What I Had To Say To My Clan That I'm Not Happy About At All

[Blatantfool]

This is exactly what they should be doing, and that why they are doing it.  

 

 I happen to agree. They should be picking a number and working with it. I'm glad they have.

[ValiantCorvus]

As I've said before, players are a form of resource and gathering players takes time. After we finish researching, the individuals who wishes to own these weapons would still have to purchase the blueprint and spent resources to build it in the foundry. If all 1000+ member wants it, it would be built 1000+ times which is a significantly larger amount of resource than having the weapon for every member of a 10 member clan. It is not like by finishing the dojo, each member were given free weapons.

................ Assuming the lab is even finished.

 

What relevance does that have to the topic?  None.

[Derpius]

................ Assuming the lab is even finished.

 

What relevance does that have to the topic?  None.

 

You are a bit dense aren't you? The system is set up as a compromise for the large and the medium sized clan. Instead of a large flat fee to get a weapon accessible to a clan, it is split into two part. The upfront building research cost and than the cost of the weapon itself. The first part is a flat cost while the latter changes depending on how many member there are in the clan. If a thousand member clan wants to have a researched weapon in the hand of every member, the clan will have to pay 1000(x), x being the cost of the resource itself.

 

This is a much better method than a fixed percentage scaling, as it takes inactive members in a clan into account, those who would drag the price up for everyone else under the fixed system. Which leads to horrible consequences. So only those who wish to own the weapon will end up paying the cost.

[ArsVampyre]

For my clan the problem is the forma gate. We can, and will, farm the other materials, despite it being annoying. We'll farm the ridiculous amount of materials needed to do the research, because that's part of the game.

The forma requirement, and it's extreme rarity without purchasing it, makes it a de facto for-pay-only feature. It's been suggested that 1 forma per hallway/room would be ok, because forma isn't 100% purchase only, but the reality is that the intention of Forma on the rooms is to make people give DE money for the dojo, which is why the research for certain weapons is inside the dojo and not somewhere that doesn't de facto require money to access.

It's turning Free to play into Pay to play, but hiding that fact behind a random number generator. And if your clan is big enough, it's no big deal, because spread out over several hundred members, a few token people spending 20 plat on one forma each is easy to do. Spread out over 10 people, it's not.

This is how I envision this being fixed. Dump the forma gate all together, or lower it to 1 per room to keep people from going nuts with the hallways. Reduce the cost of materials in total, especially for hallways and elevators, but leave their cost in capacity and energy so people don't go nuts with them. Big clans lose NOTHING. Medium clans lose NOTHING. Small clans can suddenly see a light at the end of the tunnel.

To be honest, my clan can deal with everything but the forma gate, but right now what they're talking about doing is leaving the clan, one at a time, joining something like Warbros, leeching BP from them, and then quitting and coming back. I can't say I blame them; this is the result of the system DE made so they can make people give them money to access content in a free to play game. Forma prices are perfectly fine for the utility of polarizing a slot; you'll get no issue from me about that. And it'll be purchased for that purpose regularly. But the forma gate on dojo's is ridiculous for anyone who doesn't want to shell out lots of cash, because void keys are rare and Forma from them is even more rare, making the chances of collecting it pretty small, making the resulting chances of even medium or large clans actually farming the forma instead of buying it 0%.

I don't think this is the way DE intends the game to be played, with everyone joining large clans to avoid paying the forma costs, then bailing on them as soon as they have all the research done. At least, I hope not. If their purpose is to destroy small clans, then I think it's just time to move on to another game.

How big is the biggest clan? Even if it's 4000 members or something, it's still dwarfed by the amount in small clans (10 or less) or medium clans (10+ to 100), and it's a shame to sacrifice all those players and how *they* want to play in the name of greed and Blatantfool's ego trip for his big-clan. And in the long run, between the way the game is actively hostile to new players (no tutorial of any worth, no manual, little in-game help except other players, a chat system that's difficult to read and use, few weapons available without using the Foundry and collecting lots of materials they won't even know where to find) and it's hostility to small clans and groups of friends in favor of large bodies of faceless masses, and it's de facto standard of making new content pay to play, I don't think the game will last to get out of Beta. Every game needs to fight attrition with new players, and while it may technically still be in Beta, Warframe is very unfriendly to new people, even if the players are generally pretty welcoming. Communication is difficult and there's no easy resource except the wiki for new players to use, and the wiki doesn't really tell you how to play, it just gives you specific (and often outdated) information regarding specific things, like where to get a blueprint or a material, or what a specific mod or artifact does. Correcting this would both be in DE's best interest and the rest of the players who wish to continue to have a thriving game to play. And one of the biggest steps DE needs to make is to make smaller clans, which are generally what new players will join or form, for feasible and give them access to the same content huge clans can access, even if it's not right away. Right now the forma gate is the biggest problem, and it needs to be lessened or removed by a great deal, and forma needs to be mostly for modifying polarity. I shudder to think about future weapons and frames that will require forma just to make.

Reducing the forma costs, or removing them, from the dojo eliminates that barrier. All of the other materials drop frequently enough for a player to feel like they're making progress, including the blue materials for research. Forma doesn't, and it's not an impulse by when you need to spend 100 plat to build a hallway or 500 for a great hall that you only need so you can build other rooms you actually want.

If this is 'devaluing' the hard work of thousands of players in big clans who basically contributed miniscule amounts in order to make their dojo in a few days instead of months, then screw their 'hard' work. Devaluing a tiny contribution collected over hundreds or thousands vs a giant contribution collected over a few but from a pool of say, 10 times as many players, is stupid. If you donated 100 alloy plate and 1000 salvage so your OMGWTFBBQ gigantor clan could build a hallway, and I donated 1000 alloy plate and 10000 salvage, I'm devaluing your contribution by asking that the total amounts be less for everyone? How? Because your clan spent more in total than new clans will?

Well let me throw back in your face something often thrown in mine when people don't want to talk about changes DE is making. The game is still in Beta, and subject to change. If you don't like that you had to spend more, as a clan, then tough turkey. Adapt or quit.

Yes, I know, it's a stupid argument. It's stupid when it's thrown at me too. The time for discussing changes and trying to get positive change is now, while it's in Beta, not later, when it's not.

That's why it's so stupid for big-clan players to come in and say 'STFU, join a big clan or GTFO'. The whole point of feedback now is to effect change so that the game is better for everyone, and supports everyone's desired playstyle as best as possible, and lets DE make a profit. The best way to do that is not to cater to a few who are in big clans, but to cater to everyone, small clans included, and to have DE lower the price gate individually so players feel more comfortable spending money. I won't hesitate, for example, to spend 20 plat on a room for my dojo; that's an impulse decision and I don't think about it much. At 100, I'm really thinking hard about it, and beyond that I just won't. I start looking at the cost in real money for that platinum, and I won't justify it for a virtual good that disappears with the game.

If DE wants to make REAL money, they need to make things cheaper to buy so people buy them more often, rather than more expensive so most just grind it out or quit. And it just so happens that also benefits the players, who now have to spend less individually but are more likely to spend more in total because it's just another candy bar or cup of coffee they won't buy. When it starts to be the price of buying another game, they'll just buy another game.

[fuzzywombat]

I'm of the generation of gamers growing older and having less time to play (i.e. work). A lot of online friends have simply faded away. So in my case I play largely by myself doing public games and trying to add a friend or two on my list so I know someone competent/fun to play with. As soon as update 8 hit it was a no brainer to me: Join a massive clan. The dojo in its current state is nothing more than a new piece of "very large gear" to farm. I'm the type of gamer now that I'd like to play with people, but I don't have time for ridiculous "clan apps" and trial membership BS.

This update was blatantly obvious that building one massive guild was the way to go. I just want the dojo's rewards, I could care less about building my own shiny little tower. By myself, building a dojo is impossible. With 10 people it's impossible. Either a 50 person clan has to play the game non-stop or you simply merge clans to number in the hundreds in order to come close to the dojo requirements for building.

More importantly, the most frustrating thing for me is that the entire social interface - friends list, chat, lack of filters, cumbersome alternation between tabs - is so burdensome that I'd spend more time clicking through windows than I would playing the game. If I were still trying to play solo it's not possible to join advertised void runs/farm groups because finding an organized group is nothing more than the first 3 people that respond "invite me." Simply put, the entire social UI really needs work to move fluidly and actually be a useful tool.

A lot of counters to my argument will be "don't join a big clan then lololol" or "well you play solo so you aren't allowed to try any of the new content." Before update 8 I had every warframe, helmet, main gun, pistol and melee. Farmed by myself. And all leveled to 30. The point is before this update 8 I was able to do everything in the game and have access to everything. The current state of the game absolutely forces people to form large clans in order to experience the new content, which in turn causes barriers of entry for new players.

Normally the hardcore gamer is much more vocal on the forums so it appears that "Hey, this is what the playerbase wants" when you may have 50% of your playerbase that have never made a single forum post.

tl;dr Forced to make huge clans, lack of useful chat UI and finding groups and the dojo's current requirements add a wall to content.

[ArsVampyre]

This is also my understanding of the current situation.

 

 500+ isn't the norm. 10 isn't a good place to balance for. 50-100 is different.

If the majority of players are in clans of 10 or less, yes it is a good place to balance for. It's the perfect place to balance for. If it's 20 players, balance it for that. If it's really 50 players, so be it. I highly doubt that.

[Blatantfool]

If the majority of players are in clans of 10 or less, yes it is a good place to balance for. It's the perfect place to balance for. If it's 20 players, balance it for that. If it's really 50 players, so be it. I highly doubt that.

 

 Right then. Wanna share the statistics you have to back that up?

[Dousiq]

You guys do realize that Warbros, while having a huge member base, only has roughly 250-300 contributing, active players? And it's not like people 'join us for a free ride without contributing anything,' hell, we aren't even accepting applications right now (and probably won't be for quite some time).

 

Yes, we powered through the dojo, but that is because most of the active members have been playing for a long time and have accumulated a lot of resources. Not only that, but many were willing to plunk down some money for Forma. I think being able to keep such a large clan size without things falling apart is deserving of the reward of a quickly built dojo.

 

I do agree that the prices are a bit high, but personally I had enough Polymer bundle to fund the entire prod research (I wasn't able to donate it all because of the zerg rush to donate), and let's not even talk about my veritable mountains of Nanospores.

 

What it boils down to is that Warbros has a lot of long-time players who are still with the game and still picking up those resources after several months, and that's why we have a nearly-complete dojo. If a smaller clan had 20-30 members that had been playing a respectable amount of time for several months, they would have enough resources to start up at least a dojo hall. Aside from the forma, for which the requirements should be toned down a bit in my opinion.

 

Edit: I wish my clan members would stop flopping around our dojo and bragging about it, because it just causes people to get jealous and angry, and they in turn petition DE for things like clan size limits and the like.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Dousiq

[Feneckus]

As a member of Warbros, I've contributed over 55k ferrite, 6k alloy plate, 17k circuits, 115k nanospores, 3k plastids, 22k polymer bundles, 65k salvage, and over 350k credits. Please tell me how we're all getting a free ride.

1. Given how many members your "clan" has, a significant amount of people contributed MUCH less. Or even not at all. I don't see your point.

2. As a member of a small clan, that's basically my contribution just to build a connector and a reactor.

3. Technically you did get a "free" ride because you didn't have to purchase any forma, which is what really kills small clans.

[ArsVampyre]

Right then. Wanna share the statistics you have to back that up?

Back what up? That they should balance to the majority of their players?

Let me put it this way: if there are 40000 active players, and 1500 Warbros, do you think Warbros represent the average player? Why? if big clans make up 10000 players total, that still means 30000 players AREN'T in big clans, so 75%. You think they should balance based on your 25%? That makes no sense.

So 50 players is the number they're balancing on? Why? Did they provide statistics showing most players are in clans of 50? I'm willing to bet most players are in clans of 5 or less, or not in a clan at all. I can't prove it; I don't have access to that data, and neither do you, directly. What I can say is that while this update definately has pushed a lot of people in small clans to quit and join big clans, prior to it, small clans were certainly the de facto norm because they were easy to make and in a game for 4 players at a time, the majority of people would make a clan of 4 or so players who they play with regularly. That's the point of a clan. The point of a friend's list is a list of people you know or meet who you might occasionally talk or play with. That's why friends list doesn't get a chat channel; they don't need one. You're only going to send them individual messages or nothing at all.

So I'm not really getting your point. I basically say balance it around the way the majority of the players play, and that I don't think it's likely that most of them are in large clans. To me, in a game where you can only play with 3 other players maximum, a clan of 50 is large, and it's also the size limit for how many players can be in the dojo at once. Coincidence?

You want to be in a clan of 1000+? Be my guest. I'm not talking about taking anything away from your or taking a crap on how you want to play. Why are you so intent on doing that to me and the many people who want to play the way I play, with a core group of people that I know and talk to regularly? What is so offensive about the idea that I don't want to play the way you do that you think I shouldn't be able to play parts of the game all together?

My only conclusion is ego. If I'm not doing what you're doing, and I don't want to, then there must be something wrong with what you're doing, or what I'm doing, and you don't want it to be what you're doing. That's a false premise there, so you're giving an illogical response. There's no need to worry about them reducing the costs of dojo rooms; you don't lose your rooms, you don't lose your contribution, and you're still just as special of a snowflake as before. If I don't want to play your way, why do I have to?

[Dousiq]

1500 Warbros

Once again, we only have 250-300 active players. At any given time we only have roughly 130 online. Please do not keep spreading this misconception that our clan is a 1300 player monolith that has enough members to do every mission at once twice over. If it were so the clan chat would be unusable.

[Derpius]

Back what up? That they should balance to the majority of their players?

Let me put it this way: if there are 40000 active players, and 1500 Warbros, do you think Warbros represent the average player? Why? if big clans make up 10000 players total, that still means 30000 players AREN'T in big clans, so 75%. You think they should balance based on your 25%? That makes no sense.

So 50 players is the number they're balancing on? Why? Did they provide statistics showing most players are in clans of 50? I'm willing to bet most players are in clans of 5 or less, or not in a clan at all. I can't prove it; I don't have access to that data, and neither do you, directly. What I can say is that while this update definately has pushed a lot of people in small clans to quit and join big clans, prior to it, small clans were certainly the de facto norm because they were easy to make and in a game for 4 players at a time, the majority of people would make a clan of 4 or so players who they play with regularly. That's the point of a clan. The point of a friend's list is a list of people you know or meet who you might occasionally talk or play with. That's why friends list doesn't get a chat channel; they don't need one. You're only going to send them individual messages or nothing at all.

So I'm not really getting your point. I basically say balance it around the way the majority of the players play, and that I don't think it's likely that most of them are in large clans. To me, in a game where you can only play with 3 other players maximum, a clan of 50 is large, and it's also the size limit for how many players can be in the dojo at once. Coincidence?

You want to be in a clan of 1000+? Be my guest. I'm not talking about taking anything away from your or taking a crap on how you want to play. Why are you so intent on doing that to me and the many people who want to play the way I play, with a core group of people that I know and talk to regularly? What is so offensive about the idea that I don't want to play the way you do that you think I shouldn't be able to play parts of the game all together?

My only conclusion is ego. If I'm not doing what you're doing, and I don't want to, then there must be something wrong with what you're doing, or what I'm doing, and you don't want it to be what you're doing. That's a false premise there, so you're giving an illogical response. There's no need to worry about them reducing the costs of dojo rooms; you don't lose your rooms, you don't lose your contribution, and you're still just as special of a snowflake as before. If I don't want to play your way, why do I have to?

 

It is pretty obvious that DE have access to player statistics that we do not, which is why they balance content the way they do.

 

You want them to balance them around a lesser amount of player because that is what you roll with, you give the same disregard as to whether if such a change will put the larger clans in a dismal position. As long as you get what you want, you do not care what is done or the consequence that results. So stop being a hypocrite and simply admit that you do not have any statistics to back up any claim. Do keep in mind that it would take 10 five man clan to equal a single 50 man clan.

[Mak_Gohae]

It is just as reasonable, or UNreasonable to ask for small clans to pay the costs of http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Research

1000 of these resources that drop in bundles of 1 or 2?

Anything under 20 people will not be able to finish that in anywhere near a decent time. They may aswell join a big clan, craft the weapons and then return.

 

I would do that too if the friends I played with weren't driven off already. So I joined a large clan because I can't be bothered.

 

Decent time? What's a "decent time"? If you have less people to work with you know that is going to take longer and since you CHOSE to work with less people as benefit because you dont like the other option so you should also take the disadvantages.

 

This is how much Fielderon i have obtained since U8 came out and i am in my one-man-clan so i am just pugging.

 

In 5 days i got 29 of those.

 

29 x 15 = 435

29 x 10 = 290

29 x 5   = 145

 

Are you going to tell me these are not good chunk taken away from that 1k number? If you are in a clan that is all small and super friendly this is going to be a breeze. Have one dude equip Thief's Wit ( i do this now all the time) and run through a stage opening every container, locker, and killing everything that appears in front of you including Osprey and Crawlers ( i see some people run pass these two).

 

 

Another example is this.

 

 

15k of Alloy for some rooms.

It cost 350 for one of these helms alone... how many of them have you built? Cause i almost got all of them and that comes out to close to a quarter of the 15k. The mats are not a problem, the problem are people not wanting to farm. That's and understandable argument but the argument that the mats are too much is not.

 

The only thing that is really a problem is the Forma because i haven't seen one drop for me yet from anywhere.

If you are not all worried about the number of mats you need to reach and you plow through that but dont want to pay THIS!.....is the only actual raod block between big and small clans because once that Forma drops from an alert the bigger clan is going to get more. Or the bigger clan is going to have a better chance from farming them. 

 

Seriously, the number of mats now is not that big of a problem.

Double seriously, max out Thief's Wit and equip it.

[Sniktch]

It's not like you have to DEAL with anyone or TALK to anyone. The chat is always minimized so you always feel alone. No one forces you do deal with anyone. You just join and shut up. No one expects you to talk or even donate. Just join and pretend NOTHING is any different. 

 

All you have to do is join, get the weapons(Donate if you want stuff faster), and use them. THATS IT. How is that so hard.

 

I don't even stare at the Asuro clan chat, only look for void runs and thats it, I remain a lone wolf, I still solo, I still ignore everyone and at the end of the day, i shall claim my RPG, Flamethrower and any energy weapons WITHOUT doing a damn thing!(Well, I always share my void runs with clan members so more voids runs for them and easy void runs for me, ok I'm just using them but so what, better than non clan members). No socializing AT ALL (outside void run matters)! NO dealing with anybody outside clan void runs.

 

Its that easy and guess what, I am going to be blowing stuff to hell in your face while you're still shooting led. And I shall remain the lone warrior and NOTHING has changed since I joined the clan. Everything s still the same and i speak to no one. SO there.

 

It's join signing up for twitter to get feeds on Alerts, its NO different. 

 

 

....so how is that a clan, precisely?  What, exactly, is the connection between you and your clanmates?  Zero chat, zero co-operation, zero interaction aside getting access to labs in exchange for pumping their headcount.  That's not clan, that's "clan".  Mercenary.  Ronin.  Honorless, and ultimately barren of soul.

 

Clan is family.  Clan is those you trust implicity, automatically.  Clan is the people you would die or kill for.  Not the random dudes with the most shinies that you're going to ditch as soon as you get them.  Clan is more than a resource - it is an obligation, a duty, a burden, and a history.  You have none of that.  Call it "clan" if you want; it is no more a clan than a pig is a bird.

 

BlatantFool:  You keep pointing out it takes 50 "active/very active" players to get a dojo off the ground.  You've also commented that your clan, 1300 strong, has about 130 "active/very active" players.  Note the percentage correlation.  50 "active/very active" is in general going to equate to 500 - even being kind and giving a 2:1 "ghost" to "grinder" ratio, that's still 150 people.  I have zero interest in trying to herd 150 people.  Ever. 

 

I play with those I trust.  Those I've known for years, given a shoulder in hard times, and leaned on in turn.  Those I know in my heart, not just my voicechat.  The people I would sacrifice anything for.  There aren't many - that is as it should be.  Because I am part of  a clan.  Not a "clan".

[Derpius]

....so how is that a clan, precisely?  What, exactly, is the connection between you and your clanmates?  Zero chat, zero co-operation, zero interaction aside getting access to labs in exchange for pumping their headcount.  That's not clan, that's "clan".  Mercenary.  Ronin.  Honorless, and ultimately barren of soul.

 

Clan is family.  Clan is those you trust implicity, automatically.  Clan is the people you would die or kill for.  Not the random dudes with the most shinies that you're going to ditch as soon as you get them.  Clan is more than a resource - it is an obligation, a duty, a burden, and a history.  You have none of that.  Call it "clan" if you want; it is no more a clan than a pig is a bird.

 

BlatantFool:  You keep pointing out it takes 50 "active/very active" players to get a dojo off the ground.  You've also commented that your clan, 1300 strong, has about 130 "active/very active" players.  Note the percentage correlation.  50 "active/very active" is in general going to equate to 500 - even being kind and giving a 2:1 "ghost" to "grinder" ratio, that's still 150 people.  I have zero interest in trying to herd 150 people.  Ever. 

 

I play with those I trust.  Those I've known for years, given a shoulder in hard times, and leaned on in turn.  Those I know in my heart, not just my voicechat.  The people I would sacrifice anything for.  There aren't many - that is as it should be.  Because I am part of  a clan.  Not a "clan".

 

Last I checked, I do not see a disclaimer making those claims when starting up a clan. Those are ideals you super imposed into the game. Clan is what you want it to be. There are obviously downsides to each decision. In a small clan, you get be to closer with everyone, but you don't have access to the vast man power larger clans have.

 

The 50 number is what DE have given, it is what they will balance around, which is the reasonable amount of player it'll take to complete a dojo within a reasonable amount of time.

[psyanide]

*sigh* OK, my reason for not appreciating the current Dojo system being geared towards large clans is largely aesthetic. You see, I had this idea that we, as Tenno, were something special in the universe, not simply another faction vying for ultimate control and power. I have 6 people in my clan, and I visualized the Dojo as our base of operations - a discreet HQ for a secretive faction with super human abilities that go out on surgical strike missions, slowly crippling the reigning oppressive regime (Grineer Empire) while also coming into conflict with other groups along the way, all the while learning more of their purpose and role in the galaxy.

 

So, more along the lines of the Ninja Turtles' den than S.H.I.E.L.D Headquarters. Each member is well known to the others and each pulls his weight in adding to what they would come to view as their own and be truly proud of. As it stands, all the Dojo exists as is a means to an end (Weapon BP's) where a bunch of essentially faceless individuals stand around AFK or do silly jump routines while waiting for the next raiding party to go out. Yes, this is what most all other MMO's do and, man, oh man, I am bloody sick and tired of them and their complete and utter lack of innovative ideas. WarFrame has something special going for it with its focus on intense, small group skirmishes, and I feel that they ought to ride with that, as that is the game's strong point. 

 

Hands up if you do not think that a faceless sea of individuals adds anything real to a game. The fact that there is a human being on the other side of each and every avatar means absolutely zilch to me - the novelty of MMO wore off when I realized that most of the rest of the world are complete a$$holes, or at least their internet personas are, which amounts to the same because that happens to be the only method of interaction you will ever have with them. I have enough friends in real life to group up and play most multiplayer games with, since back in the days of splitscreen Crash Team Racing on the PSX and late night LAN's with StarCraft and Counter Strike (and HOMM 3, for some reason or other... I digress)- it has always been more fun (for me, personally) to play with people I actually know. Unfortunately, I do not know 50 people that play WarFrame.

 

That all said, it would have been nice to be able to (in a realistic time-frame) build something like the Dojo together with people that I know. I feel it makes a huge difference in your personal satisfaction and sense of accomplishment with the end result.   

Edited May 28, 2013 by psyanide

[ArsVampyre]

It is pretty obvious that DE have access to player statistics that we do not, which is why they balance content the way they do.

I'm sure they do. We've no reason to believe they use that information, or that they use it the way you think they should, or in the best way possible. That's why I said if the majority of players are in 50 member clans, balance for that. Or you can just ignore the parts that you don't want to argue against because it defeats your hatred.

You want them to balance them around a lesser amount of player because that is what you roll with, you give the same disregard as to whether if such a change will put the larger clans in a dismal position. As long as you get what you want, you do not care what is done or the consequence that results. So stop being a hypocrite and simply admit that you do not have any statistics to back up any claim. Do keep in mind that it would take 10 five man clan to equal a single 50 man clan.

I want them to balance them around the majority of their player base, which I think are mostly people in smaller clans rather than bigger clans. If there are 5000 small 5-man clans, 200 50-man clans, and 20 100+ member clans, the 5 man clans still make up the majority of players by a large margin. That's the nature of the beast. I could be wrong.

At any rate, even if I am wrong, if the prices are set lower for small clans, it doesn't hurt the big clans. They don't pay more; they pay the same thing.

Even beyond that, I'm ok with the materials pricing being what it is now, I just want the forma part dropped or massively reduced. It amounts to pay to play, because so much of the content of Update 8 is locked behind Forma, which realistically has to be bought to get the amounts needed for Dojo research availability.

I realize you didn't read the big post, like most don't. The big post basically says what's wrong, why it's wrong, and what to do to fix it in a way that everyone is happy. If you're not going to bother with that, don't keep pestering about 'constructive feedback', because that's the nature of constructive feedback.

It seems to me that most people just want this to be an echo chamber. That's not useful.

[Derpius]

I'm sure they do. We've no reason to believe they use that information, or that they use it the way you think they should, or in the best way possible. That's why I said if the majority of players are in 50 member clans, balance for that. Or you can just ignore the parts that you don't want to argue against because it defeats your hatred.

I want them to balance them around the majority of their player base, which I think are mostly people in smaller clans rather than bigger clans. If there are 5000 small 5-man clans, 200 50-man clans, and 20 100+ member clans, the 5 man clans still make up the majority of players by a large margin. That's the nature of the beast. I could be wrong.

At any rate, even if I am wrong, if the prices are set lower for small clans, it doesn't hurt the big clans. They don't pay more; they pay the same thing.

Even beyond that, I'm ok with the materials pricing being what it is now, I just want the forma part dropped or massively reduced. It amounts to pay to play, because so much of the content of Update 8 is locked behind Forma, which realistically has to be bought to get the amounts needed for Dojo research availability.

I realize you didn't read the big post, like most don't. The big post basically says what's wrong, why it's wrong, and what to do to fix it in a way that everyone is happy. If you're not going to bother with that, don't keep pestering about 'constructive feedback', because that's the nature of constructive feedback.

It seems to me that most people just want this to be an echo chamber. That's not useful.

 

Once again, what you believe in is unimportant, if not completely irrelevant, you're free to believe in what you wish. If you want others to support your idea, you'll need some statistics to back up your claims.

 

You can make up as many arbitrary numbers you want, they will remain nothing more until you back it up.

[Firebat86]

Gave up reading the last page, but just wanted to add a few pieces of information.  DESteve was in Council chat Friday night I believe, and we were talking about dojo req's and the clan size they base req's etc on was around 20 or so.  I can completely see this being a fair target size. 

 

I started playing this game, then got more and more friends to come and try and they too have become addicted.  Started out with 7 RL friends and family in our clan, then we met some people while playing so it grew to about a dozen members.  Once U8 was coming we started looking for people in groups who shared the same play style etc and recruited that way.  Now we have about 20 members and have 2 cross connectors, a reactor, an oracle lab, and are waiting for the second cross to complete to start building an energy lab.  This is in the first weekend of U8... I feel like this content was added so that you could set goals and work together, not just blow through it like the large clans have.

 

Once the dojo is complete it will be a feeling of satisfaction that our small guild accomplished this.  I guess my point is, this game, much like life, isn't always about instant gratification.  If you join one of these massive zerg guilds, get your guns or whatever and leave, what was the point? Congrats you have the guns, didn't really earn them, and completely gyped yourself out of entertainment.

 

For those of you who see forma as a gate I would suggest this method.  We have a few groups farming keys.  When the group gets 4 keys, each of those people takes a group of people within the clan who did not get one.  This way on the off chance of multiple keys yielding forma or forma BP's, we can have 4-16 building at any given time.

[ArsVampyre]

And for those many people who did 30+ void runs and didn't get a single forma, forma bp, or anything else beside the same Reaper handle and latron prime reciever bps?

Farming forma isn't realistic, not in the current rarity. It's a pay-to-play gate, and nothing else. People buying forma seem to make the same argument, like it just falls out of the sky along with keys. I got 3 keys friday, and none since, despite it being a long weekend and putting more hours than normal directly into farming for keys (and other materials).

The only forma I got was as a login reward. If they as rare as catalyst BP login rewards, it'll take months before I see another one, even logging in every day.

You can't farm forma; not as anything but a large clan, unless there is some trick that some of you know and aren't telling the reset of us. Certainly farming defense missions does NOT work.

[Blatantfool]

"I'm not rolling in Forma yet so no one else could be. This isn't right. It must be large clans. Yeah. That is the problem."

 

 Reread his post Ars. He is in a clan of about a dozen people. He says it outright.

[Derpius]

And for those many people who did 30+ void runs and didn't get a single forma, forma bp, or anything else beside the same Reaper handle and latron prime reciever bps?

Farming forma isn't realistic, not in the current rarity. It's a pay-to-play gate, and nothing else. People buying forma seem to make the same argument, like it just falls out of the sky along with keys. I got 3 keys friday, and none since, despite it being a long weekend and putting more hours than normal directly into farming for keys (and other materials).

The only forma I got was as a login reward. If they as rare as catalyst BP login rewards, it'll take months before I see another one, even logging in every day.

You can't farm forma; not as anything but a large clan, unless there is some trick that some of you know and aren't telling the reset of us. Certainly farming defense missions does NOT work.

 

Forma isn't quite as bad as Latron Prime receiver and Reaper Prime blades. The general method my clan use to farm forma consist of running low level defense missions such as Io for keys, than taking four other people from the clan on the void run to maximize the benefit to the clan. In my first two void run, I got a forma BP and a Latron Prime BP. Based on the statistics compiled by my clan, forma is a fairly common drop. The problem lies in getting the void keys. Which should be made a much more common drop.

[Firebat86]

And for those many people who did 30+ void runs and didn't get a single forma, forma bp, or anything else beside the same Reaper handle and latron prime reciever bps?

Farming forma isn't realistic, not in the current rarity. It's a pay-to-play gate, and nothing else. People buying forma seem to make the same argument, like it just falls out of the sky along with keys. I got 3 keys friday, and none since, despite it being a long weekend and putting more hours than normal directly into farming for keys (and other materials).

The only forma I got was as a login reward. If they as rare as catalyst BP login rewards, it'll take months before I see another one, even logging in every day.

You can't farm forma; not as anything but a large clan, unless there is some trick that some of you know and aren't telling the reset of us. Certainly farming defense missions does NOT work.

 

Maybe we're lucky, but we farm Pluto defense and high lvl raid missions.  Have the best chance at minimum T2 void keys and T3 keys.  I'm pretty sure I've only ran maybe 1 T3 where we didn't get a forma BP?  Again maybe just luck? Who knows!  But when we got 4 keys for a T3, ran them with 16 other members and magically we all got forma BP's I'm thinking it might have something to do with the T3 loot table ATM.

[ArsVampyre]

Sounds broken as hell. Why would you all get the same loot drop across four different void runs when run at the same time? Is the drop based on time when you run it rather than a generated reward at completion?

And why run with 3 people who didn't get a key? Why not run with the same people who get keys? You could all do four runs then? I don't understand why you spread it out... is it just so your whole clan gets a chance at a run?

I don't think Firebat is saying his clan farmed the forma to make their rooms. I think he's saying that's what his clan is doing. So far my clan has a cross connector and a reactor, and for both it was because someone bought the forma. We're paying the same prices in materials and the forma is the only thing people have a problem with (ok, they whine about the alloy plate a bit, but that's just because everything you make in the foundry seems to require a ton of alloy).

Finally, I didn't blame large clans for anything, Blatantfool. I certainly hope they're not to blame for your rude attitude. Forma is too rare to be considered a building material, IMO, at least in the amounts required now. I don't see how it disadvantages your clan if DE lowers the cost. It's not like they take the building away or something.

The only one who has a problem here is you, BF. I don't have a problem with Warbros having a dojo in less than 24 hours. I just don't think the current cost in forma is reasonable. For anyone.

If you had to use orokin reactors would you consider it reasonable? Same cost.

[Derpius]

Sounds broken as hell. Why would you all get the same loot drop across four different void runs when run at the same time? Is the drop based on time when you run it rather than a generated reward at completion?

And why run with 3 people who didn't get a key? Why not run with the same people who get keys? You could all do four runs then? I don't understand why you spread it out... is it just so your whole clan gets a chance at a run?

I don't think Firebat is saying his clan farmed the forma to make their rooms. I think he's saying that's what his clan is doing. So far my clan has a cross connector and a reactor, and for both it was because someone bought the forma. We're paying the same prices in materials and the forma is the only thing people have a problem with (ok, they whine about the alloy plate a bit, but that's just because everything you make in the foundry seems to require a ton of alloy).

Finally, I didn't blame large clans for anything, Blatantfool. I certainly hope they're not to blame for your rude attitude. Forma is too rare to be considered a building material, IMO, at least in the amounts required now. I don't see how it disadvantages your clan if DE lowers the cost. It's not like they take the building away or something.

The only one who has a problem here is you, BF. I don't have a problem with Warbros having a dojo in less than 24 hours. I just don't think the current cost in forma is reasonable. For anyone.

If you had to use orokin reactors would you consider it reasonable? Same cost.

 

It is more efficient for key carriers to carry non key carriers, so that consecutive runs can be done at the same time rather than having all four key carrier in a single group and do runs back to back. The quicker the runs are done, the faster you can get back to farming keys. It is about tackling the task efficiently.

 

Secondly, I do not believe BF said anything rude, he simply disagreed and offered his reason why.

 

Orokin Reactor would be a much better mats than Forma, since it is something that have been around for a while. Many of us have several BP or already baked potato lying around.