Dear Devs: The Current Dojo System Is Making You Lose A Lot Of Potential Profit (Solution For Big Vs. Small Clan Included)

[Bakim0n0]

As to your first post, I find it absurd that you judge my suggestion as creating a divide between free and paying players when the current system is exactly that, taken to an extreme level. My suggested system if anything would bring together the two types of players by making an easy to achieve standard that everyone can attain at their own pace. 

Is there a divide? Yes. Your suggestion is implementing a CHASM between free and paying players. There is NOT an extreme level of division between free and paying users; and I say this now having leveled a completely free account to mastery 6 (a second account) complete with potatoed gear and powerful mods that can run alongside even the most potent of paid accounts decked out in plat purchases.

 

In response to your second post, I don't understand where you get the notion that having to spend forma would discourage people from participating in a clan. You are mistakenly associating two different and separate things. Clan functions are enabled by the use of a product. That product is forma and resources. Currently, the system enables a select few to spend a lot of money on some of that product and then everyone else gets access to the benefits of that product for free. My system would correct that error and make it balanced and fair gameplay for all.

 

How do you not understand how big of an issue your suggestion would cause? A free player has to cough up forma, which has alternative uses, would create a huge barrier to entry in participation in a Dojo; especially if they had to unlock each and every room. Not only that, but it would discourage paying users to help those free users favoring instead to push other paying users to grind mats and such to further progress the clan Dojo *and* the worst of all... This would start a trend for clans to exclusively deny users who cannot afford to pay forma to access and contribute. This is *NOT* isolated behavior when it comes to games.

 

Bakimono what is the purpose of this post? Why try to antagonize someone needlessly? We are discussing the merits and fatal flaws of the current system. If you think everything is fine, as you seem to, that's great. As you are so fond of saying, that is your *opinion*. Please do not antagonize or bait others into arguments just for having an opinion that differs from your own.

 

Unless you really think that simply calling people whiners is actually constructive...

The point? When someone uses anecdotal evidence, exceptions, hearsay and flawed logic that is not constructive they can expect to recieve attitude in return when they make snide comments about similar responses.

Had you bothered to ask, you might know I don't think "everything is fine" I only expressed that the suggestion here would be many times over worse than the current implementation because of things you hadn't considered, and apparently either can't understand in context or I did a poor job of explaining.

[BramBlackmon]

 

 

I'm sorry but you have completely missed the point of the clan dojo. The clan dojo is not a favor that the devs made out of the goodness of their hearts. The clan dojo is a product that is meant to be consumed for entertainment, just like the rest of the game. Everything in this game requires some sort of payment. Whether you are "paying" with your time to play and get mods, resources, blueprints whatever, or if you are paying real money is irrelevant. ((especially irrelevant considering we've already paid in full))

 

You are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion does not change the fact that the dojo is a product, just like forma. So expecting players to have to contribute a little bit each to be able to access the benefits of the dojo is completely and absolutely normal. ((And contribute they did. We've already established this fact. as you said "they paid with their time instead of their money))

 

Like I mentioned previously, the cost of the reactor could be added just like the cost for an oracle would be, when you go and try to access a labs functions. It's really not that hard to imagine. You can go unlock your personal access to the reactor and oracle either by going to those rooms, or when you try and access the lab functions. ((and this solves the problem of small clans how? all you've done is redistribute the forma cost, an extremely rare and hard to find item, instead of placing it on the shoulders of the one guy who has the materials to get the job done))

 

You can provide as many anecdotes as you want for your personal clan, but at the end of the day, they are difficult to believe, impossible to prove, and statistically irrelevant when considering all clans and their members as an aggregate taken from the pool of total players, when referring to pricing models and profits derived from an economy of scale model. ((It happened. the Clan Dojo is proof of that, you don't have any hard statistics to pull from in the first place. When you provide something more than anecdotal evidence, I'll be more than happy to up the ante))

 

On a personal less mathematical note, as I responded to Bakimono, if that's how it TRULY went for you, more power to you. However are you really going to suggest that most people are going to be so altruistic and caring about their mega clan that they will donate resources? Much less forma??

Let's be realistic... ((Yes. Let's be realistic. Those plat spending players aren't spending for the sake of altruism alone. they have personal benefit to consider. If nobody donates resources, then nothing gets built. It's not a matter of altruism. It's pragmatism at it's finest))

 

What I propose is not a unilateral money grab, it is balanced from both player and dev view point, if you choose not view it as such that is your prerogative of course. Basic functions? I would hardly argue that advanced features are basic functions, and right now they are forcing players into either spending ludicrous amounts of money or none at all in joining a large clan for those very same "basic features". I really don't see how you think my suggestion falls into your description. ((It's not an advanced feature. It's an integral part of the game. It was and is supposed to be their way of providing players with an actual goal beyond "run missions, collect resources, rinse, repeat" this game doesn't have near enough going for it otherwise for people to spend more than two weeks on it))

 

And look man, if you honestly think I took the time to express myself and defend my opinions because "I belong to small clan" and I need to "appease the devs greed" then you are WAY off the mark. I wrote what I did because I want to see the company do as well as possible while treating their fans to the best game play possible. ((Then pull your head out of your ass. This doesn't do $&*^ for small clans. they still have to gather all of those other resources. they're in it for the long haul regardless of forma through sheer virtue of not having as many players to contribute. And you know how a company does well? by considering their long term investments over short term cash flow. Coca Cola didn't get to be an iconic household image by trying to garner as much cash as possible in a short time. They did it by delivering a cheap, quality product to the consumer masses))

 

I am blessed enough to not have any problems in just straight up buying whatever is available for this game. I haven't done so because I prefer the challenge and fun factor in earning and progressing along with several of my friends, who may not have the same disposition to spend so much on it that I do. So please save any such theories about me trying to somehow "convince" the devs into doing me a favor.

 

((Then shut the hell up and buy it. Stop trying to force your ideology down the throat of other people because you don't personally like the way things are set up. You have the plat to do it, then pay your clan's way like the rest of us instead of trying to make sure your members are "Giving their fair share"))

[Luxangel7]

I see your points, but I disagree that the forma is comparable to catalysts/reactors. Forma is used to gain access to content, catalysts/reactors are only here to enhance the content. You can still play with your Hek or Grakata with a potatoe, but you won't be able to experience the lab if you don't fork out 3 formas or get lucky.

 

Also, usually when you bring in new friends in online games, you want to help them as much as possible to "bring them up on your level", gear-wise. With your suggestion, that won't be a simple matter as it still depends on them spending money right off the bat or start praying.

 

I understand what you're trying to say, but you are drawing a fine line between "accessing" and "enhancing" content. Catalysts and reactors are indeed a limit to accessing content. You are limiting access to a complete weapon. Same goes for forma.

 

And you can help your new friends in plenty of ways without them having forma. You can support them on missions they normally couldn't do on their own, help them to get the best gear/rewards against bosses and like I said above, take them on void runs with you.

 

Your point would have players have free access to everything in a dojo without having to spend any resources at all, as it is now. If you prefer it that way, that's your right, but the fact remains that it is entirely flawed in terms of business and in terms of gameplay balance and fairness.

 

Is there a divide? Yes. Your suggestion is implementing a CHASM between free and paying players. There is NOT an extreme level of division between free and paying users; and I say this now having leveled a completely free account to mastery 6 (a second account) complete with potatoed gear and powerful mods that can run alongside even the most potent of paid accounts decked out in plat purchases.

 

 

How do you not understand how big of an issue your suggestion would cause? A free player has to cough up forma, which has alternative uses, would create a huge barrier to entry in participation in a Dojo; especially if they had to unlock each and every room. Not only that, but it would discourage paying users to help those free users favoring instead to push other paying users to grind mats and such to further progress the clan Dojo *and* the worst of all... This would start a trend for clans to exclusively deny users who cannot afford to pay forma to access and contribute. This is *NOT* isolated behavior when it comes to games.

 

The point? When someone uses anecdotal evidence, exceptions, hearsay and flawed logic that is not constructive they can expect to recieve attitude in return when they make snide comments about similar responses.

Had you bothered to ask, you might know I don't think "everything is fine" I only expressed that the suggestion here would be many times over worse than the current implementation because of things you hadn't considered, and apparently either can't understand in context or I did a poor job of explaining.

 

To your first points, it seems to me that there is a divergence of opinions that we won't be able to reconcile. I'm sorry if you view my suggestions in that way, I've done my best in my OP and previous other posts to explain as best I could why your concerns would not come true. I think we will just have to disagree and leave it at that.

 

As to your other point. You are the one who used anecdotal evidence and hearsay about an anonymous 10 player clan having no problems. You consistently told others or implied that they were wrong because what they said was their opinion, all the while offering up nothing more than your own opinion. And even if this wasn't true, as you are no doubt going to believe, and another user had in fact responded to you in an offensive or snide manner, what do you hope to achieve by answering in kind? The only thing that will come of it is an escalation of insults.

 

We must have misunderstood each other, as I inferred that you thought the current system is fine. It's too bad you don't like my suggestions, but that is your right to have your opinion. As I said before, there's no hard feelings in disagreeing and leaving it at that. :)

[Luxangel7]

----

 

If you are expecting me to respond to you after your unnecessary aggressiveness, rudeness, profanity and complete lack of normal manners in talking to someone, not to mention flawed and circular personally catered logic, then you are gravely mistaken.

Edited May 25, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[BramBlackmon]

If you are expecting me to respond to you after your unnecessary aggressiveness, rudeness, profanity and complete lack of normal manners in talking to someone, not to mention flawed and circular personally catered logic, then you are gravely mistaken.

Can't be too mistaken. Because you totally responded to me. Guess you just couldn't think of a comeback. Someone around here is losing ground rather quickly.

Edited May 25, 2013 by BramBlackmon

[Brasten]

I am going to make a slight rebuttal OP.

This suggestion would hamper player's option of switching Clans. Take the existing Clan Key as an example to upscale. Every time you leave a clan and join another you have to spend even more Forma to get access to things you already had access too.

For example the Clan I'm a part of (Tenno Academy) is aimed at providing temporary housing to solo prefer players until if/ever they find a Clan they like. By making each member pay Forma for access to every part, this makes it less likely that people will want to ever switch clans after putting Forma down for access.

Do you count connectors in this?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Brasten

[Luxangel7]

I am going to make a slight rebuttal OP.

This suggestion would hamper player's option of switching Clans. Take the existing Clan Key as an example to upscale. Every time you leave a clan and join another you have to spend even more Forma to get access to things you already had access too.

 

This is a valid point, honestly this is something that would be balanced by DE. They would have to both judge and weigh the effects of making your unlocked access to rooms specific to one clan.

 

Considering that it may be seen as unfair, and it could potentially give too much power to clan members who have the power to kick a member out, then they most likely would make room unlocks universal across all clans.

 

Thank you for pointing that out, I hadn't considered that as fully as I should. :)

 

Edit: I've edited the OP accordingly, thanks again for helping me see that flaw in my reasoning. :)

 

Edit2: In response to your edited question, no I don't count connectors in my proposed system. Although that is just my personal belief as what should be done by DE. Without any numerical data that only they have, I can't say if making people donate 1 forma to access connectors or not can be included / removed.

Edited May 26, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[SymphNo9]

I understand what you're trying to say, but you are drawing a fine line between "accessing" and "enhancing" content. Catalysts and reactors are indeed a limit to accessing content. You are limiting access to a complete weapon. Same goes for forma.

 

And you can help your new friends in plenty of ways without them having forma. You can support them on missions they normally couldn't do on their own, help them to get the best gear/rewards against bosses and like I said above, take them on void runs with you.

 

Your point would have players have free access to everything in a dojo without having to spend any resources at all, as it is now. If you prefer it that way, that's your right, but the fact remains that it is entirely flawed in terms of business and in terms of gameplay balance and fairness.

 

I still fail to see how you can compare catalysts with formas. Formas completely blocks off access to content. Catalysts do not so. You can still run around with your Hek, Grakata, or Braton, and test and later decide which weapon is lucky to get a potatoe installed. See the difference?

 

I have no opinions in how flawed the current system is in terms of business, but in terms of gameplay; the forma fee is very bad design. By adding a fee wall from the moment you join a clan, is a big turn off, probably both for F2P players and those who despise RNG. Also, as more rooms are added, you are effectively making new members wasting their formas just to get up on the same progression level as the veteran members, as they could instead have contributed their formas into the new projects.

 

If the issue is just "no one should get a freeride", it would easily be solved by DE implementing a list of which members have contributed what and by how much. Then the leaders could regulate the activities by themselves and decide whether they care about it or not.

[ThePresident777]

THE INTENTION OF THIS THREAD IS TO HELP DE MAKE MORE MONEY  

(and fix the Dojo/clan dilemma for players)

 

Now before you go thinking that this is yet another "complaint" thread because of the title, please hear me out. I have two degrees in Economics and Marketing, and an MBA with specialization in General Finance and Management. I currently work for a multinational financial consulting firm in their department for marketing of international services and products.

 

This isn't to brag, or say that any of that automatically = "I'm right", it's just to establish that the purpose of me writing this thread is to highlight the very large marketing error that was made in this last update, bring to light the resulting devastating loss in potential profits, and provide my advice as how to correct and avoid such mistakes, now and in the future.

 

I really like this game, I think the devs are great, and I wish only the best for them and the game.

 

However, the clan dojo system should not have been released in its current state. By this I mean, specifically, the material requirements that are available for purchase: Forma.

 

The Problem(s):

 

Let me begin by saying that resource materials (ferrite, alloy etc etc) required for dojo construction suffer from the same problem that I will outline with forma, and could be resolved by the same solution I propose be applied to forma.

 

Currently a player who belongs to a smaller clan has absolutely no reason to spend the extravagant amounts of time and or money it would take to make even the most basic of structures, much less a complete dojo etc. Instead it is much easier to just join any of the very large clans and just get all the benefits without ever contributing anything. This, to put it mildly, is an ENORMOUS problem.

 

The result of this system is having a single product (forma) being bought a few times and its benefits being distributed among HUNDREDS of players for FREE.

 

Can you imagine If I could buy an Orokin Reactor and it allowed everyone in my clan to benefit from my purchase? No one would go buy reactors, they would just join a large clan and wait for others to buy reactors. Sound familiar?

 

This system, is not only completely flawed and incredibly limiting for smaller clans as so many have pointed out, but is also incredibly damaging to your profit margins on forma and this update in general. 

 

The solution: (applicable to resources as well, to solve the "scalable resources required" problem)

 

Everyone in a clan should be required to donate a minimum amount of 1 forma to access the benefits of certain rooms. Building new rooms should cost 1 forma.

 

That forma spent building the room does not enable the builder to access the room benefits as well. My suggestion is: 1 to build, 1 for the builder to access, like everyone else. This would give builders certain degrees of appreciation within the clan for their increased efforts, as well as be fair to the players and increase revenue for DE.

 

Edit: To clarify, you need to spend the forma to access the menus/research/dueling etc of the functional rooms. Once they are built you can still walk inside them and go "ooooo" and "aaaaah" without spending resources.

 

Positive Results:

 

1) Instead of each clan purchasing/using a maximum amount of "x" forma, you would have every single player that is in a clan purchasing/using "x" amount of forma to access all areas. This is an extremely important benefit. Instead of, lets say, 100 clans purchasing a limited amount of forma to create their dojo you would have your entire player base (millions?) of players spending forma to access the their dojo rooms.

 

2) Compounded profits: Along with every player in a clan spending forma to access rooms, you would have a drastic increase in the amount of clans themselves, thereby creating a second revenue stream of forma being used, as each individual clan must spend forma to build rooms in the first place.

 

2) Employing this system automatically resolves the need for "solo dojos" or whatever you may want to call it. Basically how some people were requesting, even in the livestream, some sort of dojo for solo players who don't want a clan.

 

3) People will "invest" in a clan they want to stick with. If they change to another clan, they have to purchase access to the rooms again. Creating a bond to a clan on the player side, and creating a further revenue stream for DE from players who do choose to switch to another clan.

 

Edit: I've decide to remove this part of the suggestion thanks to user "Brasten" helping me realize it's flawed because it could be unfair and give too much power to members of the clan who can kick others out of the clan, invalidating the forma/resources/effort they put into unlocking the rewards of certain rooms.

 

4) This system would allow you to balance "costs vs. customer satisfaction" by removing the forma requirement for rooms that have no function, such as hallways, connectors, elevators etc. and instead implementing forma costs for rooms such as labs, reactor room, oracle, etc. (rooms that don't need to be physically accessed such as reactor rooms could just have their forma cost added to a lab before being able to spend the forma to access that lab) This may seem like a drastic reduction in profit but is the only "loss" of income balanced with several increases in revenue quantity and sources outlined herein that easily outweigh this loss. 

 

Edit: Obviously I cannot say whether or not this point is entirely feasible, due to the fact that DE alone has the complete figures and without numeical data I can't say whether they can make the connectors forma free or 1 forma like other rooms. 

 

5) Last but certainly not least with this system clans will have thier true purpose fulfilled: that of being a place where friends and like minded players can play together, be helpful to each other, and form friendships in game, instead of just being a gargantuan clan for player #5,733 to join and wait until they can reap the benefits for free.

 

How to move forward from here:

 

My earnest and professional advice? Emergency recall.

 

Roll back the dojos and everything associated with them, refund all forma / resources spent on them so far and take the necessary time to implement this new system before releasing dojos again. Players will understand. Believe me. People may threaten to stop playing, delete their accounts, destroy the Eiffel tower and all the usual rage, but they will still play. Believe me.

 

This is absolutely necessary in order to both be fair to those who spent forma as well as maximize the positive effects of this system. (profits and playability for all)

 

For future releases, updates, etc that include or revolve around monetized items such as forma etc. I would make two very basic suggestions:

 

1) If you do not have someone on your staff who is a professional and has experience in marketing and economic paradigms, then I would hire someone as soon as possible.

 

2) If you do have someone who fulfills the role mentioned above, and they didn't advise you against the obvious mistakes in the current system and the resulting enormous profit loss, then I would suggest reevaluating that person and their position/role within the development of WARFRAME.

 

I promise I'm not trying to sound like the arrogant and ignorant people who yell "fire whoever was in charge of 'x' feature!!!" that sometimes you see on the forums, I'm just trying to give you my honest advice as politely as possible.

 

 

So in conclusion, thank you as always for all your hard work, I sincerely hope you will get the chance to read this and consider it on its merits, and I wish you all nothing but the best because as I said, that means I will get to play the best.

 

;)

 

 

TLDR: ...honestly...I don't think making a TLDR for this is even possible....  my apologies for the long post but it was necessary. :(

 

You've disparagingly referred to people as free loaders in a number of your posts and stated that freeloading is wrong.  That is an opinion.  It is subjective.

 

You claim to have economics and finance degrees but you do not provide any supporting evidence for your idea.  Without supporting evidence, your idea is speculation, not proven.

 

The current dojo costs are high which attracts the money of people who will pay it.  If they lower the dojo cost in the future then DE can acquire the money of people who wouldn't pay the high prices of the past.  In this way, DE can have money from all the price tiers.

 

How is your system better than that?  Many people would find your system expensive also.  And, those who would have paid more, would pay less.

 

What you are proposing is something like a flat tax.

[Luxangel7]

You've disparagingly referred to people as free loaders in a number of your posts and stated that freeloading is wrong.  That is an opinion.  It is subjective.

 

You claim to have economics and finance degrees but you do not provide any supporting evidence for your idea.  Without supporting evidence, your idea is speculation, not proven.

 

The current dojo costs are high which attracts the money of people who will pay it.  If they lower the dojo cost in the future then DE can acquire the money of people who wouldn't pay the high prices of the past.  In this way, DE can have money from all the price tiers.

 

How is your system better than that?  Many people would find your system expensive also.  And, those who would have paid more, would pay less.

 

What you are proposing is something like a flat tax.

 

I used the term "freeloader" to just define the behavior. It is obvious that my posts are not meant to insult anyone, so please don't misinterpret that aspect.

 

I only gave a little bit of background about myself for two reasons, first to explain that I wasn't just making another complaint thread, and secondly to explain that I'm not just talking about concepts that I thought up on my own, but that I've learned and put into practice.

 

"Freeloading" as you call it, in this case refers to a disproportionate majority of players being able to access rewards that others must pay high amounts of money for. Let's dispense with the moralistic qualities of this situation, you could believe it's fine, I would not, that is irrelevant.

 

What is relevant, is that from a business point of view DE is essentially giving away a product for free to a majority of players that is supposed to be either a rare farmed material or a purchased item. From a gameplay perspective, as I've mentioned before, there will be absolutely no incentive for smaller clan members to tough it out and build their own things. Just join a mega clan and mooch off of their in game accomplishments.

 

This is most certainly a flaw, if not "wrong" as you put it. And it is an objective one, when compared to the game systems and financial models they use to gain profit.

 

As I've said in previous posts, I don't need access to numerical data, because I am not arguing a mathematical formula. I am showing the flaw behind a conceptual system. When providing an argument for or against such a conceptual system, exact numbers are not required or necessary to reach a valid or plausible conclusion.

 

Lowering the price/material requirements in the future is also a perfectly viable alternative. It is quite possible that DE decided to release this dojo update as is and then later modify it because they knew that there would be a portion of fans willing and able to pay for it regardless of the high prices. However, if this is the case, it still doesn't resolve the issue. They will still be losing enormous quantities of profit currently and in the future, and players will still be able to get rewards without spending any resources.

 

Put simply, the problem is not the prices (although they are exceptionally high atm), but rather the price distribution.

[Bakim0n0]

To your first points, it seems to me that there is a divergence of opinions that we won't be able to reconcile. I'm sorry if you view my suggestions in that way, I've done my best in my OP and previous other posts to explain as best I could why your concerns would not come true. I think we will just have to disagree and leave it at that.

 

As to your other point. You are the one who used anecdotal evidence and hearsay about an anonymous 10 player clan having no problems. You consistently told others or implied that they were wrong because what they said was their opinion, all the while offering up nothing more than your own opinion. And even if this wasn't true, as you are no doubt going to believe, and another user had in fact responded to you in an offensive or snide manner, what do you hope to achieve by answering in kind? The only thing that will come of it is an escalation of insults.

 

We must have misunderstood each other, as I inferred that you thought the current system is fine. It's too bad you don't like my suggestions, but that is your right to have your opinion. As I said before, there's no hard feelings in disagreeing and leaving it at that. :)

"You are the one who used anecdotal evidence and hearsay about an anonymous 10 player clan having no problems"

A history lesson / a lesson about context perhaps?

 

 

I'm not complaining about not being able to make a clan overnight. It shouldn't take a small clan 2 years to get the materials either.

 

Many people have been farming for 18+ hours and still haven't gotten a key let alone forma. In it's current form it'll take months for a small clan that isn't buying plat/forma months to get the required forma to build a connector, an oracle, and a reactor. Assuming people are playing a reasonable amount of time a week (as in they have jobs so can only play an hour or two a day) you can easily triple the time required to farm the necessary forma. Secondly take a quick peek at the forum thread with all the lab research. While I'm fine it having a steep cost for research, the cost right now is just stupid. DE might as well give small clans the middle finger and tell us to gtfo.

So yes, pat yourself on the back, I'm going to jump out on a limb here and say you're either friends with Aven or you're singling me out because he doesn't disagree with your horrible suggestion. I never suggested my opinion was right or wrong when offering my opinion back, and I never once stated that my opinions where fact... actually I never once pretended my opinion was anything but.

I pointed out the serious flaws in your suggestion, another of which was mentioned before I made this post, and another player engaged and you singled out me for doing exactly what they were doing.

I admit I don't have a good idea as to what DE could do to address issues with smaller clans while still keeping Dojo / Clan centric content... Honestly I am not entirely sure that *should* be a thing exactly. I do feel it is a bit off to require so many plat encouraged purchases for each dojo part but I have not yet explored the content enough to start giving real feedback outside of pointing out obvious bugs and flaws.

It's fantastic that you think it's a good thing to force players to spend Forma to participate in clan content. You should use that marketing savvy and brainpower to actually look at previous games who pushed for that kind of behavior and what it did to communities in regards to player division and elitism as well as how long it took for games to crash and burn after implementing a direct division between paying and non-paying players.

Yes, void keys are much more easily obtained by paying players... but those paying players can BRING unpaid players with them and the void keys drop.

Right now some players can pay a lot while others abstain, but those guilds work together and the whole clan can push for content as compared to explicitly gating a clan within itself to lead to severe division and dissent amongst the ranks just because some players can access x rooms while others can't, and free players spend their precious forma to access a room and then a new room is built with different perks and they get stuck unable to get in and unmotivated to donate time and mats to build it.

The level of division between the actual playerbase in terms of paid / unpaid is really near nill. Paid players really have access to what, a few frames and a few weapons and easier access to void runs (that they can bring their unpaid clanmates / friends to I might add). The current disadvantage to being in a group with a paying player when you aren't one? Envy? At the end of the mission more powerful allies means YOU STILL WIN. What you're suggesting is regressive in terms of building a community.

[Woonagi]

I love this idea ! In my clan of 15 ppl i was the one who had to buy the 5 forma needed for the cross connector and boy did it hurt. Now, if what he suggested becomes true, it would regain some of my faith in DE after this whole ''forma'' incident

*edit maybe have a forced rotation where every clan member take turn to buy the forma ?

Edited May 26, 2013 by Woonagi

[Luxangel7]

"You are the one who used anecdotal evidence and hearsay about an anonymous 10 player clan having no problems"

A history lesson / a lesson about context perhaps?

 

 

 

So yes, pat yourself on the back, I'm going to jump out on a limb here and say you're either friends with Aven or you're singling me out because he doesn't disagree with your horrible suggestion. I never suggested my opinion was right or wrong when offering my opinion back, and I never once stated that my opinions where fact... actually I never once pretended my opinion was anything but.

I pointed out the serious flaws in your suggestion, another of which was mentioned before I made this post, and another player engaged and you singled out me for doing exactly what they were doing.

I admit I don't have a good idea as to what DE could do to address issues with smaller clans while still keeping Dojo / Clan centric content... Honestly I am not entirely sure that *should* be a thing exactly. I do feel it is a bit off to require so many plat encouraged purchases for each dojo part but I have not yet explored the content enough to start giving real feedback outside of pointing out obvious bugs and flaws.

It's fantastic that you think it's a good thing to force players to spend Forma to participate in clan content. You should use that marketing savvy and brainpower to actually look at previous games who pushed for that kind of behavior and what it did to communities in regards to player division and elitism as well as how long it took for games to crash and burn after implementing a direct division between paying and non-paying players.

Yes, void keys are much more easily obtained by paying players... but those paying players can BRING unpaid players with them and the void keys drop.

Right now some players can pay a lot while others abstain, but those guilds work together and the whole clan can push for content as compared to explicitly gating a clan within itself to lead to severe division and dissent amongst the ranks just because some players can access x rooms while others can't, and free players spend their precious forma to access a room and then a new room is built with different perks and they get stuck unable to get in and unmotivated to donate time and mats to build it.

The level of division between the actual playerbase in terms of paid / unpaid is really near nill. Paid players really have access to what, a few frames and a few weapons and easier access to void runs (that they can bring their unpaid clanmates / friends to I might add). The current disadvantage to being in a group with a paying player when you aren't one? Envy? At the end of the mission more powerful allies means YOU STILL WIN. What you're suggesting is regressive in terms of building a community.

 

I don't understand what you mean by a history lesson or a lesson in context. But let's just forget about it as it seems only fuel for a never ending back and forth.

 

I don't know Avenwing and I have no desire or intention to 'single you out' I assure you. I have no issue with someone having a divergent opinion on what I proposed, I even completely agreed with another user who kindly pointed out a flaw with my reasoning so I adjusted the OP. Like I said before several times, you're welcome to your opinion about why my suggestions shouldn't be implemented. I've already explained and defended my opinions, as have you with yours, so since we still don't see eye to eye let's just leave it at that, because I think you may have taken something personally, which wasn't my intention. 

 

I love this idea ! In my clan of 15 ppl i was the one who had to buy the 5 forma needed for the cross connector and boy did it hurt. Now, if what he suggested becomes true, it would regain some of my faith in DE after this whole ''forma'' incident

*edit maybe have a forced rotation where every clan member take turn to buy the forma ?

 

I'm glad you like the idea :) Haha the "Forma Incident". It sounds like a sci fi movie or weekend event title....only in this case...not so much fun. :/

Edited May 26, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[ThePresident777]

I used the term "freeloader" to just define the behavior. It is obvious that my posts are not meant to insult anyone, so please don't misinterpret that aspect.

 

I only gave a little bit of background about myself for two reasons, first to explain that I wasn't just making another complaint thread, and secondly to explain that I'm not just talking about concepts that I thought up on my own, but that I've learned and put into practice.

 

"Freeloading" as you call it, in this case refers to a disproportionate majority of players being able to access rewards that others must pay high amounts of money for. Let's dispense with the moralistic qualities of this situation, you could believe it's fine, I would not, that is irrelevant.

 

What is relevant, is that from a business point of view DE is essentially giving away a product for free to a majority of players that is supposed to be either a rare farmed material or a purchased item. From a gameplay perspective, as I've mentioned before, there will be absolutely no incentive for smaller clan members to tough it out and build their own things. Just join a mega clan and mooch off of their in game accomplishments.

 

This is most certainly a flaw, if not "wrong" as you put it. And it is an objective one, when compared to the game systems and financial models they use to gain profit.

 

As I've said in previous posts, I don't need access to numerical data, because I am not arguing a mathematical formula. I am showing the flaw behind a conceptual system. When providing an argument for or against such a conceptual system, exact numbers are not required or necessary to reach a valid or plausible conclusion.

 

Lowering the price/material requirements in the future is also a perfectly viable alternative. It is quite possible that DE decided to release this dojo update as is and then later modify it because they knew that there would be a portion of fans willing and able to pay for it regardless of the high prices. However, if this is the case, it still doesn't resolve the issue. They will still be losing enormous quantities of profit currently and in the future, and players will still be able to get rewards without spending any resources.

 

Put simply, the problem is not the prices (although they are exceptionally high atm), but rather the price distribution.

 

Hold on there, my post does not say "freeloading" anywhere in it.  It's freeloader as YOU call it. 

 

If I were to use a disparaging term to describe your behavior, would you accept it as merely a reference to your behavior?

 

You're argument should be able to stand on it's own merits.  Credentials are irrelevant here, and unverified.  I don't see what is to be gained from mentioning them if not to lend weight to a light argument.

 

But, if you want to drop the freeloader reference and credentials claims, that's fine by me.  If you want to focus on DE's profits, that is fine by me.

 

Moving on, you mention, "that from a business point of view DE is essentially giving away a product for free to a majority of players that is supposed to be either a rare farmed material or a purchased item".  Then, "From a gameplay perspective, as I've mentioned before, there will be absolutely no incentive for smaller clan members to tough it out and build their own things."  But, you do not show any relation between DE's profits and the behavior of smaller clans.  You do not show at what price the behavior of smaller clans match or exceed that of larger clans in terms of profit for DE.  As far as we know, DE could have priced dojo construction perfectly.

 

Conceptually, we could imagine many things.  But, in the end, profits are not conceptual, not when you want to maximize them.  You have not shown any evidence that the current price distribution produces less profit for DE than the one you propose.

Edited May 26, 2013 by ThePresident777

[Avenwing]

"You are the one who used anecdotal evidence and hearsay about an anonymous 10 player clan having no problems"

A history lesson / a lesson about context perhaps?

 

 

 

So yes, pat yourself on the back, I'm going to jump out on a limb here and say you're either friends with Aven or you're singling me out because he doesn't disagree with your horrible suggestion. I never suggested my opinion was right or wrong when offering my opinion back, and I never once stated that my opinions where fact... actually I never once pretended my opinion was anything but.

I pointed out the serious flaws in your suggestion, another of which was mentioned before I made this post, and another player engaged and you singled out me for doing exactly what they were doing.

I admit I don't have a good idea as to what DE could do to address issues with smaller clans while still keeping Dojo / Clan centric content... Honestly I am not entirely sure that *should* be a thing exactly. I do feel it is a bit off to require so many plat encouraged purchases for each dojo part but I have not yet explored the content enough to start giving real feedback outside of pointing out obvious bugs and flaws.

It's fantastic that you think it's a good thing to force players to spend Forma to participate in clan content. You should use that marketing savvy and brainpower to actually look at previous games who pushed for that kind of behavior and what it did to communities in regards to player division and elitism as well as how long it took for games to crash and burn after implementing a direct division between paying and non-paying players.

Yes, void keys are much more easily obtained by paying players... but those paying players can BRING unpaid players with them and the void keys drop.

Right now some players can pay a lot while others abstain, but those guilds work together and the whole clan can push for content as compared to explicitly gating a clan within itself to lead to severe division and dissent amongst the ranks just because some players can access x rooms while others can't, and free players spend their precious forma to access a room and then a new room is built with different perks and they get stuck unable to get in and unmotivated to donate time and mats to build it.

The level of division between the actual playerbase in terms of paid / unpaid is really near nill. Paid players really have access to what, a few frames and a few weapons and easier access to void runs (that they can bring their unpaid clanmates / friends to I might add). The current disadvantage to being in a group with a paying player when you aren't one? Envy? At the end of the mission more powerful allies means YOU STILL WIN. What you're suggesting is regressive in terms of building a community.

I have no idea who he is and I disagree strongly with his idea.

[Luxangel7]

Hold on there, my post does not say "freeloading" anywhere in it.  It's freeloader as YOU call it. 

 

If I were to use a disparaging term to describe your behavior, would you accept it as merely a reference to your behavior?

 

You're argument should be able to stand on it's own merits.  Credentials are irrelevant here, and unverified.  I don't see what is to be gained from mentioning them if not to lend weight to a light argument.

 

But, if you want to drop the freeloader reference and credentials claims, that's fine by me.  If you want to focus on DE's profits, that is fine by me.

 

Moving on, you mention, "that from a business point of view DE is essentially giving away a product for free to a majority of players that is supposed to be either a rare farmed material or a purchased item".  Then, "From a gameplay perspective, as I've mentioned before, there will be absolutely no incentive for smaller clan members to tough it out and build their own things."  But, you do not show any relation between DE's profits and the behavior of smaller clans.  You do not show at what price the behavior of smaller clans match or exceed that of larger clans in terms of profit for DE.  As far as we know, DE could have priced dojo construction perfectly.

 

Conceptually, we could imagine many things.  But, in the end, profits are not conceptual, not when you want to maximize them.  You have not shown any evidence that the current price distribution produces less profit for DE than the one you propose.

 

Look, there is no need to take anything personally. I used the term freeloader before because it was the first one that came to mind to describe someone who would join a clan and then "freeload" until the rewards they desired were completed and available. Several others in this thread have used other terms such as mooching, milking, etc. Where is your moral outrage for them? Honestly, the fact that you are so offended at the use of the word freeloader is really silly.

 

I have repeatedly said it was not my intention to offend anyone, I simply described a behavior of getting benefit at zero cost, if you take such offense with such a normal word as freeloader, then that is your problem, not mine. Or would you rather I refer to such a player every time as "a clan member who is receiving rewards at zero cost"? Honestly, let's keep the P.C. nonsense for the politicians.

 

I already explained to you why I mentioned my educational and professional background, if you choose to ignore my explanation, that is once again your prerogative.

 

My argument does stand on its own merits. Once again, as I have stated before, I am not arguing mathematical formulas or exact figures. I put forward a problem presented by an extremely basic tenet of consumerism. That being that a consumer will not pay for a good or service when they can receive the same good or service free of charge. Anecdotes and moralistic postulations about clan duty and altruism aside, this is a very basic principal which you cannot deny.

 

You choose to ignore my various explanations showing you and others previously how profits are indeed conceptual. You must have a business plan, among several other financial tools, in place in order to create a conceptual strategy in order to accrue profit. If we had numerical data then we could talk about exact numbers and how shifting one factor results in a modified outcome but it is not necessary here.

 

Here, instead I addressed the conceptual flaw in the current system. You continue to misunderstand the focus of my analysis. It was not big vs. small clan. Instead the focus was on how DE has applied a pricing distribution model that has only a percentage of players paying / contributing higher resource requirements while simultaneously missing out on the rest of the player base for profits, and also excluding them from gameplay features.

 

To further simplify this for you: If a lemonade stand were to charge only every 3rd customer for a lemonade, we could offer a conceptually factual and solid argument as to why that is a flawed system. I don't need to know if the lemonade drink costs 1$ or 100$. Since it is a system that does not optimize profits for the business, and at the same time provides inequality for the consumer, a conceptual profit analysis may be inferred by saying that it is flawed.

 

I hope this cleared up things for you.

Edited May 26, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[RealityMachina]

It's too bad you already have a job LuxAngel7.

 

DE really needs a replacement for Economy Dog.

[MJ12]

It's all too rich for my blood.

 

You're shifting the cost of forma.  How do you know people will pay it?   How can you know in advance which system will produce the greatest profits?

 

Because right now this is a classical economics situation. I know because I also have a degree in economics (mathematics-economics). This is a textbook Tragedy of the Commons situation.

 

Basically, in a tragedy of the commons, because things are 'free', people overuse them. A built building is totally free after the initial investment cost. This means that if you're in a small clan, the ideal economic behavior to do is to disband your clan and join a big top 3 clan with their stuff already built.

 

This encourages assimilation. As Dojo building choices increase and their size increases, this is further exacerbated until you may well have only one clan period. Worse is if enough people act like &*$$ economicus and realize that if they pay forma in, they gain nothing (since the building is available to all, thus everyone gets the same benefit), while if they use forma for their other stuff, they personally gain. Eventually, this means that the economically rational thing to do is never contribute forma.

 

Which means nothing gets built. That's the tragedy of the commons endgame, and it's only because most people playing don't understand economics outside of "common sense" economics that we're seeing anything else. However, as this develops you'll probably see guys flocking towards single large clans at the very least as a result of this tragedy of the commons situation. Honestly, DE, if your economics guys didn't catch this tragedy of the commons issue I really don't know what's up.

 

Furthermore it gets even worse. The materials/forma costs mean you have very high sunk costs for minimal benefit for small clans even ignoring forma. The most optimal thing for them to do is not touch dojos.

 

EDIT: Holy crap, this system censors scientific names for people? The censored word is actually a shorthand for 'hominid', BTW.

Edited May 26, 2013 by MJ12

[Raijinmeister]

Very smart to add a money wall on a f2p game.

Sarcarsm mode: on

Edited May 26, 2013 by Raijinmeister

[Luxangel7]

Very smart to add a money wall on a f2p game.

Sacarsm mode: on

 

Are you referring to my suggestion or to the current system?

 

Because currently there is already a money wall, except it is both flawed for DE profits as well as completely flawed for smaller clans in a gameplay perspective.

[Kyte]

EDIT: Holy crap, this system censors scientific names for people? The censored word is actually a shorthand for 'hominid', BTW.

Computers are not smart enough to judge a word from context. Given the most common interpretation is... not the scientific one, yeah. :V

Edited May 26, 2013 by Kyte

[Cpt_Cool]

This idea is by far the most reasonable suggestion i've seen on this forum.

I just want to leave some positive feedback and say that, as a not yet paying player, this would be more than acceptable for me.

It would make building a dojo feasible for everyone. While I think that you should spend some time to unlock the dojo-content as a f2p player, this system allows paying members to unlock everything right from the beginning if they choose to do so, whitout making it impossible for small clans to access everything in a reasonable timeframe.

I would also like to say I think it is admirable how calm and mature you manage this thread, considering the amount of criticism i see posted here.

Well, enough flattery, just stay positive.

 

P.S.: It is 6am in Germany right now and I've been up all night, so please excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes i might have made

[RealityMachina]

Are you referring to my suggestion or to the current system?

 

Because currently there is already a money wall, except it is both flawed for DE profits as well as completely flawed for smaller clans in a gameplay perspective.

This.

 

Frankly I can deal with Lux's proposed money wall, because at the worst "I need to buy all my forma to have access to the labs and dueling room because my luck sucks" case, if I did my math correctly, it has me spending just $10 on Warframe.

 

Whereas if, say, I had to chip in even just half of the forma required now for just the labs and Oracle in the dojos currently, I would be spending around $50 in order to get the plat required.

 

And of course, unlike the aforementioned $10, DE's only getting that $50 once. Like I get none of us want any sort of real "please pay us" parts of the game, but it's something that's pretty unavoidable unless you're Valve and have a money printer called Steam to keep afloat whatever F2P games you want.

 

And even then they introduced a bit more substantial form of microtransactions when the Mann vs Machine update hit. At the very least, DE minmizes its impact on all our wallets by keeping it in impulse buy range.

 

[/averagecanuckwhohasprobablyjustmangledeverybodyaboutwhatyou'retalkingabout]

Edited May 26, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Luxangel7]

It's too bad you already have a job LuxAngel7.

 

DE really needs a replacement for Economy Dog.

 

That would be a completely surreal experience, going to work for a company that makes a game you love haha. 

 

Because right now this is a classical economics situation. I know because I also have a degree in economics (mathematics-economics). This is a textbook Tragedy of the Commons situation.

 

Basically, in a tragedy of the commons, because things are 'free', people overuse them. A built building is totally free after the initial investment cost. This means that if you're in a small clan, the ideal economic behavior to do is to disband your clan and join a big top 3 clan with their stuff already built.

 

This encourages assimilation. As Dojo building choices increase and their size increases, this is further exacerbated until you may well have only one clan period. Worse is if enough people act like &*$$ economicus and realize that if they pay forma in, they gain nothing (since the building is available to all, thus everyone gets the same benefit), while if they use forma for their other stuff, they personally gain. Eventually, this means that the economically rational thing to do is never contribute forma.

 

Which means nothing gets built. That's the tragedy of the commons endgame, and it's only because most people playing don't understand economics outside of "common sense" economics that we're seeing anything else. However, as this develops you'll probably see guys flocking towards single large clans at the very least as a result of this tragedy of the commons situation. Honestly, DE, if your economics guys didn't catch this tragedy of the commons issue I really don't know what's up.

 

Furthermore it gets even worse. The materials/forma costs mean you have very high sunk costs for minimal benefit for small clans even ignoring forma. The most optimal thing for them to do is not touch dojos.

 

EDIT: Holy crap, this system censors scientific names for people? The censored word is actually a shorthand for 'hominid', BTW.

 

  Very good observations, I wish some of my professors in the past had your talent for clarity and simplicity in communicating a concept :P

 

This idea is by far the most reasonable suggestion i've seen on this forum.

I just want to leave some positive feedback and say that, as a not yet paying player, this would be more than acceptable for me.

It would make building a dojo feasible for everyone. While I think that you should spend some time to unlock the dojo-content as a f2p player, this system allows paying members to unlock everything right from the beginning if they choose to do so, whitout making it impossible for small clans to access everything in a reasonable timeframe.

I would also like to say I think it is admirable how calm and mature you manage this thread, considering the amount of criticism i see posted here.

Well, enough flattery, just stay positive.

 

P.S.: It is 6am in Germany right now and I've been up all night, so please excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes i might have made

 

I'm glad you liked the idea and I thank you for your opinions and kind words, I will indeed stay positive! :) (don't worry about spelling errors,you didn't make any, and you should see some of my cell phone text messages....*shivers in fear*) :P

 

This.

 

Frankly I can deal with Lux's proposed money wall, because at the worst "I need to buy all my forma to have access to the labs and dueling room because my luck sucks" case, if I did my math correctly, it has me spending just $10 on Warframe.

 

Whereas if, say, I had to chip in even just half of the forma required now for just the labs and Oracle in the dojos currently, I would be spending around $50 in order to get the plat required.

 

And of course, unlike the aforementioned $10, DE's only getting that $50 once. Like I get none of us want any sort of real "please pay us" parts of the game, but it's something that's pretty unavoidable unless you're Valve and have a money printer called Steam to keep afloat whatever F2P games you want.

 

And even then they introduced a bit more substantial form of microtransactions when the Mann vs Machine update hit. At the very least, DE minmizes its impact on all our wallets by keeping it in impulse buy range.

 

[/averagecanuckwhohasprobablyjustmangledeverybodyaboutwhatyou'retalkingabout]

 

I'm happy to see you got at the core of what I was saying, and don't worry I understood your examples, you didn't mangle anything. ;D

Edited May 26, 2013 by LuxAngel7

[ThePresident777]

Look, there is no need to take anything personally. I used the term freeloader before because it was the first one that came to mind to describe someone who would join a clan and then "freeload" until the rewards they desired were completed and available. Several others in this thread have used other terms such as mooching, milking, etc. Where is your moral outrage for them? Honestly, the fact that you are so offended at the use of the word freeloader is really silly.

 

I have repeatedly said it was not my intention to offend anyone, I simply described a behavior of getting benefit at zero cost, if you take such offense with such a normal word as freeloader, then that is your problem, not mine. Or would you rather I refer to such a player every time as "a clan member who is receiving rewards at zero cost"? Honestly, let's keep the P.C. nonsense for the politicians.

 

I already explained to you why I mentioned my educational and professional background, if you choose to ignore my explanation, that is once again your prerogative.

 

My argument does stand on its own merits. Once again, as I have stated before, I am not arguing mathematical formulas or exact figures. I put forward a problem presented by an extremely basic tenet of consumerism. That being that a consumer will not pay for a good or service when they can receive the same good or service free of charge. Anecdotes and moralistic postulations about clan duty and altruism aside, this is a very basic principal which you cannot deny.

 

You choose to ignore my various explanations showing you and others previously how profits are indeed conceptual. You must have a business plan, among several other financial tools, in place in order to create a conceptual strategy in order to accrue profit. If we had numerical data then we could talk about exact numbers and how shifting one factor results in a modified outcome but it is not necessary here.

 

Here, instead I addressed the conceptual flaw in the current system. You continue to misunderstand the focus of my analysis. It was not big vs. small clan. Instead the focus was on how DE has applied a pricing distribution model that has only a percentage of players paying / contributing higher resource requirements while simultaneously missing out on the rest of the player base for profits, and also excluding them from gameplay features.

 

To further simplify this for you: If a lemonade stand were to charge only every 3rd customer for a lemonade, we could offer a conceptually factual and solid argument as to why that is a flawed system. I don't need to know if the lemonade drink costs 1$ or 100$. Since it is a system that does not optimize profits for the business, and at the same time provides inequality for the consumer, a conceptual profit analysis may be inferred by saying that it is flawed.

 

I hope this cleared up things for you.

 

My posts are too clear and concise for you to be falsly ascribing notions to me on account of them.  I never said anything about being, or not being, offended with the term freeloader.  It is very clear that I think that your persistent use of the term shows a moralistic distraction from your stated claim of wanting to increase DE's profits.

 

You have not shown that selling dojo rooms as a luxury items produces less profit than selling them as mass produced items.

 

The whole issue of free loading is a side show.  It's like taking issue with a mansion owner for letting people into their mansion for free.  The important question is, do I make more money selling mansions or do I make more money selling trailer homes, or sky scrapers, or ........

 

Incidentally, although forma is expensive for most people, the rest of the materials are too expensive in time for people who can afford forma.  There is more to contribute besides forma, things too expensive for those who can afford forma.  So, free loading does not apply here.

Edited May 26, 2013 by ThePresident777