wake up to see your excal still casually swatting away bullets as if they were angry mosquitoes. 

 

You forgot procs. Parrying doesn't protect from procs. Believe me, in a real mission, for example having a few Grineer units past level 20-25 shooting at you from the front won't end end well for you if you fall asleep... Same goes for explosives of all kind, you'll end up on your @ss because of the blast. That's why many people mention Handspring in their E.Blade builds. See, not THAT invulnerable after all.

 

Oh and who cares about stamina anyway? You auto-parry forever even if you're out of stamina, E. Blade doesn't care for it, probably in anticipation of its removal.

[TheBrsrkr]

stamina is constantly regening unless you are actively doing something (sprinting, wall running and so on). so, you literally can't run out of stamina for the auto-parry mechanic. you will never take damage from the front unless it's an explosive weapon, radial blast, hook or environmental hazard. if it is an explosive weapon, you will take reduced damage if it directly hits your front because you 'blocked' it (reduced by the same amount as if you were rolling). you can also manually block the hooks, but the auto-parry will not trigger on those.

go to the simulacrum and spawn in as many heavy gunners as you see fit and stand in front of them till you get bored, fall asleep and wake up to see your excal still casually swatting away bullets as if they were angry mosquitoes.

as i think i've stated on this thread before, the 40m range is too much for a melee frame. however, the blades should keep their indefinite punchthrough, but the range should be dropped to something more reasonable (i could see anywhere from 10-20m to be perfectly reasonable). they should also get an expanding effect so they have more of an actual slash look and feel to them instead of the current crescents of energy with a fancy trail. they would keep their effectiveness and won't be equal to a standard semi-auto rifle. however, i don't see that ever happening due to the amount effort it would take on DE's part to make that a reality. where excal is currently at isn't overpowered. he's on par with quite a few other frames and is below a few more on his potential in combat.

I try to use the actual sword a lot, so my stamina is almost always gone. Could be I'm doing it wrong. I'll try it in the simaralcum.

I agree, for a swordsman, you almost never use the sword. There's no reason to. The waves for slightly less damage but are a hell of a lot note effective. I think 15m would be good, but good luck getting anyone behind that. People are too used to using it as a gun now.

[RafaelFuchs]

You forgot procs. Parrying doesn't protect from procs. Believe me, in a real mission, for example having a few Grineer units past level 20-25 shooting at you from the front won't end end well for you if you fall asleep... Same goes for explosives of all kind, you'll end up on your @ss because of the blast. That's why many people mention Handspring in their E.Blade builds. See, not THAT invulnerable after all.

 

Oh and who cares about stamina anyway? You auto-parry forever even if you're out of stamina, E. Blade doesn't care for it, probably in anticipation of its removal.

yeah, thought i was forgetting something. procs are the bane. my points still stand however. you won't die from bullets anytime soon.

[Marthrym]

yeah, thought i was forgetting something. procs are the bane. my points still stand however. you won't die from bullets anytime soon.

That's very true.^^

Come at me Gunners!

[Jinryusai]

yeah, thought i was forgetting something. procs are the bane. my points still stand however. you won't die from bullets anytime soon.

Unless you are running nightmare and enemies hidden from LoS Blind manage to shoot you in the back or the side...

[IronRoby]

The only legitimate concern introduced by the OP is that some PC Tenno apparently have not rebinded the melee/quick melee key to Mouse 4 or 5 as is proper.

Edited July 8, 2015 by IronRoby

[Malitias]

He just speaks the truth, and you know it.

[Elkyx]

The only legitimate concern introduced by the OP is that some PC Tenno apparently have not rebinded the melee/quick melee key to Mouse 4 or 5 as is proper.

Yeah, no. My piano fingers can hit e and still hit d with my thumb, mouse 4 is for crouch toggle for fast coptering and m5 is for Nothing, because it is a trash button (I think I have use power there)

[Malitias]

Yeah, no. My piano fingers can hit e and still hit d with my thumb, mouse 4 is for crouch toggle for fast coptering and m5 is for Nothing, because it is a trash button (I think I have use power there)

Can you walk forward and right and press E and jump at the same time while running?

Edited July 8, 2015 by Malitias

[StonedMakak]

I'm on a bus typing on my phone, but I've been keeping up on the thread, and I'll try my best to sunmarize my current interpretation.

It seems there is a sense that exblade needs a change, but the general consensus seems to be that these changes should be conservative. After pondering this, I have only two suggestions. Tell me what you think and critique as needed:

1) By upping energy drain from 2.5 to 3, we increase the max efficiency drain from 0.625 to 1.0 energy/sec. This seems reasonable. It can still potentially last indefinitely, but it is harder to do so.

2) punch-through should remain infinite through the environment, but have a cap when passing through enemies, to limit punch-through while avoiding clipping issues. The range of punch-through can be increased by power range mods.

 

1) The energy drain is really not a problem. That is because the core design of the ability, which is sacrificing majority of ranged viability for melee superiority. It' meant to be tactical decision, and the upkeep is meant to be low, because staying in EB should not be a good idea in every situation. Obviously, it is not the case at the moment, which brings us to...

 

2) The punch through, a.k.a the core problem of the core design. This makes the intended trade-off almost irrelevant. If it is nerfed in any way suggested in the thread be it damage fall-off, range reduction or a cap on the punch through, the effective cost of EB will go up anyway. Why? Without the infinite punch-through, you will have to run around more and engage enemies in CQC. When you see a group of enemies in the distance, slashing air in their general direction won't do the trick, you will have to parkour/run/SD to them. When surrounded on all sides, hiding behind some indestructible cover and slashing away will also accomplish nothing - that means more RB usage. No punch through = more time in EB, more abilities used, effective cost goes up. 

 

If you just up the energy cost, people will just use the same cheese tactics with maximum efficiency builds. If then you increase it some more, EB gets reduced to a melee buff that you turn on, and mash E as fast as possible, swinging the camera around for maximum coverage before you have to turn it off. Not that enticing perspective.

 

In short: Make it so that the ability has no inherent advantage when turned on, so that a player with EB  can't just dominate the match by mashing E. Make the EB more skill dependent, instead of artificial limiting the skill while leaving the cheese factor untouched.  

 

Edit: I suppose you could increase the upkeep, provided you make EB instant cast. Otherwise it's a bad idea. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by tisdfogg

[fatpig84]

Make EB affected by Power duration and Power range. And not drain based.

Tada. Done.

 

Want an EB to rival valkyr ? Slap on Narrow minded, but your beams go no where.

Want range on your EB ? Don't use narrow minded and your duration is crap to say the least.

 

There issue fixed. Next.

Don't need over complicated fixes that you people keep suggesting.

[Marthrym]

Make EB affected by Power duration and Power range. And not drain based.

Tada. Done.

 

Want an EB to rival valkyr ? Slap on Narrow minded, but your beams go no where.

Want range on your EB ? Don't use narrow minded and your duration is crap to say the least.

 

There issue fixed. Next.

Don't need over complicated fixes that you people keep suggesting.

That's not a fix...

Just MOAR min-maxing, MOAR pigeon-holing, MOAR abilities suffering because of it.

Edited July 8, 2015 by Marthrym

[fatpig84]

That's not a fix...

Just MOAR min-maxing, MOAR pigeon-holing, MOAR abilities suffering because of it.

 

That's the idea, you people are saying that EB is super OP that deals 1 million damage per wave.

Then give it the restrictions that plague Valkyr.

 

Increasing duration kills your range, which affects RB, SD, RJ and the sword beams. Just like how WC/Paralysis suffer in a Hysteria build. But long duration means you stay longer in perma block mode and your melee damage is always perma boosted.

 

Trying to save range keeps your duration minimal thanks to all your fleeting expertise and yada yada, but your other abilities don't suffer as badly.

 

This fixes everything by itself aka a balancing act.

Edited July 8, 2015 by fatpig84

[StonedMakak]

That's the idea, you people are saying that EB is super OP that deals 1 million damage per wave.

Then give it the restrictions that plague Valkyr.

 

Increasing duration kills your range, which affects RB, SD, RJ and the sword beams. Just like how WC/Paralysis suffer in a Hysteria build. But long duration means you stay longer in perma block mode and your melee damage is always perma boosted.

 

Trying to save range keeps your duration minimal thanks to all your fleeting expertise and yada yada, but your other abilities don't suffer as badly.

 

This fixes everything by itself aka a balancing act.

 

The "build for one skill only" approach is what plagues the ability system as a whole, and you want to throw Excal in that bag, despite the fact that he's been just pulled out of it? Sure this will fix EB. In the laziest way possible. 

 

And even if I only have 10 m punch through on my EB in order to have decent duration, I can still cheese with it. Just a matter of finding a good spot to camp. 

 

Also, nerfing punch through - over-complicated solution. Changing the skill form sustained to duration-based, blanket-nerfing the new found synergy in his kit - simple solution. Respectful disagree, it's the other way around. 

[MichaelSD]

1. What sacrifice? Most of the time the "jedi" waves are more than enough in range. Hardly a great sacrifice. WIth EB Excalibur is hardly a melee frame.

2. Why do we need the EB again? You can give all the bonuses the swords, skanas, which Excalibur can use. Have EB as an ult is not required. Except for the wanna be jedis....

[fatpig84]

The "build for one skill only" approach is what plagues the ability system as a whole, and you want to throw Excal in that bag, despite the fact that he's been just pulled out of it? Sure this will fix EB. In the laziest way possible. 

 

And even if I only have 10 m punch through on my EB in order to have decent duration, I can still cheese with it. Just a matter of finding a good spot to camp. 

 

Also, nerfing punch through - over-complicated solution. Changing the skill form sustained to duration-based, blanket-nerfing the new found synergy in his kit - simple solution. Respectful disagree, it's the other way around. 

 

This is what the corrupted mod system is supposed to do.

You are supposed to have drawbacks when you specialized in something.

You are not supposed to cheese through it with no draw backs.

So you don't fit any of the corrupted mods, you don't have to fear anything at all.

 

Right now the draining system is one of the systems with the least draw backs.

Look at Effigy, Peacemaker and Exalted blade.

You only need to fit efficiency.

That's it.

 

And damage mods. You don't even need to fit range.

At least Soundquake and Asborb still needs range.

And for absorb, you still need to fit for supplies due to the increased enemy damage exponentially increasing energy drain.

 

These 3 above have too few drawbacks and should be adjusted accordingly.

Edited July 8, 2015 by fatpig84

[Marthrym]

That's the idea, you people are saying that EB is super OP that deals 1 million damage per wave.

Then give it the restrictions that plague Valkyr.

 

Increasing duration kills your range, which affects RB, SD, RJ and the sword beams. Just like how WC/Paralysis suffer in a Hysteria build. But long duration means you stay longer in perma block mode and your melee damage is always perma boosted.

 

Trying to save range keeps your duration minimal thanks to all your fleeting expertise and yada yada, but your other abilities don't suffer as badly.

 

This fixes everything by itself aka a balancing act.

"You people"? I'd appreciate it if YOU didn't tell ME what I have and haven't said, thank you very much...

You can't balance using mods only. The ability itself has to be balanced by default.

There's a difference between min-maxing (which I have no problem with by the by) and basically killing your entire kit just to make ONE ability not stronger, but simply viable (Chaos is one of the best examples of this). It happens enough already, so let's not further encourage this plox...

Edited July 8, 2015 by Marthrym

[StonedMakak]

This is what the corrupted mod system is supposed to do.

You are supposed to have drawbacks when you specialized in something.

You are not supposed to cheese through it with no draw backs.

So you don't fit any of the corrupted mods, you don't have to fear anything at all.

 

Right now the draining system is one of the systems with the least draw backs.

Look at Effigy, Peacemaker and Exalted blade.

You only need to fit efficiency.

That's it.

 

And damage mods. You don't even need to fit range.

At least Soundquake and Asborb still needs range.

And for absorb, you still need to fit for supplies due to the increased enemy damage exponentially increasing energy drain.

 

These 3 above have too few drawbacks and should be adjusted accordingly.

 

Except corrupted mods usually make that one skill so powerful that you don't even feel the drawbacks. Otherwise camp squads wouldn't be a thing, and they happen to be the meta in Warframe. Same goes for the whole P42W issue.

 

Yes, but you did not suggest nerfing the ability within the confines of energy drain system, you suggested outright replacing it with base duration. The problem with Peacemaker is not the fact that it's on upkeep, it's the aimbot that makes it OP and promotes inactivity. Make it duration based and it will still have the aimbot, and still promote inactivity, it will just deal less damage overall/ have smaller range/low duration etc., but mechanically it will be still the same boring aimbot.

 

Make effigy duration based, and it will still be a turret. You just make numerical adjustments so that the overall damage potential does not pass a certain threshold. Here we disagree, because I believe that skills should be limited first and foremost by mechanics of how they work, not arbitrary stats like range, power or duration. But that's just my opinion. 

[fatpig84]

"You people"? I'd appreciate it if YOU didn't tell ME what I have and haven't said, thank you very much.

You can't balance using mods only. The ability itself has to be balanced by default.

There's a difference between min-maxing (which I have no problem with by the by) and basically killing your entire kit just to make ONE ability not stronger, but simply viable (Chaos is one of the best examples of this). It happens enough already, so let's not further encourage this plox...

 

How is making Power range a requirement going to "kill" EB or say Peacemaker ?

[Jinryusai]

He just speaks the truth, and you know it.

And it won't get nerfed anytime soon