Fixing The Dojo Issue For Smaller Clans While Maintaining Advantages For Large Groups.

[Caernarvon]

Being from a huge clan I didn't have any issues accessing a fully kitted-out dojo on the first day.

However from looking at the forums it was obvious that the material and Forma costs of even the simplest tiles were a large issue for smaller clans.

 

Most propose to have dojo costs scale directly with clan size, but with the current system that would destroy the point of big clans. 10 people-size groups accessing the same commodities as 100 people groups for lower prices? That just doesn't fly.

 

My take on this issue is that the clan leader could chose between three "types" of dojos prior to creating one: small, medium and large.

Each would offer about the same kind of tiles, but with the tiles themselves differing in cost, size and usefulness depending on the pre-selected dojo size.

As such a small clan could properly build a dojo with reactor, junctions, labs and all, but everything would be smaller and the R&D portions for example wouldn't allow for all research.

 

A dozen friends can build themselves a small comfy base with advantages over loners, and large groups can churn out larger dojos with extra benefits as well.

Everybody is happy.

 

EDIT: Being able to upgrade from one size to the next would allow a growing clan to make the jump to higher quality stuff too.

 

 

Or you would need to "upgrade" your clan to hold a certain amount of clan members.

25 would be the base, then 100 etc and then scale resources and perks according to the pre set clan level.

 

That's an interesting idea, though limiting clan size itself with real money would be unpopular.

 

Edited May 24, 2013 by Caernarvon

[GrandMasterV]

Or you would need to "upgrade" your clan to hold a certain amount of clan members.

25 would be the base, then 100 etc and then scale resources and perks according to the pre set clan level.

[Eyro]

I don't see why you get to have all the new toys just because you got with a bunch of people you don't know and threw some resources into a dojo.

[Worira]

Bad idea is bad. Why should smaller clans be restricted from certain research? Why should larger clans have an advantage at all? This isn't EVE or WoW, it's not like we need to field fleets or raids.

[LordofTibera]

I mean, at minimum my friends and i wanted to make a research room to make new weapons cuz we knew we probably couldnt make it all but DE wont let us even do that...i want to participate but im not joining strangers because, after all, whats the point of having a huge dojo if i dont care about anyone there?

[rhoenix]

My clan has a grand total of four members, counting myself. We're not worried about the costs.

We simply sat down, and planned out what the Dojo should look like, based on capacity and energy costs, compared against the materials costs (and best ways to satisfy them) for each piece of the Dojo. It'll take us a bit more than a week to get this thing built to the point where we can research delicious, delicious energy weapons, but we'll get it done.

[Caernarvon]

My clan has a grand total of four members, counting myself. We're not worried about the costs.

We simply sat down, and planned out what the Dojo should look like, based on capacity and energy costs, compared against the materials costs (and best ways to satisfy them) for each piece of the Dojo. It'll take us a bit more than a week to get this thing built to the point where we can research delicious, delicious energy weapons, but we'll get it done.

 

Most people aren't patient enough for that though, so I tried my hand at a solution that would help smaller clans access a decent amount of content faster.

[rhoenix]

Most people aren't patient enough for that though, so I tried my hand at a solution that would help smaller clans access a decent amount of content faster.

Maybe, but I look at it this way - the Dojo is a very large, though one-time cost. It doesn't need an upkeep cost or anything else, apart from adding stuff to it later if you feel like it. So yes - building it is costly, but you'll only have to worry about it until it's built.

[GrandMasterV]

Just saying that you can scale with members and add perks to larger clan, for instance decorations, clan logo on the wall etc

Not any vitals like new weapons etc etc, keep that accessible to all clans small or big.

 

Scaling would work, or lower the amount of resources all together

Lowering the resources WOULD make it easier for large clans to upgrade there dojo and run out of projects to work on.

And that would defeat the purpose as well as small clans not being able to gather the resources fast enough.

 

You want to end up in the middle where small and big clans can have access to research etc.

But add vanity/special items based scaling in that case.

 

But yes the end result should be that no matter what size your clan is you will be able to obtain certain tiles in a fair amount of time.

[Nod_Off]

Being from a huge clan I didn't have any issues accessing a fully kitted-out dojo on the first day.

However from looking at the forums it was obvious that the material and Forma costs of even the simplest tiles were a large issue for smaller clans.

 

Most propose to have dojo costs scale directly with clan size, but with the current system that would destroy the point of big clans. 10 people-size groups accessing the same commodities as 100 people groups for lower prices? That just doesn't fly.

 

My take on this issue is that the clan leader could chose between three "types" of dojos prior to creating one: small, medium and large.

Each would offer about the same kind of tiles, but with the tiles themselves differing in cost, size and usefulness depending on the pre-selected dojo size.

As such a small clan could properly build a dojo with reactor, junctions, labs and all, but everything would be smaller and the R&D portions for example wouldn't allow for all research.

 

A dozen friends can build themselves a small comfy base with advantages over loners, and large groups can churn out larger dojos with extra benefits as well.

Everybody is happy.

 

EDIT: Being able to upgrade from one size to the next would allow a growing clan to make the jump to higher quality stuff too.

 

 

 

That's an interesting idea, though limiting clan size itself with real money would be unpopular.

In favor.

Too many posters do not realize the implications of scaling dojos...

But this alleviates that issue.

Nice post!

@GrandMaster - I think making it easier/the same difficulty for smaller clans to access the same content as large would not fly. Large clans would then have 0 reason to exist, as this 20 man clan can get the same things in the same amount of time.

The dojo sizing option is a great idea, as long as the smaller clans have to take longer to get the items, or lose out on access to certain ones.

I would be furious if a group of 9 guys got to the same content at the same speed as my clan of 300+ that would be ludicrous.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Zackai

[Steemship]

I think it would be nice...it would stop this annoying clan zerging that's going on.

[plznohurtme]

The whole basis for this post just makes DE's current model slightly less bad, you're still restricting people from content based on the amount of people they want to play with. There is absolutely no reason to cut smaller clans off from any content at all in any way, and in fact there's no reason to complicate the system they have put in right now. A simple time versus cost trade off is still the simplest and best option I've seen. Personally I wouldn't mind having to wait a week + per building if I could make them with reasonable materials cost.

Also anything that's aesthetics should be available for whomever wants to waste the time. Personally I don't have a problem with there being a big barrier there, but right now there's a barrier between players and the actual content.

Feel free to read this if anyone wants more specifics: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/49327-dojo-thoughts-from-someone-not-interested-in-larger-clan-play/

Edited May 24, 2013 by plznohurtme

[Steemship]

In favor.

Too many posters do not realize the implications of scaling dojos...

But this alleviates that issue.

Nice post!

@GrandMaster - I think making it easier/the same difficulty for smaller clans to access the same content as large would not fly. Large clans would then have 0 reason to exist, as this 20 man clan can get the same things in the same amount of time.

The dojo sizing option is a great idea, as long as the smaller clans have to take longer to get the items, or lose out on access to certain ones.

I would be furious if a group of 9 guys got to the same content at the same speed as my clan of 300+ that would be ludicrous.

The current emphasis on zerging that clans are doing isn't healthy in the long run as it isn't strong clans; it is a bunch of players milking the benefits.

[Worira]

Why do you think a 300+ clan ought to have an advantage over a 10 man clan? You aren't putting in any more effort, you just have more people. Should large clans gain more affinity, too?

 

And if the reason for having a certain clan size is to game the system rather than to actually have a social group of whatever size you want, you need to reconsider your priorities.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Worira

[Nod_Off]

The current emphasis on zerging that clans are doing isn't healthy in the long run as it isn't strong clans; it is a bunch of players milking the benefits.

Clans Zerging? You mean building?

The Dojo is in no way the end game content, it is only content added in for leisure and research. side content if you will.

[Luxangel7]

 10 people-size groups accessing the same commodities as 100 people groups for lower prices? That just doesn't fly.

 

That's the dumbest single comment I've read about the clan issues all day on these forums.

 

Clans are NOT supposed to be so you can access better stuff than other players.

 

Clans ARE supposed to be so you can cooeprate and build relationships with the other players you most enjoy.

 

Therefore, creating new and interesting things should be available to EVERYONE.

 

A clan with 10 people should require LESS resources than a clan with 100 people.

 

Conversely, it should take a lot longer in terms of building time for a clan of 10 people to receive that same thing the clan with 100 people has.

 

 

Honestly, how is this hard to figure out? This is where the drama and bullshi* of clans is now going to seep into this game. People like OP are going to be taking this stuff WAY too seriously and start acting like it's the army or something and we're ACTUALLY fighting the Grineer.

 

Holy hell people....it's a game. Can you imagine what would happen if on a future Left for Dead 3 they made it so that you had to join a clan with 100+ people to be able to access certain characters, weapons whatever?

 

People go around touting this game as MMO. Guess what? It's not. It's just not. This is an online coop game. Period.

 

Until the day comes when you and 15 other buddies can go attack the mega boss on Grineer world "x" this is not an mmo.

 

Until the day comes when you can openly pvp against other players in the world then this is not an mmo.

 

I could go on, but you get the point. Sorry to all if I wrote too much, but that portion I quoted just activated my intolerance for extremely dumb things.

[Steemship]

Clans Zerging? You mean building?

The Dojo is in no way the end game content, it is only content added in for leisure and research. side content if you will.

This would be true if their wasn't specific content that could only be obtained from being in a large guild.

 

Building involves actually growing and combining. I can promise you that a majority of the 200+ clans are only so large because people joined them for the Dojo benefits.

[Mak_Gohae]

I don't see why you get to have all the new toys just because you got with a bunch of people you don't know and threw some resources into a dojo.

 

I dont see why you should have all the new toys just because you decided to only play with a couple of your friends.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

I dont see why you should have all the new toys just because you decided to only play with a couple of your friends.

because its an awful design choice to arbitrarily lock players out of content if they don't join a "clan" of random people. Its this sort of thing new prospective players will hear about and go "Oh well me and my friends only wanted to play together..." then not bother joining at all because they don't want to be part of some thousand-man clan. This is especially pointless because this game only lets you group with up to four people, there are literally no other benefits to being in a large clan.

[Mak_Gohae]

because its an awful design choice to arbitrarily lock players out of content if they don't join a "clan" of random people. Its this sort of thing new prospective players will hear about and go "Oh well me and my friends only wanted to play together..." then not bother joining at all because they don't want to be part of some thousand-man clan. This is especially pointless because this game only lets you group with up to four people, there are literally no other benefits to being in a large clan.

 

Some prospective players should expect this type of content becasue this concept is not something that was just created for this game.

Some prospective players should then look at other things that they can do with their smaller group like some prospective players have been doing for years now.

[GrandMasterV]

Spend years running clans in all shapes and sizes and i learned that large sized clans are mostly a disaster waiting to happen.

Your better of finding a small to medium sized clan with like minded people.

 Large clans tend to end up in small pieces and takes great skill and leadership to maintain, and leadership is something you got to be born with.

Also you can only play with 3 at a time, you and 3 other squad members, so a large clan only makes sense if you need vast quantity of resources and a large pool of people to form squads with.

Does not add anything to game play at all other then more work if you want to run such a large clan.

 

The end result should be that in whatever size of clan you should be able to get tiles in a fair amount of time.

It would not be fair for some one who wants to be in a small/medium sized clan because he wants to play with friends, brings over clan members from an other game etc etc  to be subjected to a forced large clan for the sake of having access to research.

Nor would it be fair if large clans for however long they might exist that they run out of projects in a short period of time.

 

Scaling, tiles based on clans size etc could work and should at-least be looked at.

I started a small clan with access to a Dojo for all involved and i might recruit but i will not end up having a large clan.

To much work and i got more things on my mind then spending hours of maintaining a clan like i used to.

And i am sure that most people have lives as well and have more on there agenda then farming 24/7 for materials.

[MisguidedGT]

In this thread we discussed having cheaper versions of the rooms that looked inferior and weren't as functional. For instance, it might take 5-7 days to do research, instead of three for the regular lab.

[plznohurtme]

In this thread we discussed having cheaper versions of the rooms that looked inferior and weren't as functional. For instance, it might take 5-7 days to do research, instead of three for the regular lab.

The problem is that this isn't a quick fix to the problem at hand, and what's needed is something that doesn't come a month+ down the road. All of the current costs are seemingly setup around having a fairly large clan, say at least 20+ people to get anything done, and the requirements are a joke to the really big clans because they just throw people at it. The easiest thing to do would be to adjust the numbers on the system already in place (eg time/cost variance etc). The huge costs involved just mean that getting a huge number of people is the most efficient way to do things, and that's just a good way to tell a chunk of the community to F*** off.

[Smoke39]

I dont see why you should have all the new toys just because you decided to only play with a couple of your friends.

 

What in the world does the number of people you associate with have to do with ANYTHING?  It's a completely ARBITRARY condition for restricting access to content.

[Colban]

I like the idea, but do not restrict research based on clan size.

It'd screw over small clans again.