Giving Enemy Max Levels Will Stop The Power Creep

[AMDMAD]

All i hear is complainment of how op everything is thus making DE

making bad desicions as nerfing stuff like upcoming multishot nerf.

However that is not the true problem , the problem is that they cant

have a ceiling to see how op something is or is not .

What i am saying is without have a top level enemies can reach it

is imposible to balance ANYTHING because u cant balance infinity.

 

My suggestion is simple by just giving enemies a top amount of level

and stats (like armor / health etc ) we will be able to have a comparable

meter on how op are trully are or are not.

 

For example if a max level Grineer at 150 level has 50000 armor/health

and boltor prime will do that damage in 1 shot it is clearly op but if it takes

a mag with an optimal build then it will be more balanced wise vs grineer.

 

That way we can have more weapons in groups of top/low / mid tier etc and

able to balance more the damage of the enemies and the damage of our frames

resoluting is much more interesting ways to make game fun and rewarding

It can also help raids because there u can surpass the top level of the normal missions

and have even more challenging enemies.

 

Thus instead of nerfing everything like everyone suggests to (at least that is who DE hears most)

give proper and actual ideas instead of band aids.Because that is the core problem and not the mods

Edited September 4, 2015 by AMDMAD

[(PSN)Ninja_Reaper_916]

Makes since

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

been saying this for quite awhile

 

+1

[AMDMAD]

Makes sence

Which is rare in these forums . All cries for nerfs but no one sees the true problem

Edited September 4, 2015 by AMDMAD

[esapto]

what's needed is just to balance the game around certain enemy level, lets say 80(based on trials,but it can still go beyond this on endless missions), this would require a rebalance of mods, weapons, abilities and enemies.

[AMDMAD]

what's needed is just to balance the game around certain enemy level, lets say 80(based on trials,but it can still go beyond this on endless missions), this would require a rebalance of mods, weapons, abilities and enemies.

I agree with u but that would provide a better stability of weapons and frames being released in the future and not be nerfed after ppl had invest in them.

Thus giving warframe more solid foundations

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

what's needed is just to balance the game around certain enemy level, lets say 80(based on trials,but it can still go beyond this on endless missions), this would require a rebalance of mods, weapons, abilities and enemies.

Wrong.  Balancing around level 80 when level 9999 enemies exist is a bad idea.  You need a level cap and then balance around making that cap tough but fair.

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

I'm not sure what the point of this game is without having fun with friends and trying to do the most damage possible with the guns and mods you have. My opinion anyway.

[AMDMAD]

Wrong.  Balancing around level 80 when level 9999 enemies exist is a bad idea.  You need a level cap and then balance around making that cap tough but fair.

Level cap should be higher like 150 but i agree on other points he/she made in her/his post

[AMDMAD]

I'm not sure what the point of this game is without having fun with friends and trying to do the most damage possible with the guns and mods you have. My opinion anyway.

But this way you will ahve more fun since u can run missions more doing the best possible damage vs enemies . No more forced CP to go at waht level u want to . U get ur weapon add the mods for best damage and go in the mission

[(PSN)DBR87]

Wrong.  Balancing around level 80 when level 9999 enemies exist is a bad idea.  You need a level cap and then balance around making that cap tough but fair.

 

But no one is going to ever see level 9999 enemies. It is next to impossible to go that far in an endless mission to achieve that.

 

Right now, there is a soft cap on enemy level. My guess is that it is about lvl 150-180 because that is the highest level heavy gunner I have seen.

 

While a hard enemy level cap for enemies could be a solution to enemy scaling it also creates a progression problem. The reason why nearly every MMO has a level increase because there comes a point the player reaches that max level and gets that end game gear and that's it.... They one shot anything less than a Raid Boss and they have the best gear for that level. An expansion is released and enemy level rises and the player grinds for new gear and their old gear becomes obsolete in most cases.

 

That is how MMOs evolve. Putting a hard level cap of 150 on enemies is going to limit game progression in the future. They're going to have to give players a new obtainable level of power and create enemies to use that power on.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

But no one is going to ever see level 9999 enemies. It is next to impossible to go that far in an endless mission to achieve that.

 

Right now, there is a soft cap on enemy level. My guess is that it is about lvl 150-180 because that is the highest level heavy gunner I have seen.

 

While a hard enemy level cap for enemies could be a solution to enemy scaling it also creates a progression problem. The reason why nearly every MMO has a level increase because there comes a point the player reaches that max level and gets that end game gear and that's it.... They one shot anything less than a Raid Boss and they have the best gear for that level. An expansion is released and enemy level rises and the player grinds for new gear and their old gear becomes obsolete in most cases.

 

That is how MMOs evolve. Putting a hard level cap of 150 on enemies is going to limit game progression in the future. They're going to have to give players a new obtainable level of power and create enemies to use that power on.

Then the cap should be lower.  There shouldn't be a level of enemy that is impossible. 

 

The entire point of balancing around a hard cap is so that you do NOT one shot everything with zero effort.

 

What you are describing/promoting is power creep; that's the entire thing the thread is about avoiding.  New gear should be side-grades, not up-grades, and you never have to raise the level cap.

[AMDMAD]

But no one is going to ever see level 9999 enemies. It is next to impossible to go that far in an endless mission to achieve that.

 

Right now, there is a soft cap on enemy level. My guess is that it is about lvl 150-180 because that is the highest level heavy gunner I have seen.

 

While a hard enemy level cap for enemies could be a solution to enemy scaling it also creates a progression problem. The reason why nearly every MMO has a level increase because there comes a point the player reaches that max level and gets that end game gear and that's it.... They one shot anything less than a Raid Boss and they have the best gear for that level. An expansion is released and enemy level rises and the player grinds for new gear and their old gear becomes obsolete in most cases.

 

That is how MMOs evolve. Putting a hard level cap of 150 on enemies is going to limit game progression in the future. They're going to have to give players a new obtainable level of power and create enemies to use that power on.

Sure there are challenges along the way but they must start from somewhere right?

[AMDMAD]

Then the cap should be lower.  There shouldn't be a level of enemy that is impossible. 

 

The entire point of balancing around a hard cap is so that you do NOT one shot everything with zero effort.

 

What you are describing/promoting is power creep; that's the entire thing the thread is about avoiding.  New gear should be side-grades, not up-grades, and you never have to raise the level cap.

The level cap would only raised in raids to give a more challenging feel or dont

increase level but increase AI smartnes which would make them extremly

challenging without overpassing the cap level.TO sum up dumb AI in normal version

extremly intelligent AI in raids etc

[(PSN)DBR87]

Then the cap should be lower.  There shouldn't be a level of enemy that is impossible. 

 

The entire point of balancing around a hard cap is so that you do NOT one shot everything with zero effort.

 

What you are describing/promoting is power creep; that's the entire thing the thread is about avoiding.  New gear should be side-grades, not up-grades, and you never have to raise the level cap.

 

Believe me, no one is "one shotting" everything in the game, currently. Highest level enemy I seen in Warframe from some youtuber better than I was lvl 180. Don't quote me on this but I believe it was said that DE releases new weapons with the intent of making lvl 40 enemies fun to engage, basically late mid game. One I am "describing/promoting" is the progression philosophy seen in nearly every other moden MMO from Destiny, to WoW, to DFO, to Ever Quest. They start with a level 60 player cap and a level 80 enemy cap. Players reach that level and one shot anything lower than lvl 50 and continually run lvl 80 dungeons with increasing efficiency. New content is released pushing player cap to lvl 80 and dungeon/enemy cap to lvl 100. This new content makes most of your old gear obsolete and you grind for better stuff. The cycle continues until the game dies or, like in  WoW's case, the world ends.

 

In reality the term "Power Creep" is much better suited for competitive gaming rather than cooperative gaming. There needs to be some sort of power progression from time to time. It would be nice if A.I. could gradually improve and as players we would have to evolve in skill instead of power to tackle better challenges...but...literally no game out there has figured out how to increase "challenge" through "better A.I." instead of "enemies do more damage". That's just the world we live in now.

 

Power Creep in a nut shell is Card A and Card B work together well. Time goes on and developer releases a new card D that does what Card A and Card B does and has an additional C effect. That card D would be power creeping. This isn't too much of a problem in a cooperative game because team mates need to get stronger. It becomes more of an issue in competitive gaming because in order to beat your opponent you are forced to use this strategy because it is the best and you will not win otherwise.

 

Progression and Power Creep are two sides of the same coin. 

 

Sure there are challenges along the way but they must start from somewhere right?

 

 

Yeah, I guess. If they could figure out how to make enemies "smarter" instead of just plain "stronger" than there would be no need for "stronger" weapons and gear, just "more skilled" players.

 

But.... Has any developer of a continually evolving MMO ever figured out how to make enemy A.I. infinity rise with level instead of enemy damage?

[AMDMAD]

 

Yeah, I guess. If they could figure out how to make enemies "smarter" instead of just plain "stronger" than there would be no need for "stronger" weapons and gear, just "more skilled" players.

 

But.... Has any developer of a continually evolving MMO ever figured out how to make enemy A.I. infinity rise with level instead of enemy damage?

Have u played all MMOs of excistence to known they have not?

[(PSN)DBR87]

Have u played all MMOs of excistence to known they have not?

 

No, I have not. Fair point. But I did do a little Google searching to find one that DOES and I have yet to come across it. 

 

If there is an MMO that posses enemies that get infinitely smarter as difficulty progresses, please share it with me.

[AMDMAD]

No, I have not. Fair point. But I did do a little Google searching to find one that DOES and I have yet to come across it. 

 

If there is an MMO that posses enemies that get infinitely smarter as difficulty progresses, please share it with me.

U did not get my point they wont get smarter as the game goes on but the Ai of raids will have better AI than everything

else in order to make it more challenging and beening more end game-ish

[(PSN)DBR87]

U did not get my point they wont get smarter as the game goes on but the Ai of raids will have better AI than everything

else in order to make it more challenging and beening more end game-ish

 

And my point is once players "skill" increases to the point they can auto pilot top level enemy "tactics" a new challenge will have to be created to test that rise in "skill".

 

I am not saying your idea is bad, just flawed. The general player population can over come enemy tactics a lot faster than enemy power because they have to grind for gear to beat stronger enemies. Especially with YouTube where you can view how other players beat enemy tactics/exploit A.I. and programming flaws. The "end game" could potentially become that much more stale if "intelligence" is the only barrier between low/mid level content and end game/high level content.

 

Not to say increasing enemy power isn't "flawed" either. I can't rightly say which solution is better. They could introduce new raids/trails that require different tactics then the last raid/trail did. It would essentially be the same as increase enemy power, but enemy power could be another hurdle on top of new tactics.

 

For Warframe specifically, how would endless T4 Survival scale? T4 Defense or Interception? Would enemies top out at lvl 150 and you just go on until bored?

[Heidrek]

yeah it's true, but then DE makes stronger weapons. Also the game is missing a great part any games need a story, a plot. call it whatever, a game always has something besides a beautiful battle system.

[AMDMAD]

For Warframe specifically, how would endless T4 Survival scale? T4 Defense or Interception? Would enemies top out at lvl 150 and you just go on until bored?

At some x amount of time enmies would surpass top level of 150 but weapons would remain balanced towards that level.

Or more mini-boses enemies flooding the tileset and maybe even have set ai for specific time periods . Like

at 15 min will have a simpler ai than when u reach 902 min . For example combining their powers creating traps / and

various tacticts to overpass u

[nobody1special]

DE should MUST implement this... kinda sick and tired of all these weapon nerfs/buffs, and I like the idea or level caps. That way, we can actually get a better sense of weapon op-ness

[Cosmedian]

I would look forward to it!

[Ashnal]

Wrong.  Balancing around level 80 when level 9999 enemies exist is a bad idea.  You need a level cap and then balance around making that cap tough but fair.

There's no reason why higher level enemies existing is a bad thing. It's perfectly possible to set a balance point while higher level enemies exist. This is to allow good players who like to puch the envelope and challange themselves a way to do so, a way to create their own challenge if you will. The devs could set a level and balance the challenge, BUT not everyone can handle the same level of challenge. The current scaling method allows players to choose how high they want to go and when they want to leave. By setting an explicit cap nothing is gained and that aspect is lost.

 

Perhaps you could try and explain what is gained by setting a cap? You can pick a level and balance around that without capping enemies and have the same practical effect.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Ashnal

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

There's no reason why higher level enemies existing is a bad thing. It's perfectly possible to set a balance point while higher level enemies exist. This is to allow good players who like to puch the envelope and challange themselves a way to do so, a way to create their own challenge if you will. The devs could set a level and balance the challenge, BUT not everyone can handle the same level of challenge. The current scaling method allows players to choose how high they want to go and when they want to leave. By setting an explicit cap nothing is gained and that aspect is lost.

 

Perhaps you could try and explain what is gained by setting a cap? You can pick a level and balance around that without capping enemies and have the same practical effect.

WHat's gain is a more polished and professional game.

 

There is nothing stopping them from making level 80 the cap in raids, making level 60 the cap outside of raids, and making level 40 the level cap on enemies before the 20 minute/wave mark.

 

i.e.

Level 40 = easy mode

Level 60 = hard mode

Level 80 = very hard (raid only) mode

 

That way they could balance for everything and they could make the max level enemies tough without being impossible.