These Devs Officially Don't Even Know Their Own Game Anymore.

[tocorro]

It's the vocal minority calling out the "mandatory" card.

No. It is not mandatory.

However, it is extremely appealing.

Why? Every enemy in the late game are bullet sponges.

 

So true.

I'll be up for changes if enemies will be more skill based to kill.

Now they are, as U said just bullet sponges - and no, no skill is required here, just dmg (that counts dmg buffs from skills).

So if we won't point out that changes to enemies are needed too, then it may take a long while for devs to do some proper balancing.

[AMDMAD]

I agree, but this is going to get a lock because of the tone.

We need more tones than jsut whinning / nerfing posts .

But i guess that is what mods allow

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

of course we will doctors said to say yes to you about everything

because you are a delicate person

 

If you would like to have an actual argument, let me know.

 

 By making enemies even more of bullet sponges instead of making them have actually tactics to take them down. It will still be a point, spray and move on game regardless.

 

How, exactly? I do raids a lot these days and *with weapons the way they are right now* my team sometimes has trouble with durable enemies. And that's with 4xCP. Cutting my ammo efficiency by ~90%-320(!)% isn't going to improve my endgame experience in any way I can think of.

 

Please, elucidate for me. Tell me how this will improve my experience, unless it's coupled directly with a complete rework of enemy armor, health, and damage scaling?

 

The point is that you won't have to slog through 2 hours of insultingly easy survival/defense before you can reach a real meaty challenge. The less damage you put out, the lower the enemy level you have to reach for a challenge. Game balance breaks down at high levels anyways, with CC spam and high survivability warframes becoming mandatory, so it will be good for endgame balance as well.

Edited September 4, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[AMDMAD]

If you would like to have an actual argument, let me know.

 

 

 

The point is that you won't have to slog through 2 hours of insultingly easy survival/defense before you can reach a real meaty challenge. Game balance breaks down at high levels anyways, with CC spam and high survivability warframes becoming mandatory, so it will be good for endgame balance as well.

So more spaming and cc is a balnaced end game?

Welp i cant even

Edited September 4, 2015 by AMDMAD

[Aktriaz]

I do feel as though there are a few conclusions being jumped too, but they are valid concerns as I don't see it as something DE couldn't do.

 

Saying that Multishot is currently "bugged" is probably the dumbest thing I've seen come out of DE, and the Vaykor Hek came out 2 days ago.

 

If they're going to change Raw damage mods as well, which would require a whole damage scaling rework entirely, I can safely say I can support this decision. Warframe's damage 2.0 and scaling since forever has been trash.

 

OP is right though.

The meta is DPS. If multishot increases overall DPS, even if it uses more ammo, people will still see it as required. DE has no idea what the players are actually doing, do they?

Edited September 4, 2015 by Actriaz

[AMDMAD]

Nope. And i honestly don't care to. None of my business. If you were more attentive however , Rebecca did say quite a few times during various devstreams that the stuff they say or throw around are purely ideas. This isn't set in stone as such. 

So i think this is really an over reaction.

 

A proper overeaction because it shakes the foundation of the entire game it was build in

[Regenerating_Degenerate]

How, exactly? I do raids a lot these days and *with weapons the way they are right now* my team sometimes has trouble with durable enemies. And that's with 4xCP. Cutting my ammo efficiency by ~90%-320(!)% isn't going to improve my endgame experience in any way I can think of.

 

Please, elucidate for me. Tell me how this will improve my experience, unless it's coupled directly with a complete rework of enemy armor, health, and damage scaling?

 

 

 the way they can fix multishot after they do this "nerf" is give more ammo (500%), maybe increase firerate (5.0%) and damage a little bit (50%), and if you want 2 or more bullets you can use a mod that decreases damage 25% and slows firerate by 2.5% and ammo by 250%... i dont Fing know

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

So i think this is really an over reaction.

 

This is the only kind of reaction that will get their attention.  Look at how terrible P2.slow was.  There was a huge backlash, similar to this one, then we got bullet jumping with save parkour 2.0.  Without that, we would still be left with that crap the show in DS55, I believe it was.

[R34LM]

The point is that you won't have to slog through 2 hours of insultingly easy survival/defense before you can reach a real meaty challenge. The less damage you put out, the lower the enemy level you have to reach for a challenge. Game balance breaks down at high levels anyways, with CC spam and high survivability warframes becoming mandatory, so it will be good for endgame balance as well.

 

I can say that I understand your reasoning. However, I'd focus more on making the endgame more fulfilling than making the current one appear faster.

 

The current system requires no skill. Just flat damage and a sense for headshots. No skill required, no challenge present. Since it only requires that damage, making ammo economy suffer to achieve that amount will, as you can see, meet resistance.

Edited September 4, 2015 by R34LM

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

So more spaming and cc is a balnaced end game?

Welp i cant even

 

You entirely missed the point. Endgame will be more balanced, because endgame will be at lower levels, so CC spam and high survivability won't be mandatory.

[Dexaldem]

What Valsako says is true. These two actions alone are VERY detrimental to Warframe's development. It FORCES people to use an item instead of ENCOURAGING them to use it. You see, this is why Warframe was so successful all this time. It ENCOURAGES you to get this frame, that gun, this sentinel and that Archwing weapon. Because you WANT them.

 

"I shoot two bullets! Oh, wait. *looks at two empty clips*"

 

But with the coming Overlords and their intention of nerfing a mod that is, in fact, REQUIRED FOR A RELIABLE BUILD for weapons ranging from "Okay" to "Is this a gun or poodle S#&$?", It now reduces the status of Multi-shot mods to the simple effect of a doubled, or even tripled firing rate. This isn't efficient. It is an exorbitant waste. This VASTLY displeases me and anyone trying to make weapons perform better.

 

This doesn't even FORCE you not to use the mod. it DISCOURAGES you from even DARING to use it. If the mod really needs this kind of nerf, it should be removed entirely and replaced with something else. There is no need for a ham-fisted handling of the mod like what has been discussed on the Devstream.

 

"YOU REQUIRE MORE PYLONS."

 

And making MR rankings more variable? I can vote for this, but as the game currently stands, F***. NO. It dramatically worsens an already unenjoyable grind. A grind which, frankly, I am quite tired of. I intermittently take long breaks from Warframe because of the grind. I'm an MR 13 as of recently and have over 1,600 hours of play time on it.

 

"Final thoughts"

 

This isn't one nail that seals Warframe's Sentient coffin, but TWO. You know what else that means? Two dead birds on your front lawn. Two dead birds you never wanted to see. Just watch. You're all disagreeing with this, but I PROMISE you. You'll regret siding with DE on it. I remember someone saying "How many hours does it take to get tired of Warframe? 1,400 hours and still counting."

 

I can answer it better myself. How many hours does it take? 1,612 and a power-hungry development team's bad "Adjustments".

Edited September 4, 2015 by Dexaldem

[Cpl_Facehugger]

If you would like to have an actual argument, let me know.

 

 

 

The point is that you won't have to slog through 2 hours of insultingly easy survival/defense before you can reach a real meaty challenge. The less damage you put out, the lower the enemy level you have to reach for a challenge. Game balance breaks down at high levels anyways, with CC spam and high survivability warframes becoming mandatory, so it will be good for endgame balance as well.

 

That's not a satisfactory answer.

 

I do raids. My clan's somehow turned from casuals into "do a raid every night" hardcores. My team has trouble killing highly durable enemies now at some points (just last night we lost a NM raid because a bombard knocked one of my teammates off a pad because he couldn't do enough DPS to kill him instantly and he didn't have the energy for CC.) Raids are endgame content, ergo I want you to explain to me how meganerfing all my guns except arguably Lex-style sniper pistols is going to improve my game experience.

 

If "having to go 2 hours for a challenge" is the problem, you know what the best solution is? T5 keys. Start at level 70, go to ~110 or so, just like raids. Bam. Done. No need to sodomize everyone else and render whole swaths of weapons (every automatic pistol in teh game) useless.

 

So, again, how's this going to benefit me as a player who consumes endgame content?

Edited September 4, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[tocorro]

The less damage you put out, the lower the enemy level you have to reach for a challenge. Game balance breaks down at high levels anyways, with CC spam and high survivability warframes becoming mandatory, so it will be good for endgame balance as well.

 

We will have to see what starchart 3.0 will bring us in terms of void rewards. 

BUT if endless mission types will stay as they are (time and rotation based rewards), then it'll just mean less chance to get reward per key, and more key farming.

And reducing our dmg or increasing enemy armor/health/shields is by no means a challenge ...

Making enemy kills more tactical and skill based is a challenge. 

[AMDMAD]

You entirely missed the point. Endgame will be more balanced, because endgame will be at lower levels, so CC spam and high survivability won't be mandatory.

Suuuuure u know this is DE we are talking about right?

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

You entirely missed the point. Endgame will be more balanced, because endgame will be at lower levels, so CC spam and high survivability won't be mandatory.

HAHAHAHA . . . no.  Unless enemies get a hard level cap, end game will be the exact same place it is now. Endlessly scaling and CC Abilities will be spammed more than ever before.

[Egg_Chen]

While I will wait and see what actually happens with the change, I am so sick and tired of these Devs treating their players like they are dumb.

 

It was a bug, really, oh Ok then.

Sigh...

[Inertzia]

My reaction to the Multishot nerf:

 

And the weapons with long reload died

And the Age of Ammo Pads began

[AMDMAD]

While I will wait and see what actually happens with the change, I am so sick and tired of these Devs treating their players like they are dumb.

 

It was a bug, really, oh Ok then.

Sigh...

Update 18 :Removed a bug from multishot not consuming additional ammo

since update 7 sorry it took us so long to find it out

Edited September 4, 2015 by AMDMAD

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

ALSO, this is not how you promote MR.

 

My thread here is how you do it properly: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/482694-the-master-forma-solution/

 

You don't feel forced to achieve once certain MR, only to have it become instantly useless again.  Instead you feel rewarded for being whatever MR you currently are and also feel encouraged and rewarded each time you level it up further as well.

 

I am giving you gold for free here DE!

[AMDMAD]

ALSO, this is not how you promote MR.

 

My thread here is how you do it properly: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/482694-the-master-forma-solution/

 

You don't feel forced to achieve once certain MR, only to have it become instantly useless again.  Instead you feel rewarded for being whatever MR you currently are and also feel encouraged and rewarded each time you level it up further as well.

 

I am giving you gold for free here DE!

They laugh at your proper ideas u know nad they will aply their awesome logic

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

That's not a satisfactory answer.

 

I do raids. My clan's somehow turned from casuals into "do a raid every night" hardcores. My team has trouble killing highly durable enemies now at some points (just last night we lost a NM raid because a bombard knocked one of my teammates off a pad because he couldn't do enough DPS to kill him instantly and he didn't have the energy for CC.) Raids are endgame content, ergo I want you to explain to me how meganerfing all my guns except arguably Lex-style sniper pistols is going to improve my game experience.

 

If "having to go 2 hours for a challenge" is the problem, you know what the best solution is? T5 keys. Start at level 70, go to ~110 or so, just like raids. Bam. Done. No need to sodomize everyone else and render whole swaths of weapons (every automatic pistol in teh game) useless.

 

So, again, how's this going to benefit me as a player who consumes endgame content?

 

We will have to see what starchart 3.0 will bring us in terms of void rewards. 

BUT if endless mission types will stay as they are (time and rotation based rewards), then it'll just mean less chance to get reward per key, and more key farming.

And reducing our dmg or increasing enemy armor/health/shields is by no means a challenge ...

Making enemy kills more tactical and skill based is a challenge. 

 

The only alternative to fixing endgame other than an across the board nerf to all weaponry is a complete rework of enemy scaling. My thoughts on the matter can be found here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/471601-endgame-20-analyzing-the-causes-of-warframes-lack-of-endgame-and-solving-the-problems-one-by-one/

 

 

To me at least, whether Warframe lives or dies will depend on its ability to find decent endgame. It's endgame content that will keep players involved in the game, and give them a reason to keep playing after they've progressed to their most powerful point. Without endgame content, Warframe slowly becomes duller and duller as players progress, until there's literally no reason to keep playing.

 

To diagnose this problem, we must first find out what causes it. The way I see it, there are many reasons why Warframe can't find good endgame content:

 

1. Enemy scaling increases the health and damage of enemies exponentially as levels climb

2. Enemy armor is insanely strong, far more so than enemy shields

3. High level enemies one-shot kill you regardless of how much health and shields you have

4. Our weapons are so ridiculously powerful that enemies need to reach incredibly high levels to provide any sort of challenge

 

I will be providing a solution to every single one of these problems. If all of these issues are solved, than Warframe veterans will be able to thrive on fun endgame content that raids and endless missions are not necessary to access.

 

1. Enemy scaling is completely borked

Note: I've already created a topic on this subject. Most of this is taken from that thread.

 

These are the issues I will be addressing here:

 

1. High level enemies can instantaneously melt away thousands of health and shields

 

2. High level enemies become absolute bullet sponges

 

3. Low/mid level enemies have difficulty taking down the weakest frames

 

4. Low/mid level enemies instantly die under less than a second of direct fire

 

What are the adverse effects of these problems?

 

1. Warframes with some kind of survivability skill are pretty much mandated for late/endgame content

 

2. The real challenge of the game comes not from taking down tougher and tougher enemies, but from dealing with the massive hordes needed to make up for the ridiculous killing power of our weaponry

 

3. The difficulty curve isn't so much a curve as it is a vertical wall; the game is incredibly easy through the mid level, but becomes insanely difficult in endgame

 

Any late game warframe player should be able to confirm these as being true. Warfame has become known as the game where either you kill enemies in one hit, or they kill you in one hit.

 

DISCLAIMER: Obviously everybody's experience with the game's difficulty and enemy scaling is different. These are just the general trends I've noticed in both my own experience and the experiences of other forum posters.

 

It seems the primary problem is that there's a ridiculously massive difference between low and high level enemies in terms of both damage output and survivability. Let's look at the enemy damage scaling chart on the Warframe wiki to find out why.

 

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Dk8CAKovxi3Yn6V9vX5c49r8Sf_3PvFtHwTEjsAgjO_ASsctn904YepfDI1_saZyfmLkNbWEfeg3fGe7--3q4FfU9335cSx3PzSw-jUpfoh6aP7dfgv6k0D_YVCK6TT5-oplOa4

 

Well there's your problem! The damage output is actually increasing exponentially as enemy levels climb. However, I have a solution:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mgbk_x80I5_7eOjC2Ey68gzgKzOxCSmh5G32MBRzYXfu1IXhvHNt4fRYJzq_PzHGlDiCbDb-1oCDgdq7OW8xcgWco-_1uDDb0SmNl2InmH21GyJb3_iIg-HN28L_zMc6ZA9b1LQ

 

Simply make the damage increase decline in higher levels as opposed to grow. Instead of having the increase in enemy damage output climb exponentially, it now has what DE would refer to as a "diminishing return." As enemy level increases, the damage increase gets smaller and smaller. This would make low level enemies deal significant enough damage to add challenge to low/mid level missions, while reigning in the absolutely ludicrous damage output of high level enemies.

 

Note: Simply reversing the current damage scaling chart would actually make the problem worse, but the flipped chart I'm presenting is just a demonstration of the general idea of what I want to do. Actually reworking the enemy scaling formula completely so that enemy health and damage got a diminishing return without the new formula having any relation to the old one would help the problem.

 

Problems #2 and 4 can be solved in much the same way as 1 and 3. The health, shields, and armor of enemies scale up exponentially in much the same way damage output does, and can be fixed in exactly the same way.

 

Health, shield, and armor scaling charts:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/Axd8rvaiQ3OQ2BHfp7-8eXl0LoN47DkTsBeieok-PgLZJvGT8Q_u35SMDHe5h5BDHZVUnlxpmwjhuxZjYImAZmSkqBvUTqppqXQXuBMorE7DzyNVzyKAEdmQuRZmwU6pkEctsvQ

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/5tn88YTvh2RZ2QqLLpnl-smaFAurLJfza9-ba9HZFSFuzfgvpcfbNNKEYDQjBpf18hzpRl_GOBZWq7Zkkn8R5tNmnrkO2ls3zzf3z4kxVccle98dOR9S7_IiootpEE_PsxEzA1s

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/Q-xXY2dAxyUvWZ0yijZ4tFw_W5BJrqF7MVPn9LVaqdIS81s1ZQq650ynVz7yffNTxfdbcfWWV1k_0AQSTXlMuwTa4Kr8OxoqHQCAHwtLxEx2NC6B0pHiWsDmITjKRCe0EkvfIfg

 

There is one more point I would like to bring up. It doesn't really have anything to do with TTK, but it's certainly a problem with enemy scaling. Here's a chart showing how enemy level affects affinity gain:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_BSbw291ImM9tdZF-RqNFZy1_oNlia_AcyzLsiLAu7zEjpOft-EiAu7VdH1Lv2QOyZD_1cZUhD05VKoRZjqCeoXH0O4Cu_qd6o8q8mvAa3vtKvmCVrPBFGVrS3IY--yYY-YphiA

 

Why does affinity from killing enemies exponentially decrease with enemy level? It's actually more efficient to grind for hours in low level missions than it is to take your gear into high level content for a real challenge. This actively incentivizes farming and press-4-to-win play.

 

2. Enemy armor is completely borked

Any Warframe veteran can tell you the importance of armor removal. Enemy armor provides far, far more protection than enemy shields. Enemy armor is the reason 4 corrosive projections are basically mandatory for high level content. Enemy armor is the reason Grineer and Corrupted are so much more prevalent than Corpus in Warframe's current endgame content.

 

Let's see what the issue here is. Let's compare an armored enemy to a shielded enemy. If an armored enemy has 500 health and a 50% damage reduction from armor, and a shielded enemy has 500 health and 500 shields, then both enemies take 1000 damage to kill. However, let's see what happens if we increase their stats by 50%. If an armored enemy has 750 health and a 75% damage reduction from armor, and a shielded enemy has 750 health and 750 shields, the shielded enemy takes 1500 damage to kill, but the armored enemy takes 3000 damage to kill. This is why armor is so superior to shields.

 

How can this problem be fixed? Enemy armor scaling needs to be changed so that an armored enemy and a shielded enemy of the same level have the same effective health. In the previous example, the armored enemy with 750 health would also have a 50% armor reduction, resulting in an effective health of 1500, just like the shielded enemy.

 

Obviously, this change should be paired with a nerf to the Corrosive Projection aura. Credit to S7ORM for the idea:

 

how about we decrease the effectiveness of them, then use multiplacative effectiveness instead of additive? Say, now CP does 25% armor reduction, but with 2 CP's you get (100*.25)+((100-100*.25)*.25) = 43.8% armor reduction. That way, with 4 CP you get 68.4% armor reduction -- so yes, you COULD use 4 CP to get more of a decrease in armor than using less versions, but each version that you use has a decreased effectiveness, so it encourages you to use other auras without completely restricting them.

 

 

3 and 4. The Meat Of The Issue

I touched on this briefly in section 1, but it needs to be discussed more in-depth.

 

How fast can this game's top tier weapons kill a level 30 enemy? Instantaneously. Without corrosive Projection, what level do enemies need to reach before they don't die instantaneously? When enemies are at that level, can they kill you instantaneously?

 

Getting one-shot isn't fun. I don't think it's possible to make it fun, at least not in Warframe. The challenge in endgame should come from taking down tougher and tougher enemies, not from getting one-shot by everything. If you take down a super tough enemy, that feels rewarding, like you accomplished something. If you get one-shot, it feels like you're being punished.

 

I do realize fun is a purely subjective thing, however, one-shots have objective problems as well.

Probably the biggest problem with one-shots is that they mandate the usage of survivability skills, and CC to a somewhat lesser extent. This reduces the number of endgame viable warframes to a fraction of the total number of warframes in the game, unbalancing the game and horrendously limiting player choice.

 

Warframe has become known as the game where you one-shot kill everything, or everything one-shot kills you. Killing everything in one shot isn't fun, because there's no challenge. Getting one-shot killed is no fun, because it feels BS and unforgiving, and mandates survivability skills. FOR ENDGAME CONTENT TO TRULY SUCCEED, IT MUST INCLUDE NO INSTA-DEATHS WHATSOEVER, FOR BOTH YOU AND THE ENEMIES. I cannot stress enough how important that is. It does not matter how we go about doing this; if insta-deaths are eliminated, Warframe will have at least passable endgame content.

 

How do we eliminate one-shot kills? We need to completely change the level we view as endgame content.

 

In my eyes, level 30-40 should be endgame content. This makes more sense than any other enemy level. Ceres, the toughest planet on the star chart, is level 30-40. Non-endless T4 missions are level 30-40, despite the level listed on the key. Our weapons and warframes max out at level 30. At level 30, enemy damage is high enough to be a challenge, but not quite in the BS one-shot kill range yet. This would make endgame content accessible from the star chart without the use of endless missions.

 

But at level 30, our weapons one-shot kill everything! How do we solve that problem? For this, more extreme action is required. Every single weapon in the game needs to be re-balanced for usage at level 30-40.

 

For me, the simplest way to do this would be to simply remove must-have mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, Split Chamber, etc. I did some preliminary DPS calculations with a Boltor Prime before and after the change, and while the maximum DPS achievable without must-have mods was less than half of the DPS achievable with them, the DPS was still respectable, and higher than some mid-tier weapons currently. This change would also have all the advantages that removing must-have mods would bring. Obviously, everyone would be refunded in full.

 

However, it does not really matter how weapons are balanced if they are balanced for level 30-40. I would just like to make that point before you all scream at me for saying must-have mods should be removed. Using a maxed out high tier weapon at level 30-40 should be akin to using an unmodded low-tier weapon at level 1, at least to some degree.

 

Unfortunately, this change would also mean that survivability skills like shatter Shield, Turbulence, blessing, etc. would also have to be balanced for level 30-40. If level 30-40 became endgame content without any changes to survivability skills, high survivability frames would absolutely trivialize any challenge that level 30-40 might offer.

 

Sorry for the messed up text sizes, copying & pasting on the forums tends to break a number of things.

Edited September 4, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[R34LM]

The only alternative to fixing endgame other than an across the board nerf to all weaponry is a complete rework of enemy scaling. My thoughts on the matter can be found here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/471601-endgame-20-analyzing-the-causes-of-warframes-lack-of-endgame-and-solving-the-problems-one-by-one/

 

 Now this I fully endorse. Instead of the lazy and simple nerf to multishot the enemy scaling should be fixed.

Edited September 4, 2015 by R34LM

[Cpl_Facehugger]

The only alternative to fixing endgame other than an across the board nerf to all weaponry is a complete rework of enemy scaling. My thoughts on the matter can be found here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/471601-endgame-20-analyzing-the-causes-of-warframes-lack-of-endgame-and-solving-the-problems-one-by-one/

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the messed up text sizes, copying & pasting on the forums tends to break a number of things.

 

Yes, we need to completely rework enemy scaling to make any sort of major player DPS output nerf work. By all means, DE should do this.

 

But so far we have no reason to believe they are. Which means that until they say they are, you need to stop defending nerfs like this with the patina of "they'll be good for us, really."

 

Edited September 4, 2015 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Dexaldem]

Precisely. This is not a "Good nerf" Normmally, nerfs on Warframe aren't good. And this one in addition to upping MR for weapons are both very, VERY bad.

[(PSN)aiptekfanboy]

weaker weapon DPS via ammo nerf?

hayll no!!

 

but my opinion in of itself matters not but heres what matters and what DE listens too

 

 

if the upcomeing change angers many to the point where many drop Warframe for another game then DE will backtrack on these changes.