Sancti Tigris/tigris Needs To Be Scaled Down.

[VoidNomade]

1) OP fells touchy because someone said he´s a tigris noob

"But all im seeing now are the same emotions that a large amount of our community have given towards Rhipri and Boltor users. Its not fully envy but not fully disgust."

 

2) Thinks that tigris is "better" than a boltor prime

"its a very powerful weapon, putting the Boltor prime to utter shame"

 

3) Thinks it´s so good there are like no choices left

"in De's quest to force us to not rely on one weapon entirely, this is completely going against that mindset"

 

4) Uses a streamer opinion as his own

"Rob from AGGP states this..."

 

5) Thinks that there´s skill in wf

"amount of damage vs the actual skill required..."

 

 

The basis of this thread is just bad and why the tigris is fine is already mentioned.

[(PSN)BorockObama]

The Tigris is in a great spot right now even vs its counterpart. 2 Shots in the chamber with a forced hold on the 2nd shot if you want to save it.

Vs a crowd, you'll have a problem. Vs A big enemy or two, you have the tool you need to handle it. Besides, Double barrel shotguns are known for that kind of stopping power, small changes like the one you listed seem too small to make a significant difference to their use, and to make them any lower would kind of deter the point of the weapon.

That same stopping power carries over for half a tile. a shotgun shoukd gain more dmg the closer you are and less the further you are, betwwen viscious spread and seeking fury youre not having to worry about reload or a room.

[Caernarvon]

That same stopping power carries over for half a tile. a shotgun shoukd gain more dmg the closer you are and less the further you are,

 

My 20th century hunting shotgun has more range than the shotguns in Warframe.

 

As stated no namecalling, stay on topic.

 

I'm not the one that claims that the game should work one way and not the other for no reason other than "I said so".

Edited September 6, 2015 by Caernarvon

[(PSN)BorockObama]

1) OP fells touchy because someone said he´s a tigris noob

"But all im seeing now are the same emotions that a large amount of our community have given towards Rhipri and Boltor users. Its not fully envy but not fully disgust."

 

2) Thinks that tigris is "better" than a boltor prime

"its a very powerful weapon, putting the Boltor prime to utter shame"

 

3) Thinks it´s so good there are like no choices left

"in De's quest to force us to not rely on one weapon entirely, this is completely going against that mindset"

 

4) Uses a streamer opinion as his own

"Rob from AGGP states this..."

 

5) Thinks that there´s skill in wf

"amount of damage vs the actual skill required..."

 

 

The basis of this thread is just bad and why the tigris is fine is already mentioned.

 Actually none of that applies to me, but i welcome your effort

I'm not the one that claims that the game should work one way and not the other for no reason other than "I said so".

Never implied or stated that, you did.

No need for calling names lol.

 

Generally that's just how it is. No matter how you look at it, as enemy levels go up, our weapons and frames do have a cap and it can only take you so far. It's not a matter of what it should or should not be with what Borock was saying, but for how this game functions and scaling, CC will always be more demandable over a pure damaging frame for example such as some of skills on Ember, Ash, Volt, Sayrn, etc.

This is why frames like Vauban, Zephyr, Nova, Nyx, etc, and their CC skill(s) are typically going to be more efficient over the former. (This is assuming within Raid/Endless gamemode scenarios of course).

 

For how this game is with enemy scaling, CC will generally scale significantly better over DPS. Once DPS drops, you want to have as much control of the battlefield as possible, so you can deal the damage accordingly to each enemy, as their Health, Damage, Armor rating, and etc continue the rise in those scenarios.

It's just how many games are. No matter how you look at it.

 

Hope that clears it up a bit!~

i completely missed this, i guess my phrasing is off but you seem to be getting where im coming from here.

[HalfDarkShadow]

Thank you for sharing your opinion respectively, +1

Of course! (:

I always enjoy reading different peoples perspectives on different topics on this game, and since you were asking what were our thoughts, I never mind sharing my thoughts on it, even if it's a bit different or the same as others~

 

 

Why should CC outweigh DPS in any endgame scenario? Why can't it be DPS too?

Oh it absolutely can. DPS is still a huge component and very important to a game like this. They both, in a way, go hand-in-hand. I mean, there's no point in Nova's 4th ability, if you don't have the tools to kill them, if you want to think very basically about it haha (:

 

It's just for how many games out there do with scaling and general AI, as further and further enemy levels go up while we're stuck at level 30 for all our weapons and frames, there's only so much damage you can do before it becomes overwhelming. Hence where important CC frames come in to help give general DPS that edge it needs to keep up with leveling. There's nothing wrong with capping at level 30 either, we don't want to get too overpowered (I think that's what power creep means? Someone can correct me on it lol) xD

 

But I believe they did mention from time to time they'll need to look into how enemies scale down the road for where the game is now. Which they're definitely going into the right direction with the recent (and still ongoing) changes with how enemies spawn in different games-modes like Defense, Survival, Excavation, and so on.

There's really no quick-fix-perfect-solution way to help remedy enemy scaling (generally speaking), but as long they continue to tweak, update, and make the necessary changes to help continue with difficultly and general AI functionality as the game continues to evolve, then I'm more then sure everything will fit into place just fine (:

[007-Creed]

We just explaind CC has a higher call point over dps, also again never said nerf, yiu all did.

 

"scaled down" (thread title) and toned down means nerf

Edited September 6, 2015 by N7-Creed

[SoulKing009]

Yea? At what 60 minutes in a T4s right. Why are you even spending an hour in an area like that, besides forma you should have everything you want or need, DE clearly stated the game hasnt been scaled properly for those engagements, purposely putting yourself in a broken enviornment doesnt validate that opinion at all, im sorry.

The reason why people do 60 mins survival is for the challenge, the game by itself is really easy with any weapon you have you just need enough forma, so playing 60 mins survival 120 waves on defense is the only way to face a real challenge in this game and to be able to do that you need end game gear like tonkor, kulstar, dread, scindo prime and stuff.

 

Having weapons like Sancti tigris and tigris is just for that purpose and if you dont find a reason to play that then is ok, but asking for a nerf to a good weapon just because you think is too much is straight up silly, of course it will too much since is an endgame weapon and not a low tier one.

[(PSN)BorockObama]

"scaled down" (thread title) and toned down means nerf

Again we explained theres a difference

The reason why people do 60 mins survival is for the challenge, the game by itself is really easy with any weapon you have you just need enough forma, so playing 60 mins survival 120 waves on defense is the only way to face a real challenge in this game and to be able to do that you need end game gear like tonkor, kulstar, dread, scindo prime and stuff.

 

Having weapons like Sancti tigris and tigris is just for that purpose and if you dont find a reason to play that then is ok, but asking for a nerf to a good weapon just because you think is too much is straight up silly, of course it will too much since is an endgame weapon and not a low tier one.

my edit explains my opinion on that.

[Bipp]

To be honest, the damage boost to the Sancti Tigris isn't that big of a deal since the normal Tigris already does boatloads of damage as it stands. It's Overkill or more overkill. That's not to say the Sancti isn't a direct upgrade to the normal Tigris. The reload is the only thing holding the Tigris back and since the Sancti has an improved reload (along with increased crit chance and pellet count) it's pretty clear that it is an upgrade.

 

The Vaykor Hek seems to be a good sidegrade done right; pros and cons (except for that damn augment. Curse it).

 

Sancti Tigris shouldn't have happened.

[VoidNomade]

Can you again, please, explain in layman words why the tigris should be scaled down?

[(PSN)BorockObama]

Of course! (:

I always enjoy reading different peoples perspectives on different topics on this game, and since you were asking what were our thoughts, I never mind sharing my thoughts on it, even if it's a bit different or the same as others~

 

 

Oh it absolutely can. DPS is still a huge component and very important to a game like this. They both, in a way, go hand-in-hand. I mean, there's no point in Nova's 4th ability, if you don't have the tools to kill them, if you want to think very basically about it haha (:

 

It's just for how many games out there do with scaling and general AI, as further and further enemy levels go up while we're stuck at level 30 for all our weapons and frames, there's only so much damage you can do before it becomes overwhelming. Hence where important CC frames come in to help give general DPS that edge it needs to keep up with leveling. There's nothing wrong with capping at level 30 either, we don't want to get too overpowered (I think that's what power creep means? Someone can correct me on it lol) xD

 

But I believe they did mention from time to time they'll need to look into how enemies scale down the road for where the game is now. Which they're definitely going into the right direction with the recent (and still ongoing) changes with how enemies spawn in different games-modes like Defense, Survival, Excavation, and so on.

There's really no quick-fix-perfect-solution way to help remedy enemy scaling (generally speaking), but as long they continue to tweak, update, and make the necessary changes to help continue with difficultly and general AI functionality as the game continues to evolve, then I'm more then sure everything will fit into place just fine (:

Im noticing a recurring trend, we all here seem to turn back our discussions from the tigris towards enemy scaling, which is making me change my view as the weapon, is it dishing out alot? yea at face value too much even, buuuut a large amount of counter reasoning im seeing is due to the ai scaling and NOT the weapon itself, which means that the weapon isnt the issue here, but the overall balancing of AI as a whole.

Can you again, please, explain in layman words why the tigris should be scaled down?

Too much overall dmg per target.

To be honest, the damage boost to the Sancti Tigris isn't that big of a deal since the normal Tigris already does boatloads of damage as it stands. It's Overkill or more overkill. That's not to say the Sancti isn't a direct upgrade to the normal Tigris. The reload is the only thing holding the Tigris back and since the Sancti has an improved reload (along with increased crit chance and pellet count) it's pretty clear that it is an upgrade.

 

The Vaykor Hek seems to be a good sidegrade done right; pros and cons (except for that damn augment. Curse it).

 

Sancti Tigris shouldn't have happened.

Thank you for sharing your opinion +1

[VoidNomade]

Too much overall dmg per target.

 

Why is that a problem?

[Caernarvon]

Never implied or stated that, you did.

And CC should outweigh Dps in any endgame scenario

[(PSN)BorockObama]

Why is that a problem?

Nothing within reason has that much health in game, its overkill and uneeded

 

Never implied or stated that, you did.

And CC should outweigh Dps in any endgame scenario

That never implied was towards you once again namecalling and making baseless accusations, please read your own posts

[VoidNomade]

Nothing within reason has that much health in game, its overkill and uneeded

 

Than toning it down to a value where it would still overkill is evenly unneeded.

[Bipp]

Nothing within reason has that much health in game, its overkill and uneeded

Exactly. So ignore the damage as it isn't the main issue; it's the weapon itself. There's nothing much you can actually change on that weapon to make a good sidegrade like they did with the Vaykor Hek.

[Zereleth]

Nothing within reason has that much health in game, its overkill and uneeded

But by that logic Tonkor should be nerfed then shouldn't it? It one shots pretty much every enemy and it's AoE.

[Snowmotion]

This is all addressing symptoms, not the underlying problem.

 

If the multishot nerf coming is a straight up 1:1 ratio for ammo consumption, then without multishot the damage of the Tigris'll with the expected damage mods, both reload mods (woo, one second reload time, it's an awkward bronco now!) and elemental mods will deal about as much damage as a syndicate modded Hek.

 

What does that mean though?

 

Nothing, without a good point of reference.

 

If you want to change / nerf / buff / whatever any of the weapons, you need to fix the games scaling, then pick out a point and say "This is the point players should consider to be the optimal peak, and a properly modded gun should be able to kill X enemy in Y shots at this point."

 

Without that, we'll lack any sensible ground to stand on with any of these things.

[007-Creed]

Nothing within reason has that much health in game, its overkill and uneeded

I will be honest and i think many of us already said it. Your problem is that you only see damage stat and you dont play end game, idk why you keep insisting.

[(PSN)BorockObama]

This is all addressing symptoms, not the underlying problem.

 

If the multishot nerf coming is a straight up 1:1 ratio for ammo consumption, then without multishot the damage of the Tigris'll with the expected damage mods, both reload mods (woo, one second reload time, it's an awkward bronco now!) and elemental mods will deal about as much damage as a syndicate modded Hek.

 

What does that mean though?

 

Nothing, without a good point of reference.

 

If you want to change / nerf / buff / whatever any of the weapons, you need to fix the games scaling, then pick out a point and say "This is the point players should consider to be the optimal peak, and a properly modded gun should be able to kill X enemy in Y shots at this point."

 

Without that, we'll lack any sensible ground to stand on with any of these things.

+1 i made a response to a previous poster about this, it seems to be more of scaling than the weapon, about half of the posters here revert to that, which means i may be addressing the wrong issue.

[Thelonious]

Would gladly trade half of its damage for 0.5 sec less reload.

 

I don't think it's a good weapon as it is: this game is about dealing with crowds fast, and the tigris fails hard in that matter, even with vicious spread, punch-through and minimum reload speed.

As to the 4-shot build, I think it's a mod slot-wasting atrocity that shouldn't even be possible. And even then, the recent changes to the alt-fire of the weapon make the build much less enjoyable to use.

 

The only way I can bear playing with this gun is with a green colored Chroma with a lot of Power Strength. It actually becomes very confortable to use (if you can tolerate pressing the reload key just as much as the firing key).

 

A gazillion damage per shot, but poor sustained dps, and atrocious fire/reload time ratio is the reason why weapons like snipers are in such a bad spot atm.

 

But some ppl just enjoy seeing big numbers on their screens, so whatever, to each his own.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Thelonious

[(PSN)BorockObama]

I will be honest and i think many of us already said it. Your problem is that you only see damage stat and you dont play end game, idk why you keep insisting.

Except I have? And im making my observations personally on that regard

[007-Creed]

Except I have? And im making my observations personally on that regard

We understood your point and explained why it needs massive damage. You dont want to understand ours

 

Edit: You are right, has a lot of damage per bullet. Question is, does it needs? Yes, for all the reasons explained

Edited September 6, 2015 by N7-Creed

[izzatuw]

I think the rest of the synd weapons need to get on its level.

[Acaelus]

Seeing as "end-game" (60 minute T4S and such) isn't being considered by this argument as it's a broken environment, then looking at enemies in the star chart, there are easily over 40 guns (in my opinion at least) in the game capable of killing any star chart based enemy in under 2 seconds flat.

If we're not taking the tigris into broken enemy territory, there's so many other guns that can match its short term burst and tonnes of weapons capable of destroying the tigris in terms of kills per second over time, not just the famous few that people love to compare "OP" weapons to.

In this kind of reality, where there's not just 2-3 weapons, several dozen weapons capable of insta-killing or close to insta-killing any enemy, singling out one weapon in particular to be toned down is pretty pointless, especially something as niche as the tigris.

 

Whether it's dealing 10,000 damage or 1,000,000 damage if your pool of targets only has 10,000 HP at max anyway, then the extra damage the weapon is dealing is having no effect on gameplay whatsoever. At that point it becomes an argument of whether or not it's capable of matching up to the kills per second that other weapons are able to do, and with the tigris' dual shot mechanic as well as a 2 shot magazine, with a sizeable reload time, the tigris is easily out performed by so many other weapons.

 

So in short, the tigris is way too niche to be considered requiring adjustment, when there are easily over 40 guns that are capable of doing the same thing as the tigris within the bounds of the star chart.

 

Also, just as a side note, the term nerf means to weaken or make less powerful, when something is nerfed it means it was made less powerful in the hopes of making it more balanced. Whether it's lowering a weapons stats by 90% or 0.01% it still falls under the definition of nerf. Similarly the terms counterpart, buff, would also apply whether a weapons stats were increased by 90% or 0.01%, either way it would be considered a buff. While people love screaming and shouting the word nerf from the rooftops, it's the gamer term used to describe an action taken to lower the overall strength of something, and people in general tend to focus on negatives rather than positives since they leave the more lasting effect.

Ignoring the definition and using fancy terms that amount to the same definition doesn't change anything.