Why Nerfing Exists - A Lengthy Guide To Why You're Really, Really Wrong

[Kiteless]

Firstly, what a wonderful way of bullS#&$ting your way out of a corner.

 

But I'll indulge you.

 

Perhaps you could be even more effective if you didn't play them just as one trick ponies?

 

All the 'frames in this game has one skill which is usually more useful than his or her other skills. In that sense I could say Excalibur, Loki, Saryn are all also one trick ponies. What I was getting at is that those 'frames skills are perhaps a lot more useful than you think.

 

Excalibur's skillset, while focusing heavily on Slash Dash, still has a lot of use throughout. SD may be the dominant skill, but it certainly isn't the only useful one. Radial Blind and Javelin both strongly support team play.

Aside from Invisibility, Loki's skillset tends to be highly specialized, but each skill is very effective in its own niche, and well worth using.

Saryn's got a well rounded skillset that may be in need of some refinement, but does well enough to supplement her gameplay and make her function as more than just a miasma spam.

 

Nyx makes better use of her mod capacity and slots by not taking Psychic Bolts or Absorb. Rhino (at least, before his nerfs) had no real reason to use anything other than Iron Skin, Volt is played most effectively as an Overcharge on a stick, the only reason anyone actually uses Frost is Snowglobe, and Mag is just awful.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Kiteless

[Notso]

Excalibur's skillset, while focusing heavily on Slash Dash, still has a lot of use throughout. SD may be the dominant skill, but it certainly isn't the only useful one. Radial Blind and Javelin both strongly support team play.

Aside from Invisibility, Loki's skillset tends to be highly specialized, but each skill is very effective in its own niche, and well worth using.

Saryn's got a well rounded skillset that may be in need of some refinement, but does well enough to supplement her gameplay and make her function as more than just a miasma spam.

 

Nyx makes better use of her mod capacity and slots by not taking Psychic Bolts or Absorb. Rhino (at least, before his nerfs) had no real reason to use anything other than Iron Skin, Volt is played most effectively as an Overcharge on a stick, the only reason anyone actually uses Frost is Snowglobe, and Mag is just awful.

 

I'm not saying they're perfect, but do you not see how the same arguments that you made for Excalibur, Loki, Saryn can be made for Frost, Rhino, Nyx, Volt?

 

And I agree Mag is hopeless lol.

[SJunior]

I agree so much with this thread. Thanks for making it OP.

[Demobot]

I refuse to believe any of this. Digital Extremes is only interested in ruining the game and driving away players, thus losing them money, resulting in employee layoffs and the eventual dissolution of the studio. Duh.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Haha, good post. I like the original post by Dullahan so much. It explains things in an easy to understand manner.

I think we will see a lot of rebalancing among frame/power/weapon from now on. Now that U8 can actually live more than a few days for most players, DE will have some time to take a look at things in comparative term. Well, weekly balance change isn't exactly a bad idea after all. Many players got themselves trapped in a mindset that coop game doesn't need balance or 'this item is good, don't touch it' without looking at bigger picture. Sometime they even use 'perfect imbalance' by Extra credit to justify their stance without watching the whole thing.

Good work, sir.

These arguments would ring true if the guys who actually called for nerfs had any idea what makes a given weapon overpowered or not.

But they don't. Not on BSN, not here. The kunai is a perfect example here. People say "ZOMG OP" without realizing that it has one of the highest skill caps in the game, what with being a slow projectile (quite possibly the slowest, maybe after the glaive) that's affected by drop. Then they fail to realize that it's out DPS'd by a whole lot of other handguns, and that if you nerf it, it becomes a complete novelty weapon that people use solely for style because the skill cap is enormous compared to, say, bolto/akbolto/viper/furis/lato/lex/etc.

[Notso]

I refuse to believe any of this. Digital Extremes is only interested in ruining the game and driving away players, thus losing them money, resulting in employee layoffs and the eventual dissolution of the studio. Duh.

 

[Kiteless]

I'm not saying they're perfect, but do you not see how the same arguments that you made for Excalibur, Loki, Saryn can be made for Frost, Rhino, Nyx, Volt?

 

And I agree Mag is hopeless lol.

 

Granted, people take Excalibur and Saryn for a primary reason (Slash Dash and Miasma, let's be honest here), (I won't say the same for Loki. I consider him one of the better designed frames in that aspect, since his skills are so weird and specialized but strangely useful...), but not to the extent that Frost, Rhino, Nyx, and Volt see. At least they function well outside their main claims to fame.

 

And Mag... oh god, Mag. I want to like her. Her premise is badass. She's that poor frame that you just want to wrap in a blanket and softly reassure her that everything is going to be okay, even though you know that it never will be.

[Kiteless]

These arguments would ring true if the guys who actually called for nerfs had any idea what makes a given weapon overpowered or not.

But they don't. Not on BSN, not here. The kunai is a perfect example here. People say "ZOMG OP" without realizing that it has one of the highest skill caps in the game, what with being a slow projectile (quite possibly the slowest, maybe after the glaive) that's affected by drop. Then they fail to realize that it's out DPS'd by a whole lot of other handguns, and that if you nerf it, it becomes a complete novelty weapon that people use solely for style because the skill cap is enormous compared to, say, bolto/akbolto/viper/furis/lato/lex/etc.

 

 

I wouldn't say that the Kunai's skill cap is particularly high, but it's true that I don't think it really needs a nerf. Dual Vipers and Bronco do way more damage.

[Notso]

These arguments would ring true if the guys who actually called for nerfs had any idea what makes a given weapon overpowered or not.

But they don't. Not on BSN, not here. The kunai is a perfect example here. People say "ZOMG OP" without realizing that it has one of the highest skill caps in the game, what with being a slow projectile (quite possibly the slowest, maybe after the glaive) that's affected by drop. Then they fail to realize that it's out DPS'd by a whole lot of other handguns, and that if you nerf it, it becomes a complete novelty weapon that people use solely for style because the skill cap is enormous compared to, say, bolto/akbolto/viper/furis/lato/lex/etc.

 

The point is it's ammo efficiency, given it's ridiculously high DPS for a couple of bits of metal thrown slower than a baseball. The bullet drop is basically moot seeing as you just adjust instantly. It really doesn't take much skill to use.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Notso

[Thor]

This is excellent, thank you. I'd have this pinned in an instant if I had the permissions to do so. Sadly, I do not. :(

[N7_Scarecrow]

Haha, good post. I like the original post by Dullahan so much. It explains things in an easy to understand manner.

I think we will see a lot of rebalancing among frame/power/weapon from now on. Now that U8 can actually live more than a few days for most players, DE will have some time to take a look at things in comparative term. Well, weekly balance change isn't exactly a bad idea after all. Many players got themselves trapped in a mindset that coop game doesn't need balance or 'this item is good, don't touch it' without looking at bigger picture. Sometime they even use 'perfect imbalance' by Extra credit to justify their stance without watching the whole thing.

Good work, sir.

 

I have to say, whenever someone brings up Extra Credit's 'Perfect Imbalance' video it kind of annoys me.

 

This sums up views on that video pretty well:

http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2012/7/18/a-discussion-of-balance.html

 

But that's PVP and hence not relevant to Warframe! :P

Edited May 28, 2013 by N7_Scarecrow

[Manric]

And we have a lot of one-trick ponies right now.

 

Rhino, Frost, Nyx, Volt, Mag (although she's not so much as a one trick pony so much as she's an all disappointment pony), and Banshee all need a lot of work in that regard.

 

I feel like that's a problem with ability scaling and the like, and no so much that their abilities are weak (although some are).

 

Speaking as Frost, Freeze isn't something you're using all the time, but it can be useful in a pinch to revive someone in a boss fight and it's relevant through all difficulties. Ice Wave stops doing anything when stuff gets too defensive, and so does Avalanche (this is the scaling problem I was talking about). Snow Globe is so godly because it always works, and it works at the same level regardless of difficulty. It simply blocks damage (much like the old Iron Skin), regardless of how much that is.

 

Inb4 Snow Globe now has 800 health at max rank.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Manric

[fishworshipper]

Balancing is a highly sensitive Porgess and isn't as easy as some of you think! +1 for OP

And complaining about Rhinos Ironskin? Are you serious? Because you can't "stomp the house" with that, in my eyes totally ridiculous invulnerability, like before? And now everyones using Frost, as said, as the maintank, because of his 3 skill... What if they change, that neither bullets could pass the globe in AND out? Then everyone starts complaining about how "useless" Frost gets and so on...

And regarding to Trinity and her Link: The way it works is just fine! It has decent duration and Trinity dies extremely quick when it wards off and she cant back it up in time! think about that! Frost and Rhino got their 150 Armor, Trinity has just 10!

Except Trinity has infinite Godmode-That-Automatically-Kills-Enemies-For-You whereas Rhino and Frost have energy reserves that might run out eventually.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I wouldn't say that the Kunai's skill cap is particularly high, but it's true that I don't think it really needs a nerf. Dual Vipers and Bronco do way more damage.

Well, compare the skill cap of the kunai to the lex. Lex is pinpoint accurate doomcannon that is basically the best sniper weapon in the game. It's literally point and shoot, with the bullet being hitscan. Kunai is a slow moving projectile that's affected by drop over distance, requiring you to arc your shots to hit anything at mid-long range. Lex just requires you to have a steady hand and good reflexes. Kunai requires all that and the ability to effectively calculate drop over distance and anticipate your target's movements.

 

 

The point is it's ammo efficiency, given it's ridiculously high DPS for a couple of bits of metal thrown slower than a baseball. The bullet drop is basically moot seeing as you just adjust instantly. It really doesn't take much skill to use.

If we're nerfing things on ammo efficiency, Lato, Lex, and Kraken all need to be nerfed into the ground. If we're nerfing things on plausibility, all the melee weapons and everything that isn't a gun should be nerfed into the ground. If we're nerfing things on "oh it doesn't really take that much skill to use", then all the guns that are even easier to use should get nerfed too.

Really, this is exactly my point. The guys who consistently call for nerfs almost never know what makes something OP or not. They just look at a single weapon in isolation and go by what amounts to a gut instinct.

[Kiteless]

I have to say, whenever some brings up Extra Credit's 'Perfect Imbalance' video it kind of annoys me.

 

This sums up views on that video pretty well:

http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2012/7/18/a-discussion-of-balance.html

 

But that's PVP and hence not relevant to Warframe! :P

 Yep, as much as I love extra credits, I really hate the 'Perfect Imbalance" video, since people try to use it to justify everything.

When it comes to discussions about creating balance, you really can't find a better starting point than Sirlin.

[neKroMancer]

These arguments would ring true if the guys who actually called for nerfs had any idea what makes a given weapon overpowered or not.But they don't. Not on BSN, not here. The kunai is a perfect example here. People say "ZOMG OP" without realizing that it has one of the highest skill caps in the game, what with being a slow projectile (quite possibly the slowest, maybe after the glaive) that's affected by drop. Then they fail to realize that it's out DPS'd by a whole lot of other handguns, and that if you nerf it, it becomes a complete novelty weapon that people use solely for style because the skill cap is enormous compared to, say, bolto/akbolto/viper/furis/lato/lex/etc.

If you're referring to my Kunai topic, I have yet see a good counter argument.

Some claim that Lex fully mod can reload/fire faster than Kunai.

Some claim that Lato vandal fully mod is better than Kunai.

Some claim that dual viper is better than Kunai.

Some claim that dual Bronco is better than Kunai.(How long that thing take to reload?)

Some claim that it can't crit therefore it suck. Unable to compete in endgame. (Grakata must be an awesome weapon by this statement, unfortunately it requires lots of mod to shine.)

Granted Dual viper could outDPS Kunai. The problem is: How long can you use it in one mission before run out of ammo? Currently my Kunai relies on 100% damage and headshot deals 180 damage per pop, enough to OHK a mook in Ceres. Two if I throw at general direction. Granted, there is some distance and projectile drop involved but it's easy to compensate after a game or two.

The Forma may be able to make all weapon awesome but it doesn't change the basic stat. If the one weapon's basic stat is superior than other weapons then it'll be even more powerful when modified.

If you're referring to BSN, the biggest controversy thus far in ME3MP is the infiltrator/Krysae nerf war. I think the nerf is justified in both cases.

[ArsVampyre]

Nerfing exists because balancing through buffs is more difficult.  Nerfing is bad because it reduces player choice, and therefore player enjoyment.

[Kiteless]

Nerfing exists because balancing through buffs is more difficult.  Nerfing is bad because it reduces player choice, and therefore player enjoyment.

 

Did you even read the first post?

 

If something is overpowered to the point of trivializing other options, by nerfing the thing that is so egregiously overpowered, player choice is expanded, and nothing of value is lost.

[3XT3RM1NATUS]

Lol, people from BSN are here. 

 

Consider your community rotten, DE.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

If you're referring to my Kunai topic, I have yet see a good counter argument.

I'm referring to every post that doesn't understand the difference between a balanced weapon and an OP one, nor what makes a weapon balanced versus one that's OP. The various kunai threads on these boards are good examples of this, yes, but they're just an example.

 

Granted Dual viper could outDPS Kunai. The problem is: How long can you use it in one mission before run out of ammo? Currently my Kunai relies on 100% damage and headshot deals 180 damage per pop, enough to OHK a mook in Ceres. Two if I throw at general direction. Granted, there is some distance and projectile drop involved but it's easy to compensate after a game or two.

Case in point: None of what you said is OP, considering the skills it takes to pull off effectively. Yes it's "easy" for you, but compare it to the lex, which is point and shoot (and also not OP). A weapon that can one hit kill high level mooks with headshots and has good ammo efficiency is not inherently OP, otherwise the Latron would be king of OP, Lex would be its queen, and Hek would be the prince.

You know what was OP? Rhino skin being able to last for thirty seconds and being able to be cast repeatedly in a short window once those thirty seconds were up. Or Nyx being able to chain chaos so enemies couldn't do anything other than kill each other forever. But a weapon that takes skill to master and which can kill some enemies with a headshot isn't OP in the least.

If something is overpowered to the point of trivializing other options, by nerfing the thing that is so egregiously overpowered, player choice is expanded, and nothing of value is lost.

Yes. But that's a premise that is true a lot less often than the people who ask for nerfs say it is.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Notso]

If we're nerfing things on ammo efficiency, Lato, Lex, and Kraken all need to be nerfed into the ground. If we're nerfing things on plausibility, all the melee weapons and everything that isn't a gun should be nerfed into the ground. If we're nerfing things on "oh it doesn't really take that much skill to use", then all the guns that are even easier to use should get nerfed too.

Really, this is exactly my point. The guys who consistently call for nerfs almost never know what makes something OP or not. They just look at a single weapon in isolation and go by what amounts to a gut instinct.

 

Fortunately whether or not I'm a moron who can't work out if something is OP or not is determined by more than your own opinion on whether something is overpowered.

 

You say the Lex and the Kraken need to be nerfed into the ground based on what I posted, but all that suggests is that you simply didn't read my post. And then later you cite the Lex as a gun which requires less skill than the Kunai to be equally effective with. 

 

I clearly will not sway your opinion and you will certainly not sway mine. Let's leave at that, 'eh old chap?

[Ashnal]

I wholeheartedly agree with your post. There's one thing I would like to say about it though.

 

Ideally, the players you target your game at are the kind that play to make meaningful decisions and to test their skills. Such has been the way of gaming since it began. But more recently, permanent progression and reward unlocks were added to gaming. Now there are players who play solely for that feeling they get when they receive a reward. For them, fun is no longer about making decisions or becoming skilled at something, it's now all about getting that special thing that is just out of grasp. In order to get what they desire they must optimize and find the quickest path to their reward. They naturally gravitate towards the most powerful skills and characters, since the game is no longer about the challenge, but the reward. When the out of balance thing is brought back into balance, the players that are affected cry because it really IS a net loss of fun for them, simply because they now attain rewards slower and with more effort.

 

Such is the problem of playing games for the rewards and not the game itself, or developing a game that has little substance aside from a string of unlocks.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Ashnal

[Ashnal]

Nerfing exists because balancing through buffs is more difficult.  Nerfing is bad because it reduces player choice, and therefore player enjoyment.

I would just like to add that nerfing done properly and combined with buffing in balance actually increases player choice. Ideally the final resting point when balancing is one where players have choices to make, regardless of whether you nerfed or buffed to get there.

[Fjarri]

The main thing is a nerf, which is the best option in straight up numerical/peferential situations. Start at an arbitrary high number and go down; going up cause a lot of problems, like he said.

In situations where such number shifts may disrupt viability and disrupt options, adding content/mechanics to counter can be in order (Like Starcraft 2) and then tweak that to solve the issue, proabbaly a nerf of THAT, instead of what was already there.

DE is not being very nice with their nerfs and releases. It seems haphazard and driven by assumptions and math that if is anything like the game math, a frigin mess.

And I'll tell you now, I think the Forma are going to be replacing the potatoes to "balance" the upgrade system. Yeah right.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Fjarri

[Tetsmeha]

What about burston never getting buffed ever?