So What Exactly Was The Point Of The Syndicates?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

 They were a stepping stone

That doesn't even make sense. Also I could not possibly care less about the characters or "lore" in Warframe.

[Uhkretor]

... it doesn't make sense where?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

... it doesn't make sense where?

At all.

[Uhkretor]

What, them being stepping stones?

 

... Might not make any sense at all for you, but that's their purpose and exactly how they work... so, its true.

[Pizzarugi]

have you ever used the brakk? its on paper dps only shows thru if you find a lv 300 enemy and politely ask them to deep throat your brakk instead of shooting your face. frankly if your more than 5m away brakks dps is less than a 4th of its listed value due to its HUGE spread and near instant fall off damage. I own a 5 forma brakk and let me tell you I havent used it since it got its nerf because no frame does well 3m away from the lv 90+ enemies the brakk is intended to kill.

I use the brakk all the time, you can check my profile in-game (most used weapon is the brakk). I switched back to it after synoid gammacor got nerfed. You can say what you want about the falloff damage, but I'll still have ammo for it at that enemy level while you're scrambling desperately to find more drops even with ammo mutation and pistol scavenger.

A single pistol ammo drop can give the brakk 4 reloads and can reload 42 more times before being depleted, meanwhile you need 8 drops (varies depending on mutation, pistol scavenger and increased clip mods) to reload the synoid once and can only be reloaded 3 more times before being depleted. What weapon do you think is going to still remain useful in high level missions, when enemies require more than 1 second of holding the fire button down, or pressing it more than 2 times to kill them?

When you factor in the ammo economy, the brakk is going to always win in endgame viability, hands down. The brakk can very easily sustain itself without needing mutation mods and a pistol scavenger aura. And since it doesn't need a mutation mod, you can install other things to make it useful like a pierce mod or another element.

The only problem I can see the brakk having, in the long run, is its inability to break nullifier bubbles.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Pizzarugi

[Bobtm]

That doesn't even make sense. Also I could not possibly care less about the characters or "lore" in Warframe.

To be perfectly honest I too don't care at all about lore.  Storylines in games can be interesting but I'm the type of player who plays solely for the gameplay aspect.  However you and I aren't the only people who do play games, and there are a very, very, very large number of player who do love storyline/lore in any games they play.

 

As far as the stepping stone thing, it's very clear what I mean by this, it's the beginning of a system which fleshes out the Warframe universe as it were.  It also allows (or did) for the addition of long term goals to be added to the game.  However the problem there is a vast majority of the veteran players are jaded and just want everything that's new to be obtainable immediately, and that creates a disjunction from the design aspect.

 

Just because you personally don't jive with what they are, doesn't mean they're automatically pointless.  By proxy that would be like me saying "What's the point of automatic rifles?" merely because I personally do not like automatic rifles.  Games are intended for an audience of players, not just a few.  So expecting to feel immersed in every little bit and part of a game is just asking for disappointment.  Enjoy what you like, and skip on things you don't.  Especially don't expect any game to cater to your every whim.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Bobtm

[Uhkretor]

(...)

It also allows (or did) for the addition of long term goals to be added to the game.  However the problem there is a vast majority of the veteran players are jaded and just want everything that's new to be obtainable immediately, and that creates a disjunction from the design aspect.

(...)

 

Immediately? That's late for them already. They want it for the last century or so.

[magusat999]

The higher the level of MOB we face, the less validity these pro-nerf arguments make. I say MOB, not ENEMY, because you folk talk like we are fighting one enemy at a time, in a neat single file line. Like the enemy is waiting until it is their turn and they politely step forward when it is their turn to battle. Clearly that is not the case. We fight SURROUNDED by enemies. Enemies are hiding while sapping our energy. Enemies are hiding and buffing other enemies. You think your fighting a level 50 charger, but he is effectively level 200 with multiple buffs - and your nerfed weapon can't do jack daniel to it. No - your fighting 5-6 of those suckers - and your energy has been sucked away so that isn't going to help. You can't dodge because Chargers circle around and hit you in the back... What do you need? Reliable, fast killing weapons. The Syndicate augments helped get us there, but one by one they are being taken away. Just because it has not been touched yet, doesn't mean it wont (and it will if tit is any good). A whole lot of work for nothing.

 

And we cannot damn people because they play with a certain focus. All DE can do, without oppression, is make a game - they cannot, and should not dictate what people get out of it or what aspects of the game people should like. ANd because you don't care for a game style doesn't mean your game style is right - it's right for YOU - and another gamer's style is just as right for THEM. SO WHAT if someone is a farmer in the game? That's another player making Warframe more viable. And if DE didn't design the game so that farming and camping was possible then people wouldn't be able to do it. If you don't like it, then YOU don't do it - but don't act like it's some type of humanitarian effort because you can't see why other people need resources or do not want to play slow - that's just YOUR CHOICE and it's no better or any more justified than anyone elses.

[Uhkretor]

... Actually, I say "enemy" because we have 4 AI factions on the Codex. Any of them is an enemy... And this game earned the right for me to call the AI units as 'enemy'.

 

... But hey, I could say the same for anyone else that says "mob" to reffer them since~... Those that usually call enemies as "mobs" usually come from WoW and games from the same genre.

 

Both mean the same thing, but only those that actually come from that type of games have the reaction you just had, magusat999... Those that don't see synonyms as they are... synonyms...

 

EDIT: I call opponent Tenno as "Mobs" because they are worse than the AI units, 90% of the times... But then again, only happens when PvP is involved.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Uhkretor

[magusat999]

... Actually, I say "enemy" because we have 4 AI factions on the Codex. Any of them is an enemy... And this game earned the right for me to call the AI units as 'enemy'.

 

... But hey, I could say the same for anyone else that says "mob" to reffer them since~... Those that usually call enemies as "mobs" usually come from WoW and games from the same genre.

 

Both mean the same thing, but only those that actually come from that type of games have the reaction you just had, magusat999... Those that don't see synonyms as they are... synonyms...

 

EDIT: I call opponent Tenno as "Mobs" because they are worse than the AI units, 90% of the times... But then again, only happens when PvP is involved.

My comment wasn't specific to what you said, sorry if you felt that way. And it also was meant to address the scene people draw - not the terminology per se. People write these damning posts, "advising" people how to deal with a difficult enemy, as if we are one on one with an enemy like a Street Fighter game. We face MOBS of enemies - not AN ENEMY. ANd a lot of the time there is so much activity going on you cannot even see this "enemy" to focus all your attention on it.

 

For example - if your on the tileset of old Xini (same tileset the gorgon Wraith alert is on) and someone is protecting the pod with World on Fire, and your in the middle of it - you cant see jack shift. That "enemy" people draw scenes about as if its just them two in a bathtub, might as well be invisible - not to mention there are MANY of them, not just one. Lets not pretend that the lame advice given so much of the time is in any way usable - its just a flame war device...

[Uhkretor]

Nah, I know it wasn't specific. I just shared my personal view on the matter.

 

Also, "mobs of enemies" would be perfect if this had as many incoming enemies as Serious Sam, which it doesn't. I tend to see them as small groups... squads, teams, whatever fits the profile.

[Bobtm]

The higher the level of MOB we face, the less validity these pro-nerf arguments make. I say MOB, not ENEMY, because you folk talk like we are fighting one enemy at a time, in a neat single file line. Like the enemy is waiting until it is their turn and they politely step forward when it is their turn to battle. Clearly that is not the case. We fight SURROUNDED by enemies. Enemies are hiding while sapping our energy. Enemies are hiding and buffing other enemies. You think your fighting a level 50 charger, but he is effectively level 200 with multiple buffs - and your nerfed weapon can't do jack daniel to it. No - your fighting 5-6 of those suckers - and your energy has been sucked away so that isn't going to help. You can't dodge because Chargers circle around and hit you in the back... What do you need? Reliable, fast killing weapons. The Syndicate augments helped get us there, but one by one they are being taken away. Just because it has not been touched yet, doesn't mean it wont (and it will if tit is any good). A whole lot of work for nothing.

 

To focus partly on the point I bolded/underlined above in your post, there's no such thing as "can't dodge" in Warframe.  You can always dodge or could've always dodged.  Clarifying that, the only time you can't do a dodge is when you're staggered or knocked down, however you can avoid those very staggers or knockcowns by dodging.  Ergo, evasion is key and is never an impossibility.

 

Now covering the part I only underlined, you make it sound like these mods are straight make or break.  Excalibur isn't reverted into a helpless child by this change.  Yes, it does limit the overall effectiveness of just one ability, however the frame is capable of more than endlessly running around in his EB state.  If one would like to make use of a syndicate effect they can merely drop out of EB, then pop it once more after they've utilized the effect.  This actually plays into a massively underlying problem which is held onto by a staggeringly massive amount of this game's playerbase at large;  absolute rigidity.

 

Players seem to be under the influence of the idea that all things should be able to be approached in one exact manner that they choose, and that they can continue to use that one thing forever without changing.  This leads into the next part of your post.

 

 And we cannot damn people because they play with a certain focus. All DE can do, without oppression, is make a game - they cannot, and should not dictate what people get out of it or what aspects of the game people should like. ANd because you don't care for a game style doesn't mean your game style is right - it's right for YOU - and another gamer's style is just as right for THEM. SO WHAT if someone is a farmer in the game? That's another player making Warframe more viable. And if DE didn't design the game so that farming and camping was possible then people wouldn't be able to do it. If you don't like it, then YOU don't do it - but don't act like it's some type of humanitarian effort because you can't see why other people need resources or do not want to play slow - that's just YOUR CHOICE and it's no better or any more justified than anyone elses.

 

While player agency is indeed a good thing we must also keep in mind that there is such a thing as too much choice.  And you are correct that we as individual players cannot accurately call the playstyles of others "wrong" but there is someone who can indeed do just that, DE.  It's clear and open that DE has made moves against the use of "homer's drinking bird" styled gameplay.  This does in fact mean that, in the context of Warframe, that is is wrong.  It is up to they, those who develope a given game to make the underlying choices which dictate wherein the players are able to operate.  This is why those of us who tend to be on the "pro-balance" side of these arguments have a fairly strong stance.  The developers themselves share our general mindset on the issue.

 

As an example let's look at a hypothetical stealth game.  In this game the player automatically fails a given mission if they are detected.  Now let's take a hypothetical player (I'm gonna name him Ronnie) and throw him into this game.  Ronnie is the type of player who's playstyle lives and breaths bullets, he's a run & gun fanatic and hates taking things with a metered approach.  Now Ronnie tries playing this game and immediately and constantly fails, he then heads to this game's official forums and makes his voice heard.  He wishes to see his play style catered to, and he is then told that his playstyle is wrong by the masses online.

 

Thing is, while playstyles cannot inherently be wrong in a broad way, they absolutely can be wrong when one takes into account a given game's design.  Someone can't take two turns in a row in Chess, a player can't take an endless amount of time to place Tetris pieces, I can't go full ham in purist stealth games, etc.  A game and by proxy its developers decide what playstyles a game caters to, and nobody else.  They will of course look at feedback and use it to help them make decisions, but it is always their say.

 

Does this mean every call for a nerf on something is right, absolutely not.  In fact most calls for nerfs/changes/rebalances are, at best, silly.  This is precisly why DE doesn't just listen to everyone, look at the Boltor Prime.  It's been left untouched for ages despite being popular, easy to utilize, and powerful.  That's because it still fits into their intended game balance, and that's the end all be all here.

 

If one looks at the ways in which DE has developed Warframe, changes, additions, buffs, and nerfs, they can make safe inferences on what types of playstyles they intend to cater towards.  Rather than drone on endlessly I'll focus on what I left off at above there;  "Players using one "their most favored" approach forever without being deterred."  Look at the Synoid Gammacore, it's still equally as strong as it was before, but now it isn't infinitely sustainable.  Rather than accept this and use it alongside a primary many just dump the weapon.  If one merely uses it then swaps out and lets it replenish ammo passively it still is a relaiable weapon for when you want to kill something accurately and swiftly.  Pistol ammo isn't some rare resource when on endless missions.

 

This also applies entirely and directly to the EB situation with syndicate mods.  By turning off EB they can still make use of the mods, then they can return to using EB.  But some players want to remain rigid in their style and refuse to do otherwise.  While their playstyle isn't inherently wrong, it isn't automatically correct for Warframe.

______________________________________________

 

Anyways to end with something which I tend to do a lot with these sorts of posts, none of us are correct.  We're all here to provide feedback, and that's just what we do.  It's up to DE to make the real calls on how the game developes, and they do this based on player feedback, data collection, and their own intended design concept for the game.

[Uhkretor]

^ THIS ^

[Uhkretor]

(...)
And we cannot damn people because they play with a certain focus. All DE can do, without oppression, is make a game - they cannot, and should not dictate what people get out of it or what aspects of the game people should like. ANd because you don't care for a game style doesn't mean your game style is right - it's right for YOU - and another gamer's style is just as right for THEM. SO WHAT if someone is a farmer in the game? That's another player making Warframe more viable. And if DE didn't design the game so that farming and camping was possible then people wouldn't be able to do it. If you don't like it, then YOU don't do it - but don't act like it's some type of humanitarian effort because you can't see why other people need resources or do not want to play slow - that's just YOUR CHOICE and it's no better or any more justified than anyone elses.

... Ok, for arguments sake, lets assume that you're a farmer/grinder. The fact that DE makes any kind of adjustments is the least of your concerns. You have a reasonably high amount of weaponry at your disposal, you have a high array of mods you can choose to use. The game offers a huge amount of freedom and customization for you to switch equipment and/or change mods or adapt your playing style to fit the "new" while keeping the essence of your playstyle in full...

... I can tell you for sure that, as a hardcore grinder, it isn't hard to adapt to changes - any change - unless you are fully dependant on strict builds to actually be able to play. When that happens, I usually say to "kick the table 180º". Revolutionize your own playstyle, your equipment, your warframe, your mod choice, whatever needs to be done. Take my example, I see people using lots and lots of rare mods... But I'm 3x more effective than them with the basic common mods. The basic mods...! 90% of my mods aren't even rare and most of them aren't even that good...

Here's an example of when I needed to revolutionize my playstyle - Solar Rail Conflicts. Doing my first Solar Rail Conflict was, at the lack of a better word, shocking. The change of pace was enormous. I still managed to complete the objective successfully, but it was basically a world of hurt. My 2nd attempt at a Solar Rail Conflict, I automatically flipped my whole playstyle 180º without touching my equipment, warframe and/or mods. The end result was indeed shocking... for them. They never expected a single Tenno, with practically the worst equipment in the game, handle a team of 8 expert PvPers defending the Solar Rail AND win... I was thrown with abilities, arrows, viral crap from one of the Infested Tech weapons, you name it. Did I get killed? no. Did I get damaged? A lot, since they were experts. Was it easy? no, it wasn't. But adapting my playstyle solved the problem presented by that change of pace.

You probably need to do something like this as well, but adapting isn't easy... No playstyle is wrong, what makes it wrong is when a fellow player -imposes- his/her playstyle on you. Just for the record, I'm not imposing anything at all, just saying what you can do. Edited August 16, 2015 by Uhkretor

[Inertzia]

Melee weapon mods grant Excal's Ult some nice effects and get people to use underpowered and under represented weapons - nerfed

 

This sentence...

 

USE

verb (used with object), used, using.

1. to employ for some purpose; put into service; make use of:

    to use a knife.

NOT to carry it around and abuse the fact that it can use a mod that helps my ulti and not even hit something with it

[(PSN)gino1313]

It seems like I am just wasting my time grinding rep in them for no reason and wasting some hard to come by prime parts for absolutely no reason.  Hell, the annoying hit squads, that don't even drop anything worth having, are making them more of a hassle than a help.

The hit squads would be alright if they had 70% drop rates(for a full hatred hit squad, when like 12 come for you) for their selective specters, and you could deploy one specter per syndicate. Right now though they are pretty useless.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

-snip-

If you have something productive to add then do so. I am not in the mood to get in a pointless flame war with your alt account.

 

The hit squads would be alright if they had 70% drop rates(for a full hatred hit squad, when like 12 come for you) for their selective specters, and you could deploy one specter per syndicate. Right now though they are pretty useless.

Almost anything would make them better. Hell, just add the drops from the other assassins to their pools (dread, hate, brakk parts, etc).

[Inertzia]

If you have something productive to add then do so. I am not in the mood to get in a pointless flame war with your alt account.

 

Almost anything would make them better. Hell, just add the drops from the other assassins to their pools (dread, hate, brakk parts, etc).

I don't know who you are talking to but he must be very dedicated with his alt account since this alt account is MR13

[Uhkretor]

(...)

Almost anything would make them better. Hell, just add the drops from the other assassins to their pools (dread, hate, brakk parts, etc).

 

... Any particular reason why you would want an easy way to get the stuff you can't seem to get from other "assassins"? Because that statemente reeks of personal interest.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

... Any particular reason why you would want an easy way to get the stuff you can't seem to get from other "assassins"? Because that statemente reeks of personal interest.

It would make them worth bothering with.  They still wouldn't be the best solution for getting those items because their drop pools would be diluted with all of the parts from all of the assassins plus their own specter drops.

[TheBrsrkr]

There's one thing that's starting to really bother me about DE. They can nerf something that gets popular in about 1-2 weeks easily, but how long did it take to buff shotguns? Something like 6 months right? I swear I remember them touching on shotguns and sniper rifles near the beginning of the year. They waste no time tearing something down, but to modify 6 or so weapons takes half a year. I expect balance to be a ton of give and take, as do most people. However, it feels like there's no end to the taking, and the 'give' is akin to a scrap of food falling from their plate.

It's a lot easier to break something than to build it.

[Bobtm]

It would make them worth bothering with.  They still wouldn't be the best solution for getting those items because their drop pools would be diluted with all of the parts from all of the assassins plus their own specter drops.

 

Adding the drops from other assassins to the Syndicate hit squads would be an interesting change.  Like you noted it'd be a much more diluted pool as oppossed to the specific assassins for each of the noted drops so it isn't something that would "break things" from the way I see it.

 

It's not a change that I'd deem "necessary" but I also don't think it would be a change for the worse at all.  Nothing wrong with a light touch of more variety when looking towards those assassin drops.

[TwiceDead]

 

Tower keys - nerfed

 

Nice little arm laser - nerfed

 

Greedy pull finally comes along and give Mag some much needed team utility - nerfed

 

Hydroid has a nice mod that helps farming - nerfed

 

Melee weapon mods grant Excal's Ult some nice effects and get people to use underpowered and under represented weapons - nerfed

Tower Keys are still plenty, and not all that hard to get, and if you want to play a specific mode, hook up the recruiting chat for 5 seconds and a message will pop-up where someone hosts the game you want. 

Synoid Gammacor is still powerful, and I still see people use it, granted it's now a perfectly accurate burst-weapon than a forever-lasting constant death/nuke-lazer, but it will still last you long-term as long as you are managing your ammo-supply a teeny bit. 

 

Don't know about Greedy Pull. Never used it because I never really use Mag. 

 

Hydroid still has a nice mod that helps with farming, and that is a problem. No frame should be delegated to farming duty, Nekros and his Desecrate is already bad enough as these frames won't be chosen for anything but their ability to squeeze enemies for more loot, rather for the interesting concept behind them and their kit's capabilities. 

 

It seems like I am just wasting my time grinding rep in them for no reason and wasting some hard to come by prime parts for absolutely no reason.  Hell, the annoying hit squads, that don't even drop anything worth having, are making them more of a hassle than a help.

 

I am sure someone is going to point out some augment mod that they still find useful, but I have ZERO doubt in my mind that if it becomes popular then it to will be nerfed into the ground.

 

Seriously DE, you have made the entire system pointless and killed any faith I have in the system.  Why would I grind or trade plat for a mod that is most likely going to be nerfed as soon as it becomes popular? Seriously, stop equating "popular" with "needs nerfed."

 

... Pff, I can't be assed, just going to leave this here:
 

muh exploits

[(PSN)iProdigy99]

Really? Desecrated weren't you the troll who wouldn't stop saying that the Zephyr + Tonkor combo should be nerfed yet you went ahead and made a thread like this anyway complaining about things like that..... you people confuse me no one is ever happy in this community and those folks are frankly very stupid for such a thing

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Really? Desecrated weren't you the troll who wouldn't stop saying that the Zephyr + Tonkor combo should be nerfed yet you went ahead and made a thread like this anyway complaining about things like that..... you people confuse me no one is ever happy in this community and those folks are frankly very stupid for such a thing

You're reading comprehension skills need some work if you think I said they should be nerfed, and that has nothing to do with this thread so stop trying to derail it. Thanks.

-snip-

They were still nerfed. You think it is reasonable; I don't.

 

As to your last comment, I reply:

"muh parroted responses that don't actually address the issue"