Dear Devs: The Current Dojo System Is Making You Lose A Lot Of Potential Profit (Solution For Big Vs. Small Clan Included)

[ThePresident777]

Because right now this is a classical economics situation. I know because I also have a degree in economics (mathematics-economics). This is a textbook Tragedy of the Commons situation.

 

Basically, in a tragedy of the commons, because things are 'free', people overuse them. A built building is totally free after the initial investment cost. This means that if you're in a small clan, the ideal economic behavior to do is to disband your clan and join a big top 3 clan with their stuff already built.

 

This encourages assimilation. As Dojo building choices increase and their size increases, this is further exacerbated until you may well have only one clan period. Worse is if enough people act like &*$$ economicus and realize that if they pay forma in, they gain nothing (since the building is available to all, thus everyone gets the same benefit), while if they use forma for their other stuff, they personally gain. Eventually, this means that the economically rational thing to do is never contribute forma.

 

Which means nothing gets built. That's the tragedy of the commons endgame, and it's only because most people playing don't understand economics outside of "common sense" economics that we're seeing anything else. However, as this develops you'll probably see guys flocking towards single large clans at the very least as a result of this tragedy of the commons situation. Honestly, DE, if your economics guys didn't catch this tragedy of the commons issue I really don't know what's up.

 

Furthermore it gets even worse. The materials/forma costs mean you have very high sunk costs for minimal benefit for small clans even ignoring forma. The most optimal thing for them to do is not touch dojos.

 

EDIT: Holy crap, this system censors scientific names for people? The censored word is actually a shorthand for 'hominid', BTW.

 

Dojo rooms cost more than forma.  They have a steep cost in time due to the massive quantity of other materials required.  So, people who can afford to contribute in forma can do so, and the rest contribute, essentially, their time.

 

The reason why the current system lends itself to larger and fewer clans is because dojos are expensive.  But, that does not mean that it is unprofitable for DE.   That remains to be seen.

[MJ12]

Dojo rooms cost more than forma.  They have a steep cost in time due to the massive quantity of other materials required.  So, people who can afford to contribute in forma can do so, and the rest contribute, essentially, their time.

 

The reason why the current system lends itself to larger and fewer clans is because dojos are expensive.  But, that does not mean that it is unprofitable for DE.   That remains to be seen.

 

Yes but the primary wall is forma. There are other walls but they're less problematic. This is still a classic tragedy of the commons situation, because it applies to forma, alloy plate, rubedo, or nano spores. There is no reason why you should ever contribute any resources personally, if you're Economic Man (as opposed to DE's Economy Dog).

 

You get the same benefits if you contribute nothing as you do if you contribute 15,000 rubedo, alloy plate, and all the forma.

 

The exact. Same. Benefits. It's not a great design on an economics standpoint.

 

If DE doesn't want to make this essentially a 'paywall' that's extremely unfair to small clans, then the obvious solution would be to remove Forma from the market and make it a rare-anywhere drop, so you can get it in play like nano spores or rubedo or whatever, then adopt Luxangel's solutions. If they want to monetize it as a paywall, they should adopt Luxangel's solutions anyways. Oh, and in both cases they could make a 'rare materials pack' for 20 plat which gives, I don't know, 10 randomly chosen rare materials (orokin cell, control module, neurodes, morphics, neural sensors, forma, etc).

 

The forma costs are largely untenable for any clan which doesn't have 30+ very active members.

[Luxangel7]

My posts are too clear and concise for you to be falsly ascribing notions to me on account of them.  I never said anything about being, or not being, offended with the term freeloader.  It is very clear that I think that your persistent use of the term shows a moralistic distraction from your stated claim of wanting to increase DE's profits.

 

You have not shown that selling dojo rooms as a luxury items produces less profit than selling them as mass produced items.

 

The whole issue of free loading is a side show.  It's like taking issue with a mansion owner for letting people into their mansion for free.  The important question is, do I make more money selling mansions or do I make more money selling trailer homes, or sky scrapers, or ........

 

Incidentally, although forma is expensive for most people, the rest of the materials are too expensive in time for people who can afford forma.  There is more to contribute besides forma, things too expensive for those who can afford forma.  So, free loading does not apply here.

 

Look, I have already addressed what you call a "moralistic distraction". I never brought it up as a moralistic issue, but as an economics one. You are the one who started talking about me insulting others. I have made it clear this was not my point or intention, so if you wish to continue to bring it up, that's your prerogative, but don't expect me to continue entertaining that point. 

 

On the merits of users not contributing anything, both I and others have already clearly explained why this is indeed a problem. User 'MJ12' has also said once again with good clarity and in a concise manner, why this is a problem. If you choose not to believe in it, you are welcome to your opinion, but unfortunately it's simply an objective fact.

 

As for the resources leading to others contributing their time, you still miss two important points. MJ12 beautifully explains why the system is flawed on the player based incentive side, and apart from that you are also glossing over the fact that right now resource requirements are unrealistc for smaller clans just as much as forma requirements are. 

 

My proposed solution or a similar system if employed would solve these two issues as well as provide various collateral benefits as outlined in the OP. If you have a personal opinion of not liking my suggested system for whatever reason, that is fine. It's your opinion and you are welcome to it, but unfortunately the facts of the issue and the benefits of the proposed solution remain. 

 

However, as I've told a few others, there's nothing wrong in not being able to agree. There are no hard feelings intended. :)

[NeoDarkSider]

I think the OP is one possible solution to the current situation regarding forma cost, dojos, and small clans.

 

For those who slept through economics class, forgot what it means, or have a misunderstanding of economics.

 

Economics:

 

1. The social science that deals with the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services and with the theory and management of economies or economic systems.

 

2. Economic matters, especially relevant financial considerations.

Edited May 26, 2013 by NeoDarkSider

[vash2pid]

What the heck is up with the research cost, its abysmal.

[Rarnd]

After taking the time to actually read this post, I have to say, sir, that you have your head on properly. This was very well thought out and is very fair. I completely agree with this and I would actually spend a bit more money on Warframe for some extra forma with a system like this. At the moment, I would be forking out TONS of cash to basically carry my allies with forma, which is completely unfair on me, which is why I would never do it.

 

A system like this promotes a bit more teamwork. Joining a huge clan and being an inconsequential number amongst the thousands isn't what the Tenno are about. Being a cell of comrades who trust each other and have each others backs - that's what the Tenno are about. Don't break away from that. I would highly recommend following this guys suggestion. It's fair, well thought-out and would bring in a lot of money - especially from those massive clans.

 

I highly recommend this method, DE. Do it *thumbs up*!

[Raijinmeister]

Are you referring to my suggestion or to the current system?

 

Because currently there is already a money wall, except it is both flawed for DE profits as well as completely flawed for smaller clans in a gameplay perspective.

Both.

[Unibot]

Dislike the whole forma idea. It should never exist in the first place.

Was about to get hunter, now I'll wait a bit more. If we get this milking machine here, we might get alot more of those in future.

Haven't got any forma and made 5 void runs(in 2 days, 2 keys were mine). Void keys don't hop in my pocket that often to get 100 runs a day. So I have no clue how that idea will work.

In fact it will take away content from those who don't have forma. Whats the point of a clan then ? It's a community, not a vip club.

If I could - I would downvote the OP, sadly I can't do it anymore.

Shame on you OP.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Unibot

[Luxangel7]

Dislike the whole forma idea. It should never exist in the first place.

Was about too get hunter, now I'll wait a bit more. If we get this milking machine here, we might get alot more of those in future.

Haven't got any forma and made 5 void runs(in 2 days, 2 keys were mine). Void keys don't hop in my pocket that often to get 100 runs a day. So I have no clue how that idea will work.

In fact it will take away content from those who don't have forma. Whats the point of a clan then ? It's a community, not a vip club.

If I could - I would downvote the OP, sadly I can't do it anymore.

Shame on you OP.

 

I'm sorry, I mean no offense but your post was quite incoherent. All I got from it was that you dislike the suggestions I made because you consider it a "milking maching" and it would turn clans into "vip" clubs? You talk about void keys, but I didn't mention those?

 

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

 

And I'm pretty sure I haven't done or said anything to be ashamed of.

[Unibot]

I'm sorry, I mean no offense but your post was quite incoherent. All I got from it was that you dislike the suggestions I made because you consider it a "milking maching" and it would turn clans into "vip" clubs? You talk about void keys, but I didn't mention those?

 

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say.

 

And I'm pretty sure I haven't done or said anything to be ashamed of.

Void keys were supposed to offer you a forma as a reward for void mission run. Sadly it doesn't give forma as a rewards(not yet or the chance is uber small)

You suggest to make dojo for people with forma only. As a free player I have not yet found any forma. So it locks me out of dojo. And turns dojo into a vip club for those with forma. How a f2p player can enter a dojo then ? He can't. So you want to split community even further.

Forma alerts ? There wasn't any yet. Login reward ? Only ammo boxes, exp and credits(today). Void run rewards ? Wrote above.

Shame on you.

[SkyllianBlitz]

Really like this Idea, Lux. Now, I have issues with Forma but problem of its acquisition is separate from the problem of the costs Dojos.

 

Worst comes to worst, I can always ask one of my Clan members to hook me into a Void run to try and get Forma. Given that you can have four people in one run for one Void key, there's an advantage to the larger Clans if some members wanted access to facilities under your proposed system.

[Pisirk]

I oversee the benefits of the large clan based dojo for the benefit of having my own because I would ultimately have control over what I want to build. Plus how do you know for sure people won't leave their current large clan to design a dojo for themselves with another group when resources become available to them?

Also, Im currently in a clan that has a lot of the things built but does that mean Im in it for the benefits alone? Anyway, there are too many factors that you left out of the plate for this assessment to be accurate or valid. I think ultimately aesthetics can overweight benefits when they do implement more customization.

[DarkFireRogue]

I don't think you know. I'm not sure you have access to DE's profit charts. That might go to their financial officer. You're just speculating. I think they're getting a ton of money for this. Think about all of the people buying forma.

[Ayalin]

I want to give a big +1 to Lux idea as well; I am not an economist but not farm from, I am working in the video game industry as a game data analyst.

 

In its current state, I am not going to spend any money to buy Forma; I will try to ninja stuff in a big clan where everything is built and then I will come back with my friends into a smaller clan. I have absolutely no shame to shout it.

If Lux idea was realized, me and my friend would stick together and I would eventually buy a few forma with real money in order to see our Dojo finished; then I could keep forma looted for my own stuff. 

I am the kind of Paying user which is not afraid to spend 5 dollar by month for a game that he loves; and I believe DE should be focused on myself instead of whales;

I have been urging some of my world of warcraft / league of legend friends to join me on warframe but with this new paywall, I am not sure to insist anymore... I sold them fair free-to-play like League of legend, not pay-to-play.

 

By the way, I don't really have the courage to go to the battle after 6 pages of very interesting posts, but honestly, the OP is right in approximatively all its key points, the only problem remaining being the switch between clan and the power of leaders being able to kick someone from a clan.

So I would just add: if a player leaves the clan by himself, he loses his forma invested; if he is kicked, there is a refund; would be fair. We won't avoid some arrangements (like I want to leave your clan but please kick me for getting back my forma) but it sounds okay for me. 

 

Now, a few points close to my heart as a game data analyst:

 

When choosing Dojo Building prices- why did not you look to the metric "average number of friends by player" in order to have an idea of the average size of clan for the whole player data base? I don't have any data, but I am pretty sure that people with 50+ friends are not that numerous compare to those like me who have 3/4 friends.

If you coupled this with the average gaming time for all players (7h by week? more?) and the average gain of resources based on current RNG for one active hour of play, you could have chosen prices of the dojo according to your player data base.

 

Actually, maybe you did this^^:'), but it does not fit my case btw and many others.

 

Aside all those considerations, I suspect DE just did that in order to have a long time before players starting to cry "not enough content" again. But they solve a problem by raising another (99% of worst decisions in the video game industry come generally from non-expected secondary effects).

 

I will just finish by a few words for the OP: hey you know, the kind of skills you have are more and more hired right now in the video game industry, with games being all time connected, data becomes crucial, and with the free-to-play model, having economical notion is very important too.

 

If you want, I know a great company (based in germany) that is currently seeking for economical game designer, so just ask by MP.

[vieuxchat]

Spending only one forma to have access to "some" rooms is an excellent idea (as the OP said it would bring everyplayer to spend a little of forma)

For instance : the duelling room or the research room (if it's the only place you can grab a BP for a new weapon)

 

That thing aside I've got an idea for costs : https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/51931-a-proposition-for-the-dojo-costs/

It's about time. Small clans can pay small price (/5) and wait longer (x5) and you can pay the price up to 5 times to speed things up (up to the actual price and time of wait)

[SymphNo9]

...

So I would just add: if a player leaves the clan by himself, he loses his forma invested; if he is kicked, there is a refund; would be fair. We won't avoid some arrangements (like I want to leave your clan but please kick me for getting back my forma) but it sounds okay for me. 

...

 

As Brasten already noted, the current suggestion has no solution for leaving and joining clans which is a big deal since we are talking about a rare material that is either obtained through luck or money. And in conjunction with your suggestion, if people get their forma returned because a guild leader kicked them, then everyone would just ask their guild leader to kick them before they leave and abuse the system in that regard.

[Ayalin]

Well;

 

Let's say I am the leader of a clan;

 

I know this guy wants to leave my clan and ask me to kick him;

 

I might not be very happy and I do not think I would do him this favor; so it might be not so much widespread... data would help a lot at this level.

[SymphNo9]

Well;

 

Let's say I am the leader of a clan;

 

I know this guy wants to leave my clan and ask me to kick him;

 

I might not be very happy and I do not think I would do him this favor; so it might be not so much widespread... data would help a lot at this level.

 

I agree. But you cannot assume people won't do it, particularly not if the exploit is as obvious as it is. The guild leader loses nothing (except for a member which he probably can replace with another recruit) and the former member might even have contributed to a project, before his resignation.

[ThePresident777]

Yes but the primary wall is forma. There are other walls but they're less problematic. This is still a classic tragedy of the commons situation, because it applies to forma, alloy plate, rubedo, or nano spores. There is no reason why you should ever contribute any resources personally, if you're Economic Man (as opposed to DE's Economy Dog).

 

You get the same benefits if you contribute nothing as you do if you contribute 15,000 rubedo, alloy plate, and all the forma.

 

The exact. Same. Benefits. It's not a great design on an economics standpoint.

 

If DE doesn't want to make this essentially a 'paywall' that's extremely unfair to small clans, then the obvious solution would be to remove Forma from the market and make it a rare-anywhere drop, so you can get it in play like nano spores or rubedo or whatever, then adopt Luxangel's solutions. If they want to monetize it as a paywall, they should adopt Luxangel's solutions anyways. Oh, and in both cases they could make a 'rare materials pack' for 20 plat which gives, I don't know, 10 randomly chosen rare materials (orokin cell, control module, neurodes, morphics, neural sensors, forma, etc).

 

The forma costs are largely untenable for any clan which doesn't have 30+ very active members.

 

DE could try all sorts of payment schemes.  It could charge each player $1USD to access any dojo room, one time or a monthly rental.  Or, it could charge $10.  Or DE could charge $100USD to own a dojo with unlimited occupancy, or $1USD for limited occupancy.  DE could do whatever they wanted.  They could have a number of restrictions and various prices for removing the restrictions.

 

But, you'll never know which pricing schemes generate more profit without a proper analysis.  Nobody here knows what costs the market is willing to accept nor what market analysis DE has done, nor has anyone here presented their own.

 

Which makes all this talk about freeloading and commons nothing more than moralistic and speculative as far as profits are concerned.

Edited May 26, 2013 by ThePresident777

[ThePresident777]

Look, I have already addressed what you call a "moralistic distraction". I never brought it up as a moralistic issue, but as an economics one. You are the one who started talking about me insulting others. I have made it clear this was not my point or intention, so if you wish to continue to bring it up, that's your prerogative, but don't expect me to continue entertaining that point. 

 

On the merits of users not contributing anything, both I and others have already clearly explained why this is indeed a problem. User 'MJ12' has also said once again with good clarity and in a concise manner, why this is a problem. If you choose not to believe in it, you are welcome to your opinion, but unfortunately it's simply an objective fact.

 

As for the resources leading to others contributing their time, you still miss two important points. MJ12 beautifully explains why the system is flawed on the player based incentive side, and apart from that you are also glossing over the fact that right now resource requirements are unrealistc for smaller clans just as much as forma requirements are. 

 

My proposed solution or a similar system if employed would solve these two issues as well as provide various collateral benefits as outlined in the OP. If you have a personal opinion of not liking my suggested system for whatever reason, that is fine. It's your opinion and you are welcome to it, but unfortunately the facts of the issue and the benefits of the proposed solution remain. 

 

However, as I've told a few others, there's nothing wrong in not being able to agree. There are no hard feelings intended. :)

 

Let's try this perspective.  Since you have confidence in the validity of your assertions, do you think DE would stand to profit from paying you for your advice, had you not already given it for free?

[Tallon1969]

I've seen far too many games that you can buy or aquire parts far too easily and far too fast...  What ends up happening is that all upgrades and items are aquired and players get bored and quit.  Take too much challenge out of a game and people move on,  make it too expensive,  and people move on - simple as that. 

I agree with balancing it a bit to allow for smaller clans,  But make it too easy and every player in the game would have their own Dojo condo thus making the whole clan thing obsolete.

I dont mind having to grind a bit more if I know that I am building something that has gameplay benefits,  But the amount of resouces needed just to make a hallway is a bit over the top unless you have at least 10-15 hardcore grindrs in your clan.

I would also like to see training rooms (wallrun/climb training - Shooting range/gallery...etc..)  that you can gain exp or other rewards from in the dojo's.  These type of things I would have no problem grinding for.

 

Just my opinion.

[Kyte]

DE could try all sorts of payment schemes.  It could charge each player $1USD to access any dojo room, one time or a monthly rental.  Or, it could charge $10.  Or DE could charge $100USD to own a dojo with unlimited occupancy, or $1USD for limited occupancy.  DE could do whatever they wanted.  They could have a number of restrictions and various prices for removing the restrictions.

 

But, you'll never know which pricing schemes generate more profit without a proper analysis.  Nobody here knows what costs the market is willing to accept nor what market analysis DE has done, nor has anyone here presented their own.

 

Which makes all this talk about freeloading and commons nothing more than moralistic and speculative as far as profits are concerned.

 

Moralistic what, freeloading is a real economic term.

You don't need hard data to see how the current situation falls in a very specific type of economic failure.

 

DE doesn't have all this data either, come to think of it, so it stands doubly important for them to try things that are conceptually correct.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Kyte

[ThePresident777]

Moralistic what, freeloading is a real economic term.

You don't need hard data to see how the current situation falls in a very specific type of economic failure.

 

DE doesn't have all this data either, come to think of it, so it stands doubly important for them to try things that are conceptually correct.

 

Again, you'll never know which pricing schemes generate more profit without a proper analysis.  Nobody here knows what costs the market is willing to accept nor what market analysis DE has done, nor has anyone here presented their own.

 

Concepts in a vacuum are worthless speculation and moralizing.

 

And, again, DE has priced dojos as a luxury item.  Dojos are expensive like mansions, yachts, lear jets, sports cars, etc.   You can't categorically claim that luxury items make less profit than mass produced or consumer items.  The reason why you can't do that is because the terms luxury and consumer or mass produced are subject to interpretation.  They are not numerically or mathematically defined, unlike profit.  They are arbitrary terms.

 

This thread attempts to argue from the ill defined, the arbitrary, towards something defined, not arbitrary.  In other words, this thread is specualtion and morilization.  There is no analysis here, no serious attempt to discover maximum profit.

[Unknown924]

I don't get why people are having a hard time understanding LuxAngel7's idea.

The current system gives requires 75 forma to complete all research rooms per clan

That creates a need of 75 x number of clans that want research only

The proposed system would require 1 forma per important room for 5 forma to build a Dojo. It would also require at most 3-5 forma per player to access all research content.(5 if Oracle and Reactor also cost forma)

The need for that would be 5 x number of clans that want all research + 5 x number of players that want all research.

P = Players that want all research

C = Clans that want all research

There is an equal amount of forma used for both ideas when: 75C = 5C + 5P

Manipulating the equation:

Divide by 5: 15C = C + P

Subtract C: 14C = P

Divide by 14: C = P/14

An equal amount of forma is used if there is one C for every 14 P.

Anytime there are more than 14P per C, the second equation,5C + 5P, will result in more forma being used.

I think saying there are at least 14 players that want access to all research for every clan that wants access to all research is a safe assumption.

[Avenwing]

I don't get why people are having a hard time understanding LuxAngel7's idea.

The current system gives requires 75 forma to complete all research rooms per clan

That creates a need of 75 x number of clans that want research only

The proposed system would require 1 forma per important room for 5 forma to build a Dojo. It would also require at most 3-5 forma per player to access all research content.(5 if Oracle and Reactor also cost forma)

The need for that would be 5 x number of clans that want all research + 5 x number of players that want all research.

P = Players that want all research

C = Clans that want all research

There is an equal amount of forma used for both ideas when: 75C = 5C + 5P

Manipulating the equation:

Divide by 5: 15C = C + P

Subtract C: 14C = P

Divide by 14: C = P/14

An equal amount of forma is used if there is one C for every 14 P.

Anytime there are more than 14P per C, the second equation,5C + 5P, will result in more forma being used.

I think saying there are at least 14 players that want access to all research for every clan that wants access to all research is a safe assumption.

You don't seem to understand that some of us don't like the idea of locking clan mates out of dojo funciotnality until they cough up five or six forma.