Giving Enemy Max Levels Will Stop The Power Creep

[Ashnal]

WHat's gain is a more polished and professional game.

 

There is nothing stopping them from making level 80 the cap in raids, making level 60 the cap outside of raids, and making level 40 the level cap on enemies before the 20 minute/wave mark.

 

i.e.

Level 40 = easy mode

Level 60 = hard mode

Level 80 = very hard (raid only) mode

 

That way they could balance for everything and they could make the max level enemies tough without being impossible. 

But they can already balance for those levels. You don't need a cap to pick levels like that and balance around them. It's as simple as playtesting at that level and tweaking the numbers, capped or not. They already balance around the raid level which IS capped seeing as it isn't an endless mode. In fact all non-endless modes are already capped and balanced around. Even Endless modes are balanced around your average geared player being able to get at least two full rotations per mission. Endless modes beyond that are just there to see how far you can go as the odds stack against you, and many players find that fun. They aren't actually sitting down and trying to balance for an infinite level. There is nothing to gain by removing infinite scaling, it's a small part of the game that many players find enjoyment in..

 

"Polished and professional game" is incredibly vague. I'm looking for something more concrete here which you have thus far been unable to produce.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Ashnal

[Ashnal]

try reading my entire post, specifically that last line

I did read it. But okay I'll specifically address the last line:

"That way they could balance for everything and they could make the max level enemies tough without being impossible. "

 

There already is a balance point where enemies are supposed to be super tough but not impossible. It's around level 80 where the raid sits. They've already balanced weapons for that level.

 

I think what you're missing is that enemies past 80 aren't supposed to be balanced. Not at all. They're supposed to be a scaling challenge where players can test how strong enemies they can face before they fail. If you put a cap on it, then there is no challenge anymore. The idea is that there's a scale that you can measure yourself on, and it has to be continuous so players of all skill levels fit on it. If you just cut it off then the best players end up equal with no way (in PvE) to compare amongst themselves, or measure their own progress. People love measuring builds based on how high level enemies the build can handle before it breaks down.

 

The key line is that there's supposed to be a failure point. Many players find it fun to play until this failure point. You gain absolutely nothing by taking away this possibility. It does not have any effect on how weapons are balanced. Perhaps if you could actually walk through a process where infinite scaling is considered when designing a weapon you might have a point, but warframe doesn't have infinitely scaling weapons like you seem to think it has.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Ashnal

[Fifield]

I don't quite understand were you are going, could you repeat that politely and use some arguments to strenghten your thesis?

 

Ashnal's said it mostly: there's no logical need for an enemy cap.

 

Most of the game is designed so you can pick your own difficulty ie go to T1 vs T4, Mercury vs Sedna.  Raid is designed so you can pick your level of annoyance, which is another story...

 

But many players find no challenge in the game (unless you count grind).  And without challenge, it's a lot less fun.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/509573-where-is-the-difficulty-in-this-game/

 

So you either have to buff enemies *cough* one-shot bullet sponges...  or you need to add new strata of difficulty... or you need to nerf the OP stuff.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I think what you're missing is that enemies past 80 aren't supposed to be balanced.

I am not missing crap.  That is the whole problem.

 

I don't mind the area where you can test out your stuff on any level enemy.  But it should not be in the game as a whole, if they are not going to balance for it, or even worse, break what we already have that does work.

 

They are complaining about a bow doing a 100k damage, well in this content that we are talking about, you need that much damage. 

 

 

But many players find no challenge in the game (unless you count grind). 

That's why there is a logical need for a level cap.  You can not really balance for challenge when you don't have anything to balance around.  If you have level 60 as your cap (outside of raids) then you can start changing level 60 enemies to actually be tough with out being artificial-difficulty, one-hit-killer bullet-sponges. 

 

You can't do that in the current tier of the game because the only place you see that level is in endless missions and enemies have already blown past that level after 10 minutes of achieving it.

[DrBorris]

I would much rather quit because I am getting my @ss whooped than quit because I am getting bored of fighting enemies. I completly agree that enemy scaling needs a rework, but I do not think that a cap is a good solution.

Edited September 5, 2015 by DrBorris

[TheBrsrkr]

Yeah, no, a cap isn't going to solve anything. Infinite CC still exists, and if it's capped anywhere reasonable you could sit in an endless mission technically forever.

[Youre_Waifu]

I think in order to actually make this game's combat fun and balanced, the following things should happen:

 

-enemy level cap at ~30

-removal of all mods that increase DPS

-rebalance all weapons/remove some weapons that have very similar mechanics (primes, reskins, etc) until they all do similar damage while all working differently enough to not make them seem all the same

-balance enemy health/armor/damage scaling formulae so that they provide a reasonable challenge without being stupidly hard at level 30

-add a wide variety of utility mods for weapons (we already have a pretty good framework with concealed explosives/adhesive blast/etc., add some of the conclave mods and come up with a lot more that are interesting and aren't just "you get more damage")

-vastly increase enemy spawn rate

-rework bosses to be challenging instead of just bullet sponges/invincibility stages

 

Dynasty Warriors with guns and eldritch space magic.

[EinheriarJudith]

 

"add some of the conclave mods and come up with a lot more that are interesting and aren't just "you get more damage"

 

Mixing PVE and PVP? no.

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

You're calling most of the community babies for being better at the game than you LOL.

 

Also, original post makes no sense.  If the game is too easy, you make it harder.  Simples.

I was saying that it's a nuisance when when DE listens to a very small part of the community and allows it to dictate the rest of us. Perhaps you are more skilled than I am at the game but your bullets are not and that was what I was referring to, the split chamber nerf.

[Ashnal]

I am not missing crap.  That is the whole problem.

 

I don't mind the area where you can test out your stuff on any level enemy.  But it should not be in the game as a whole, if they are not going to balance for it, or even worse, break what we already have that does work.

 

They are complaining about a bow doing a 100k damage, well in this content that we are talking about, you need that much damage. 

 

 

That's why there is a logical need for a level cap.  You can not really balance for challenge when you don't have anything to balance around.  If you have level 60 as your cap (outside of raids) then you can start changing level 60 enemies to actually be tough with out being artificial-difficulty, one-hit-killer bullet-sponges. 

 

You can't do that in the current tier of the game because the only place you see that level is in endless missions and enemies have already blown past that level after 10 minutes of achieving it.

You're missing the part about WHY those enemies scale past our weapons, and how this is an enjoyable thing for many players. Also, it isn't in the game "as a whole." There are only four endless mission types out of a total of 17 different missions types. That's hardly "the game as a whole."

 

You STILL have not answered how removing an OPTIONAL part of the game would make it better. Keep in mind the game never actually forces you to fight enemies that are out of the balanced side of things. Raids are around level 80. Higher tier survivals/defenses end minute/wave 20 with an enemy level of 40 or so. You can even go to minute/wave 40 and still only fight level 80 or so enemies. Still within balanced parameters, but very tough for your average player. There's nothing that forces you to go beyond 20 minutes/waves or 4 rounds/extractors in endless mission types.

 

When you realize that those parts of the game are optional, what you call the need for crazy high damage weapons isn't really a need. At most you need a weapon that can deal with level 80 enemies when supported by warframe abilities. You don't actually need anything beyond that. There's no special content locked behind level 80 enemies. Anything and everything in the game can be obtained by fighting level 80 enemies and lower. Thus we don't actually need any weapons that kill above level 80 enemies. The fact that enemies above level 80 exist as optional content does not mean the game is balanced for them, nor does it mean it should be. All it is is an opportunity that many players enjoy to test their builds on a sliding scale and see where they end up. If you removed it the game would see no benefits, and only a lot of upset players.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Ashnal