Shouldn't Pre-Corpus Valkyr Be "healed" Valkyr?

[Morec0]

....

 

so much discussion about the name of a thing as simple as a skin lol.

 

 

Consider it a "Neo-Valkyr" or "Valkyr-Refit" even *if* DE name that skin "pre-corpus-Valkyr" and call it a day :D

 

Well these last few comments have been less about that and more about the general Tenno-Warframe relationship.

[Kasseopea]

Whatever physical issues the pilot may have, the Warframe solves it. That's all we need to know until DE want to give us more information, the "how" will come later.

 

As I quoted from Steve above "Your Tenno rather than your Ember", the suit is a a hyper-advanced techno-organic, living death machine, with a name, but it's still a suit. Your Tenno is named after your account name (NPC's use that name) and Ember/Valkyr /etc is the name of the Warframe (NPC's point out which Warframe you're using as well)

 

And yes, any Tenno wearing a Valkyr frame _does_ need to get into the right mindset to funnel Void energy appropriately.... that's what affinity ranks are all about, being able to work in simpatico with the needs of the Warframe, like a Zen warrior monk, be one with the weapon. Or... if you you prefer, a bit like the 40K Eldar aspect warriors.

 

Literally "affinity": "inherent likeness or agreement; close resemblance or connection."

 

Ever heard of Epicurus and his question of evil?

 

If the suits are sentient and tenno are inhabitants - How do we control them?

If the suits are non-sentient and tenno are in control - How did Valkyr's torture affect her suit and the abilities a Tenno gets when entering it?

If we are capable of affecting out suits to make them aquire new abilities - Why are our abilities staying the same?

If mods are our way to change the suits, how are mods applying to weapons like Karak, which are pure mechanical?

 

Basically, no matter how you look at it - either Warframes are just suits - and then it doesn't matter for its wearer what has happened to someone else who wore a COPY of it once (Valkyr) or suits and Tenno are bound, and then each and every Warframe is actually a singular person.

 

I mean, it could be that Warframes are like 50 meters tall and everything just seems normal-sized. In truth Corpus are giants, Grineer modded themselves and the Warframes have enough place to fit a human or ten, no matter what shape they are.

 

Besides - Limbo didn't die, he just got ripped apart through while mingling with time. "Ripped apart" when talking about time travel may very well be a rather 4-dimensional matter than a 3-dimensional, thus we piece Limbo together from different times, not places.

 

How did Mirage die? She was overwhelmed while fighting alone. Lotus refers to her with sorrow and guilt, as she couldn't save her. One of the last transmissions is "Tenno, the last piece of her... of Mirage... has been recovered." - Does this sound like a regular soldier you have like 500 more back at the base? No, we recover her and rebuild - someone unique, someone who meant a lot. Lotus as well says: [...]I'm trying to surge the revive system but I can't, I'm too far away.[...]

We get her pieces back, put them together and revive her with Lotus' help.

 

After all - we can die in missions and then just get thrown back to our ship. The Tenno are at that point - no matter what they truly are - more or less immortal. Kind of like Wolverine minus the healing factor - put all pieces back together, get the juice flowing and they will awake.

 

At least that's my opinion. And if you want recite Vor The Bigmouth - he also states "Behold, they cut me down but still, I speak. I am energy and I cannot be destroyed!". This would suggest that he points out a difference rather than something common, as most of the time he is busy stroking his own ego, while crawling at 33% speed through a Snow Globe and dying about 2 seconds later.

 

 

 

....

 

so much discussion about the name of a thing as simple as a skin lol.

 

 

Consider it a "Neo-Valkyr" or "Valkyr-Refit" even *if* DE name that skin "pre-corpus-Valkyr" and call it a day :D

 

Well, someone has to care about the lore. If DE doesn't, the community will. *Sees a warning about bashing the poor, poor DE incoming*

Edited July 16, 2015 by Kasseopea

[Morec0]

Ever heard of Epicurus and his question of evil?

 

If the suits are sentient and tenno are inhabitants - How do we control them?

If the suits are non-sentient and tenno are in control - How did Valkyr's torture affect her suit and the abilities a Tenno gets when entering it?

If we are capable of affecting out suits to make them aquire new abilities - Why are our abilities staying the same?

If mods are our way to change the suits, how are mods applying to weapons like Karak, which are pure mechanical?

 

Basically, no matter how you look at it - either Warframes are just suits - and then it doesn't matter for its wearer what has happened to someone else who wore a COPY of it once (Valkyr) or suits and Tenno are bound, and then each and every Warframe is actually a singular person.

 

I mean, it could be that Warframes are like 50 meters tall and everything just seems normal-sized. In truth Corpus are giants, Grineer modded themselves and the Warframes have enough place to fit a human or ten, no matter what shape they are.

 

Besides - Limbo didn't die, he just got ripped apart through while mingling with time. "Ripped apart" when talking about time travel may very well be a rather 4-dimensional matter than a 3-dimensional, thus we piece Limbo together from different times, not places.

 

How did Mirage die? She was overwhelmed while fighting alone. Lotus refers to her with sorrow and guilt, as she couldn't save her. One of the last transmissions is "Tenno, the last piece of her... of Mirage... has been recovered." - Does this sound like a regular soldier you have like 500 more back at the base? No, we recover her and rebuild - someone unique, someone who meant a lot. Lotus as well says: [...]I'm trying to surge the revive system but I can't, I'm too far away.[...]

We get her pieces back, put them together and revive her with Lotus' help.

 

After all - we can die in missions and then just get thrown back to our ship. The Tenno are at that point - no matter what they truly are - more or less immortal. Kind of like Wolverine minus the healing factor - put all pieces back together, get the juice flowing and they will awake.

 

At least that's my opinion. And if you want recite Vor The Bigmouth - he also states "Behold, they cut me down but still, I speak. I am energy and I cannot be destroyed!". This would suggest that he points out a difference rather than something common, as most of the time he is busy stroking his own ego, while crawling at 33% speed through a Snow Globe and dying about 2 seconds later.

 

There's caring about the lore and then trying to write you're own while ignoring what is already set. That's what you're doing - at least in regards to this latest topic.

 

To think of the suit as completely sentient isn't what we're saying. They're living, they seemingly have personality, but they have no ability to act on their own, they have no agency to speak of - not since they were made into what they were. We can control them because we have that agency, but the bits of the frame's personality it has feed back into the Tenno wearer.

 

And we can't have our Warframes acquire new abilities. They have what they have. We simply become more inline with them - gaining affinity for them - and through that we learn how to use their powers better, hence why they level up.

 

Mods are upgrades. You can upgrade pretty much everything if you have the right materials - i.e., mods.

 

Limbo isn't a time frame. He's a Rift frame - the Rift being a place between the Void and reality that the Limbo frame can manipulate. I have no idea where you're pulling the ability he's got power over time from. The quote from the end of that quest is "Well, perhaps when you occupy this Warframe you will use more... caution." Said to US, the Operator, the player character, not to someone else. WE use that Warframe, not some revived Limbo Tenno.

 

How do you rebuild a person in the foundry? Aside from technocyte flesh the foundry can't clone people, that's confirmed lore as well as given to us by the Ask a Cephalon. Besides there's a quote you're neglecting from the Mirage Codex: Lotus says ".. I hear her comforting me, telling me not to despair as the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her, forever." Followed by "Tenno, that was the last of the imprints. Forge this Warframe in honor of these memories." Not "revive this Tenno", "forge this Warframe in honor of these memories" - rebuild Mirage to honor the Tenno who Lotus lost and whose final moments we found.

 

And we KNOW the Tenno are immortal, Teshin tells us that we can survive death (though if we do so by the Oro he mentions is unclear as of yet). But we CAN die, Hidden Messages shows us that, and so does Lotus comment during the Alad V assassination "Alad V's newest prototype is a monstrosity forged from the bodies of our fallen Tenno, we cannot allow Zanuka to go into full production. Destroy Alad V and his horrid 'pet'." and Tenno CAN be separated from their Warframes - i.e. the Mutalist Mesa who is refered to as "not a Tenno... a Warframe being piloted by Infested flesh" - so they aren't permanently bound either.

 

As for Vor's statement, he's something, I'd say he's the same kind of Oro-infused creature as the Sentients supposedly are, but know little about what truly happened to him.

 

And, I'm sorry, but your opinion IS wrong and contradicted by the lore we have.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Morec0

[hammerheathen]

Her entire theme after she was tortured is still that of a cat. And she's a berserker. Huh.

 

I believe DE has said something on this topic before. I'll need to dig around for it, but it was in response to a question about Valkyr Prime. Something along the lines of "who said she wasn't a berserker before?"

I honestly would have gone with a wolverine or badger as in the animal kingdom they are the berserkes, (honey badgers will attack and chase away Rhino's).

 

Cats however are more popular, thus we have the kitty with claws theme going. Not my preference, but Valkyr is still awesome

[Kasseopea]

There's caring about the lore and then trying to write you're own while ignoring what is already set. That's what you're doing - at least in regards to this latest topic.

 

To think of the suit as completely sentient isn't what we're saying. They're living, they seemingly have personality, but they have no ability to act on their own, they have no agency to speak of - not since they were made into what they were. We can control them because we have that agency, but the bits of the frame's personality it has feed back into the Tenno wearer.

 

And we can't have our Warframes acquire new abilities. They have what they have. We simply become more inline with them - gaining affinity for them - and through that we learn how to use their powers better, hence why they level up.

 

Mods are upgrades. You can upgrade pretty much everything if you have the right materials - i.e., mods.

 

Limbo isn't a time frame. He's a Rift frame - the Rift being a place between the Void and reality that the Limbo frame can manipulate. I have no idea where you're pulling the ability he's got power over time from. The quote from the end of that quest is "Well, perhaps when you occupy this Warframe you will use more... caution." Said to US, the Operator, the player character, not to someone else. WE use that Warframe, not some revived Limbo Tenno.

 

How do you rebuild a person in the foundry? Aside from technocyte flesh the foundry can't clone people, that's confirmed lore as well as given to us by the Ask a Cephalon. Besides there's a quote you're neglecting from the Mirage Codex: Lotus says ".. I hear her comforting me, telling me not to despair as the Warframe disintegrates and I lose her, forever." Followed by "Tenno, that was the last of the imprints. Forge this Warframe in honor of these memories." Not "revive this Tenno", "forge this Warframe in honor of these memories" - rebuild Mirage to honor the Tenno who Lotus lost and whose final moments we found.

 

And we KNOW the Tenno are immortal, Teshin tells us that we can survive death (though if we do so by the Oro he mentions is unclear as of yet). But we CAN die, Hidden Messages shows us that, and so does Lotus comment during the Alad V assassination "Alad V's newest prototype is a monstrosity forged from the bodies of our fallen Tenno, we cannot allow Zanuka to go into full production. Destroy Alad V and his horrid 'pet'." and Tenno CAN be separated from their Warframes - i.e. the Mutalist Mesa who is refered to as "not a Tenno... a Warframe being piloted by Infested flesh" - so they aren't permanently bound either.

 

As for Vor's statement, he's something, I'd say he's the same kind of Oro-infused creature as the Sentients supposedly are, but know little about what truly happened to him.

 

And, I'm sorry, but your opinion IS wrong and contradicted by the lore we have.

 

So, the suits have no feelings or thoughts, meaning they also cannot be tortured, because that would require having feelings. We - the Tenno - cannot change the suits by any means, they are what they are. This means that it wouldn't matter what happened to Valkyr, because her suit cannot change according to her pain and rage, but the suit cannot feel pain and rage in the first place. Cmon, you gonna tell me you dont see the paradoxon in here?

 

If Tenno are immortal, how can they die? What, are we in an anime "I will kill you if you die" or "People die if they are killed" ?

You can't be half-immortal.

 

Besides, what Lotus says are her flashbacks - what she thought at that point. And at that point she thought that Mirage is lost forever and was too far away. We reach her in the end however and recover her. One could argue Valkyr's blueprints were laying around at Alad V, but Mirage blueprints? It's not like Tenno drop them on death.

 

And yeah, she was disintegrated - how are we finding ANYTHING of her then? Why do we have to find those parts at all? Surely Mirage Nr.1239 and Nr.5837 could have shared their secrets, if they are not unique, right? Or were all Mirage killed at once in one spot?

 

Mesa being piloted by technocyte is just technocyte infecting and taking over, it doesnt forcefully mean that the tenno was separated.

 

 

Sorry, but so many things don't add up, its not even funny anymore. To complete the plot holes we would need 5 times more information than we have. Too many nebulous and contradicting facts. Gameplay and story collide heavily in Warframe and it messes things up.

 

Oh - and what Lotus says is "Forge this Warframe in honor of these memories." - in honor of the sacrifice and her being lost for so long, not in honor of her being dead, otherwise she would have said "In honor of Mirage". Either she was an expendable soldier - and then Lotus couldn't care for her, because she would go crazy if she cared for every single one of those who die every day THIS much (it sounded like some serious PTSD-flashback she went through there), or she was unique in shape, abilities and personality, and then it was the suit as well as the Tenno - a unity - Mirage.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Kasseopea

[Morec0]

So, the suits have no feelings or thoughts, meaning they also cannot be tortured, because that would require having feelings. We - the Tenno - cannot change the suits by any means, they are what they are. This means that it wouldn't matter what happened to Valkyr, because her suit cannot change according to her pain and rage, but the suit cannot feel pain and rage in the first place. Cmon, you gonna tell me you dont see the paradoxon in here?

 

If Tenno are immortal, how can they die? What, are we in an anime "I will kill you if you die" or "People die if they are killed" ?

You can't be half-immortal.

 

Besides, what Lotus says are her flashbacks - what she thought at that point. And at that point she thought that Mirage is lost forever and was too far away. We reach her in the end however and recover her. One could argue Valkyr's blueprints were laying around at Alad V, but Mirage blueprints? It's not like Tenno drop them on death.

 

And yeah, she was disintegrated - how are we finding ANYTHING of her then? Why do we have to find those parts at all? Surely Mirage Nr.1239 and Nr.5837 could have shared their secrets, if they are not unique, right? Or were all Mirage killed at once in one spot?

 

Mesa being piloted by technocyte is just technocyte infecting and taking over, it doesnt forcefully mean that the tenno was separated.

 

 

Sorry, but so many things don't add up, its not even funny anymore. To complete the plot holes we would need 5 times more information than we have. Too many nebulous and contradicting facts. Gameplay and story collide heavily in Warframe and it messes things up.

 

Oh - and what Lotus says is "Forge this Warframe in honor of these memories." - in honor of the sacrifice and her being lost for so long, not in honor of her being dead, otherwise she would have said "In honor of Mirage". Either she was an expendable soldier - and then Lotus couldn't care for her, because she would go crazy if she cared for every single one of those who die every day THIS much (it sounded like some serious PTSD-flashback she went through there), or she was unique in shape, abilities and personality, and then it was the suit as well as the Tenno - a unity - Mirage.

 

They DO have feelings, they can feel what happens to them, they just can't act on anything of their own will. Thing of it as a person with mental disabilities - they can feel pain, they'll learn to react to the pain, but left to their own devices and they wont really do much. They're low-functioning animals, creatures that don't have any instincts to drive them. And while it CAN change, I don't think the abilities EVER changed in their functionality (i.e. she went from being a healer to a berserker), only the look of them and the emotions that fuel them.

 

You CAN be "half immortal", even Teshin describes the Sentients as being able to be "struck down, incapacitated, dismantled, but they rise anew" UNLESS you destroy their Oro. Without it, they perish. Hell, even in general fiction you have beings that can live forever, but if they're killed by specific means they will die - vampires come particularly to mind, steak through the heart? That kills the otherwise immortal vampires pretty damn fast. Even gods can be killed off - that was a huge area of concern for Zeus in Greek/Roman mythology.

 

Mirage's blueprints were recovered from the Void Shadow Tenno leave behind where they travel. The same thing happened with Limbo. Those memories contain enough knowledge of the Warframe blueprints - the SAME blueprints you recover - that we're able to replicate parts of the Warframe, and eventually the whole thing. But, again, we never get the Tenno - there's no talk from Ordis after The Limbo Theorem about the Limbo Tenno coming back, after all, it's, again "Well, perhaps when you occupy this frame, you will use more... caution."

 

Whatever happened to other Mirage users, they weren't able to share the know-how of how to build their frames. A lot of knowledge that once existed was lost when the Orokin Empire fell, Simaris himself tells us this, and a lot of that knowledge could include Warframes. Hence why we have to take it back from those who dig it up before we can find it (the bosses).

 

You COMPLETELY ignore the quote FROM THE LOTUS HERSELF DURING THAT QUEST: "That's not a Tenno. That's a hollow Warframe being puppeted by Infested flesh. Put it out of its misery." Even Alad V describes his creation as going to be "my first Mutalist Warframe". Not Infested Tenno - Mutalist (Infested) WARFRAME. There was NO Tenno in it.

 

Things aren't lining up for you because you're choosing to ignore what we are told. We are TOLD we play as a single Tenno that switches between frames. While a lot of what I'm saying IS theory, THAT much IS fact. Mono-Tenno IS fact, and from that multiple Warframes are also likely fact. Poly-Tenno theory just doesn't hold up any more. Sorry, but you are PROVABLY wrong here.

 

I don't get where you're saying Lotus didn't or couldn't care for that Mirage, because she was OBVIOUSLY torn up even back then by what happened to her - as you yourself say. She cares enough for us to be deeply worried about us during the tutorial, and even when the Grustrag Three attack her first instinct isn't "prepare to fight" it's "get to extraction, don't risk fighting." NONE OF WHICH ignore the fact that she was lost "forever", else don't you think Lotus would have made a COMMENT about "thank you, Tenno, for returning Mirage to life" or something?

[Kasseopea]

They DO have feelings, they can feel what happens to them, they just can't act on anything of their own will. Thing of it as a person with mental disabilities - they can feel pain, they'll learn to react to the pain, but left to their own devices and they wont really do much. They're low-functioning animals, creatures that don't have any instincts to drive them. And while it CAN change, I don't think the abilities EVER changed in their functionality (i.e. she went from being a healer to a berserker), only the look of them and the emotions that fuel them.

 

You CAN be "half immortal", even Teshin describes the Sentients as being able to be "struck down, incapacitated, dismantled, but they rise anew" UNLESS you destroy their Oro. Without it, they perish. Hell, even in general fiction you have beings that can live forever, but if they're killed by specific means they will die - vampires come particularly to mind, steak through the heart? That kills the otherwise immortal vampires pretty damn fast. Even gods can be killed off - that was a huge area of concern for Zeus in Greek/Roman mythology.

 

Mirage's blueprints were recovered from the Void Shadow Tenno leave behind where they travel. The same thing happened with Limbo. Those memories contain enough knowledge of the Warframe blueprints - the SAME blueprints you recover - that we're able to replicate parts of the Warframe, and eventually the whole thing. But, again, we never get the Tenno - there's no talk from Ordis after The Limbo Theorem about the Limbo Tenno coming back, after all, it's, again "Well, perhaps when you occupy this frame, you will use more... caution."

 

Whatever happened to other Mirage users, they weren't able to share the know-how of how to build their frames. A lot of knowledge that once existed was lost when the Orokin Empire fell, Simaris himself tells us this, and a lot of that knowledge could include Warframes. Hence why we have to take it back from those who dig it up before we can find it (the bosses).

 

You COMPLETELY ignore the quote FROM THE LOTUS HERSELF DURING THAT QUEST: "That's not a Tenno. That's a hollow Warframe being puppeted by Infested flesh. Put it out of its misery." Even Alad V describes his creation as going to be "my first Mutalist Warframe". Not Infested Tenno - Mutalist (Infested) WARFRAME. There was NO Tenno in it.

 

Things aren't lining up for you because you're choosing to ignore what we are told. We are TOLD we play as a single Tenno that switches between frames. While a lot of what I'm saying IS theory, THAT much IS fact. Mono-Tenno IS fact, and from that multiple Warframes are also likely fact. Poly-Tenno theory just doesn't hold up any more. Sorry, but you are PROVABLY wrong here.

 

I don't get where you're saying Lotus didn't or couldn't care for that Mirage, because she was OBVIOUSLY torn up even back then by what happened to her - as you yourself say. She cares enough for us to be deeply worried about us during the tutorial, and even when the Grustrag Three attack her first instinct isn't "prepare to fight" it's "get to extraction, don't risk fighting." NONE OF WHICH ignore the fact that she was lost "forever", else don't you think Lotus would have made a COMMENT about "thank you, Tenno, for returning Mirage to life" or something?

 

The thing Lotus says about the infested Mesa can be taken literally, sure, or figuratives. Its an expression of her, just as Zombies (which infested more or less are + hive intellect) are called hollow husks. Or have you never seen a Zombie movie where they screen "This is not XY anymore, it is just a thing driven by lust for flesh"

 

And if there is a way to kill something, it is not immortal anymore - just hard to kill. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/immortal - Meaning 1#: Not susceptible to death, living forever, never dying.

 

Yes, Infested Alad says it will be his Warframe, because the Warframe is the part without personality of the Tenno. Physically the Tenno can be still inside, his / her mind not. Thus, there is no Tenno inside - just a corpse.

 

Regarding Lotus - i said that if Warframes & Tenno were mass-production, Lotus wouldn't be attached this much to a single Mirage, if it was just one of the many. This contradicts the fact, that we are replaceable in one instance and in an another we see an Ex cut up and Zanuka made out of Warframe parts and Alad wants to make it mass production, meaning he would need countless Warframes.

 

And there is the fact, that a Tenno cannot be lost forever in any way possible. When we do sabotage void missions, we jump through a portal, which collapses permanently after a while. If we were to be stranded there, we would be too far away to be returned, thus suffering the same fate as Mirage. We however do not and can continue playing.

[Morec0]

The thing Lotus says about the infested Mesa can be taken literally, sure, or figuratives. Its an expression of her, just as Zombies (which infested more or less are + hive intellect) are called hollow husks. Or have you never seen a Zombie movie where they screen "This is not XY anymore, it is just a thing driven by lust for flesh"

 

And if there is a way to kill something, it is not immortal anymore - just hard to kill. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/immortal - Meaning 1#: Not susceptible to death, living forever, never dying.

 

Yes, Infested Alad says it will be his Warframe, because the Warframe is the part without personality of the Tenno. Physically the Tenno can be still inside, his / her mind not. Thus, there is no Tenno inside - just a corpse.

 

Regarding Lotus - i said that if Warframes & Tenno were mass-production, Lotus wouldn't be attached this much to a single Mirage, if it was just one of the many. This contradicts the fact, that we are replaceable in one instance and in an another we see an Ex cut up and Zanuka made out of Warframe parts and Alad wants to make it mass production, meaning he would need countless Warframes.

 

And there is the fact, that a Tenno cannot be lost forever in any way possible. When we do sabotage void missions, we jump through a portal, which collapses permanently after a while. If we were to be stranded there, we would be too far away to be returned, thus suffering the same fate as Mirage. We however do not and can continue playing.

 

And yet we would be able to be revived on either side of said portal to rejoin if we do?

 

And don't think I haven't notice how you utterly ignore every time I bring up the Limbo theorem statement.

 

But I give up, I'm not going to waste my time arguing. If you want to ignore the lore we're given in favor of your own headcanon of the Poly-Tenno theory, go right ahead, just don't try and tell others it's objectively true when the lore says it's not.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Morec0

[robertgk2017]

So valkyr prime? Different powers. No corpus junk. I'll take it

Is valkyr vandal a valkyr that went through more torture? Same powers. More corpus junk than regular. I'll take that to

[SilentMobius]

Ever heard of Epicurus and his question of evil?

 

If the suits are sentient and tenno are inhabitants - How do we control them?

If the suits are non-sentient and tenno are in control - How did Valkyr's torture affect her suit and the abilities a Tenno gets when entering it?

If we are capable of affecting out suits to make them aquire new abilities - Why are our abilities staying the same?

If mods are our way to change the suits, how are mods applying to weapons like Karak, which are pure mechanical?

 

Basically, no matter how you look at it - either Warframes are just suits - and then it doesn't matter for its wearer what has happened to someone else who wore a COPY of it once (Valkyr) or suits and Tenno are bound, and then each and every Warframe is actually a singular person.

 

You are completely misusing Epicurus here. The question of Evil related to the moral responsibility for actions by sapient beings. Not, in any way, conveyance of emotions to non-sentient living creatures.

 

We said "alive" Which extends outside of "sentient" including plants and animals.

 

Animals can be altered by the rage of others, If you treat an animal poorly they can become violent themselves, such that only a very forceful person can control them (There are other ways this can turn out, but the outcome I'm pursuing is certainly a valid one)

 

Hence we have a chain of events here:

 

Angry person, transmits anger and fear to an animal via empathy and physical trauma, animal changes it's behavior as a result. Any use of that animal has to bear in mind the altered state of the animal, and may require unique handling by the operator.

 

Warframes could well be similar, alive but not sapient, with feelings but not sentient. That way the operators emotional state is conveyed to the suit via the void energies they share.

 

The either/or you posit is not axiomatic as there are non-sentient creatures in the real world that can be modified by human emotions, thus the hypothesis is invalidated.

[SilentMobius]

So valkyr prime? Different powers. No corpus junk. I'll take it

Is valkyr vandal a valkyr that went through more torture? Same powers. More corpus junk than regular. I'll take that to

 

No, we currently have no suggestion that any version of Valkyr has any different powers at all in any way save possibly cosmetic. It's possible but unlikely

 

Neither is there any indication of Valkyr Prime right now.

 

The pre-corpus skin is not a Prime, but it has no "Corpus Junk", The fact it is a skin and that the concept art has energy claws suggests no notable change in powers.

 

There has never been any mention _ever_ of a Vandal Warframe.

[Kasseopea]

You are completely misusing Epicurus here. The question of Evil related to the moral responsibility for actions by sapient beings. Not, in any way, conveyance of emotions to non-sentient living creatures.

 

We said "alive" Which extends outside of "sentient" including plants and animals.

 

Animals can be altered by the rage of others, If you treat an animal poorly they can become violent themselves, such that only a very forceful person can control them (There are other ways this can turn out, but the outcome I'm pursuing is certainly a valid one)

 

Hence we have a chain of events here:

 

Angry person, transmits anger and fear to an animal via empathy and physical trauma, animal changes it's behavior as a result. Any use of that animal has to bear in mind the altered state of the animal, and may require unique handling by the operator.

 

Warframes could well be similar, alive but not sapient, with feelings but not sentient. That way the operators emotional state is conveyed to the suit via the void energies they share.

 

The either/or you posit is not axiomatic as there are non-sentient creatures in the real world that can be modified by human emotions, thus the hypothesis is invalidated.

 

His question of evil points out a paradoxon. Since the church is dealing in absolutes *cough* sith *cough*, he points out why it would not work. Same here - people are taking hints as absolute explanations and im explaining why it wouldnt work this way. (But yeah, im much dumber than Epicurus, so i couldnt copy his elegance in expression^^). The information we get is for the most part obscure and ambiguous. It could mean one thing, but most of the time allows LOTS of room for interpretation. (Just look at Ember Prime lore - its like a mortar - covers a lot up, but unprecise. Too many things and actors can be too many factions, things and persons at the same time, depending on the point of view)

 

And the thing would still be - we then can change the way a Warframe operates through our emotions, right? As with the immortal / not immortal question there is no middle way. You either can affect your Warframe with strong emotions or you cannot. If we can - our Warframes ought to change due to our feelings. I.e. My Frost should have developed an AoE silence, so bosses shut the f*** up and i dont have to listen to them. (Lotus including: "A heavy unit approaches" - yeah, thanks for the warning, i wouldn't have known, in a t4 survival at minute 60. Thought they had none left)

 

Also, i dont think sentient means what you think it means. Name me one thing that has feelings - rage, love, passion, joy, sadness - but is not sentient. Because those are emotions we are talking about, not simply hunger or wish for reproduction, those are instincts. Valkyr however is based upon dispair and vengeance - feelings that require complex thinking. You cannot make a sea-star vengeful or a pollyp dispaired.

 

 

And yet we would be able to be revived on either side of said portal to rejoin if we do?

 

And don't think I haven't notice how you utterly ignore every time I bring up the Limbo theorem statement.

 

But I give up, I'm not going to waste my time arguing. If you want to ignore the lore we're given in favor of your own headcanon of the Poly-Tenno theory, go right ahead, just don't try and tell others it's objectively true when the lore says it's not.

 

Im not exactly ignoring it, i just dont have anything to say about it. It in itself is a theorem.

It also causes more questions than it answers and collides gameplay & lore once more. As a player its logical that a boss can be farmed, but intime we are killing the same persons over and over again - not immoratal Tenno - normal persons and they drop warframe blueprints. This means that our enemies have every single Warframe already as a blueprint.

 

Basically this means that all warframes aside our first one are dead and we are piecing them together, is that it? But ofc it cannot be, because there are other players, which also have all those warframes. So why aren't they simply sharing them? I mean, we all are fellow Tenno, a brotherhood, an order of warriors, comrades - why not share this knowledge? Because gameplay.

 

Warframe will always be full of plot-holes, because gameplay does not represent it's story. Compare it to Bloodborne i.e. - you respawn, because your protagonist is actually dreaming and he cannot "die", because his body is somewhere else. He can go crazy, sure, or give up - also possible, but not die. Gameplay and lore are hand in hand, no question is ever left open.

 

Don't get me wrong - i love Warframe, especially Frost and his Nymbus-Aurora-Helmet of badassary. Thing is - whenever you follow a line of plot in Warframe, it splits or ends in a wall or turns into a completely different line mid-way.

 

As for Mirage - she clearly has a personal meaning to Lotus and is adressed by this name - Tenno AND Warframe as one. Lotus doesn't say "Warframe Mirage and her Tenno bla bla" or "The Tenno bla bla" - she always adresses her as Mirage. This must mean that she is or was unique. Same for Limbo - Ordis adresses HIM as a genius, not THEM. Not Limbos - Limbo. Meaning he is / was also unique. If those two were unique, all Warframe are unique, but this once again collides with the other information DE are giving us, like Mass Production of Zanuka with Warframe parts.

 

And just as i "ignored" your Limbo theorem, you ignore all the things i point out. There are dozens of those loose ends and colliding information, whether you like it or not. This is not head-cannon, its comparing facts we were given.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Kasseopea

[Morec0]

<snip>

 

It's a difference in our approaches that I think is going on here.

 

I'm taking what we know, what we're told - Limbo Theorem, we switch between the Warframes, in particular - and build out from that. Using my theories to connect what is seemingly different through logical means.

 

You look at things that don't line up and immediately say "this is wrong, DE doesn't care." Looking at Limbo Theorem as if it wasn't something that was from an in-game source but rather said by DE during a Devstream.

 

It's what I call the "Intricacies vs. Inconsistencies" debate. Do we look deeper into things that don't seem immediately interconnected to find a reason, or do we take everything at just face value and complain when face value doesn't line up 100%?

 

As to what you said to Silent Mobius, you're confusing the idea that the Warframes abilities can be altered by certain extremes with the ideas that the Warframe's abilities ARE BASED on their emotions. What we're saying is the ABILITIES OF that frame, that are unique to that frame, can be ALTERED, while still being functionally the same, because of certain states and whatnot; whereas you seem to be thinking "Banshee has these abilities BECAUSE she acts like this".

 

Also, "despair" and "vengeance" are never mentioned in regards to Valkyr. While anger, i.e. rage, is. Anger isn't something that requires complex thinking, and animals can display it very easily.

 

Lotus only ever calls Mirage by Mirage right at the end. To me, when I hear that final line, I hear "This is the last piece of her... no, of Mirage", the "no" being indicated by the pause she takes. As if she has to back up her own thoughts and remember that she DID lose her, despite what she would want.

 

I'd also like to say that you're statement "There are A LOT of Tenno, so why would she care if she lost some" is flawed deeply. My Grandmother had a lot of children, that doesn't mean she wont care if one died because "she has more" - a prevailing theme in this game seems to be "Lotus as mother"; DE jokes about her being our "Space Mom" a bit, but we have the metal wombs of the Warframe/Cryopods, the sheer worry with which Lotus handles the Ascaris in you during the tutorial, and even Vor talking about our relationship to the Lotus as if she WAS our mother "... will purge your doting mother and bring you home." All of these practically drip with the motherhood theme in regards to her character, and she reflects that with how she talks about us - heck, remember when she jumps on Maroo when she starts poking fun at us in Stolen Dreams? Surely you've had a time when your mother did something similar.

 

Is she ACTUALLY our biological mother? HIGHLY unlikely, but as any adoptee parent could tell you it doesn't matter if we share blood or not.

 

I DO want to backup and apologize for the previous outburst. It was late, I was tired.

 

EDIT: On farming the bosses for BPs, though, I see it as I see farming any kind of loot from bosses in an MMO; that boss can only, lore-wise, fight and die once, but it may take a few runs to get the drop you're looking for.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Morec0

[SilentMobius]

Also, i dont think sentient means what you think it means. Name me one thing that has feelings - rage, love, passion, joy, sadness - but is not sentient. Because those are emotions we are talking about, not simply hunger or wish for reproduction, those are instincts. Valkyr however is based upon dispair and vengeance - feelings that require complex thinking. You cannot make a sea-star vengeful or a pollyp dispaired.

 

Many animals almost all mammals, They display many emotions but are not, by current definition, sentient: dogs, cats, horses, etc exhibit rage, shame, dominance, subservience, joy, sadness... love is debatable but that's more to do with English overloading the term.

 

A quick summary for you:

 

Sapient: Ability to reason, (the inherent quality of person-ness, hence "Homo Sapiens")

Sentient: Sapient + feelings or emotions

 

I am _very_ exacting in my use of these terms, I'm more of the opinion that you are the one failing to use them accurately.

 

And the thing would still be - we then can change the way a Warframe operates through our emotions, right? As with the immortal / not immortal question there is no middle way. You either can affect your Warframe with strong emotions or you cannot. If we can - our Warframes ought to change due to our feelings. I.e. My Frost should have developed an AoE silence, so bosses shut the f*** up and i dont have to listen to them. (Lotus including: "A heavy unit approaches" - yeah, thanks for the warning, i wouldn't have known, in a t4 survival at minute 60. Thought they had none left)

 

Composition fallacy I'm afraid.

 

The Statement: Some Tenno with some sufficiently strong emotions can alter the composition of a Warframe in some manner

 

Does not prove or imply: Any Tenno can use any emotion to modify a Warfrme in any way.

 

You are taking a statement about a subset and erroneously applying it to the whole then creating a false axiom from it.

 

 It could mean one thing, but most of the time allows LOTS of room for interpretation.

 

And yet we _do_ have explicit statement that have minimal (if any) other form of interpretation. For example Ordis's line at the end of the the Limbo quest, It is undeniable that Ordis refers to the player Tenno changing Warframe.

 

Operator, I think I know why we're finding Limbo parts scattered throughout the system. His final rift walk was a miscal... disaster. Well, perhaps when you occupy this frame, you will use more... caution.

 

It is undeniable that the previous pilot of Mirage is dead and the player Tenno is to wear the warframe in memory of the last Tenno to wear the Warframe.

 

Tenno, the last piece of her... of Mirage... has been recovered.

Tenno, that was the last of the imprints. Forge this Warframe in honor of these memories.

When will the operator be adding this Warframe to the Arsenal?

 

These are the hooks on which we can hand the more vague element to approximate a whole cloth.

Edited July 16, 2015 by SilentMobius

[Kasseopea]

It's a difference in our approaches that I think is going on here.

 

I'm taking what we know, what we're told - Limbo Theorem, we switch between the Warframes, in particular - and build out from that. Using my theories to connect what is seemingly different through logical means.

 

You look at things that don't line up and immediately say "this is wrong, DE doesn't care." Looking at Limbo Theorem as if it wasn't something that was from an in-game source but rather said by DE during a Devstream.

 

It's what I call the "Intricacies vs. Inconsistencies" debate. Do we look deeper into things that don't seem immediately interconnected to find a reason, or do we take everything at just face value and complain when face value doesn't line up 100%?

 

As to what you said to Silent Mobius, you're confusing the idea that the Warframes abilities can be altered by certain extremes with the ideas that the Warframe's abilities ARE BASED on their emotions. What we're saying is the ABILITIES OF that frame, that are unique to that frame, can be ALTERED, while still being functionally the same, because of certain states and whatnot; whereas you seem to be thinking "Banshee has these abilities BECAUSE she acts like this".

 

Also, "despair" and "vengeance" are never mentioned in regards to Valkyr. While anger, i.e. rage, is. Anger isn't something that requires complex thinking, and animals can display it very easily.

 

Lotus only ever calls Mirage by Mirage right at the end. To me, when I hear that final line, I hear "This is the last piece of her... no, of Mirage", the "no" being indicated by the pause she takes. As if she has to back up her own thoughts and remember that she DID lose her, despite what she would want.

 

Hmm, yeah, you are right on the Vengeance part. Read through her stuff and it is actually only rage - even "feral rage", pointing out its animalistic nature.

 

Im not saying the abilities are based on them, but if they can be altered, why are we not able to alter them? I for one wish serenity and peace for my Valkyr, yet she keeps screaming in pain. Point is - on the meta level it is clear that it would be too much work to allow every player to modify their Warframes in an additional direction to the mods, but ingame it stays a question mark. If we are the Tenno (singular) with a certain agenda, all of our Warframes should be slowly become closer to each other ability-wise, since we are the same Person. Ofc Frost would still use Ice and Ember would be still setting things ablaze.

 

Limbo is being adressed as a singular person, Mirage is as well. This is a given, be it Ordis' nerdgasming or Lotus' repentance. This means, that at least at some point they had to be unique. Ofc gameplay can't do that, because only one player would have a Mirage or a Limbo then. This is why i said that it is like in any MMORPG - we all are the chosen one, the most important one, the pioneer. Thus Warframes are unique and not unique at the same time. It is a contradiction you cannot explain with any logic, because there is none to it in the first place. It is the lore taking a hit for the gameplay, just as bosses being respawn or us being able to fly in outer space with Archwings, but loosing health in Survival missions.

 

I think Lotus stopping before calling her Mirage, is because the person who was so close to Lotus had a name. Be it Tali Zora or Alex, it was probably a personal name without a functionality. Lotus gives her one - Mirage.

 

 

Many animals almost all mammals, They display many emotions but are not, by current definition, sentient: dogs, cats, horses, etc exhibit rage, shame, dominance, subservience, joy, sadness... love is debatable but that's more to do with English overloading the term.

 

A quick summary for you:

 

Sapient: Ability to reason, (the inherent quality of person-ness, hence "Homo Sapiens")

Sentient: Sapient + feelings or emotions

 

I am _very_ exacting in my use of these terms, I'm more of the opinion that you are the one failing to use them accurately.

 

 

 

Composition fallacy I'm afraid.

 

The Statement: Some Tenno with some sufficiently strong emotions can alter the composition of a Warframe in some manner

 

Does not prove or imply: Any Tenno can use any emotion to modify a Warfrme in any way.

 

You are taking a statement about a subset and erroneously applying it to the whole then creating a false axiom from it.

 

 

 

And yet we _do_ have explicit statement that have minimal (if any) other form of interpretation. For example Ordis's line at the end of the the Limbo quest, It is undeniable that Ordis refers to the player Tenno changing Warframe.

 

 

It is undeniable that the previous pilot of Mirage is dead and the player Tenno is to wear the warframe in memory of the last Tenno to wear the Warframe.

 

 

These are the hooks on which we can hand the more vague element to approximate a whole cloth.

 

 

Sorry, it is a little bit difficult to take you seriously when you begin to claim that animals have no deeper emotions. A sponge or an insect do not, but mammals? You tell someone with a siam cat that they don't know what vengeance is and he will laugh in your face for an hour straight. You are trying to use many "smart" words, and i admit i had to look some of them up, since english is my 3rd language. Sure, it confuses a bit, but does not improve your statements in any way more than maybe artistic. "You are taking a statement about a subset and erroneously applying it to the whole then creating a false axiom from it." - Yeah, well, i recommend to abate the oft usage of erstwhile termini in hither panel. I trust thou abide.

 

And yes, Ordis says that we should be cautious when occupying him, Ordis however also adresses im at any given point as Limbo, not as a Tenno occupying a Limbo. The only possibility would be, that they were persons and we are inhabiting their carcasses, which would be strange, given that they too were Tenno, meaning that they had a personality, but we do not, since we can switch to any warframe, while they were adressed by their warframe's name, meaning they were so much bound to it, that they were defined by it. Makes total sense, right?

 

This is what i am talking about - Warframes are getting adressed as persons, one that can be tortured or mourned like fellow comrades. Then, in the very next sentence the game tells us that they are simply suits and we are the Tenno. Then again it tells us that we have to rescue our fellow Tenno from Alad V - you know, us being Immortal and capable of teleporting our presence anywhere we want. Why should we "save" an empty suit then? Wouldn't she say "salvage" the warframe, since the Tenno is already out? I don't quite see how Alad V cutting a Warframe into 6 pieces is different from running into a void laser - the suit is broken, the Tenno gets pulled back to the Liset and gets into a newly recombined Warframe, right?

Edited July 16, 2015 by Kasseopea

[Morec0]

Hmm, yeah, you are right on the Vengeance part. Read through her stuff and it is actually only rage - even "feral rage", pointing out its animalistic nature.

 

Im not saying the abilities are based on them, but if they can be altered, why are we not able to alter them? I for one wish serenity and peace for my Valkyr, yet she keeps screaming in pain. Point is - on the meta level it is clear that it would be too much work to allow every player to modify their Warframes in an additional direction to the mods, but ingame it stays a question mark. If we are the Tenno (singular) with a certain agenda, all of our Warframes should be slowly become closer to each other ability-wise, since we are the same Person. Ofc Frost would still use Ice and Ember would be still setting things ablaze.

 

Limbo is being adressed as a singular person, Mirage is as well. This is a given, be it Ordis' nerdgasming or Lotus' repentance. This means, that at least at some point they had to be unique. Ofc gameplay can't do that, because only one player would have a Mirage or a Limbo then. This is why i said that it is like in any MMORPG - we all are the chosen one, the most important one, the pioneer. Thus Warframes are unique and not unique at the same time. It is a contradiction you cannot explain with any logic, because there is none to it in the first place. It is the lore taking a hit for the gameplay, just as bosses being respawn or us being able to fly in outer space with Archwings, but loosing health in Survival missions.

 

I think Lotus stopping before calling her Mirage, is because the person who was so close to Lotus had a name. Be it Tali Zora or Alex, it was probably a personal name without a functionality. Lotus gives her one - Mirage.

 

We CAN alter them. Augment mods. We just can't CHANGE them from what they were - i.e. swap them between Warframes, as your Frost with Silence example suggests. As for Valkyr, she simply can't be helped at this point, she and all knowledge we have of her (at least until we get that skin released) are lost to us - as Mirage and Limbo Warframes have been lost to us in the past. She's going to be in constant pain because we don't know the knowledge to properly fix her - we might just do more damage.

 

I don't understand where how you're making the jump to all of our Warfarmes should become closer, abilities-wise. The Warframes determine the power, not the Tenno that occupies them- we're basically a pilot and battery of Void energy to fuel them (hence why we, instead of just Warframes, were the key to defeating the Sentients - our innate connection to Void energy, that which was toxic to them, gave us the edge they couldn't compete against). They're tools, and you use tools in specific ways - you don't try tighten a screw with a hammer, that's not it's function, that's not how it works.

 

And yes, they WERE addressed as singular because we were following the path of a singular person - the Tenno who was wearing that Warframe. A singular Tenno occupying that frame at that time went through that hardship, and that's what leaves behind the Void Shadow we trace and garner the information to be able to relearn how to build the frame from.

 

And you're not making any sense with the talk of "we are unique but aren't all unique", you'll need to explain that more. Aye, the quests do paint the picture of us doing that ourselves, that's what quests do, but in terms of the whole game we have "our fellow Tenno" from ALL over the System helping - events, for example; hell, the very core of the gameplay is team play to defeat your foes. The Relays themselves are geared towards this idea, as are Dojos.

 

That's a possible theory, but it again contradicts the information we're given in Limbo Theorem - we're the one switching between these Frames, and the name of the Frame was Mirage.

 

 

Sorry, it is a little bit difficult to take you seriously when you begin to claim that animals have no deeper emotions. A sponge or an insect do not, but mammals? You tell someone with a siam cat that they don't know what vengeance is and he will laugh in your face for an hour straight. You are trying to use many "smart" words, and i admit i had to look some of them up, since english is my 3rd language. Sure, it confuses a bit, but does not improve your statements in any way more than maybe artistic. "You are taking a statement about a subset and erroneously applying it to the whole then creating a false axiom from it." - Yeah, well, i recommend to abate the oft usage of erstwhile termini in hither panel. I trust thou abide.

 

And yes, Ordis says that we should be cautious when occupying him, Ordis however also adresses im at any given point as Limbo, not as a Tenno occupying a Limbo. The only possibility would be, that they were persons and we are inhabiting their carcasses, which would be strange, given that they too were Tenno, meaning that they had a personality, but we do not, since we can switch to any warframe, while they were adressed by their warframe's name, meaning they were so much bound to it, that they were defined by it. Makes total sense, right?

 

This is what i am talking about - Warframes are getting adressed as persons, one that can be tortured or mourned like fellow comrades. Then, in the very next sentence the game tells us that they are simply suits and we are the Tenno. Then again it tells us that we have to rescue our fellow Tenno from Alad V - you know, us being Immortal and capable of teleporting our presence anywhere we want. Why should we "save" an empty suit then? Wouldn't she say "salvage" the warframe, since the Tenno is already out? I don't quite see how Alad V cutting a Warframe into 6 pieces is different from running into a void laser - the suit is broken, the Tenno gets pulled back to the Liset and gets into a newly recombined Warframe, right?

 

What people perceive as vengeance from animals is one thing, what actually happens is another. EVERYONE jokes about "oh, my cat is plotting to kill me!" - but they're not actually plotting, we know that. Animals don't have the higher brain functions to be able to process revenge.

 

The idea that we're occupying carcasses in the frames IS a theory going around - not one I'm fond of, because I too find it squick and don't understand why we couldn't just occupy the Warframes themselves in such a manner if we're doing that. And how do we not have a personality because we can switch between any frame? The Tenno is still the mind in command, the dominate one, the theory we're saying only suggests the Warframes leak bits of their personality into the Tenno's, no completely defines it.

 

You have Noble stances, you have Agile stances, but your default is a stance that is always the same no matter which Warframe you occupy.

 

Warframes are getting addressed as the names of the Warframes - though I will agree the talk of Limbo as being named Limbo is strange (though, given the revelation mentioned countless times at the end of it, I have a theory that such a thing may have something to do with Tenno naming conventions - Codenames, and that Tenno was codenamed after that frame he wore). Further details are needed, but Ordis' line there IS the final nail in the matter of Mono-Tenno vs. Poly-Tenno theory - Tenno CAN switch between Warframes.

 

And we need to save an empty Frame because, without doing so, our enemies get that technology. Alad made Zanuka, he made the Mutalist Mesa, and the Grineer have been know to study our Warframes as well. Just because there's no one manning the armory doesn't mean the enemy can't make use of the weapons in there. Also, I was looking through Lotus' boss quotes - Alad V's in particular - and she never says "save the Warframes". The closest would be "We cannot allow the Warframes to fall into the wrong hands." from the Nef Anyo fight.

 

And we don't what the fate of the Tenno in that Warframe - if there was one at the time - from the trailer was.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Morec0

[SilentMobius]

since english is my 3rd language

 

That's useful to know. You've been failing to martial parsable sentences so often that I was wondering if it was willful, I'm be more aware for that when trying to understand what you're saying.

 

 

Sorry, it is a little bit difficult to take you seriously when you begin to claim that animals have no deeper emotions. A sponge or an insect do not, but mammals? You tell someone with a siam cat that they don't know what vengeance is and he will laugh in your face for an hour straight.

 

Ok, I suggest you have another read of what I wrote, because the thing you're accusing me of saying here, is a complete fabrication on your part.

I am suggesting that animals do indeed have emotions, with specific examples, to answer you challenge here:

 

Name me one thing that has feelings - rage, love, passion, joy, sadness - but is not sentient.

 

Now, perhaps you are holding by the "Animal right" use of the term, which does not imply also possessing sapience as a prerequisite for sentience. If so, fine, then you could say that A Warframe _is_ sentient _but_ that doesn't help your argument because Epicurious is referring to beings who are sapient and sentient hence again, your assertion does not apply.

 

tl;dr

 

When discussing artificial constructs like AI or other Sci-Fi entities sentience implies sapience.

Epicurious's discussion of evil as you refer to is is not talking about "sentience" as in "capable of suffering" it also requires "sapience" "capable of reasoning" as well

 

 

 You are trying to use many "smart" words, and i admit i had to look some of them up, since english is my 3rd language. Sure, it confuses a bit, but does not improve your statements in any way more than maybe artistic. "You are taking a statement about a subset and erroneously applying it to the whole then creating a false axiom from it." - Yeah, well, i recommend to abate the oft usage of erstwhile termini in hither panel. I trust thou abide.

 

You need to lean the different between archaic language and simply being accurate in a philosophical discussion. That is if you want to try to throw around references to Epicurious and not look like a fool.

 

This is what i am talking about - Warframes are getting adressed as persons,

 

If that's your problem perhaps it is a linguistic issue you're having. It's just a shortcut.

 

"Limbo" (for example) is used in two contexts:

 

"The empty Warframe suit Limbo" and "The unknown Tenno, who was wearing the Last Limbo suit we know of, while in that suit."

 

There is no quick linguistic construct to refer to them so DE have taken the simple linguistic affectation of personifying the Warframe (sometimes along with the last pilot)

[Kasseopea]

We CAN alter them. Augment mods. We just can't CHANGE them from what they were - i.e. swap them between Warframes, as your Frost with Silence example suggests. As for Valkyr, she simply can't be helped at this point, she and all knowledge we have of her (at least until we get that skin released) are lost to us - as Mirage and Limbo Warframes have been lost to us in the past. She's going to be in constant pain because we don't know the knowledge to properly fix her - we might just do more damage.

 

I don't understand where how you're making the jump to all of our Warfarmes should become closer, abilities-wise. The Warframes determine the power, not the Tenno that occupies them- we're basically a pilot and battery of Void energy to fuel them (hence why we, instead of just Warframes, were the key to defeating the Sentients - our innate connection to Void energy, that which was toxic to them, gave us the edge they couldn't compete against). They're tools, and you use tools in specific ways - you don't try tighten a screw with a hammer, that's not it's function, that's not how it works.

 

And yes, they WERE addressed as singular because we were following the path of a singular person - the Tenno who was wearing that Warframe. A singular Tenno occupying that frame at that time went through that hardship, and that's what leaves behind the Void Shadow we trace and garner the information to be able to relearn how to build the frame from.

 

And you're not making any sense with the talk of "we are unique but aren't all unique", you'll need to explain that more. Aye, the quests do paint the picture of us doing that ourselves, that's what quests do, but in terms of the whole game we have "our fellow Tenno" from ALL over the System helping - events, for example; hell, the very core of the gameplay is team play to defeat your foes. The Relays themselves are geared towards this idea, as are Dojos.

 

That's a possible theory, but it again contradicts the information we're given in Limbo Theorem - we're the one switching between these Frames, and the name of the Frame was Mirage.

 

 

 

What people perceive as vengeance from animals is one thing, what actually happens is another. EVERYONE jokes about "oh, my cat is plotting to kill me!" - but they're not actually plotting, we know that. Animals don't have the higher brain functions to be able to process revenge.

 

The idea that we're occupying carcasses in the frames IS a theory going around - not one I'm fond of, because I too find it squick and don't understand why we couldn't just occupy the Warframes themselves in such a manner if we're doing that. And how do we not have a personality because we can switch between any frame? The Tenno is still the mind in command, the dominate one, the theory we're saying only suggests the Warframes leak bits of their personality into the Tenno's, no completely defines it.

 

You have Noble stances, you have Agile stances, but your default is a stance that is always the same no matter which Warframe you occupy.

 

Warframes are getting addressed as the names of the Warframes - though I will agree the talk of Limbo as being named Limbo is strange (though, given the revelation mentioned countless times at the end of it, I have a theory that such a thing may have something to do with Tenno naming conventions - Codenames, and that Tenno was codenamed after that frame he wore). Further details are needed, but Ordis' line there IS the final nail in the matter of Mono-Tenno vs. Poly-Tenno theory - Tenno CAN switch between Warframes.

 

And we need to save an empty Frame because, without doing so, our enemies get that technology. Alad made Zanuka, he made the Mutalist Mesa, and the Grineer have been know to study our Warframes as well. Just because there's no one manning the armory doesn't mean the enemy can't make use of the weapons in there. Also, I was looking through Lotus' boss quotes - Alad V's in particular - and she never says "save the Warframes". The closest would be "We cannot allow the Warframes to fall into the wrong hands." from the Nef Anyo fight.

 

And we don't what the fate of the Tenno in that Warframe - if there was one at the time - from the trailer was.

 

Well, unique in the sense that Mirage was unique to Lotus and Limbo was a unique genius as Ordis says. This points out that they were special, not just one of thousands.

 

Lotus adresses Mirage personally, as if they knew each other very well and Mirage is conforming her. This is a relationship. Why would Lotus have a relationship to a tool? She also does not differentiate between the Tenno and the Warframe however, always speaking of one person, rather than a person AND a suit. She adresses a unity rather than two separate beings or a being and a tool.

 

On the other hand one could say that the last sentence is basically Lotus saying "We couldn't save the Tenno, but we got Mirage, build her in the memories of the Tenno" between the lines. Makes sense, totally agree, but why is this the only Mirage we could have gotten? The Tenno were more or less "done", so when they came back through the void, a couple of Mirage should have been there as well, right? Maybe scattered like Hydroid, but existing outside of this one single memory of Lotus.

 

It makes for a good story, but still seems strange why it is this particular Mirage we are going so far to recover. You know, the disintegrated one. That we recover. Disintegrated. I mean, we are collecting void imprints and at this point Void is more or less Space Magic or the Force in Star Wars^^ - it does stuff. Because of reasons.

 

Besides - im not talking about Nef Anyo, im talking about the "lets farm neural sensors" mission where you fight Zanuka.

 

Oh, and you gonna like this - i just busted the Tenno-is-Energy theory (well, at least for me, ive seen a thread with a similar title, havent read it though XD). If Zanuka captures you, Alad V says "Good job, Zanuka. This Tenno's bones will make you a fine sibling." - So, a Tenno MUST have bones, so the least we are are walking skeletons from Evil Dead^^

 

So basically he says that Zanuka is made out of Warframe components (in the trailer) and at the same time that it is made out of Tenno ("Now play nice Tenno, Zanuka is one of you. (Laughs) Actually, come to think of it, Zanuka is many of you." / "Tenno, be careful! You must make sure not to damage all those parts of yours! Hmm, such valuable merchandise."). So yeah, we ARE saving Warframe AND Tenno when going for Alad, because he uses both. This also leaves the question open on how we are teleported back, if we are solid. Maybe the forge makes a new Tenno-body as well?^^

 

This would mean however, that our bodies can be destroyed and rebuilt, then the consciousness transferred. We are however only rebuilding the suits, which somehow fit no matter the gender. Maybe Tenno are herms...? LoL

 

I never said you would lie or invent arguments - what you say is true, but i also brought up facts and conclusions that are anchored in the lore. My whole point is that the lore is incoherent. At one point it says one "definitive" thing, at another it is a different "definitive" thing.

 

In any case, i would love to see the new Valkyr skin having the "Rescued" or "Healed" prefix. It is just a small detail, but quite an important one to those who actually invest themselves with the lore and happenings.

 

(Also, i think it is the first time a flame war went full circle back to a normal, friendly discussion after derailing XD)

 

That's useful to know. You've been failing to martial parsable sentences so often that I was wondering if it was willful, I'm be more aware for that when trying to understand what you're saying.

 

Yeah, i am be too. Very exacting. Much wow. Are you aware for The 40 year Old Virgin?

 

Jay:

"Now you're being condescending. See you've been warned aight. Just move forward amicably."

Customer:

"Okay, well check this out though. First of all you're throwing to many big words at me. Okay now, because I don't understand them I'm gonna take 'em as disrespect."

Edited July 16, 2015 by Kasseopea

[BrazilianJoe]

Guys, you're so much into each other throats, I can't resist just meta-commenting the way the discussion has gone:

 

 

What was it about again? 

 

Yeah, Valkyr Pre-Corpus should be a "restored version" or "undamaged version"?

Edited July 16, 2015 by -TP-BrazilianJoe

[Kasseopea]

Guys, you're so much into each other throats, I can't resist just meta-commenting the way the discussion has gone:

 

 

What was it about again? 

 

Yeah, Valkyr Pre-Corpus should be a "restored version" or "undamaged version"?

 

Yeah, k, you are right^^

 

You know, DE are welcome to make any statement to this, only that they wont. Reminds me a little of the "leaked" testing footage for Deadpool. Building up the hype without giving much detail, grrrr^^

 

i want my cuddly healed Valkyr

Edited July 16, 2015 by Kasseopea

[BrazilianJoe]

I'd like to see DE seize the opportunity for *maximum exploitation* in the good sense. 

 

To me, it could acommodate a completely new frame which is Valkyr's "previous life". 

 

Call her Amazon, or any cool amazon name such as Areto (means unspeakable) or Asteria (from the sky) or any other name from whatever mythology, Greek or non-Greek.

 

Make her "Valkyr ppredecessor" by means of lore only. 

 

Current lore is loose enough to acommodate this. 

 

But if it's released as just a Valkyr Skin I'm fine. If it becomes Valkyr Prime? Fine too. 

 

Release a bunch of augments (4 in a bunch) to reflect 'pre-Corpus Valkyr' powers being slightly tweaked? Sign me in. 

[jfhsanseiIII]

Instead of the screaming cries of a tortured soul she should whistle 'the Girl from Ipanema' as she slashes her foes apart.

[BrazilianJoe]

Instead of the screaming cries of a tortured soul she should whistle 'the Girl from Ipanema' as she slashes her foes apart.

 

I can support this idea.

[Kasseopea]

Instead of the screaming cries of a tortured soul she should whistle 'the Girl from Ipanema' as she slashes her foes apart.

 

Or "X gonna give it to you" from Deadpool. She will be a Deadpool warframe XD

[jfhsanseiIII]

Or "X gonna give it to you" from Deadpool. She will be a Deadpool warframe XD

The Girl from Ipanema has a much more subtle feel to it. Ominous in a whimsical kind of way. ;)