Ash 2.0

[_FrostPrime_]

I support nothing more than the smoke bomb change. It's only truly useful when it's augmented. Plus the fact it halts all mobility temporarily. Not fun. Everything else, is perfectly fine as is. Just need Bladestorms ironed out a bit since it's buggy as all get-out, but he's not in desperate need of anything either.

[Magnus]

I support nothing more than the smoke bomb change. It's only truly useful when it's augmented. Plus the fact it halts all mobility temporarily. Not fun. Everything else, is perfectly fine as is. Just need Bladestorms ironed out a bit since it's buggy as all get-out, but he's not in desperate need of anything either.

 

You're in the minority, then, as players don't want gameplay being taken out of their hands now that we can see what they can do, and what Excal has. Cinematic Storm is going to be killed, as fair warning. Might not be my idea, but it is going.

[(PSN)KiloCrusher]

I'm guessing you haven't played Ash right if you find him boring. There aren't any current problems with Ash, unless you build him for blade storm spam. All of his abilities have their place, making Ash fairly versatile.

 

If you're looking for a way to make Ash more effective while limiting the amount of blade storm usage, pick up the Rising Storm augment. Rising Storm turns Ash into a melee machine by allowing Ash to hold onto melee multipliers for much longer, as long as blade storm is used once during the multiplier chain. Seriously, check it out! It's a great augment that can really change the way Ash is played. Plus, Rising Storm eliminates the need for a pure strength build and encourages a duration based build which also compliments smoke screen well. 

 

Not only that, but teleport is great for singling out bigger enemies (Heavy Gunners, bombards, etc.) since enemies teleported to become opened up for  finishers.

 

For me, Ash is awesome the way he currently is.

[Lord_of_Lords]

Let me start by saying that I have 8 forma on my ash for a maxed strength + max eff + stretch + rising storm build.

 

The damage on bladestorm is great.  150k of finisher damage in not uncommon for me when doing a T4 survival.  Sure you have to 2-hit bombards at 60 mins but big deal; you just 2-hit a bombard at 60 mins of a T4 survival.  Melee multipliers are overpowered and nobody has realized it yet.

 

I kind of support this idea.  Overall, it makes ash more useful.

 

The only change I would suggest is that the new bladestorm needs to be a line of sight test (like Peacemaker from mesa).  You could make the ability more useful by turning into the same type of channel as equinox's 3.  In ash's case, bladestorm would use a little energy every time a hologram came out of the shadows and attacked an enemy.

 

The only BIG problem I see is that the clones need to stack a melee multiplier to be of any late game use (preferably this would stack even if you had your primary out).

 

Overall, good thoughts.  I kind of support this (and I have room to talk about being forced to change my build).  Needs a little DE love for "balance."

[_FrostPrime_]

You're in the minority, then, as players don't want gameplay being taken out of their hands now that we can see what they can do, and what Excal has. Cinematic Storm is going to be killed, as fair warning. Might not be my idea, but it is going.

 

You're staff, obviously, right? You can confirm this as fact apparently?

 

Ash is great in diffusing a situation before it gets out of hand. But if it does get out of hand, he starts to struggle a rather fair amount. He's fine as is, atm, except for the smoke bombs being majorly unusable a majority of the time.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Slightly on topic I guess:

I've been playing around with archwing for the last few days. Finally got round to crafting the Itzal. All I have to say is.

The blink on the Itzal is @(*()$ awesome. Why is it that Ash can only blink to a target when using the blink on the Itzal is so god damned fun! It's not like it stands to break mobility anymore, every frame now has Zephyr's first ability to jet around the map.

If they aren't going to rework Ash I'd really like to see at the very least his teleport be able to cast freely as well as targeted.

So true.

https://youtu.be/KcOED5hPfwA

The teleport needs the dishonored treatment.

That aside, pretty perfect kit. The shuriken augument could need a few more shurikens as well but it would be pretty ok to bind that change to the aug.

[xLordKogax]

I had a Dream that Loki's Invisibility was a Toggled drain ability with no time duration

Ash's Smoke Screen was 30 secs with a radial cloud AoE

 

xD Food for Thought!

 

II wouldnt mind Loki having Permanent Invisibility and Ash having a Buffed 30 secs

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Well, ash still offers arcane trickery for advanced players. Up to 20Sec guaranteed invisibility on a zero duration build...that's plenty.

Edited August 21, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[PsychoZlasher]

I don't want teleport to be replaced.

Shuriken can be changed so it bounces from one enemy to another and the seeking shuriken stays the same. Smoke screen needs to be changed though but I don't know how.

Teleport is fine maybe change it so it ministuns all the enemies surrounding the target and your location before teleporting. I also liked that one idea about the teleport + shuriken, where you throw a shuriken and uses it as a teleport target.

People want to remove bladestorm cinematic effect but a lot of players want to let it be. So why not both? Using BS will make you mark an area and you go to assasin mode. Aiming to an enemy inside the area and pressing e will make you do something, I don't know you think about it. But if you hold e you go to cinematic effect, attacking with more damage but with limited number of enemies.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

I don't want teleport to be replaced.

Shuriken can be changed so it bounces from one enemy to another and the seeking shuriken stays the same. Smoke screen needs to be changed though but I don't know how.

Teleport is fine maybe change it so it ministuns all the enemies surrounding the target and your location before teleporting. I also liked that one idea about the teleport + shuriken, where you throw a shuriken and uses it as a teleport target.

People want to remove bladestorm cinematic effect but a lot of players want to let it be. So why not both? Using BS will make you mark an area and you go to assasin mode. Aiming to an enemy inside the area and pressing e will make you do something, I don't know you think about it. But if you hold e you go to cinematic effect, attacking with more damage but with limited number of enemies.

I allready explained this a couple times but bs is decent how it is. It's kinda slow and limiting but runs the most effective dmg types in the game..it's still fast enough to stack and benefit from a multiplier and you can cast it from afar.

Evry change to the ability that isn't a cosmetic one would eather ruin the ability or litteraly BREAK the dmg system, making evry single dmg frame out there useless. Picture ash beein something like a second excal with archwing teleport mode, valkyr godmode and finisher dmg...would you play anything else EVER again?

I'm in for a few cosmetic changes and bugfixes (like getting stuck on lvl 100 eximus units) but that aside...lets just leave it alone.

Jumping shuriken, nice. But smokescreen...do you realise that the instant CC resets stealth multipliers? The ability isn't meant to offer like perfect defense but to further buff your dmg.

Teleport is the only ability that RLY needs something done. Be it blink (movement) or auto-aim but S#&$'s just useless as it is now.

It's in absolute conflict with his fast-paced gameplay what's a real issue for ash.

[PsychoZlasher]

Teleport is not useless it's useful. Life strike + teleports completely heals you. But that doesn't mean I don't want it to be tweaked.

Free aim messes with targeting aim if it's pinpoint accuracy. If you miss, boom you can't use finishers on your enemies. And also using finishers on your enemy makes you invulnerable to damage. If they change it to blinking, I just wish it stuns the enemies around the target area and opens them up for finishers.

Smoke screen could need a little help. Maybe faster cast time or invulnerability while casting. To avoid dying while casting.

I don't know about BS, I only use it when I'm in a tight spot. I'm more of a teleport spamming ash.

[xLordKogax]

Teleport is not useless it's useful. Life strike + teleports completely heals you. But that doesn't mean I don't want it to be tweaked.

Free aim messes with targeting aim if it's pinpoint accuracy. If you miss, boom you can't use finishers on your enemies. And also using finishers on your enemy makes you invulnerable to damage. If they change it to blinking, I just wish it stuns the enemies around the target area and opens them up for finishers.

Smoke screen could need a little help. Maybe faster cast time or invulnerability while casting. To avoid dying while casting.

I don't know about BS, I only use it when I'm in a tight spot. I'm more of a teleport spamming ash.

 

I quoted that Free aim should be shorter range maybe a higher energy cost

 

Targeted Teleport should trigger an Auto finisher this way you dont miss certain enemies.

 

Ive had enemies i teleported to still run which means the stun was bugged and the enemy can escape making teleport unreliable at times

[(PSN)Kalamidy_]

I love Ash, I want him to stay the way he is.  I just wan the God Frames to be nerfed. :)

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Not to mention the wasted time targeting...or even how impossible it is while you have a melee weapon equipped...

Teleport is not useless it's useful. Life strike + teleports completely heals you. But that doesn't mean I don't want it to be tweaked.

Free aim messes with targeting aim if it's pinpoint accuracy. If you miss, boom you can't use finishers on your enemies. And also using finishers on your enemy makes you invulnerable to damage. If they change it to blinking, I just wish it stuns the enemies around the target area and opens them up for finishers.

Smoke screen could need a little help. Maybe faster cast time or invulnerability while casting. To avoid dying while casting.

I don't know about BS, I only use it when I'm in a tight spot. I'm more of a teleport spamming ash.

That idea is actually pretty cool. Better movement + basicly the same benefits as paralysis. I like it. Edited August 21, 2015 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[xLordKogax]

I love Ash, I want him to stay the way he is.  I just wan the God Frames to be nerfed. :)

 

That made no sense and has no base argument.

[Magnus]

You're staff, obviously, right? You can confirm this as fact apparently?

 

No, I'm not staff, but I can confirm it as fact. I did speak with someone on staff and learn about discussions that take place behind closed doors, and while not full details, I do know Bladestorm's been on the table.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Extraxi

[Ishkabibbles]

I'm a big fan of this deisgn overall, I'd break out ash and play him with a kit like this. (Maybe even bring him to a trail.)

[Magnus]

Touched up Smoke Screen to have more freedom. Being able to throw it in any direction, like Vauban would, and not just down, opens it up to a much wider application of CC and targeted killing. I've also adjusted the Augment to make Smoke Screen more intensive on CC.

 

I also fixed the massive typo I somehow made at the end of the post as well that I hadn't noticed.

[Hammahness808]

Touched up Smoke Screen to have more freedom. Being able to throw it in any direction, like Vauban would, and not just down, opens it up to a much wider application of CC and targeted killing. I've also adjusted the Augment to make Smoke Screen more intensive on CC.

 

I also fixed the massive typo I somehow made at the end of the post as well that I hadn't noticed.

I almost suggested the other day that Ash have his shurikens replaced with miniature smoke bombs but that's a much better idea.

[xLordKogax]

I almost suggested the other day that Ash have his shurikens replaced with miniature smoke bombs but that's a much better idea.

I made an idea called Shuriken Burst

I had an idea to make it a charged attack, but i heard it would be hard to mesh.

 

Soo this sprung to mind I propose Channeled abilities.

Shuriken Burst Ash does a spinning animation on the ground. 

Aerial shuriken Ash animations a Flip and projects 12 shurikens in a short range tha does less damage to shields and Opens all enemies hit to Finishers. 

(While Ash is in animation he is invincible to Knockdowns but takes damage)

 

I also think Secondary elemental mods should also effect its damage and give an elemental proc

 

This will push Shurikens damage to end game and scale better depending on modding

Edited August 31, 2015 by xLordKogax

[Yuilogy]

You have some interesting ideas.

 

The shuriken buff would be cool. But i love the idea for smokescreen that definately needs to be done its great. 

 

For both the 3 and 4th abilities he should not create holograms but instead create smoke clones it would fit his theme better.  

 

Now the third ability, I am not sure that really suits ash and for it to be of any worth he would have to summon a lot of clones because summoning four clones to lockdown four enemies isnt really worth it.

 

Bladestorm, its an interesting concept but i am getting a bit of mirage out of these two clones thing so i have an idea to change it up.

 

(If this is what you meant i apologize)

Ash summons smoke clones that act like spectres in an area and if enemies enter the radius of the ability the smoke clones teleport to the enemy and take down. 

 

They should follow ash however not be stook on him like Hall of mirrors.

[Rabidbluedeath]

Note: I have been unable to play since March so I am working with information that might be outdated.

 

Ash Prime looks amazing, he really does. The most painful downside of how amazing he looks is that he's still just Ash. While he isn't as down as Oberon, he's ultimately quite boring as the best method to play him is to keep him in Bladestorm, watching the same animations over and over and over again.

 

I really don't understand this mentality. "I like the idea of Ash, I just don't like anything about Ash." But your entitled to your opinion. That doesn't mean we need to start from the ground up and make him a completely different frame. Can't we just tweak him?

 

This is a complete rework, much like Excalibur 2.0 which led to the current state of Excalibur. The idea of this rework is to adjust his abilities to gain scaling and more practical utility, separating himself from Loki completely to stand out on his own and become more unique in order to become a welcome addition to an end game group while also giving more variety to the current playstyles.

 

I can't comment on the current state of excalibur as I haven't played him since march, but I don't think a complete rework is needed. Scaling is good, but Loki is pretty much the embodiment of practical utility. So you want to differentiate Ash from Loki by shifting focus from damage to utility, turning him into a Loki? He is different already, as he is more for damage. I would like him to have more group utility however.

 

1: Shuriken - A single shuriken flies towards the enemy your reticule is closest to and deals slash damage as well as having a high chance to proc slash. Where the shuriken hits creates a weakpoint that doesn't do bonus damage, but instead simply ignores the enemy's armor or shields in that spot. Hold onto the cast button to lock onto multiple targets, or multiple times on one target, to launch more shuriken at a time.

Scaling off melee or secondary weapon's mods would be ideal.

Augment - Seeking Shuriken would, instead of removing only 70%, woud completely remove armor OR shield from an enemy. The duration of this would be based on the same duration as Shuriken's.

Shuriken would be affeted by Strength and Duration. Strength would increase the intial damage, as well as the amount of each tick from the slash proc, while Duration would dictate how long the weakpoint (or augment) stay active, as well as the length of the slash proc.

Reason to Update: Shuriken on their own don't get very far and have no utility alone. While the current augment already does most of what this update does, it creates a small, skill based oppurtunity to take advantage of, at least on your own.

 

So a weaker version of Sonar? One you admit yourself is pretty much worthless in team play, which is one of the main goals of your rework.

 

Most groups already run with 4xCP, the benefits of adding holes in armor would be exclusive to solo play, or as a carry for lower level players through something harder. Essentially, it's just a way of adding a unique bit to it, along with the mass lock on.

 

Why bother tweaking the ability in this manner? And why are we giving Ash a sonar-esque ability? I won't deny Shuriken is pretty worthless and it needs some work but not this. Also hell no on scaling with weapons. 1. By having it scale with weapons as well as ability mods your saying "This isn't strong enough as is so we need to funnel additional mods into it." 2. It restricts how you play as you now need a fully leveled,forma'd and modded weapon to use the ability effectively. If you level the weapon it scales off of you lose weapon AND ability functionality. Abilities and weapons should be separate.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing the weakpoints as a damage multiplier, but as you point out the armor reduction is worthless. And maybe holding it down increases the multiplier value instead of giving more targets. Then its more of an assassin ability. Or make the shurkiens  give potent CC effects instead of damage multipliers. Just don't change it in a near useless manner for the sake of changing it.

 

2: Smoke Screen - Taking a page from the new Radial Blind, Ash throws a smoke bomb out towards where he is aiming like Vauban though faster, be it in air or while mobile, and creates a massive cloud of smoke on the ground. Enemies targeting anything inside of the cloud lose significant amounts of accuracy, and enemies inside of the cloud itself become blinded and wander aimlessly and can possibly walk out of the cloud as well. Smoke Bomb can be cast multiple times to create more clouds, and for the sake of balance, caps off at three (and perhaps, even add a cooldown if spending all three too quickly?).

Enemies blinded in the smoke are subject to finisher attacks, perhaps Ash's special finishers with his katars to signify extra bonus damage.

Enemies are also given a red hologram/outline inside of the smoke, much like how when you see a blue hologram of your allies through walls/obstacles, making personal and team visibility a non-issue.

Augment - Choking Gas - Enemies who find themselves in the Smoke Screen are made unable to escape, coughing and choking on the cloud. Due to the nature of the skill, mechanical units are unaffected and instead just slowed.

Smoke Screen would be affected by Duration and Range, for the time the cloud persists and how large it is.

Reason to Update: As it stands, Smoke Bomb is junk. You can't cast it while mobile, not while in the air, it's much less time while invisible compared to Loki in exchange for a temporary stagger. Making it larger and more unique, away from Invisibility, gives it more application, such as in defense or extraction. Other skill updates also promote Ash building more for duration as well, making this more synergetic with Ash's skills as opposed to how Ash is currently mininum duration.

 

I see no mention of Ash being able to be invisible... that's troubling as its one of two ways he mitigates damage, seems like a nerf to survivability. I like the idea of the smoke being a bit of a barrier though. There is another post: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/520718-ash-revisited-tweakes-and-ideas/ Which is a happy medium. I don't think smokescreen is really that bad now, its not as long as loki's but its 20 energy cheaper. I don't understand why other Ash players nerf their duration into oblivion for bladestorm as its pretty strong now. Other than stupidly high level play bladestorm with just +30% strength has been enough but to each their own. Casting while mobile would be an improvement though.

 

 

3: Shadowfall - Ash summons a number of holograms near enemies, each one grappling their target in a variety of ways in order to hold them in place, from pinning them to the ground to an elaborate arm lock.  An enemy being held can be shot, or killed with a unique finisher per weapon type (Ash, specifically, using his katars). It cannot be recast so long as some holograms are in place, so you can't send out a hundred holograms to hold down an army. Enemies can target these holograms to try and free their allies if they have no other targets.

Heavy units in the cone will always, ALWAYS, be priority targets.

Enemies being held down cannot call for help or raise an alarm for the benefit of stealth.

Augment - They explode if you hit cast again. 100% blast proc chance, knocks everything out of the way. Also makes Shadowfall recastable on your own time. If a nullifier walks near one and dispels it, THEY STILL EXPLODE!

Shadowfall is affected by Strength, Duration, and Range. Strength dictates the number of holograms, Duration is how long the holograms exist, and Range increases the size of the cone, launching holograms out further.

Reason to Replace: Teleport isn't a good mobility skill, as you need a target. It's not good for your health if you target an enemy in a group and can't cast Smoke Bomb fast enough. It's suited to target a lone heavy unit in order to do a finisher attack on them, but all frames can already dropkick a lone enemy over in order to do a finisher attack. All Teleport has, in this sense, is the ability to catch up to teammates ahead of you. Why not have something more useful?

 

This does the same thing as 2 with augment, why be redundant? Teleport needs work, I won't lie, but giving Ash 2 abilities that do basically the same thing is not how to fix him.

 

Teleport is really useful with lifestrike, that's the only use for it I've really found but its not useless as is. I think a tweak/augment where you hold down the key to teleport without a target would solve the issue most people have with this, and it wouldn't make targeted teleports easier as you have to hold it down to free teleport and tap to target teleport. Even if the free teleport cost a little more energy I wouldn't mind. It fixes issues and doesn't remove the functionality current players like.

 

4: Bladestorm - Toggle - Ash creates two high end holograms who act as wingmen, staying on his left and right, running and moving like actual units while always facing towards the closest enemy (or forward if there are no enemies). They draw enemy fire like any warframe, and block all incoming damage with Ash's unique katars, but Ash himself can still be targeted as well. Upon getting close enough to an enemy, a hologram will teleport from its position and initiate a takedown (like the current bladestorm) on whatever enemy is nearby and either return one it's finished, or jump to the next enemy nearby. Targets being attaced by clones are still damageable, and holograms will still be targeted by enemies in this state.

Holograms can and will target enemies being held by Shadowfall and use a unique finisher.

Ash will -NOT- join his holograms in their finisher attacks, giving him the ability to freely use other skills or weapons and aid his holograms in a way better than just being stuck in an animation with them.

And finally, the damage of Ash's holograms will scale off the mods of your melee weapon.

Augment - Ash gains a third hologram in Bladestorm that attempts to stay in front of Ash, in order to block any frontal damage as well as make it much harder for enemies to target Ash, as well as another unit to move into surrounding attacks for better crowd control. (If seeing around the third hologram is an issue, it can probably be transparent compared to the other two, or see through like Mirage's Hall of Mirrors.)

Bladestorm is affected by Strength and Range, for hologram damage and how close you have to be for them to initiate an attack.

Reason to Replace: Bladestorm is currently Ash's largest problem. The best way for Ash to survive being attacked by a massive group? Not Smoke Bomb, but Bladestorm. Need some crowd control? Bladestorm. Need time to recover? Bladestorm, not Smoke Bomb! Bladestorm is an instant cast, it makes Smoke Bomb pointless, and if you build for Smoke Bomb instead, it makes Shuriken and Bladestorm weak and worthless, as well as your own invisbility, because you COULD instead be playing Loki at that point. In this sense, Ash -is- Bladestorm. And you'll be watching the same animations over and over and over and over and over... Ash no longer joining his clones in the attack is definitely very, very important.

 

So a hall of mirrors that does even less to mitigate damage if your using it? You have now basically gotten rid of all damage mitigation on Ash. Even if the clones block reliably, you will still get hit. If they block explosions you will still take damage. As mitigation it doesn't scale very well. Oh and look more weapon scaling... because that somehow makes it better. Again, no, weapon scaling only reduces how you can play ash. It is a terrible idea on any frame and should be removed in favor of just making the ability stronger to compensate. It already scales off your melee counter anyway.

 

I like the current bladestorm, I wont say it doesn't have problems but its far from his largest problem. It does great damage, and mitigates damage. I would like a tweak though. Currently if ash targets 1 enemy and only one he will go through all of his hits. I would change it so any duplicate hits are done by the clones and ash ends his strikes early. So if you target 3 heavy gunners Ash will strike once (1/3 with his two clones) and the clones will continue to hit them afterward until the hit cap is reached. I think this solves a lot of the time issues people have and retains everything people like about it currently. If this is implemented I would also like an augment that makes him do the duplicate hits, just in case people want it that way.

 

People have always put Ash and Loki side by side for comparison, as they both have invisibility and are made to be stealthy. Loki focuses on stealth and makes little use of misdirection, his decoy. The focus of this rework is to make Ash the opposite of Loki, who instead focuses on misdirection and minors in stealth. Inspiration for this of course comes from Ash's current reliance Bladestorm, why not make it so he can do more with them?

Synergy is, of course, important too. Shuriken, in combination with Shadowfall, make for easy use of weakpoints. Get into a group of enemies while they're busy shooting at a clone and throw down a smoke bomb, and unleash a real bladestorm.

Team synergy is key as well in this. Smoke Bomb becomes its own way to defend points, making it hard for an enemy to attack it. Allies can hide in the cloud as well. Create more targets for enemies to target to keep the pressure off your allies, and take dangerous enemies out of play before they can really hurt a anyone with Shadowfall.

A personal favorite example of his powers working in tandem is with Loki's Disarm and Ash's Smoke Screen, luring enemies into the cloud with only their little sticks, a trap filled with Loki's Invisibility boosted melee damaged and Ash's continuous Bladestorm, making these two stealth frames create a formidable defense together. Then, add Banshee to the group with her Silence Augment and you've got one hell of a long lasting party exclusively stealthier frames.

Not only is each skill now more useful on its own with these changes, but in conjunction with each other, and as well as with other players, Ash becomes a silent protector through means of misdirection and assassination, making a safer combat scenario by keeping high threats out of play, and keeping your team out of sight.

 

Well unlike what you said at the beginning this effectively destroys every current playstyle instead of adding variety. Loki and Ash are similar, but your trying to make them even more similar by turning ash into some CC frame. Synergy is good, but shadowfall is basically the same as smokescreen. Ash now has little to no hope of surviving long term missions as you destroy most of his survival tools. Ash isn't meant to be a protector, he is meant to be the damager, so while I don't mind giving him some team utility that shouldn't require the sacrifice of damage/survival. Ash needs tweaked, not neutron bombed then built from the ground up again.