What I Had To Say To My Clan That I'm Not Happy About At All

[Firebat86]

Sounds broken as hell. Why would you all get the same loot drop across four different void runs when run at the same time? Is the drop based on time when you run it rather than a generated reward at completion?

And why run with 3 people who didn't get a key? Why not run with the same people who get keys? You could all do four runs then? I don't understand why you spread it out... is it just so your whole clan gets a chance at a run?

I don't think Firebat is saying his clan farmed the forma to make their rooms. I think he's saying that's what his clan is doing. So far my clan has a cross connector and a reactor, and for both it was because someone bought the forma. We're paying the same prices in materials and the forma is the only thing people have a problem with (ok, they whine about the alloy plate a bit, but that's just because everything you make in the foundry seems to require a ton of alloy).

Finally, I didn't blame large clans for anything, Blatantfool. I certainly hope they're not to blame for your rude attitude. Forma is too rare to be considered a building material, IMO, at least in the amounts required now. I don't see how it disadvantages your clan if DE lowers the cost. It's not like they take the building away or something.

The only one who has a problem here is you, BF. I don't have a problem with Warbros having a dojo in less than 24 hours. I just don't think the current cost in forma is reasonable. For anyone.

If you had to use orokin reactors would you consider it reasonable? Same cost.

 

No definitely saying we farmed the forma for our rooms.  We split it up that way because you can only build ONE forma at a time.  So you run it with the same four people, you get say 3-4 BP's, that's 3-4 DAYS to get the forma.  Run it with different people, they use their resources and foundry to build and you get the 12-16 or however many forma in a DAY.  So yea it's about efficiency and also giving people in the guild who aren't as lucky, or just haven't seen as many keys etc a chance to get a void run.  All goes back to that knowing your small clan and wanting to help out and work as a TEAM idea.  Not a HAHA we got keys suckers thing!

Edited May 28, 2013 by Firebat86

[Nod_Off]

Seeing as DE did not release dojos to be completed in a week, or even two. The fact remains that it is entirely possible for a clan of 20 to finish the dojo in a month maybe two with active members.

Which would make the content last, as I am sure is what they wanted.

To be honest,I am surprised there are as many people with Frost Prime, Latron Prime, and the Reaper Prime already as there are... I expected them to make it much harder to acquire.

[ArsVampyre]

"I'm not rolling in Forma yet so no one else could be. This isn't right. It must be large clans. Yeah. That is the problem."

 

 Reread his post Ars. He is in a clan of about a dozen people. He says it outright.

This is rude. It's misstating everything I said, reducing it to something I didn't say, and then saying I didn't read his post when I did. Its the basis of a particular logical argument flaw called a 'strawman' where the person using the logical flaw creates a false argument they can beat rather than face the actual argument presented. No where did I say no one else could have forma without buying it. No where did I blame large clans for that.

So yes, he is rude. He's been consistently rude to anyone who doesn't agree with him.

----------------

Firebat: So far no one in my clan, or the friends we have outside the clan, has got a single forma from a void key mission. I know people do. I wonder how many keys you get a day, and how long that takes?

I also wonder why having to pay less forma to make your dojo is something bad. You're essentially saying your clan farmed 35 forma in 3 days or so, which for a clan of 20 makes me think you guys play all day every day or something, so I was wanting a realistic take on the amount of time invested to get those drops.

-----------------------

I'm not going to change my opinion about the forma; it's price is adequate when used to redo polarity because it's functionally around the same power as buying a catalyst for a weapon or a reactor for a frame. As a material used in quantity in order to make things, it's cost is ridiculous. Would anyone pay 20 Platinum for a neurode or a control module?

It's perfectly fine to disagree. It's not fine to do so in a disrespectful and disingenuous manner which implies insult. I appreciate any genuine responses, and I'm sure DE appreciates genuine feedback.

[Foxbyte]

Making dojo rooms cheaper, but making research cost more seems like it would work well if we put a cap to resources on the research on a daily basis. Feed the research, 24hour time starts. Feed it more, have another period of processing. Small clans could afford to build the facilities, and could work together to make the daily requirements [or maybe take a few days or a week per period], while large clans can take the needed materials out of a central bank [we *are* getting clan resource storage, right guys?] and finish more on time.

 

On top of this have different tiers of research stations that can do each research cycle faster but they cost far more than the basic one to build AND to run. Voila. Large, wealthy clans can dump tremendous resources into producing blueprints faster, while smaller clans can still work together to get a few unique blueprints. Everyone is happy, there's advantages to both small and large clans, and we can all work together in harmony and get back to the more important things in life; dressing your sentinel up like Lotus and putting on puppet shows.

[Kubae420]

So this discussion has been gone over time and time again in 4 days.....

 

This is coming from the leader of a 20 man clan, 7 of which play every day. We're perfectly capable of building a dojo in a reasonable ammount of time. Within 2 months we'll have everything set up the way we want it (don't need a S#&$ ton of hallways that lead to nowhere, or 3 dojo rooms). If I had to complain about any portion of the costs at all, it would be the forma, and even then, you increase the drop rate of the forma (BP) in t1 keys , and i'm set. It's not even a big enough deal to me to do anything more than that.

 

Small clans ABSOLUTELY have a chance at getting all the materials other than the forma at a reasonable rate. it's not like resource drops are rare, and 120k nano spores between 10 people, is 2 hours of running xini, that's trash. 12k plate for 10 people ? 2 hours of farming anywhere in pluto. what you need to do is stop *@##$ing about the cost of the rooms, and lead your clan in the proper direction of aquiring what is needed rather than let them just $&*^ off on their own.

[Tekkaman-Blade]

A lot of people who played hard core from closed to open beta had a ridiculous stock pile of resources. In reality a clan of 30-50 made up of mostly new players takes over a week to get all the resources and significantly longer for Forma (unless we have someone willing to put up 10-20 dollars a room.

 

 

 

2 changes I would make are connecting rooms require no forma and connecting rooms require less resources. Maybe lower forma cost on a few.

[Workaround]

What I'm wondering is why a small clan should build a Dojo at all at this point?

 

Farm up the mats for the rare items. Join a big clan with an open recruitment policy. Build the rare items. Drop the clan. Frankly having more than 2 or 3 clan dojos at all seems stupid. 

[Digestia]

Or have resource costs scale depending on the number of members, instead of slapping a single price over everything.

 

If you've got 5 people, why would you invest the resources that 500 people would need? You don't cater to one group, because their gameplay experience isn't more important than someone in a smaller clan.

This. A million times this. I was actually considering opening a thread on this (which is why I went here).

[Kyrkitao]

This. A million times this. I was actually considering opening a thread on this (which is why I went here).

Scaling resource costs is not a valid solution. I'm in a two man clan and I oppose this. There are much better and more elegant solutions.

[Blatantfool]

Scaling resource costs is not a valid solution. I'm in a two man clan and I oppose this. There are much better and more elegant solutions.

 

 They could tier the clans.

 

 Set up tiers at 50/100/200+

 

 Then you tier the rooms. Making some cheaper.

 

 T1 Clan Rooms are easy to build. They are the halls and suck. Any clan can build them no problem..

 

 Once a Clan invites their 51st member they become T2 and unlock more expensive rooms, including tech rooms.

 

 Then their 101st member unlocks them T3 rooms, like the Dueling Room and Great hall and more.

 

 

 

 This making sense to anyone else?

[ArsVampyre]

Sounds worse than the current system. The only reason most people want the dojo at all right now is 1) the research and 2) the broken dueling room, and you'd put that outside their reach for what reason?

How about T1 clan rooms do the same things, they're just uglier. T2 clan rooms look nicer, and T3 clan rooms look awesome. A big clan can build the T1 rooms on the cheap or the T3 rooms on the diamond, and maybe you can upgrade from T1 to T2 for a cost that is equal/greater than the cost difference but less than the cost of a new T2 room of the same type?

That lets everyone access the content but makes the more expensive rooms a 'cosmetic' feature that lets bigger clans show off and is more in tune with the original 'you only have to pay for cosmetic changes' ideal.

The Dueling room and Great hall already cost more than the research which already costs more than nothing. You're not making any sense that way.

[CookieStorm]

 What is the rough number you feel a clan is a 'Small' or 'Large' clan at? Where do you draw the lines?

 

I really am interested to see what answers people come up with to this question, however I think DE would have access to the data that shows how many clans there are, how many players are in them, and how much time each player logs into the game.  I'm going to assume that they looked at that data when they came up with the prices for the dojo.

 

I'm in a very small clan of four people (myself included).  We laughed when we saw the resource costs of the dojo and haven't even bothered with the system since.  Yeah I'm sad I wont be getting any of the spiffy new energy weapons, but our clan is tiny and we're all casual players.  This content was not targeted at us.  Since U8 launched, I am the only one in our clan that has found a forma.  I got it from a log in reward!

[Blatantfool]

Sounds worse than the current system. The only reason most people want the dojo at all right now is 1) the research and 2) the broken dueling room, and you'd put that outside their reach for what reason?

How about T1 clan rooms do the same things, they're just uglier. T2 clan rooms look nicer, and T3 clan rooms look awesome. A big clan can build the T1 rooms on the cheap or the T3 rooms on the diamond, and maybe you can upgrade from T1 to T2 for a cost that is equal/greater than the cost difference but less than the cost of a new T2 room of the same type?

That lets everyone access the content but makes the more expensive rooms a 'cosmetic' feature that lets bigger clans show off and is more in tune with the original 'you only have to pay for cosmetic changes' ideal.

The Dueling room and Great hall already cost more than the research which already costs more than nothing. You're not making any sense that way.

Because the look is unimportant, just the function.

Making obtaining the Halls and smaller rooms easy, then making Tech rooms a simple task once you grow to a half decent size, then you solve a lot of the problems people are having.

Dueling rooms and Great Halls are luxury stuff. So you allow the larger clans to have that luxury content while making sure the parts of the Clan that are needed for function can be obtained as part of a smoother process.

To be honest - I think the changes we are likely to see will be close to this anyway. I'm just giving the different crafting requirement levels a nickname.

I really am interested to see what answers people come up with to this question, however I think DE would have access to the data that shows how many clans there are, how many players are in them, and how much time each player logs into the game. I'm going to assume that they looked at that data when they came up with the prices for the dojo.

I'm in a very small clan of four people (myself included). We laughed when we saw the resource costs of the dojo and haven't even bothered with the system since. Yeah I'm sad I wont be getting any of the spiffy new energy weapons, but our clan is tiny and we're all casual players. This content was not targeted at us. Since U8 launched, I am the only one in our clan that has found a forma. I got it from a log in reward!

From what I read in the Q&A DE is considering interclan trading base on resources. If that means what I think it does it may someday be possible for really large clans to mass-dump resources on smaller clans to help them meet requirements.

Hopefully that isn't me misunderstanding what they said. I rather like the idea of the huge clans being able to sponsor the growth of smaller ones.

[PositronicSpleen]

If the optimal strategy is to form really big clans, big to the point where everyone in the game is in a single clan, then what exactly was the point of having clans in the first place? All this does is punish people for not joining the depersonalizing behemoths.

[IcarusNine]

Because the look is unimportant, just the function.

It would actually be good design for the aesthetic of a clan's dojo to reflect that clan's wealth.

 

And it would also be more of a way to promote variations between clans.  A large clan could have an ostentatious dojo with large, decorated rooms and a palace-like quality, whereas a small clan would be crude or tightly bound.  Or you might see a large clan that is meant mainly for solo players (hearding cats), where the dojo is built exclusively for functionality.

 

Also, dueling rooms could have functional differences.

A dueling room capable of hosting a single 1v1 match, versus a tournament or olympic-scale dueling for multiple simultaneous matches, or even a grand simulation room for dueling between clans with support for spectators, would all be possible Tier-appropriate variations of a theme.

[Neofenrir34]

I have to admit i haven't read the entrie thread i lost interest when it got majorly off topic on like page four. a couple of points/ concerns that i have

.build cost are to high for a normal person in a small clan

.in is not fair to hold game content from players just because they are not in a sizable clan

i am sure i have other issue but just cant think of them right now.

So here is my thought's on how to make the whole dojo system more enjoyable. First lets forget about the whole small, large, medium, average part of making a clan. in the end who cares?

build cost should scale on a per person bassis instead of a per item bassis for building room that is, i can not speak to the researching part as of yet because i am no where close to any of that content.

 

So for example a instead of an item costing

60 000 X

20 000 Y

35 000 Z

5 Forma

 

if it is a single person in said clan make the costs more like

10 000 X

 5 000 Y

 7 500 Z

1 forma

 

and then just increase the cost of building each room proportionaly to the number of people in the clan

it is still a grind but it is doable for clans of any size. So even a two person clan has a chance of getting all the content eventually. Once a room has been planed to build the price is locked in at how many people where in said clan at the time.

As to all the people who ae in big clans and have there stuff built already i dont see why they should get a refund on there resources. After all when you buy the lastest and greatest 70" led lcd 3D tv when it just hits the market for 5000 you dont go back in a year and demand 3000 back because the tv only cost 2000 now. It is the price you pay for the latest and greatest items.

I hope peeople can see the valve in a approach like this

[Brasten]

snip

This functionally doesn't work when played out. This has been brought up before and is quite abusable. By allowing a small clan to create everything at a reduced price you create a system where a clan will either kick everyone but the minimum out and build, or just start small and then bring people in.

There is only one fair way to adjust pricing regardless of clan size....

Make everyone pay. Make the construction cost on the lower end and then make every player pay for access to constructed parts on an individual bases. A fairer way would be to only require payment to access "Feature" rooms that actually have a function. It could even be a one time fee for the type of "Feature" to avoid issues with double paying when leaving (being kicked) and joining a new clan. Although a minimal reoccurring fee already exists in the form of Clan Keys so a "reauthorization" would not be out of the proportion.

This removes the serious advantage Large groups enjoy over far smaller ones. The need for mega groups is in part artificial and dictated by the step construction requirements of even basic Dojo parts. This artificial advantage is not one that should be an "intended" feature. It is a byproduct of a large groups real advantage, man power, having reliable people to play with. People were already choosing to group this way prior to the Dojo's even being a real glimmer, but so too were people forming smaller groups of friends. Neither form of grouping should have a significantly noticeable, and distorting, effect on the system. I say distorting because under the current system, as with the OP, players are encouraged to gather into larger and larger groups. This had distorted and warped the nature of clans in this game and given a decided bias to mega-groups.

[Neofenrir34]

This functionally doesn't work when played out. This has been brought up before and is quite abusable. By allowing a small clan to create everything at a reduced price you create a system where a clan will either kick everyone but the minimum out and build, or just start small and then bring people in.

 

 

Maybe i have missed something? but a clan could kick out as many people as it likes but the cost to each person left in the clan will not technically get any cheaper with this layout, as long as everyone in the clan is pulling there own weight. With no trading system in place it would be up to each person to get the required materials.

[Maully]

If the optimal strategy is to form really big clans, big to the point where everyone in the game is in a single clan, then what exactly was the point of having clans in the first place? All this does is punish people for not joining the depersonalizing behemoths.

 

Yes. This is exactly the point I've argued with my flatmate. There are currently like four or five SUPER clans that I think are a bit of a testimony to the game's current issues. Join those clans, wham bam thankyou ma'am for the research. 

 

All we want is a space for our clan, where we can meet up and spar, test new gear - research new weapons, perhaps research new mods? Or some other cool feature. There is no reason for it to be so highly priced, except as maybe a desperate reach from DE for cash. 

[Kubae420]

You guys must be really terrible at the game if you're still having issues with anything other than the forma cost. I am the leader of a small clan, 20 people , about 7 play daily, and only for an hour or so a day. there's only 3 of us who play hardcore and we're having 0 problem with funding the dojo. It's not as fast because there's not 3-4 rooms building at once, but for 10 people , 12k plate is an hour farm, maybe... 65k salvage for 10 people ? another hour farming... starting to see the picture here ?

 

 

Instead of everyone whining about how much things cost, how about getting your clans into gear and get them to focus on the objective. Tell those 3-4 guys that are doing nothing but t1 keys back to back all day long to stop $&*^ing around and put an hour into resource farming. It's not hard, and it's not that expensive even for smaller clans.

[TheGreyGuardian]

Why not just have resources instantly scale upwards when new clan members join, but then give it a lengthy down-scaling duration (a week maybe?), while also determining the amount of increase scaling by the amount of joins the clan is getting instead of just the number of people currently in the clan? Still mildly exploitable, but let's be honest, coming up with a 100% unexploitable system is damn near impossible.

 

On a side note, forgetting about the scaling suggestions, what if there was a way to speed up resource gathering when you and your clan mates are farming specifically for materials to build a specific structure? 

 

For example:

While a room is in the resource gathering stage of construction, you can select to start a clan-only private mission and select which room you will be farming materials for.

While doing that mission, any applicable resource drops receive a % bonus and goes directly into the structure's collection pool.

Any non-applicable resource drops are forfeited and null.

Having more clan members in your squad as you do the mission grants a minor % bonus boost to the resources (since you're already collecting that resource once more for each extra clan member in your squad, a big collection bonus boost would be a bit excessive).

*Canceling the build will destroy and forfeit resources deposited in this manner.

 

Not gonna discuss the Forma situation. I'm not a fan of it, and that's all I'll say on the matter.

[Quetzhal]

Not gonna discuss the Forma situation. I'm not a fan of it, and that's all I'll say on the matter.

I think the Forma situation could be largely resolved if the method of acquisition wasn't RNG on top of RNG. As I've suggested, a token system for Void runs would allow players to purchase Forma with much more regularity, and resolves other issues as well - though ideally it would be somewhat easier to get Void keys as well.

Edit: I also like the idea of resource bonuses. It makes sense if you're specifically trying to get that room built. :D

Edited May 29, 2013 by Quetzhal

[fuzzywombat]

I saw this in another thread regarding "getting off your &#! and farming resources for the dojo."

Guy farms tons of resources

Gives them to clan

Clan leader arbitrarily boots the guy.

Guy donated everything for nothing.

There was no drama that caused the booting or anything special, he was just kicked. So he lost access to his dojo and everything that came with it.

Quite frankly, the easiest fix to the dojo problem is to simply GIVE IT TO EVERYONE. Let people have and build hallways and corner connectors and pretty elevators that have no use. Let them duel in a room, it's nothing more than a testing ground anway.

Make only research and BPs have any sort of cost. Tangible rewards being the only thing connected to a cost of the dojo pretty much fixes everything. Too bad it eliminates the massive resource sink and would make DE rebalance drop rates all over.